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Can an illegitimate born child become a marja ?

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On 1/13/2017 at 8:41 PM, salman1 said:

What is the exact definition of illegitimate in contemporary times?

Just to clarify to everyone, an illegitimate child is someone that is born directly from adultery or fornication, regardless of what religion they come from. 

Edited by emceemo40

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On 1/13/2017 at 8:41 PM, salman1 said:

Is the ruling for an illegitimate person not fit to be a marja based on actual ahadith or is it based on scholarly agreement?

I would assume that it is based on scholarly agreement, because I do not know about any hadith that also says the same.

Also, during the time of the Prophet and Imams, there was no such thing as a 'marja' because there would only be one leader, which was infallible.

Because today we are led by fallible leaders in the period of major occultation, I personally wouldn't see a problem, because everyone can be prone to error, and even the best person wouldn't be perfect (with respect to all maraji').  

Edited by emceemo40

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On 1/13/2017 at 2:04 PM, shiaman14 said:

I believe a person of illegitimate birth cannot even lead prayers so I doubt he can be a marja.

Now, they can reach that status in terms of knowledge but cannot be a marja over people.

Isa ibn Mariam AS was born illegitimately and led the people.  Out of wedlock, no father.

Nuh's AS son was wicked despite birth into legitimacy.

If imams AS were truthful and infallible then any and all sayings regarding illegitimate children not being able to lead prayer or be imams are obvious lies.

No soul will bear the burden of another soul.

If that compromises a "Sahih hadith", then authentication criterion ought to be called into question.  @repenter

Adam's AS  son killed his brother.

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23 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Isa ibn Mariam AS was born illegitimately and led the people.  Out of wedlock, no father.

Astaghfirullah. Prophet Isa AS had no father because Allah created him in a special way. Prophet Adam AS did not have a father or mother. We can't say they were illegitimate, naoozibillah.

The people who were born illegitimate cannot be blamed for it. They can become good people and reach highest levels. 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235042512-important-questions-answered/?do=findComment&comment=3000550

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1 minute ago, Hameedeh said:

Astaghfirullah. Prophet Isa AS had no father because Allah created him in a special way. Prophet Adam AS did not have a father or mother. We can't say they were illegitimate, naoozibillah.

The people who were born illegitimate cannot be blamed for it. They can become good people and reach highest levels. 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235042512-important-questions-answered/?do=findComment&comment=3000550

my point is that the idea men or illegitimate children born outside marriage cannot lead prayer or be an authority is made up hogwash against Quran.

They're no different from those born in wedlock.

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17 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

my point is that the idea men or illegitimate children born outside marriage cannot lead prayer or be an authority is made up hogwash against Quran.

They're no different from those born in wedlock.

Did you read the question and answer at the link I posted above? EDIT: It was a repeat of what ShiaChat Mod posted on page one in this topic.

Edited by Hameedeh
Apparently, the information on page one has not been observed.

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10 minutes ago, Hameedeh said:

Did you read the question and answer at the link I posted above?

yes, before you even posted it.  which makes me wonder why I'm still reading things like "imam baqir says no flesh or ears etc. can be good from walad zina"

or some ayatollah and/or marja saying illegitimate kids cant lead prayer.

 

at the very end of your posts reference,I read, "It is important to mention that such illegitimate children if they remain staunch on the good path can acquire higher positions and a better life because they have practiced more self control."

 

Which I assume to mean that illegitimate children can grow up and lead prayer and take high positions.

As ridiculous as the reasoning up until that point was, the conclusion seemed to be, it was not a restriction upon them.

"Allah guides who He wills" 

Children of Jahiliya came to islam and those who followed Allah's Sunnah before Muhammad SAW to prior messengers AS , were children of ignorance.

 

Edited by wmehar2

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On 1/14/2017 at 4:12 PM, DigitalUmmah said:

Its probably got something to do with Imam Ali (as). an illegitimate person CANNOT love Imam Ali (as), how can they become a marja

@Hameedeh

contrary to your opinion, I've read it all, on this instance on page 1, and to prior threads on the same topic and directly from Al-Islam.org.

yet I see like @DigitalUmmah post above (and others interspersed around)

so I'm frustrated. 

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2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

regarding illegitimate children

An illegitimate child does not mean a child without a father. It specifically means the child was conceived without the mother being married to the child's biological father. Prophet Adam AS and Prophet Isa AS do not have a biological father, so their situation is not relevant to this topic at all. 

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14 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Come on now brother. This is not you. 

Perhaps I seem harsh in my statement but my point was to @Hameedeh

I did not mean it in the way you have read it, I'll try and elaborate.  If offense was taken, I do offer my apologies. Earlier I also mentioned that Isa is not a son of anyone , especially Zina. The link she posted said things like:

(1)    Due to illegal relationship, the relation between father and son is finished from the point of view of law and economics and thus it cuts off the family relationship and sentiments, which is the basis of a society. Sometimes the female doesn't know that from the sperm of which man she had become pregnant.

In this way a child does not know his father, grandfather, grandmother and relatives. And generally many ethical, psychological, social, training, family, financially and sentimental defects come into existence because of it. This is the reason that the Holy Prophets (s.a.w.a.) and laws makers of the society prohibited things, which are against sanctity; the Shari’ah also prohibits the illegal relationship.

-You all don't think Isa ibn Maryam AS experienced stigma from society as these illegitimate children @Hameedeh?  How many treated his mother and Isa AS  poorly thinking her a liar, and fornicator Astaghferullah, and thought the same of him?  Isa AS grew up without a father , to point (1) in the above, therefore he did not have that "basis of a society" for him.  And he is not an exception, to the set of children growing up without fathers (either of whom were born illegimately, father's died young or abandoned them etc. etc.)   What of those sons who born legitimately whose father's abandoned them, or died?  Maybe in actuality Isa AS was not a an Illegitimate child, but he and his mother were treated as such. @Hameedeh, making it relevant to this topic.

"Illegitimate children inherit bad manners, breaking of laws and sins from their parents. For them the ground for sins and crime is more feasible. As compared to others they are more prepared for sins and if they personally get wrong training or if the environment is not good, then it is enough for them that their polluted soul, like sparks beneath the ash become fire and burn their good fortune. "

"Although the rebellious nature of illegitimate children (which have more interest and are more inclined to break the laws and commit sins) makes it difficult for them to avoid sin, and it is also difficult for them to perform their duties, but if they go against their desires and follow the orders of Almighty and right principles they will be given the best of the rewards.

That is why Islam reproaches illegitimate children. It is so, to make them aware that they are facing a dangerous situation; they should fulfill their duties, remain away from sins and take precautions. It doesn't mean that knowledge and training has no effect on them and they will certainly go to Hell.

In other words those children who are illegitimately born are like those children who are born to the parents having diseases (T.B, and sexual disorders). These children have more chances of contracting these diseases and if they are not cured as early as possible they are more likely to get these diseases. This is the reason that to protect the interest of the people, those children who are possible to contract the disease of T.B. should not be given whatever food and other things are available.

Like the ill parents, illegitimate children are also prepared to break the laws and fall into crime if their training and studies are not provided in the right environment and healthy intentions. It is possible they may fall into a great depth and ally with the criminals. For those reasons, in order to protect the social cause, precautions should be taken that they remain away from some posts."

Did Nuh AS's son inherit his wickedness from his father?  Did Cain, son of Adam AS inherit his envy/jealousy from his father?

It's making an analogy to illegitimate kids as to being born from parents with STD's, AFTER stating they don't share burden's from their parents, from the Qu'ran?   Is that not hypocritical?

The MAJORITY of PROBLEMS IN THIS WORLD COME FROM LEGITAMATE KIDS/and so on and so forth.  The Ignorant sinful parents that are married within the sanctities of their own marriage can still teach their offspring ignorance, as that is the real poison plaguing the majority of the uneducated right wing demographic. But no, we have to be careful especially of Illegitimate kids, even if they're muslim.  

How DARE does the rhetoric in that link insinuate illegitimate children as persons of special reproach?

I argue that Islam doesn't reproach illegitimate children.

I'm not good at articulating my point here probably blinded by my frustration @shiaman14

This entire article is a backhanded insult.  Almost, Apologetic

Consider the evil father raping a woman, and she bearing the child , raising without the evil father to make the son better.

Consider the evil father/kings like the Umayyads who bore the likes of Umar II.

Consider the legitimate born Wahhabs and Da3sh.   Yet this article blankets out to reproach [Edited Out] kids.  What's next, let's all give cards to [Edited Out] children so we know who to avoid?

[Mod Note. No profanity is allowed.]

Edited by ShiaChat Mod
Mod Note.

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4 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Perhaps I seem harsh in my statement but my point was to @Hameedeh

I did not mean it in the way you have read it, I'll try and elaborate.  If offense was taken, I do offer my apologies. Earlier I also mentioned that Isa is not a son of anyone , especially Zina. The link she posted said things like:

I'm not good at articulating my point here probably blinded by my frustration @shiaman14

no apology needed. I was just surprised. You are one of the most respectful people on SC so I was surprised. That's all.

Even if/when we disagree, I have nothing but respect for you.

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1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

no apology needed. I was just surprised. You are one of the most respectful people on SC so I was surprised. That's all.

Even if/when we disagree, I have nothing but respect for you.

I have my flaws :/  Im susceptible to lose myself and say things I'll regret.   

I was typing angrily at the keyboard, but really  wanted to articulate despite the reality of legitimacy of Isa AS, he was stigmatized for it and wronged.  Which is quite different from him being actually illegitimate,  however the end result he was treated as such.  Should not the end goal be treat those the way you want to be treated regardless who they are or how they're born? 

The second point being that the Cultivation of ethics and morals for actual illegitimate children is not to give reproach to them.  If anything that's conducive to making the risks the reproacher fears, exacerbated.

Did my point(s) come through ? 

Edited by wmehar2

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On 1/13/2017 at 7:40 PM, Akbar673 said:

I've always wondered about this...

so the child (who has done nothing wrong) when he/she comes of age can not do certain things simply because his parents made a mistake?

The child is punished for the sins of the parents?

Is there a punishment here though? Perhaps this is one way of ensuring certain people do not get into power.

There is no sin if a person does not become a marja.

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22 minutes ago, iraqi_shia said:

There is no sin if a person does not become a marja.

But is it a sin to prevent one drom doing so on the basis of their birth, when they meet qualifications?

What good did it do (it being preventing illegitimately born children acquiring authoritative roles) to prevent horrible leaders getting into power in any and all lands from the inception of time? 

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15 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

But is it a sin to prevent one drom doing so on the basis of their birth, when they meet qualifications?

What good did it do (it being preventing illegitimately born children acquiring authoritative roles) to prevent horrible leaders getting into power in any and all lands from the inception of time? 

Its not a sin. 

If I am born with only one arm, Allah has not sinned against me. It is simply my limit.

I did not say that was the definite logic, I was just speculating that the true reasoning behind these rules may have a good function, we just may not know it now.

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4 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

Its not a sin. 

If I am born with only one arm, Allah has not sinned against me. It is simply my limit.

I did not say that was the definite logic, I was just speculating that the true reasoning behind these rules may have a good function, we just may not know it now.

I see,  I contend that these rules are not God's rules but manmade.

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9 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

I see,  I contend that these rules are not God's rules but manmade.

For people who don't believe in taqleed this topic is not even an issue. If a man is illegitimate and doesn't know it, he can study Islam and become a marja. Even if he knows he is illegitimate, and studies in hawza and becomes a marja, nobody else will know about it, so it's not our business. It is the known illegitimate son who grew up in a house where men were coming and going and the mother is known for her bad reputation, then this son should be given education and help to find a career. Then he should take care of his mother and other family members to get them out of their situation. 

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