Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī

If energy is eternal is God needed?

Rate this topic

105 posts in this topic

17 hours ago, Follower of Truth said:

There is two possibility. Either matters and energies were produced and created by themselves or an unlimited supreme being beyond human capacity and comprehension created these.

According to the modern science findings and facts we know no new energy or matter can be created or produced by itself. This is called 'Law of conservation of matters and energy'. They can only change form. but no new matter or energy can be produced by itself. It is established fact in Physics.

So you have no option but admit that an unlimited supreme being with no beginning and no end has created all this matters and energy. Simple and Clear.

Yes but the only thing we know exists is our universe and nothing outside of it. Secondly that is exactly what I was referring to the 'Law of conservation...', I mean it clearly shows energy cannot be destroyed or newly created, thus it must be eternal.

Secondly that means God could not of created it because the energy cannot be created. 

Thirdly you are negating string theory. String theory tells us there is 11 hyper-dimensional out there that cannot be seen. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

Total amount of energy in the universe is exactly zero. This is a direct consequence of the first law of thermodynamics.

 

Special theory of relativity states that energy and mass are interchangeable. First law of thermodynamics states that energy of a closed system cannot be created or destroyed. However the vacuum behaves like a "bubbling pool" which constantly creates and annihilates pairs of particles and anti-particles.  This bubbling is called quantum energy fluctuation. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle predicts that during the inflationary phase of the universe there were quantum fluctuations, which magnified to cosmic scale.

 

To sum up, total amount of energy in the universe does not change with time and it’s still zero. What is changing with time is just the entropy (energy dispersal) of the universe, which is still increasing.

 

So what are you exactly saying here? There are are bubbles? Namely the multiverse? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, humanbeing101 said:

Yes but the only thing we know exists is our universe and nothing outside of it.

How can you say that? When we know that universe has a beginning. It sounds atheistic to me, are you trying to say that universe originated spontaneously out of nothing? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Engineer73 said:

How can you say that? When we know that universe has a beginning. It sounds atheistic to me, are you trying to say that universe originated spontaneously out of nothing? 

No the point is the big bang caused all our stars and planets to form etc... However prior to that it was a vacuum of space which on a quantum level still has energy. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, humanbeing101 said:

mean it clearly shows energy cannot be destroyed or newly created, thus it must be eternal.

WE cannot destroy energy because it changes forms. The One who has created it & made it our necissity to do work, certainly able to do that. Similarly, see the state of singularity from which universe expanded. What caused expansion & what caused it to be in the state of singularity?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please, brothers, think "what is energy?" Because you're saying that Allah swt created (khaleqa) it and it has to be something real (haqq). If it is something real it has the "name" ('ism) He gave to it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Engineer73 said:

WE cannot destroy energy because it changes forms. The One who has created it & made it our necissity to do work, certainly able to do that. Similarly, see the state of singularity from which universe expanded. What caused expansion & what caused it to be in the state of singularity?

No one knows. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, humanbeing101 said:

mean it clearly shows energy cannot be destroyed or newly created, thus it must be eternal.

WE cannot destroy energy because it changes forms. The One who has created it & made it our necissity to do work, certainly able to do that. Similarly, see the state of singularity from which universe expanded. What caused expansion & what caused it to be in the state of singularity?

7 minutes ago, humanbeing101 said:

No one knows. 

Ok, read the big crunch & big bounce hypotheses and read the following verse:

Surah Al-Anbiya, Verse 104:

يَوْمَ نَطْوِي السَّمَاءَ كَطَيِّ السِّجِلِّ لِلْكُتُبِ كَمَا بَدَأْنَا أَوَّلَ خَلْقٍ نُّعِيدُهُ وَعْدًا عَلَيْنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا فَاعِلِينَ

On the day when We will roll up heaven like the rolling up of the scroll for writings, as We originated the first creation, (so) We shall reproduce it; a promise (binding on Us); surely We will bring it about.

(English - Shakir)

The One who has caused the expansion of Universe, is Able to roll it back & turn it into nothing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Aladin from Azra tribe said:

Please, brothers, think "what is energy?" Because you're saying that Allah swt created (khaleqa) it and it has to be something real (haqq). If it is something real it has the "name" ('ism) He gave to it.

I think it is some sort of "Sultan". It is mentioned in different styles and in different places and with different names. Different names may be because of different forms. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sultan means "seeing/knowing the difference between two things which looks almost same". Please check all the ayets. It's very important word. But, thanks for trying to explain "energy" to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

WE cannot destroy energy because it changes forms. The One who has created it & made it our necissity to do work, certainly able to do that. Similarly, see the state of singularity from which universe expanded. What caused expansion & what caused it to be in the state of singularity?

Ok, read the big crunch & big bounce hypotheses and read the following verse:

Surah Al-Anbiya, Verse 104:

يَوْمَ نَطْوِي السَّمَاءَ كَطَيِّ السِّجِلِّ لِلْكُتُبِ كَمَا بَدَأْنَا أَوَّلَ خَلْقٍ نُّعِيدُهُ وَعْدًا عَلَيْنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا فَاعِلِينَ

On the day when We will roll up heaven like the rolling up of the scroll for writings, as We originated the first creation, (so) We shall reproduce it; a promise (binding on Us); surely We will bring it about.

(English - Shakir)

The One who has caused the expansion of Universe, is Able to roll it back & turn it into nothing.

where is the quantifiable evidence? It's all just claims. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Aladin from Azra tribe said:

Sultan means "seeing/knowing the difference between two things which looks almost same". Please check all the ayets. It's very important word. But, thanks for trying to explain "energy" to me.

Sultan has many meanings, one of them is authority and other is power.

Surah Al-Haaqqa, Verse 29:

هَلَكَ عَنِّي سُلْطَانِيَهْ

My authority is gone away from me.

(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Rahman, Verse 33:

يَا مَعْشَرَ الْجِنِّ وَالْإِنسِ إِنِ اسْتَطَعْتُمْ أَن تَنفُذُوا مِنْ أَقْطَارِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ فَانفُذُوا لَا تَنفُذُونَ إِلَّا بِسُلْطَانٍ

O assembly of the jinn and the men! If you are able to pass through the regions of the heavens and the earth, then pass through; you cannot pass through but with authority.

(English - Shakir)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, humanbeing101 said:

where is the quantifiable evidence? It's all just claims. 

Scintifically, we know that universe is expanding. We have even quatify its rate of expansion. Now what Quran says is that:

51:47 AND IT IS We who have built the universe with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it. 

Surah Adh-Dhariyat, Verse 47:

وَالسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ

 

 

 

Edited by Engineer73
wmehar2 likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, humanbeing101 said:

So what are you exactly saying here? There are are bubbles? Namely the multiverse? 

I said is like a bubbling pool... it was a metaphor. And I do think parallel universe does exist. it could be where our Imam Mehdi (a.s) is. you should study string theory its pretty interesting. There could be mutliple universe one of them could be what we call heave the other could be what we call hell. you never know. But it sounds very interesting....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

I said is like a bubbling pool... it was a metaphor. And I do think parallel universe does exist. it could be where our Imam Mehdi (a.s) is. you should study string theory its pretty interesting. There could be mutliple universe one of them could be what we call heave the other could be what we call hell. you never know. But it sounds very interesting....

A fish would say the exact samething in regards to a 3rd dimension. Fish only see in two dimensions and they cannot fathom or operate in a 3rd one like we do. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, humanbeing101 said:

A fish would say the exact samething in regards to a 3rd dimension. Fish only see in two dimensions and they cannot fathom or operate in a 3rd one like we do. 

Yeah i can't even imagine the world where time is 4th dimension. Imagine the things we could do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/18/2017 at 6:41 PM, humanbeing101 said:

If energy is eternal* does that mean we don't need God in the equation? 

No it doesnt for a few reasons.

A few quick points.

1.  Eternal doesnt mean necessary.  You could have something eternal, but didnt have to exist.  In other words you could have an eternal contingent entity.  

2.  Fine tuning arguments are unaffected.  This includes the newer arguments from discoverability, as well as others.  See links below

3.  Other arguments including contingency arguments, aquinas' arguments, moral arguments, arguments from conscioussness etc still apply.

4.  The law of conservation of energy only applies once it exists, i.e. once God created it.  It isnt an eternal necessary truth like 2+2=4.  It is a physical law which could have been different.  

 

https://godandphilosophy.wordpress.com/proving-god/

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, .InshAllah. said:

No it doesnt for a few reasons.

A few quick points.

1.  Eternal doesnt mean necessary.  You could have something eternal, but didnt have to exist.  In other words you could have an eternal contingent entity.  

2.  Fine tuning arguments are unaffected.  This includes the newer arguments from discoverability, as well as others.  See links below

3.  Other arguments including contingency arguments, aquinas' arguments, moral arguments, arguments from conscioussness etc still apply.

4.  The law of conservation of energy only applies once it exists, i.e. once God created it.  It isnt an eternal necessary truth like 2+2=4.  It is a physical law which could have been different.  

 

https://godandphilosophy.wordpress.com/proving-god/

 

That's paradoxical, if energy is eternal, it could not of come into existence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, humanbeing101 said:

That's paradoxical, if energy is eternal, it could not of come into existence.

'come into existence' is the wrong way to describe it.   

If energy is eternal, it could still be caused.  Typically we think a cause has to come before its effect, but thats not true.  For example, a cause can be simultaneous with its effect, e.g. the cause of the door unlocking is the key turning, and the cause of the key turning is the hand turning... all happening simultaneously.   So the concept of causation is much richer that we ordinarily assume.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, .InshAllah. said:

'come into existence' is the wrong way to describe it.   

If energy is eternal, it could still be caused.  Typically we think a cause has to come before its effect, but thats not true.  For example, a cause can be simultaneous with its effect, e.g. the cause of the door unlocking is the key turning, and the cause of the key turning is the hand turning... all happening simultaneously.   So the concept of causation is much richer that we ordinarily assume.

 

So essentially God and energy are equally eternally? Therefore wouldn't that mean God isn't the first cause of everything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, humanbeing101 said:

So essentially God and energy are equally eternally? Therefore wouldn't that mean God isn't the first cause of everything.

Energy is not eternal because that would contradict God's existence. Energy was created by no one else but God.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Hassan Y said:

Energy is not eternal because that would contradict God's existence. Energy was created by no one else but God.

Yes but according to the law of conservation of energy, energy cannot be created or destroyed. Thus it had to of always existed and therefore it is paradoxical that God created it. That is the problem I am talking about. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, humanbeing101 said:

Yes but according to the law of conservation of energy, energy cannot be created or destroyed. Thus it had to of always existed and therefore it is paradoxical that God created it. That is the problem I am talking about. 

We already discussed this in this topic, I think it's on the first page. I'll explain it again though. 

In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system cannot change—it is said to be conserved over time. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed, but can change form; for instance, chemical energy can be converted to kinetic energy.

As you can see above, it clearly states 'isolated system'. Our universe is an isolated system, so therefore energy cannot be created nor destroyed ONLY in our universe. Our universe is 13.8 billion years old, therefore energy from our human knowledge has only existed for 13.8 billion years. In other words, energy is not eternal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Hassan Y said:

We already discussed this in this topic, I think it's on the first page. I'll explain it again though. 

In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system cannot change—it is said to be conserved over time. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed, but can change form; for instance, chemical energy can be converted to kinetic energy.

As you can see above, it clearly states 'isolated system'. Our universe is an isolated system, so therefore energy cannot be created nor destroyed ONLY in our universe. Our universe is 13.8 billion years old, therefore energy from our human knowledge has only existed for 13.8 billion years. In other words, energy is not eternal.

You're assuming our universe is a bubble and it is isolated. It is not proven scientifically that is it. The vacuum of space hasn't been proven to be self-contained or isolated. 

Secondly you are assuming our there is something outside of our universe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, humanbeing101 said:

So essentially God and energy are equally eternally? Therefore wouldn't that mean God isn't the first cause of everything.

No because energy came into existence a finite time ago.  My point was in answer to your question that 'IF energy is eternal, does that mean we dont need God?'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, humanbeing101 said:

You're assuming our universe is a bubble and it is isolated. It is not proven scientifically that is it. The vacuum of space hasn't been proven to be self-contained or isolated. 

Secondly you are assuming our there is something outside of our universe.

I'm not assuming anything, you're the one that is saying energy is eternal when that logically can't be true because not only would that contradict God's existence, but there is no scientific evidence of such energy existing outside our universe. Our universe is indeed an isolated system, and it is scientifically proven by every physicist. I don't know what is outside our universe or if anything exists other than the universe, but what we do know is our universe only existed for 13.8 billion years. Energy started right after the Big Bang, which means energy can only be 13.8 billion years old.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Hassan Y said:

I'm not assuming anything, you're the one that is saying energy is eternal when that logically can't be true because not only would that contradict God's existence, but there is no scientific evidence of such energy existing outside our universe. Our universe is indeed an isolated system, and it is scientifically proven by every physicist. I don't know what is outside our universe or if anything exists other than the universe, but what we do know is our universe only existed for 13.8 billion years. Energy started right after the Big Bang, which means energy can only be 13.8 billion years old.

Logic and science don't go hand in hand. Quantum mechanics is completely illogical to us and yet we can still observe it using the LHC. For example the same sub-atomic particle being at two places at once is clearly illogical but it is a scientific reality and has been tested. 

Secondly you are strawmaning here. I'm not talking about outside of the universe, for the simple fact no proof exists that there is an "outside of the universe". It's an assumption not a fact.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, .InshAllah. said:

No because energy came into existence a finite time ago.  My point was in answer to your question that 'IF energy is eternal, does that mean we dont need God?'

That doesn't make sense. You just agreed energy cannot be destroyed or created, therefore it had to of always existed. Therefore time is irrelevant. Time began to exist but energy and time are seperate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, humanbeing101 said:

Logic and science don't go hand in hand. Quantum mechanics is completely illogical to us and yet we can still observe it using the LHC. For example the same sub-atomic particle being at two places at once is clearly illogical but it is a scientific reality and has been tested. 

Secondly you are strawmaning here. I'm not talking about outside of the universe, for the simple fact no proof exists that there is an "outside of the universe". It's an assumption not a fact.

By saying there is no proof of anything outside the universe, you are limiting God.

Here are some facts.

1. The universe is the result of cause and effect. 

2. Therefore our universe is dependant on a predecessor

If our universe was created by something, what was it? We don't know, But we do know that God is the predecessor of all things. Since God is the first cause of everything, than logically speaking he is 'outside' the universe. Our universe is a closed system, therefore energy is eternal in the universe but not outside of it. If Energy is eternal in and outside the universe than that would logically contradict God's existence. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, humanbeing101 said:

That doesn't make sense. You just agreed energy cannot be destroyed or created, therefore it had to of always existed. Therefore time is irrelevant. Time began to exist but energy and time are seperate.

The law of conservation of energy is a physical law, not a logical truth.  I cannot bend the current laws of physics, and had they been different, I wouldnt have been able to bend those laws either.  But there is zero reason to think that God is unable to change these physical laws.  God can create energy and destroy energy.  If you think thats not true, then where is the scientific evidence that its not true?  There isnt any because this isnt a scientific question, its a philosophical one!  Any argument about the powers of God cannot be settled by science because its outside the scope of science.

 

Martyrdom likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.