humanbeing101

If energy is eternal is God needed?

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5 minutes ago, humanbeing101 said:

So essentially God and energy are equally eternally? Therefore wouldn't that mean God isn't the first cause of everything.

Energy is not eternal because that would contradict God's existence. Energy was created by no one else but God.

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3 minutes ago, Hassan Y said:

Energy is not eternal because that would contradict God's existence. Energy was created by no one else but God.

Yes but according to the law of conservation of energy, energy cannot be created or destroyed. Thus it had to of always existed and therefore it is paradoxical that God created it. That is the problem I am talking about. 

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2 minutes ago, humanbeing101 said:

Yes but according to the law of conservation of energy, energy cannot be created or destroyed. Thus it had to of always existed and therefore it is paradoxical that God created it. That is the problem I am talking about. 

We already discussed this in this topic, I think it's on the first page. I'll explain it again though. 

In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system cannot change—it is said to be conserved over time. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed, but can change form; for instance, chemical energy can be converted to kinetic energy.

As you can see above, it clearly states 'isolated system'. Our universe is an isolated system, so therefore energy cannot be created nor destroyed ONLY in our universe. Our universe is 13.8 billion years old, therefore energy from our human knowledge has only existed for 13.8 billion years. In other words, energy is not eternal.

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Just now, Hassan Y said:

We already discussed this in this topic, I think it's on the first page. I'll explain it again though. 

In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system cannot change—it is said to be conserved over time. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed, but can change form; for instance, chemical energy can be converted to kinetic energy.

As you can see above, it clearly states 'isolated system'. Our universe is an isolated system, so therefore energy cannot be created nor destroyed ONLY in our universe. Our universe is 13.8 billion years old, therefore energy from our human knowledge has only existed for 13.8 billion years. In other words, energy is not eternal.

You're assuming our universe is a bubble and it is isolated. It is not proven scientifically that is it. The vacuum of space hasn't been proven to be self-contained or isolated. 

Secondly you are assuming our there is something outside of our universe.

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24 minutes ago, humanbeing101 said:

So essentially God and energy are equally eternally? Therefore wouldn't that mean God isn't the first cause of everything.

No because energy came into existence a finite time ago.  My point was in answer to your question that 'IF energy is eternal, does that mean we dont need God?'

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4 minutes ago, humanbeing101 said:

You're assuming our universe is a bubble and it is isolated. It is not proven scientifically that is it. The vacuum of space hasn't been proven to be self-contained or isolated. 

Secondly you are assuming our there is something outside of our universe.

I'm not assuming anything, you're the one that is saying energy is eternal when that logically can't be true because not only would that contradict God's existence, but there is no scientific evidence of such energy existing outside our universe. Our universe is indeed an isolated system, and it is scientifically proven by every physicist. I don't know what is outside our universe or if anything exists other than the universe, but what we do know is our universe only existed for 13.8 billion years. Energy started right after the Big Bang, which means energy can only be 13.8 billion years old.

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1 minute ago, Hassan Y said:

I'm not assuming anything, you're the one that is saying energy is eternal when that logically can't be true because not only would that contradict God's existence, but there is no scientific evidence of such energy existing outside our universe. Our universe is indeed an isolated system, and it is scientifically proven by every physicist. I don't know what is outside our universe or if anything exists other than the universe, but what we do know is our universe only existed for 13.8 billion years. Energy started right after the Big Bang, which means energy can only be 13.8 billion years old.

Logic and science don't go hand in hand. Quantum mechanics is completely illogical to us and yet we can still observe it using the LHC. For example the same sub-atomic particle being at two places at once is clearly illogical but it is a scientific reality and has been tested. 

Secondly you are strawmaning here. I'm not talking about outside of the universe, for the simple fact no proof exists that there is an "outside of the universe". It's an assumption not a fact.

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11 minutes ago, .InshAllah. said:

No because energy came into existence a finite time ago.  My point was in answer to your question that 'IF energy is eternal, does that mean we dont need God?'

That doesn't make sense. You just agreed energy cannot be destroyed or created, therefore it had to of always existed. Therefore time is irrelevant. Time began to exist but energy and time are seperate.

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1 minute ago, humanbeing101 said:

Logic and science don't go hand in hand. Quantum mechanics is completely illogical to us and yet we can still observe it using the LHC. For example the same sub-atomic particle being at two places at once is clearly illogical but it is a scientific reality and has been tested. 

Secondly you are strawmaning here. I'm not talking about outside of the universe, for the simple fact no proof exists that there is an "outside of the universe". It's an assumption not a fact.

By saying there is no proof of anything outside the universe, you are limiting God.

Here are some facts.

1. The universe is the result of cause and effect. 

2. Therefore our universe is dependant on a predecessor

If our universe was created by something, what was it? We don't know, But we do know that God is the predecessor of all things. Since God is the first cause of everything, than logically speaking he is 'outside' the universe. Our universe is a closed system, therefore energy is eternal in the universe but not outside of it. If Energy is eternal in and outside the universe than that would logically contradict God's existence. 

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14 minutes ago, humanbeing101 said:

That doesn't make sense. You just agreed energy cannot be destroyed or created, therefore it had to of always existed. Therefore time is irrelevant. Time began to exist but energy and time are seperate.

The law of conservation of energy is a physical law, not a logical truth.  I cannot bend the current laws of physics, and had they been different, I wouldnt have been able to bend those laws either.  But there is zero reason to think that God is unable to change these physical laws.  God can create energy and destroy energy.  If you think thats not true, then where is the scientific evidence that its not true?  There isnt any because this isnt a scientific question, its a philosophical one!  Any argument about the powers of God cannot be settled by science because its outside the scope of science.

 

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6 hours ago, humanbeing101 said:

So essentially God and energy are equally eternally? Therefore wouldn't that mean God isn't the first cause of everything.

Questions for you:

1. Does God also "needs" energy to act? As per our definition, ability to do work is called energy.

2. In that case What would be the source of energy? That would means God is in second place & energy on first.

3. If energy is the ability to work, does energy itself do work or is it "a thing" which do work by consuming energy?

There is another thing for which we have very little information and we cannot prove its existence as well as nature scientifically i.e., Ruh. We know that Ruh is the "amr e Rabbi" (command of God).

Some times I feel that it is the ruh without which we remain unable to consume energy. The One who has created life & death, must be the knower & originator of energy, otherwise there would be no death even in case where life spontaneously originated itself.

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10 hours ago, Hassan Y said:

Here are some facts.

1. The universe is the result of cause and effect. 

The universe is neither a cause nor an effect. It consists of all causes and effects. 
It is the collection of all physical things. 
 

 

10 hours ago, Hassan Y said:

2. Therefore our universe is dependant on a predecessor

What does that mean? Can you explain?

As far as I can tell the Big Bang is an event that happened to matter already in existence. ( If you Big Bang 'nothing'....nothing happens.)

The Big Bang is the point where ' this universe' came into existence, not the point where 'matter' began to exist.  

 

 

10 hours ago, Hassan Y said:

 But we do know that God is the predecessor of all things.

How would you know that? Are you confusing knowledge with belief?  

Why must a first cause be a God, why must it be intelligent?

wslm.

*

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41 minutes ago, Quisant said:

The universe is neither a cause nor an effect. It consists of all causes and effects. 
It is the collection of all physical things. 
 

 

What does that mean? Can you explain?

As far as I can tell the Big Bang is an event that happened to matter already in existence. ( If you Big Bang 'nothing'....nothing happens.)

The Big Bang is the point where ' this universe' came into existence, not the point where 'matter' began to exist.  

 

 

How would you know that? Are you confusing knowledge with belief?  

Why must a first cause be a God, why must it be intelligent?

wslm.

*

Quisant we talked about this on many previous discussions in the past...

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6 hours ago, Hassan Y said:

Quisant we talked about this on many previous discussions in the past...

True, we have agreed to disagree a couple of times but the questions remain unanswered...

:)

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4 hours ago, Quisant said:

True, we have agreed to disagree a couple of times but the questions remain unanswered...

:)

Ok I'm just curious and I want to ask you these questions.

What would make you believe in God? 

Do you prefer a reality without a God and heaven/hell or do you prefer a reality where God and heaven/hell does exist?

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delete

Edited by wmehar2
redundant message, glitch

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On 1/19/2017 at 3:03 PM, humanbeing101 said:

Yes but according to the law of conservation of energy, energy cannot be created or destroyed. Thus it had to of always existed and therefore it is paradoxical that God created it. That is the problem I am talking about. 

Energy is irrelevant.  Life is the anomaly that transcends Stars, novas, galaxies working their course in their cyclical pattern of energy transfer.

Life is not infinite nor is it a form of Energy.  Life takes things that do not exist in an imaginary realm, and materializes them or rather shapes them into reality.

No Energy, no inanimate or life lacking object can emulate that.   Life is your answer, God is your reason.

As I said before, energy could be or have been infinitely running its course forming and destroying galaxies about, one explosion after another, or starting from the Beginning.  But the existence of life is the only thing that energy on its own cannot do.

Perhaps God is in all forms of Energy using them as an extension of "His" limbs, I won't go into a metaphysical/philosophical debates here.  Questioning the necessity of God however,  is asinine when considering the anomaly of the existence of man.

The universe and energies in it, and other objects which are stuck in their course until impacted by another traversing object have no choice in what they do, absolutely no say.

Humans and things possessing life, do.  We can (although limited) can shape, change the course of objects in the universe if we wanted to launch a projectile to a far away planet and detonate some incredible nuclear force with technology, we can do it.  Don't know what the future will bring, but we will likely develop technology to do crazy things.

Our very existence violates the natural order of the Universe and it's course and all things contained within it, we are anomalies.  God is your only explanation.

Edited by wmehar2

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11 hours ago, Hassan Y said:

Ok I'm just curious and I want to ask you these questions.

What would make you believe in God? 

Do you prefer a reality without a God and heaven/hell or do you prefer a reality where God and heaven/hell does exist?

I am not anti-religious. I am anti-clerical.

I prefer my 'belief' to be something private/personal between me and God, I prefer my belief untainted by the 'teaching' of others.

Goodness is about what you do. Not what you pray to.

wslm

*
 

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On 1/19/2017 at 4:23 AM, hayaah said:

Energy was needed to start off the big bang actually....  and since when did I say the big bang came before Allah? Lol. 

That is my point (or actually Islam's point) because you need energy to cause the Big Bang yet they say it happened due to randomness (quantum fluctuations the term they use).

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12 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Energy is irrelevant.  Life is the anomaly that transcends Stars, novas, galaxies working their course in their cyclical pattern of energy transfer.

Life is not infinite nor is it a form of Energy.  Life takes things that do not exist in an imaginary realm, and materializes them or rather shapes them into reality.

No Energy, no inanimate or life lacking object can emulate that.   Life is your answer, God is your reason.

As I said before, energy could be or have been infinitely running its course forming and destroying galaxies about, one explosion after another, or starting from the Beginning.  But the existence of life is the only thing that energy on its own cannot do.

Perhaps God is in all forms of Energy using them as an extension of "His" limbs, I won't go into a metaphysical/philosophical debates here.  Questioning the necessity of God however,  is asinine when considering the anomaly of the existence of man.

The universe and energies in it, and other objects which are stuck in their course until impacted by another traversing object have no choice in what they do, absolutely no say.

Humans and things possessing life, do.  We can (although limited) can shape, change the course of objects in the universe if we wanted to launch a projectile to a far away planet and detonate some incredible nuclear force with technology, we can do it.  Don't know what the future will bring, but we will likely develop technology to do crazy things.

Our very existence violates the natural order of the Universe and it's course and all things contained within it, we are anomalies.  God is your only explanation.

Brother with all due respect I didn't state "energy is infinite" but energy is eternal, there is a difference. 

You're question is a philosophically based one. 

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1 hour ago, humanbeing101 said:

Brother with all due respect I didn't state "energy is infinite" but energy is eternal, there is a difference. 

You're question is a philosophically based one. 

Eternal or infinite ,   both apply in my point.

God is necessary to explain our existence and the intelligent design of our blue prints and the rules the universe abides by.

Random occurrence Is not a scientific explanation .   Randomness is absurdity ,  a crutch to use when one can't explain something . 

God is the rational explanation .  at least ,  from my perspective .

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1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

Eternal or infinite ,   both apply in my point.

God is necessary to explain our existence and the intelligent design of our blue prints and the rules the universe abides by.

Random occurrence Is not a scientific explanation .   Randomness is absurdity ,  a crutch to use when one can't explain something . 

God is the rational explanation .  at least ,  from my perspective .

Brother saying because X and Y cannot be, therefore it must be Z is not logical. You're assuming that is the only possiblity left. There may be other possiblities that haven't been fathomed.

Secondly maths and science don't always go hand in hand.

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57 minutes ago, humanbeing101 said:

Brother saying because X and Y cannot be, therefore it must be Z is not logical. You're assuming that is the only possiblity left. There may be other possiblities that haven't been fathomed.

Secondly maths and science don't always go hand in hand.

Your X and Y wasn't logical to begin with.  Randomness is not logic.  Intelligent creator, the Z in this argument, has a logical premise.  But .... you mention "possibilities that haven't been fathomed".  

IF X and Y are randomness, and I'm saying Randomness is not a possibility, then that means it is not random.  Which means planned.  If God isn't the only other alternative, then good luck finding those un-fathomed possibilities.

If so, then tell me a more logical A, B, C since X and Y already cannot be.  Saying they're not fathomed yet, just pushes the point that the question behind the OP "If Energy is Eternal, Is God needed?"  has no basis in which to be argued.

First you need to define "God", which is already unfathomable.  So looks like you have a not fathomed possibility to answer your question, already, which is God must be necessary to exist.

If you don't have another logical argument beside X & Y, again, find me one.  The possibility that a planet like Earth being created in every big bang has already been calculated to being some 10^-278 plus some digits (try to let that number sink in).   The possibility that random atoms clashing in super heat forming some life thing randomly  IS ZERO.

There is only one possible explanation, there is no other possibility that hasn't been fathomed yet.

" Assume that the ribozyme is 300 nucleotides long, and that at each position there could be any of four nucleotides present. The chances of that ribozyme assembling are then 4^-300,  a number so large that it could not possibly happen by chance even once in 13 billion years, the age of the universe. "

Science also postulates (and math) that eternity, (which is an expression of infinite time) is an Absurd concept.  Infinity does not exist in the real world/universe.  Time seems to be the only non-finite dimension that humans perceive and attempt measure because we actually can't measure it right and proper, it's a relative measure.

Math and Science are one in the same thing, to say otherwise is .... none-sense.  Physics, Chemistry, Quantum Theory are all branches of Mathematics and governed by Mathematical Axioms.

 

Creation/humans/animals have energy and consume things to have energy so that we can move and do things.  We manipulate energy.  Energy didn't create the manipulator, not by randomness.

Asteroids, Planets, Stars, are all confined to their course and laws.  We are not as bound to laws as they are.  Which  means we are more than just energy aren't we?  We extend beyond energy and matter.  We have imaginations which don't even exist, and we can even manipulate energy to manifest those non-existing images!  If that exists in us, then of course it can exist and must exist in an Intelligent Creator.

God created us in his "image" according to the Hadith and a previous book of Allah SWT.

Edited by wmehar2

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@wmehar2

Quote

Your X and Y wasn't logical to begin with.  Randomness is not logic.  Intelligent creator, the Z in this argument, has a logical premise.  But .... you mention "possibilities that haven't been fathomed".  

Who mentioned anything about randomness? Can you quote me? 

Quote

First you need to define "God", which is already unfathomable.  So looks like you have a not fathomed possibility to answer your question, already, which is God must be necessary to exist.

If energy is eternal, neither being created or destroyed. Then surely it isn't needed to have God. 

Quote

If you don't have another logical argument beside X & Y, again, find me one.  The possibility that a planet like Earth being created in every big bang has already been calculated to being some 10^-278 plus some digits (try to let that number sink in).   The possibility that random atoms clashing in super heat forming some life thing randomly  IS ZERO.

You have a source to back that statement up? 

Quote

Math and Science are one in the same thing, to say otherwise is .... none-sense.  Physics, Chemistry, Quantum Theory are all branches of Mathematics and governed by Mathematical Axioms.

That's factually not true. Maths and Science don't always go hand in hand. For example maths claims the likelihood of aliens being a high possiblity, yet science hasn't discovered any yet. Mathematics also have the concept of infinity, science doesn't. 

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1 minute ago, humanbeing101 said:

@wmehar2

Who mentioned anything about randomness? Can you quote me? 

If energy is eternal, neither being created or destroyed. Then surely it isn't needed to have God. 

You have a source to back that statement up? 

That's factually not true. Maths and Science don't always go hand in hand. For example maths claims the likelihood of aliens being a high possiblity, yet science hasn't discovered any yet. Mathematics also have the concept of infinity, science doesn't. 

If you're saying that God's existence is not necessary since "energy is eternal" then you're implying the  existence of human beings were a random mishap of clashing forces. 

If there was a Big Bang, and we don't know what there was before then, how do you know  energy can't be created nor destroyed?  That's an assumption.   A law that's perceived by Humans, and humans aren't the perfect perceiving entities.

Sorry not 10^-278 but still an impossibly small number:

"The reader of the essay entitled Is There A God (What is the Chance the World is the Result of Chance?) may be interested in knowing some hard numbers with regard to the probability that the universe occurred randomly (i.e. no conscious creator involved). Oxford University Professor of Mathematics John Lennox quotes renowned Oxford University mathematical physicist Roger Penrose:

“Try to imagine phase space… of the entire universe. Each point in this phase space represents a different possible way that the universe might have started off. We are to picture the Creator, armed with a ‘pin’ — which is to be placed at some point in phase space… Each different positioning of the pin provides a different universe. Now the accuracy that is needed for the Creator’s aim depends on the entropy of the universe that is thereby created. It would be relatively ‘easy’ to produce a high entropy universe, since then there would be a large volume of the phase space available for the pin to hit. But in order to start off the universe in a state of low entropy — so that there will indeed be a second law of thermodynamics — the Creator must aim for a much tinier volume of the phase space. How tiny would this region be, in order that a universe closely resembling the one in which we actually live would be the result?”

Lennox goes on to cite Penrose’s answer:

“His calculations lead him to the remarkable conclusion that the ‘Creator’s aim’ must have been accurate to 1 part in 10 to the power of 10 to the power or 123, that is 1 followed by 10 to the 123rd power zeros.”

As Penrose puts it, that is a “number which it would be impossible to write out in the usual decimal way, because even if you were able to put a zero on every particle in the universe, there would not even be enough particles to do the job.”"

 

Infinite as a concept in math doesn't mean it's implied that it exists.  When you're measuring limit breaking dimensions such as speed, force, and a function iterating through time, one can use "infinity" to evaluate what happens when a limit approaches infinity.  which is EVERYWHERE in Physics, String Theory, and other Scientific modes.

Also, Math doesn't take away the fact Science needs to use MATH to find those Aliens.

 

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