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OP: " If energy is unlimited does that mean we don't need God in the equation?"

This thread is like the OP  was the bang, and then all the energy was spread out.

If this is going to continue going further and further away from the OP, do we need the OPoster in the equation? :D

Edited by Ozzy

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6 hours ago, humanbeing101 said:

If energy is unlimited does that mean we don't need God in the equation? 

Before life and humans, was just energy in its various forms and shapes in their patterns working their course, perhaps infinitely, perhaps not.

Humans weren't a mistake of those energies randomly clashing and all of a sudden there was a man or a squiggle of life.  Answer is Obvious.

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We define energy as the ability to do work. Ability of what? This relates energy to the existence of something at least and that something is non-eternal. 

If energy is understood as "eternal", how it got mass & speed? And are we sure that there is nothing faster than the square of the speed of light? 

In the state of nothingness, what would be the role of energy?

Energy is a building block of creation according to our understanding of energy. In this physical world, everything need energy to do any sort of work. Without energy there will be nothing which occupy space & has mass. Because occupying space is a work.

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14 hours ago, humanbeing101 said:

If energy is unlimited does that mean we don't need God in the equation? 

Energy is not eternal because it changes into different forms and anything that changes into different forms must have come out of a change that is from being nothing to something. For maintaining its eternity energy must had to have all the Godly qualities and complete in all sense, in other words, you are calling God as energy. Why are you twisting you head with these names when you can believe in God and you know that Energy is creation which is not eternal, so what is the point of using if ???????

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10 hours ago, TheLittleServant said:

That is contradicting the Big Bang Theory which states all "energy" was created via the Big Bang. There was nothing in the Universe that existed before this. Allah is outside the boundaries and limitations of this Universe (which He created), thus Allah existed "before" the Big Bang (since He caused it).

Energy was needed to start off the big bang actually....  and since when did I say the big bang came before Allah? Lol. 

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17 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

There is two possibility. Either matters and energies were produced and created by themselves or an unlimited supreme being beyond human capacity and comprehension created these.

According to the modern science findings and facts we know no new energy or matter can be created or produced by itself. This is called 'Law of conservation of matters and energy'. They can only change form. but no new matter or energy can be produced by itself. It is established fact in Physics.

So you have no option but admit that an unlimited supreme being with no beginning and no end has created all this matters and energy. Simple and Clear.

Yes but the only thing we know exists is our universe and nothing outside of it. Secondly that is exactly what I was referring to the 'Law of conservation...', I mean it clearly shows energy cannot be destroyed or newly created, thus it must be eternal.

Secondly that means God could not of created it because the energy cannot be created. 

Thirdly you are negating string theory. String theory tells us there is 11 hyper-dimensional out there that cannot be seen. 

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17 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

Total amount of energy in the universe is exactly zero. This is a direct consequence of the first law of thermodynamics.

 

Special theory of relativity states that energy and mass are interchangeable. First law of thermodynamics states that energy of a closed system cannot be created or destroyed. However the vacuum behaves like a "bubbling pool" which constantly creates and annihilates pairs of particles and anti-particles.  This bubbling is called quantum energy fluctuation. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle predicts that during the inflationary phase of the universe there were quantum fluctuations, which magnified to cosmic scale.

 

To sum up, total amount of energy in the universe does not change with time and it’s still zero. What is changing with time is just the entropy (energy dispersal) of the universe, which is still increasing.

 

So what are you exactly saying here? There are are bubbles? Namely the multiverse? 

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1 minute ago, humanbeing101 said:

Yes but the only thing we know exists is our universe and nothing outside of it.

How can you say that? When we know that universe has a beginning. It sounds atheistic to me, are you trying to say that universe originated spontaneously out of nothing? 

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Just now, Engineer73 said:

How can you say that? When we know that universe has a beginning. It sounds atheistic to me, are you trying to say that universe originated spontaneously out of nothing? 

No the point is the big bang caused all our stars and planets to form etc... However prior to that it was a vacuum of space which on a quantum level still has energy. 

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4 minutes ago, humanbeing101 said:

mean it clearly shows energy cannot be destroyed or newly created, thus it must be eternal.

WE cannot destroy energy because it changes forms. The One who has created it & made it our necissity to do work, certainly able to do that. Similarly, see the state of singularity from which universe expanded. What caused expansion & what caused it to be in the state of singularity?

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1 minute ago, Engineer73 said:

WE cannot destroy energy because it changes forms. The One who has created it & made it our necissity to do work, certainly able to do that. Similarly, see the state of singularity from which universe expanded. What caused expansion & what caused it to be in the state of singularity?

No one knows. 

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18 minutes ago, humanbeing101 said:

mean it clearly shows energy cannot be destroyed or newly created, thus it must be eternal.

WE cannot destroy energy because it changes forms. The One who has created it & made it our necissity to do work, certainly able to do that. Similarly, see the state of singularity from which universe expanded. What caused expansion & what caused it to be in the state of singularity?

7 minutes ago, humanbeing101 said:

No one knows. 

Ok, read the big crunch & big bounce hypotheses and read the following verse:

Surah Al-Anbiya, Verse 104:

يَوْمَ نَطْوِي السَّمَاءَ كَطَيِّ السِّجِلِّ لِلْكُتُبِ كَمَا بَدَأْنَا أَوَّلَ خَلْقٍ نُّعِيدُهُ وَعْدًا عَلَيْنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا فَاعِلِينَ

On the day when We will roll up heaven like the rolling up of the scroll for writings, as We originated the first creation, (so) We shall reproduce it; a promise (binding on Us); surely We will bring it about.

(English - Shakir)

The One who has caused the expansion of Universe, is Able to roll it back & turn it into nothing.

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10 minutes ago, Aladin from Azra tribe said:

Please, brothers, think "what is energy?" Because you're saying that Allah swt created (khaleqa) it and it has to be something real (haqq). If it is something real it has the "name" ('ism) He gave to it.

I think it is some sort of "Sultan". It is mentioned in different styles and in different places and with different names. Different names may be because of different forms. 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

WE cannot destroy energy because it changes forms. The One who has created it & made it our necissity to do work, certainly able to do that. Similarly, see the state of singularity from which universe expanded. What caused expansion & what caused it to be in the state of singularity?

Ok, read the big crunch & big bounce hypotheses and read the following verse:

Surah Al-Anbiya, Verse 104:

يَوْمَ نَطْوِي السَّمَاءَ كَطَيِّ السِّجِلِّ لِلْكُتُبِ كَمَا بَدَأْنَا أَوَّلَ خَلْقٍ نُّعِيدُهُ وَعْدًا عَلَيْنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا فَاعِلِينَ

On the day when We will roll up heaven like the rolling up of the scroll for writings, as We originated the first creation, (so) We shall reproduce it; a promise (binding on Us); surely We will bring it about.

(English - Shakir)

The One who has caused the expansion of Universe, is Able to roll it back & turn it into nothing.

where is the quantifiable evidence? It's all just claims. 

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11 minutes ago, Aladin from Azra tribe said:

Sultan means "seeing/knowing the difference between two things which looks almost same". Please check all the ayets. It's very important word. But, thanks for trying to explain "energy" to me.

Sultan has many meanings, one of them is authority and other is power.

Surah Al-Haaqqa, Verse 29:

هَلَكَ عَنِّي سُلْطَانِيَهْ

My authority is gone away from me.

(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Rahman, Verse 33:

يَا مَعْشَرَ الْجِنِّ وَالْإِنسِ إِنِ اسْتَطَعْتُمْ أَن تَنفُذُوا مِنْ أَقْطَارِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ فَانفُذُوا لَا تَنفُذُونَ إِلَّا بِسُلْطَانٍ

O assembly of the jinn and the men! If you are able to pass through the regions of the heavens and the earth, then pass through; you cannot pass through but with authority.

(English - Shakir)

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25 minutes ago, humanbeing101 said:

where is the quantifiable evidence? It's all just claims. 

Scintifically, we know that universe is expanding. We have even quatify its rate of expansion. Now what Quran says is that:

51:47 AND IT IS We who have built the universe with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it. 

Surah Adh-Dhariyat, Verse 47:

وَالسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ

 

 

 

Edited by Engineer73

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1 hour ago, humanbeing101 said:

So what are you exactly saying here? There are are bubbles? Namely the multiverse? 

I said is like a bubbling pool... it was a metaphor. And I do think parallel universe does exist. it could be where our Imam Mehdi (a.s) is. you should study string theory its pretty interesting. There could be mutliple universe one of them could be what we call heave the other could be what we call hell. you never know. But it sounds very interesting....

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2 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

I said is like a bubbling pool... it was a metaphor. And I do think parallel universe does exist. it could be where our Imam Mehdi (a.s) is. you should study string theory its pretty interesting. There could be mutliple universe one of them could be what we call heave the other could be what we call hell. you never know. But it sounds very interesting....

A fish would say the exact samething in regards to a 3rd dimension. Fish only see in two dimensions and they cannot fathom or operate in a 3rd one like we do. 

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29 minutes ago, humanbeing101 said:

A fish would say the exact samething in regards to a 3rd dimension. Fish only see in two dimensions and they cannot fathom or operate in a 3rd one like we do. 

Yeah i can't even imagine the world where time is 4th dimension. Imagine the things we could do.

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On 1/18/2017 at 6:41 PM, humanbeing101 said:

If energy is eternal* does that mean we don't need God in the equation? 

No it doesnt for a few reasons.

A few quick points.

1.  Eternal doesnt mean necessary.  You could have something eternal, but didnt have to exist.  In other words you could have an eternal contingent entity.  

2.  Fine tuning arguments are unaffected.  This includes the newer arguments from discoverability, as well as others.  See links below

3.  Other arguments including contingency arguments, aquinas' arguments, moral arguments, arguments from conscioussness etc still apply.

4.  The law of conservation of energy only applies once it exists, i.e. once God created it.  It isnt an eternal necessary truth like 2+2=4.  It is a physical law which could have been different.  

 

https://godandphilosophy.wordpress.com/proving-god/

 

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11 minutes ago, .InshAllah. said:

No it doesnt for a few reasons.

A few quick points.

1.  Eternal doesnt mean necessary.  You could have something eternal, but didnt have to exist.  In other words you could have an eternal contingent entity.  

2.  Fine tuning arguments are unaffected.  This includes the newer arguments from discoverability, as well as others.  See links below

3.  Other arguments including contingency arguments, aquinas' arguments, moral arguments, arguments from conscioussness etc still apply.

4.  The law of conservation of energy only applies once it exists, i.e. once God created it.  It isnt an eternal necessary truth like 2+2=4.  It is a physical law which could have been different.  

 

https://godandphilosophy.wordpress.com/proving-god/

 

That's paradoxical, if energy is eternal, it could not of come into existence.

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15 minutes ago, humanbeing101 said:

That's paradoxical, if energy is eternal, it could not of come into existence.

'come into existence' is the wrong way to describe it.   

If energy is eternal, it could still be caused.  Typically we think a cause has to come before its effect, but thats not true.  For example, a cause can be simultaneous with its effect, e.g. the cause of the door unlocking is the key turning, and the cause of the key turning is the hand turning... all happening simultaneously.   So the concept of causation is much richer that we ordinarily assume.

 

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6 minutes ago, .InshAllah. said:

'come into existence' is the wrong way to describe it.   

If energy is eternal, it could still be caused.  Typically we think a cause has to come before its effect, but thats not true.  For example, a cause can be simultaneous with its effect, e.g. the cause of the door unlocking is the key turning, and the cause of the key turning is the hand turning... all happening simultaneously.   So the concept of causation is much richer that we ordinarily assume.

 

So essentially God and energy are equally eternally? Therefore wouldn't that mean God isn't the first cause of everything.

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