Jump to content

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

@Yaaqov Ben Yisrael, can you elaborate a bit on the story of the torah as if i was your three year old son? You speak in a highly advanced language, which most here will not understand. 

The Torah is a set of books also referred to as the Old Testament. Those were written as a covenant? Please explain.

And if there is one person on shiachat i would like to take courses with, it would be you right now. I want to learn everything you know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, 313 Seeker said:

@Yaaqov Ben Yisrael, can you elaborate a bit on the story of the torah as if i was your three year old son? You speak in a highly advanced language, which most here will not understand. 

The Torah is a set of books also referred to as the Old Testament. Those were written as a covenant? Please explain.

And if there is one person on shiachat i would like to take courses with, it would be you right now. I want to learn everything you know.

 
 

The Torah was written upon two tablets of stone [front and back]; therefore the Torah, literally, is roughly 4 pages in length. The content of the Torah was all the words God spoke to Moshe (AS) while he was upon the mountain. The Torah is known by several words: Torah, which means instruction; Eduth, which means evidence or testimony; and Mitzwah, which means commandment; Brith, which means covenant/contract; as well as the phrase 'Asereth haDevarim which means 10 Subjects [not ten commandments as some have falsely claimed].

When reading the Hebrew Text, the actual Torah consisted of the conversation between God and Moshe (AS) beginning in Exodus 20 and ending in Exodus 23:33; this dialogue resumed in chapter 25:1 and ended in 31:18. When written in Hebrew, this entire conversation fits nicely upon two sheets of 8.5x11 printing paper- written front and back.

The Tablets were given to the priests and kept inside the Ark of the Testimony. On the outside of this Ark, Moshe (AS) wrote the same words on a scroll- called Sefer haBrith [scroll of the covenant] Exodus 24:4. In addition to the Torah, Moshe (AS) was instructed to write the travels of Israel as they wandered in the wilderness Numbers 33:2, the memorial of the wars of Israel Exodus 17:14, as well as what is called the song of Moshe (AS) found in Deuteronomy 31:22. He also wrote other legal rulings which were not included on the Tablets, for instance, the ruling of inheritance regarding Zelophehad's daughters Numbers 26 and 27. All this was written in the scroll and not on the tablets of stone. This scroll was rewritten over time by the priests- who were in charge of the Torah. The two tablets were lost when the Temple was destroyed and the Ark was taken as spoils of war. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Yaaqov Ben Yisrael said:

The Torah was written upon two tablets of stone [front and back]; therefore the Torah, literally, is roughly 4 pages in length.

This is highly interesting, and I am thankful for clarifying this. Religion is always simpler than people make it out to be!

Do you have a link or pictures that you can share, that summarize the actual real torah from beginning to end? And how accurate would you say is it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

This is highly interesting, and I am thankful for clarifying this. Religion is always simpler than people make it out to be!

Do you have a link or pictures that you can share, that summarize the actual real torah from beginning to end? And how accurate would you say is it?

 
 

I wrote them with the Phoenician script- using the Phoenician word dividers. This is closer to the script which would have been used since the block Hebrew which is used since the end of the Babylonian exile are later Aramaic letters. The 4th page is not full- this is because of the limitation of the font sizes available in Microsoft Word.

 

Asereth haDevarim example.pdf

Edited by Yaaqov Ben Yisrael
clarification

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Yaaqov Ben Yisrael said:

I wrote them with the Phoenician script- using the Phoenician word dividers. This is closer to the script which would have been used since the block Hebrew which is used since the end of the Babylonian exile are later Aramaic letters. The 4th page is not full- this is because of the limitation of the font sizes available in Microsoft Word.

Asereth haDevarim example.pdf

this is beautiful! there are people here on shiachat who recommended giving special labels to people of knowledge here. I would recommend you to be among their leaders to be honest. Anyway, so the original language that Allah inscribed the tables in on mount moses was in a Phoenician style language? Can you elaborate a bit here? And do you have the text translated?

So again, the text you wrote would be what the tablets looked like?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

this is beautiful! there are people here on shiachat who recommended giving special labels to people of knowledge here. I would recommend you to be among their leaders to be honest. Anyway, so the original language that Allah inscribed the tables in on mount moses was in a Phoenician style language? Can you elaborate a bit here? And do you have the text translated?

So again, the text you wrote would be what the tablets looked like?

 
 

I do not know what the originally inscribed letters were; the earliest Hebrew recorded is written in the Phoeician script. I did not use the normal block Aramaic Hebrew script because it had not been developed when the Torah was given.

I don't know everything- no one does, only God. I am glad to help with what I know, but I don't refer to be any leader or be placed in estimation higher than I deserve; I am simply a servant of God. 

I gave reference to where the dialogue began and ended in this thread. You can look those up and if you have any questions, I can provide a translation or clarification for you.

Edited by Yaaqov Ben Yisrael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Yaaqov Ben Yisrael said:

be any leader or be placed in estimation higher than I deserve; I am simply a servant of God. 

that is my opinion, and surely those who do not wish leadership are the only ones worthy of it!

anyway, were the earliest hebrew writings during Babylonian times? Wouldn't they be written i form of hieroglyphs?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, 313 Seeker said:

that is my opinion, and surely those who do not wish leadership are the only ones worthy of it!

anyway, were the earliest hebrew writings during Babylonian times? Wouldn't they be written i form of hieroglyphs?

 

The earliest Semitic- Hebrew is a Cana'anite dialect of Semitic- was written in cuneiform- wedge-shaped. These were made on clay tablets which were heated when finished to hardened the clay. The Akkadian adapted the Sumerian cuneiform and the early Akkadian texts used lots of the same signs as the Sumerian. Cuneiform is a hieroglyphic style writing- it was originally based upon pictographs. 

Hebrew was never written in this style of writing; the earliest form of Hebrew- which dated to the time of the early kings of Judea- was written in the Phoenician script.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Yaaqov Ben Yisrael said:

The earliest Semitic- Hebrew is a Cana'anite dialect of Semitic- was written in cuneiform- wedge-shaped. These were made on clay tablets which were heated when finished to hardened the clay. The Akkadian adapted the Sumerian cuneiform and the early Akkadian texts used lots of the same signs as the Sumerian. Cuneiform is a hieroglyphic style writing- it was originally based upon pictographs. 

Hebrew was never written in this style of writing; the earliest form of Hebrew- which dated to the time of the early kings of Judea- was written in the Phoenician script.

i am not sure how old these people are, and when all this took place. Do you have a translation of the actual torah in english? the one you sent me? and how accurate would you rate it as?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, 313 Seeker said:

i am not sure how old these people are, and when all this took place. Do you have a translation of the actual torah in english? the one you sent me? and how accurate would you rate it as?

 

I don't have it in English; I use on-line Bible resources to copy-paste simply for ease of writing these posts. If you want, I can translate the entire text to English and send it to you. It will take a few days to get it all done and send it to you- or I can post it here like the other pdf.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Yaaqov Ben Yisrael said:

I don't have it in English; I use on-line Bible resources to copy-paste simply for ease of writing these posts. If you want, I can translate the entire text to English and send it to you. It will take a few days to get it all done and send it to you- or I can post it here like the other pdf.

oh my God that would be SUCH an honor! if you want i can pay you and send you money for that task!  and you can post it here for all to see. i believe that would be a great task for humanity and God. Are you sure that nobody did it before, and that it isn't online somewhere already? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

oh my God that would be SUCH an honor! if you want i can pay you and send you money for that task!  and you can post it here for all to see. i believe that would be a great task for humanity and God. Are you sure that nobody did it before, and that it isn't online somewhere already? 

I  do  not need  money; thank  you  for  offering, all  the  same.

These  Text  is  found  in  every translated Bible-  containing the  Hebrew  Text.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/1/2017 at 1:51 AM, Yaaqov Ben Yisrael said:

Judaism is a contrived word- first used by the Romans to describe the inhabitants of Judea and their customs;

Salam Yaaqov Ben Yisrael,

If God wills, I'm going to start learning Hebrew on June 3rd; I'm so excited!!! However, I have a question about this:

Ezra 4:24  http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt35a04.htm

"Then when the copy of king Artaxerxes' letter was read before Rehum, and Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went in haste to Jerusalem unto the Jews, and made them to cease by force and power."

כג  אֱדַיִן, מִן-דִּי פַּרְשֶׁגֶן נִשְׁתְּוָנָא דִּי אַרְתַּחְשַׁשְׂתְּא מַלְכָּא, קֱרִי קֳדָם-רְחוּם וְשִׁמְשַׁי סָפְרָא, וּכְנָוָתְהוֹן; אֲזַלוּ בִבְהִילוּ לִירוּשְׁלֶם עַל-יְהוּדָיֵא, וּבַטִּלוּ הִמּוֹ בְּאֶדְרָע וְחָיִל.  {ס}

Is the Hebrew word translated "Jews" really Jews? Ezra was of course before the Roman oppression of Judea/Israel. If the Hebrew there is accurately translated Jews, then doesn't the term Jews precede Roman times? Thanks.

Peace and God bless you

 

 

Edited by Christianlady

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Yaaqov Ben Yisrael said:

I  do  not need  money; thank  you  for  offering, all  the  same.

These  Text  is  found  in  every translated Bible-  containing the  Hebrew  Text.

sorry if i am asking you to repeat things you already said, but can you explain once more how you know that these parts are the original parts? And i had to offer you a compensation, because i love spending money in the way of Allah.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Salam Yaaqov Ben Yisrael,

If God wills, I'm going to start learning Hebrew on June 3rd; I'm so excited!!! However, I have a question about this:

Ezra 4:24  http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt35a04.htm

"Then when the copy of king Artaxerxes' letter was read before Rehum, and Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went in haste to Jerusalem unto the Jews, and made them to cease by force and power."

כג  אֱדַיִן, מִן-דִּי פַּרְשֶׁגֶן נִשְׁתְּוָנָא דִּי אַרְתַּחְשַׁשְׂתְּא מַלְכָּא, קֱרִי קֳדָם-רְחוּם וְשִׁמְשַׁי סָפְרָא, וּכְנָוָתְהוֹן; אֲזַלוּ בִבְהִילוּ לִירוּשְׁלֶם עַל-יְהוּדָיֵא, וּבַטִּלוּ הִמּוֹ בְּאֶדְרָע וְחָיִל.  {ס}

Is the Hebrew word translated "Jews" really Jews? Ezra was of course before the Roman oppression of Judea/Israel. If the Hebrew there is accurately translated Jews, then doesn't the term Jews precede Roman times? Thanks.

Peace and God bless you

 

 

 

Yes, it is Aramaic and written in the plural with the emphatic Alef- indicating the Jews. It was the Judeans who were taken captive and who returned. This is the origin of the idea of Jewish- the inhabitants of Judea and their customs. Judaism was first recorded by the Romans to describe this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

sorry if i am asking you to repeat things you already said, but can you explain once more how you know that these parts are the original parts? And i had to offer you a compensation, because i love spending money in the way of Allah.

 

The original was only what was spoken to Moshe (AS) by God; this is what is recorded that was given to Moshe (AS). The Hebrew Text we have today is the same Text which was used during the life of the Holy Prophet (SAAWAWS)- it was never considered to be false. In fact, it was this same Hebrew Text which the Qur'an enjoined the Israelites to judge by. 

There are several other ways to prove they were the same; the easiest of these is to look at the portions which are known to be what God spoke to Moshe (AS) upon the mountain- they are recorded in the Samaritan Scripture, the Greek Septuagint, the Qumran scrolls, as well as the earliest Arabic translation of the Hebrew Text by Rabbi Sa'adia haGaon. In all these texts, those portions which are only what God spoke to Moshe (AS) on the mount are the same with one exception- in the Samaritan Text, the inclusion of Mount Gerizim regarding the place of worship in Cana'an. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Yaaqov Ben Yisrael said:

Yes, it is Aramaic and written in the plural with the emphatic Alef- indicating the Jews. It was the Judeans who were taken captive and who returned. This is the origin of the idea of Jewish- the inhabitants of Judea and their customs. Judaism was first recorded by the Romans to describe this.

Salam Yaaqov Ben Yisrael,

Thanks for explaining this.

Peace and God bless you

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

@Yaaqov Ben Yisrael another question:

 

how was the rest of the texts a form of covenant? Was it part of the agreement that they would write down all the stories? could you give some details to that? 

thanks!

 

The Text I provided was from what is traditionally called the Torah- it is included in every translation there is as well as in all the most ancient texts- Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek, etc. What I did was remove all the filler- according to the scriptures, the Torah was written upon two tablets of stone which consisted of everything God spoke to Moshe (AS) upon the mountain. That is precisely what I wrote down in the Phoenician script in the above-attached PDF.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Yaaqov Ben Yisrael said:

The Text I provided was from what is traditionally called the Torah- it is included in every translation there is as well as in all the most ancient texts- Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek, etc. What I did was remove all the filler- according to the scriptures, the Torah was written upon two tablets of stone which consisted of everything God spoke to Moshe (AS) upon the mountain. That is precisely what I wrote down in the Phoenician script in the above-attached PDF.

yes thank you! and the rest? the rest of the Old Testament? Sorry, can you explain again what that is and where it is from? Who wrote it, and why, and when? thanks!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Testament is from the Latin testamentum- from the infinitive testari- to testify and mentum- the medium by which a thing is accomplished. Hence, the word testament is referring to the medium by which a witness is given. 

The Torah of YHWH is perfect, returning [a causative participle- making return] the soul. The Testimony [eduth] of YHWH is sure, making the simple wise. The precepts [piqudim] of YHWH are right, rejoicing the heart. The commandment [mitzwah] of YHWH is pure, giving light to the eyes. The fear of YHWH is clean, enduring forever. The judgments [mishpatim] of YHWH are true, they are righteous altogether. Psalm 19:8-10

The Torah of YHWH is perfect, returning [a causative participle- making return] the soul. This is how repentance is accomplished- by obeying the Torah.

In this verse, Torah, eduth, and mitzwah are all singular as they are the same- the Two Tablets of Stone given to Moses.

And YHWH said to Moses, Come up to Me to the mountain, and be there. And I will give to you the tablets of stone, and the Torah, and the commandment [mitzwah] which I have written, to teach them. Exodus 24:12

And when He finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave to Moses the two tablets of the testimony [eduth], tablets of stone, written by the finger of God. Exodus 31:18

The entire complex which was revealed to Moshe (AS) to construct was designed to house the Torah. One reads in the Hebrew Text that God told Moshe (AS) to construct a dwelling in which He would dwell and from which He would meet and speak with the people- this is what the Torah called the Mishkan [place of dwelling]. Some have taken this literally- that God would physically dwell in the structure; this is not the case. It is the testimony, the Tablets of Stone which were written that speaks to Israel. The duty of the Kohen Gadol- the High Priest- was to provide jurisprudence [fiqh] to the people in times when they Tablets are not so clear on the subject. 

The Ark of the Covenant is called the Ark of the Testimony

And you shall hang the veil under the hooks. And you shall bring the ark of the testimony there inside to the veil. And the veil shall divide for you between the sanctuary and the Holy of Holies. Exodus 26:33

This is because the Ark contained the Testimony- the Tablets of Torah

And you shall put the testimony into the ark, which I shall give to you. Exodus 25:16

The Tent, the Mishkan, itself is called the Tent of the Testimony

These are the precepts [pequdim] of the tabernacle [mishkan], the tabernacle of the testimony [mishkan ha-eduth], which were taught [puqad] by the mouth of Moshe for the service of the Lawi'im by the hand of Ithamar, the son of Aharon the priest. Exodus 38:21

The mantel of Moshe (AS) was set upon Yehoshua bin Nun (AS) after Moshe (AS) died. YHWH explained to Yehoshua (AS)

This book of the Torah shall not depart out of your mouth, and you shall meditate [hagidta] on it by day and by night, so that you shall be on guard to do according to all that is written in it. For then you shall prosper [tasliah-tusalihu] your way [derakekha- tariqaka], and then you shall act wisely. Yehoshua 1:8

The idea of meditation [haguth] is from the verb hagah- to pronounce, to recite. For this reason, our prayers have always been to meditate upon the Torah by reciting it- three times daily

But his delight is only in the Torah of YHWH, and he meditates [yehgeh] in His Torah day and night. Psalm 1:2

We do not call this "the Old Testament" because there is only 1- an eternal testimony and covenant. The testimony of Yeshuah bin Maryam (AS) is the same- this is what repentance is (return to Torah- tawbah liTawrat) by doing this one returns to God [tawbah liLLahi].

The Hebrew Text is referred to as the Tenakh- an acronym from Torah, Nevi'im [prophets] and Ketuvim [writings]. The Torah was written by God on the Tablets of Stone and by the Hand of Moshe (AS) upon the scroll of the Covenant; the Nevi'im was written by the various prophets who recorded the history as well as the prophetical statements; the ketuvim were written by the sages of Israel and included history, songs, ect. All of this has been preserved by the sages over the centuries.

Edited by Yaaqov Ben Yisrael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×