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Kamaaluddeen al-Ismail

Is the United States a Christian nation?

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1 hour ago, aflyer said:

Science is science, it is just a methodology to produce knowledge. I agree science says nothing about God, but the worldview that was born with the enlightenment would say God does not exist. I did not mean to infer that science is against any religion because I don't think it is. I think science and the enlightenment are two different things. The later presumes that science is true. I have no problem with science or using it to produce knowledge but there is a fundamental difference between what works and what is true. Science give us results that work but don't tell me its true.

Religion (Christianity, Islam, Judaism) claim what is true via the reveled word of God. What came out of the enlightenment is a world view which claims to know what is true by using the scientific method via observation of the physical world. I would suggest these two things are fundamentally different and are in opposition.

I do not agree that the Bible claims to be  the perfect word of God. Maybe the Quran does. But the Muslim world have not really exoerienced an enlightment like the Christian world has. 

 

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54 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

America may once have been a Christian nation, but it clearly isn't one now.

It depends how you define a Christian nation. I doubt Trump is a Christian but one person cannot change the definition.

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3 hours ago, andres said:

But the Muslim world have not really experienced an enlightenment like the Christian world has. 

Enlightenment in Islamic history corresponds to the very short period of Imam Ali's caliphate.

That is - if you were to look at enlightenment in a godly, not worldly sense.

Read the opinions of non-Muslims on the subject.

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No, the US is not a Christian nation. In fact, most "Christians" in the US are not real Christians in heart, mind, and soul. Most of them are just church-goers going through the motions but have no real love for God, the truth, and righteousness.

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7 hours ago, andres said:

I do not agree that the Bible claims to be  the perfect word of God. Maybe the Quran does.

I talk to a lot of people about the Bible and in all the Christian and religious circles I have been in I have yet to come across someone with your point of view until now. The Christian and even atheists in the west I think would all say the Bible claims to be the revealed perfect word of God see 2 Timothy 3:16. I'm not arguing that it is the word of God (this is not the place for it) but it is a very well accepted that is what it stands for whether that be a true claim or not.

 

7 hours ago, andres said:

But the Muslim world have not really exoerienced an enlightment like the Christian world has. 

I think what you mean to say is But the Muslim world have not really experienced an enlightenment like the Christian western world has. I know a lot of people associate the west with Christianity and yes it used to be a very Christian culture at one time but the west is very much post Christian now. I would suggest the culture changed from Christian to atheist once it embraced what followed from the enlightenment.

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3 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

My comment had nothing to do with Trump. America hasn't been a Christian nation for a long time.

OK. Of course a matter of definition. USA's constitution is not Christian like Iran's is Islamic or Israel's is Jewish. But the great majority americans call themselves Christian and are members of a Christian Churches.

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3 hours ago, aflyer said:

I talk to a lot of people about the Bible and in all the Christian and religious circles I have been in I have yet to come across someone with your point of view until now. The Christian and even atheists in the west I think would all say the Bible claims to be the revealed perfect word of God see 2 Timothy 3:16. I'm not arguing that it is the word of God (this is not the place for it) but it is a very well accepted that is what it stands for whether that be a true claim or not.

I am not convinced that Timothy believed that his letter was the perfect word of God. (according translation he uses the word "inspired"). The New Testament was not yet compiled, but very likely he believed the Old Testament was the perfect word of God and that God created the world in 6 days , 4.000 years before he was born. Lots of Christians like me, do not believe this is so. Some fundamental Christians may not regard us as Christians. 

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3 hours ago, aflyer said:

I think what you mean to say is But the Muslim world have not really experienced an enlightenment like the Christian western world has. I know a lot of people associate the west with Christianity and yes it used to be a very Christian culture at one time but the west is very much post Christian now. I would suggest the culture changed from Christian to atheist once it embraced what followed from the enlightenment.

Atheists believe there is no God. Lots of enlightened scientist and others do. 

Atheists are to be found all over the world. Islamic republic of Iran is no exception. 

Enlightenment in the Muslim world. Is there such concept?

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On 1/26/2017 at 9:07 AM, Kamaaluddeen al-Ismail said:

:salam:

I've had few discussions with Christians and they say that U.S is a Christian nation. So what do Christians on SC say about this? 

Salam,

I disagree for many reasons.

1. Jesus Christ never commanded his followers to make a nation "Christian" but rather to follow/obey Him. Many of Jesus' commands are difficult to follow when getting caught up into nationalism. For example, Jesus clearly commanded his followers to love enemies (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-37) which the USA and many other nations do not obey.

2. There is no such thing as a true Christian nation, though there have been nations that have been ruled by imperfect leaders who identify as Christian. Just because someone identifies as a Christian, that does not mean that he/she obeys Jesus Christ. Some of the worst genocides and cruelties/evils in the world have been committed by leaders who identify as Christian (Hitler is one). :(

The Crusades, the Inquisition, the killing of Native Americans, slavery, and so forth have been led and committed by Christian rulers. :( That shows that there is no such thing as a nation that truly obeys Jesus Christ.

3. Jesus Christ commands his followers to "Do to others as you would have them do to you." - Luke 6:31 (NIV) Horribly, the history of the USA is filled with Americans doing to others what they would not want done to them. Most Americans have no desire to be stolen from, lied to, killed, tortured, and enslaved. Yet, horribly, this is what some Americans who identified/identify as Christians do to other people. :(:(:( in disobedience (whether ignorantly or on purpose) to Jesus Christ.

4. Christians are a part of the global Kingdom of Heaven. In my opinion, it is blasphemy to put a nation before God. God first, nation is after God. That means that if a nation commands laws that go contrary to God, a true Christian will obey God no matter what the nations' aws say, even if that means death or expulsion. As Jesus' disciples said, "Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings!" - Acts 5:29 (N(V)

5. When Jesus Christ returns, that's when there will a true "Christian" nation.

Interestingly, Jesus Christ did not attempt to overthrow the Romans who were occupying his people's nation (Israel/Judea), nor did he try to overthrow Israel's leaders. Instead, he very clearly promised that he would return!!!

Back to the USA, many Christians from Europe founded the USA. However, they did not obey Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors as oneself and to do to others as they would have done to them. For this reason alone, I think it is wrong to label the USA as a "Christian" nation.

Peace and God bless you

 

Edited by Christianlady

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2 hours ago, baqar said:

Did you read my post above?

Sorry I missed that. Have read it now. But I was thinking of scientific enlightening. I know Muslim civilisation around the 8th century was in front with brilliant mathematicians and scribes, but somehow it stagnated. Were there any in later periods? 

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6 hours ago, ChristianVisitor said:

No, the US is not a Christian nation. In fact, most "Christians" in the US are not real Christians in heart, mind, and soul. Most of them are just church-goers going through the motions but have no real love for God, the truth, and righteousness.

So what would you call them, if not "Christian"?

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21 minutes ago, andres said:

So what would you call them, if not "Christian"?

Fake Christians who profess Jesus with their lips but their hearts are from him and his righteousness. Jesus talked about these types of people in Matthew 7:21-23. 

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59 minutes ago, ChristianVisitor said:

Fake Christians who profess Jesus with their lips but their hearts are from him and his righteousness. Jesus talked about these types of people in Matthew 7:21-23. 

So they are a sort of Christians. Fake ones. There are many sort of Christians. In my definition they all are included in the category "Christians". Therefore I regard USA as a Christian nation.

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3 hours ago, andres said:

So they are a sort of Christians. Fake ones. There are many sort of Christians. In my definition they all are included in the category "Christians". Therefore I regard USA as a Christian nation.

Many Christians would perhaps disagree with you. (Christianlady and ChristianVisitor above..)

So, is the United States a Christian nation? No. Not in its philosophy, or in what it loves, or in what it does. Despite its Judeo-Christian roots and heritage, and the beliefs of some of its founders, the United States today is a nation that follows other gods, and lives a lifestyle that is not compatible with Christianity. (Source)

Furthermore, would you agree that it's Christ-like to bomb Muslim countries? Intervene in their affairs? Civilians are killed! Not only that, but they appoint puppet regimes...

MTM2NjQzODc3MTg1ODU3MTE5.jpg

 

Edited by Kamaaluddeen al-Ismail

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3 hours ago, andres said:

So they are a sort of Christians. Fake ones. There are many sort of Christians. In my definition they all are included in the category "Christians". Therefore I regard USA as a Christian nation.

Well my friend you are about as misinformed as someone that calls someone who is Arab a Muslim just because of his race even though he never prays, drinks alcohol, and speaks blasphemies about the Koran. Believe what you want but the term Christian has already defined and is well agreed upon as being follower of Christ based on the New Testament scriptures. As @Christianlady and others have described, the US is anything but Christian.

1John 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 
1John 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I rest my case. Peace to you.

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50 minutes ago, Kamaaluddeen al-Ismail said:

Many Christians would perhaps disagree with you. (Christianlady and ChristianVisitor above..)

Furthermore, would you agree that it's Christ-like to bomb Muslim countries? Intervene in their affairs? Civilians are killed! Not only that, but they appoint puppet regimes...

 

There is no precise definition what is a Christian nation. 

If abstaining from war defines a Christian or Muslim nation, than USA is not a Christian nation. And Iran is not a Muslim 

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1 hour ago, andres said:

There is no precise definition what is a Christian nation. 

If abstaining from war defines a Christian or Muslim nation, than USA is not a Christian nation. And Iran is not a Muslim 

Weren't you the one who said awhile back that homosexual sex is not a sin according to the Bible?

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If all you had was big rubber stamps and a vintage view of the world, NA would get stamped Christian, Israel would get stamped Jew, The surrounding countries of Israel would get stamped as Muslim, Russia was once stamped as atheist, from there on stamp them all "other"

Christians know NA is no longer Christian. Israel has a really big mosque in the middle, Russia has grand churches,

50% of the Syrians brought to Canada were secular, (going on 40,000) meaning less than 50% were Muslim. Is Syria not considered a Muslim country? Should it be? Once you lose 50% the labels start to wear off. 

For the sake of war NA is christian and the Middle East is Muslim.

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1 hour ago, ChristianVisitor said:

Weren't you the one who said awhile back that homosexual sex is not a sin according to the Bible?

Not Quite. Homosexuality is (one of many) sins of which the Old Testament demands stoning to death. In the New Testament Pauls opinion is that homosexuals do not enter heaven. Personally I do not believe he is right. 

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3 hours ago, andres said:

And Iran is not a Muslim 

When did Iran go into war on its own?

The war with Iraq in the 1980's was initiated by Saddam.

Iran fought only in self-defence.

Iran has never initiated hostilities.

And by the way, Iran's inclusion in the group of 7 was completely unjustified.

Try reading my opening post in  

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235046416-analyzing-the-us-mind-why-these-7-not-others/

Cheers

 

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2 hours ago, baqar said:

When did Iran go into war on its own?

The war with Iraq in the 1980's was initiated by Saddam.

Iran fought only in self-defence.

Iran has never initiated hostilities.

And by the way, Iran's inclusion in the group of 7 was completely unjustified.

Try reading my opening post in  

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235046416-analyzing-the-us-mind-why-these-7-not-others/

Cheers

 

The chosen group of 7 is indeed strange. We can all understand why Saudi Arabia is missing. I agree it is strange Iran was chosen. Trump is a joke. 

As for fighting abroad. Iran is participating in the Syrian civil war. Supporting a dictator for political reasons. 

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1 hour ago, andres said:

As for fighting abroad. Iran is participating in the Syrian civil war. Supporting a dictator for political reasons. 

Yes, you are right.

Iran is fighting in Iran seemingly for a political dictator.

However, there are reasons well beyond that and need to be understood in the geo-political and socio-religious context of the ME

Anyway, I will not be defending Iran for its role but what irked me is that you seem to have a beef against Iran, which I find quite unjustified.

There are many countries in the ME fighting wars. Yet you rarely, if ever, mention them. 

A big coalition of countries led by Saudi Arabia is fighting poverty-stricken Yemen, which no sane person can defend.

In the coalition are a whole swag of wealthy  nations - Qatar, Emirates and others such as Jordan.

And the coalition which is in morally the wrong, if not politically, because Yemen is a powerless country, is being fully supported by the US and its allies.

 

 

 

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