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Dear Friend,

I heard a lot of stories about Baha'is and excommunication. While it is true that Baha'is may be excommunicated if they try to create sects, it is a very lengthy process. As an experiment, I tried it myself. I talked to the assembly that I wanted to become an Orthodox Baha'i and they told me that it was my choice; however, I would be breaking a law of Baha'u'llah and thus, they would not talk to me. Before that though, they discussed it with me for so long before they were able to label me a covenant breaker. I told them later that I did it for the sole reason to see the implications of breaking the covenant and to verify to what extent those stories are true.

However, if someone leaves the Baha'i Faith, nothing happens. Lots of members (including some family members) left the religion. We would talk about it, for sure. That's love and care; we don't want them to go astray, but we don't push it too far. At all.

UHJ having full control?? Since when? I disagree with the entire Ruhi concept which the UHJ implemented. I think it's biased and does not put into consideration all the cultural differences among the Baha'is of the world. Many Baha'is voice their discontent with Ruhi and it's totally okay. According to the Baha'i Faith, drinking is not allowed. Many Baha'is drink. Now, when they say they want to drink, all the National Assembly (an organization under the UHJ) says "it is between them and God." 

As a matter of fact, I've never seen the Assembly controlling marriages or work or anything. Most of us marry based on our parents' approval and that is. And, we work anywhere.

Regarding the world government, I do see your point in those two quotations. However, let's examine the first quotation. Now, as I said, this unification of the world is inevitable. It is to happen. God, in the revelation of Baha'u'llah, does give and prescribe remedies to the world. However, as Baha'u'llah says in the Iqan, (I'm paraphrasing) "whoever comes forth and believes, to him is his profit, and whoever rejects, to him his rejection." So we're not controlling anything. The Baha'i Faith is the remedy; whoever takes it, takes it. Whoever doesn't, it is between him and God. Now, the remedy, according to the quote, is the unity of humanity in one Cause and one Faith. It's important to note here that "faith" is not "religion" and the "faith" Baha'u'llah talks about is the faith in humanity. No one is enforcing the faith of Baha'u'llah. It is to have faith in humanity and to be unified in one Cause: the advancement of humanity.

Regarding the second quote, it proves my point. Shoghi says "it's watchword is...," meaning the Cause is the unification of humanity, in the standard of which is "the Most Great Peace." That "Most Great Peace" era when people of all races, all religions are unified together under one world government is the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of Baha'u'llah, because this is Baha'u'llah's vision. However that vision does not say that all people in that Kingdom are Baha'is, nor does it say that the rulers are Baha'i.

For instance, when Martin Luther King starts off his revolution to eliminate racism and when we say "Martin Luther King's dream is fulfilled." Does this mean that the black race will rule everyone? Or that the black race is the only race left? No. Similarly, the "Kingdom of Baha'u'llah" is an allusion to this era of Peace, in which all people are united, under a government the people form. 

Regarding the last quote; it is important to note that this quote comes from a different tablet to the Most Holy Book. Kitab-i-Aqdas mentions a similar quote; however, it adds upon it and it says that "whoever proclaims a message before the passing of 1000 years" is ... etc. Now, if you read the entire passage, Baha'u'llah is talking about this dispensation, which started from the Declaration of the Bab and will end 1000 years after 1844, which means that whoever (other than the Bab and Baha'u'llah) proclaims, before the passing of 1000 years, that he is a prophet, he certainly is a liar. It is important to note that all key writings of Baha'u'llah mention the coming of a new prophet. Read the Kitab-i-Iqan to see what I mean.

My brother in faith, thank you so much for bring these into attention and this is the type of conversation I would like to indulge in. I do not want to argue, just discuss. (Also, we share the same "faith," the belief in God, even if we don't share the same religion. You are my brother and so are all the rest of you.)

Hamzah

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Dear friend,

On 1/21/2017 at 3:19 PM, Hamzah J. said:

I heard a lot of stories about Baha'is and excommunication. While it is true that Baha'is may be excommunicated if they try to create sects, it is a very lengthy process. As an experiment, I tried it myself. I talked to the assembly that I wanted to become an Orthodox Baha'i and they told me that it was my choice; however, I would be breaking a law of Baha'u'llah and thus, they would not talk to me. Before that though, they discussed it with me for so long before they were able to label me a covenant breaker. I told them later that I did it for the sole reason to see the implications of breaking the covenant and to verify to what extent those stories are true.

People are not excommunicated for simply trying to create a sect and even if they do you are still performing the crazy (as you put it) act of excommunicating them. I can post the stories of many people who were excommunicated for very trivial reasons. Traveling to Israel without Shoghi's permission, traveling to America without Shoghi's permission, stating that they were Muslim instead of Baha'i to save their lives, finding out the truth about Baha'ism and speaking about it, being a follower or supporter of Baha'u'llah's other son, Muhammad Ali etc. etc. etc.

On 1/21/2017 at 3:19 PM, Hamzah J. said:

UHJ having full control?? Since when? I disagree with the entire Ruhi concept which the UHJ implemented. I think it's biased and does not put into consideration all the cultural differences among the Baha'is of the world. Many Baha'is voice their discontent with Ruhi and it's totally okay. According to the Baha'i Faith, drinking is not allowed. Many Baha'is drink. Now, when they say they want to drink, all the National Assembly (an organization under the UHJ) says "it is between them and God." 

If the UHJ orders you to this or that you have to oblige. This is called full control. Just because the UHJ does not meddle in all your affairs, it doesn't mean you have freedom to disobey the UHJ when they give a direct order.

On 1/21/2017 at 3:19 PM, Hamzah J. said:

Regarding the world government, I do see your point in those two quotations. However, let's examine the first quotation. Now, as I said, this unification of the world is inevitable. It is to happen. God, in the revelation of Baha'u'llah, does give and prescribe remedies to the world. However, as Baha'u'llah says in the Iqan, (I'm paraphrasing) "whoever comes forth and believes, to him is his profit, and whoever rejects, to him his rejection." So we're not controlling anything. The Baha'i Faith is the remedy; whoever takes it, takes it. Whoever doesn't, it is between him and God. Now, the remedy, according to the quote, is the unity of humanity in one Cause and one Faith. It's important to note here that "faith" is not "religion" and the "faith" Baha'u'llah talks about is the faith in humanity. No one is enforcing the faith of Baha'u'llah. It is to have faith in humanity and to be unified in one Cause: the advancement of humanity.

Regarding the second quote, it proves my point. Shoghi says "it's watchword is...," meaning the Cause is the unification of humanity, in the standard of which is "the Most Great Peace." That "Most Great Peace" era when people of all races, all religions are unified together under one world government is the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of Baha'u'llah, because this is Baha'u'llah's vision. However that vision does not say that all people in that Kingdom are Baha'is, nor does it say that the rulers are Baha'i.

IMO, You are trying to squeeze out a meaning out of those quotes that goes against it apparent and obvious meaning. For all I know according to Baha'u'llah you have to take the evident meaning of his statements and refrain from paraphrasing: "Whoso interpreteth what hath been sent down from the heaven of Revelation, and altereth its evident meaning, he, verily, is of them that have perverted the Sublime Word of God, and is of the lost ones in the Lucid Book." (Baha'u'llah, Aqdas, no. 105)

On 1/21/2017 at 3:19 PM, Hamzah J. said:

Regarding the last quote; it is important to note that this quote comes from a different tablet to the Most Holy Book. Kitab-i-Aqdas mentions a similar quote; however, it adds upon it and it says that "whoever proclaims a message before the passing of 1000 years" is ... etc. Now, if you read the entire passage, Baha'u'llah is talking about this dispensation, which started from the Declaration of the Bab and will end 1000 years after 1844, which means that whoever (other than the Bab and Baha'u'llah) proclaims, before the passing of 1000 years, that he is a prophet, he certainly is a liar. It is important to note that all key writings of Baha'u'llah mention the coming of a new prophet. Read the Kitab-i-Iqan to see what I mean.

You see this is called a contradiction. You can't claim that no Manifestations will come in the future and at the same time claim that manifestations will come after a thousand years.

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Hello,

No, it is not crazy. They are trying to create disunity. To keep the community united, they have to excommunicated. However, to be excommunicated, it takes a long time. Regarding Shoghi, well, you see, it was a time of war and Shoghi knows best about travel to Israel, since he remained in Israel, faithful to the holy land. It's an issue of safety. No one is forcing anyone anything. You can choose to follow Baha'u'llah's other son, but, according to mainstream belief, you will be considered a covenant breaker. It is no trivial issue (disuniting the faith).

Also, to be honest, no, the UHJ rarely does anything in the first place. I joined the Baha'i Faith for many years and I have not seen any Baha'i organization telling me what to do. I asked crazy lots of questions, really. And they answered me.

Regarding the quote in the Aqdas, it only refers to one verse in the entire Revelation, which is in regards to proclaiming prophecy before the completion of a 1000 years. Any Baha'i can interpret anything whatever way they want, as long as they don't contradict the Writings of Abdul Baha and Shoghi Effendi and as long as they don't impose it. The UHJ does not interpret anything, actually. It's job is to keep the Baha'i community in shape and going.

Lastly, 

On 1/21/2017 at 3:53 PM, hadez803 said:

You see this is called a contradiction. You can't claim that no Manifestations will come in the future and at the same time claim that manifestations will come after a thousand years.

I meant here that anyone who proclaims to be a Manifestation during the Baha'i dispensation is a liar; however, after a 1000 years, then there's a chance he is saying the truth. There is no contradiction.

Best,

Hamzah

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On 1/21/2017 at 4:05 PM, Hamzah J. said:

No, it is not crazy. They are trying to create disunity. To keep the community united, they have to excommunicated. However, to be excommunicated, it takes a long time. Regarding Shoghi, well, you see, it was a time of war and Shoghi knows best about travel to Israel, since he remained in Israel, faithful to the holy land. It's an issue of safety. No one is forcing anyone anything. You can choose to follow Baha'u'llah's other son, but, according to mainstream belief, you will be considered a covenant breaker. It is no trivial issue (disuniting the faith).

It is not a matter of creating disunity. Take this poor person for example: excommunicated for stating she was a Muslim instead of Baha'i becasue she feared for her life: https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2016/04/choosing-motherhood-over-martyrdom/478641/

On 1/21/2017 at 4:05 PM, Hamzah J. said:

Also, to be honest, no, the UHJ rarely does anything in the first place. I joined the Baha'i Faith for many years and I have not seen any Baha'i organization telling me what to do. I asked crazy lots of questions, really. And they answered me.

Have you ever heard about the group of Baha'i academics running the Talisman group? threatened to be excommunicated, others disenrolled, forced to resign, or silenced... because they were exposing too many things the UHJ wanted to hide...

http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/bigquestions/talisman.html

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/tarc1196.htm

On 1/21/2017 at 4:05 PM, Hamzah J. said:

Regarding the quote in the Aqdas, it only refers to one verse in the entire Revelation, which is in regards to proclaiming prophecy before the completion of a 1000 years. Any Baha'i can interpret anything whatever way they want, as long as they don't contradict the Writings of Abdul Baha and Shoghi Effendi and as long as they don't impose it. The UHJ does not interpret anything, actually. It's job is to keep the Baha'i community in shape and going.

Read again: "Whoso interpreteth what hath been sent down from the heaven of Revelation, and altereth its evident meaning, he, verily, is of them that have perverted the Sublime Word of God, and is of the lost ones in the Lucid Book." (Baha'u'llah, Aqdas, no. 105)

On 1/21/2017 at 4:05 PM, Hamzah J. said:

I meant here that anyone who proclaims to be a Manifestation during the Baha'i dispensation is a liar; however, after a 1000 years, then there's a chance he is saying the truth. There is no contradiction.

The quote I provided clearly states all Manifestations have come to an end by the proclamation of Baha'u'llah and whoever makes a proclamation after him is a liar. He says nothing about this occuring during or after the Baha'i dispensation. He closes the probability of another Manifestation appearing once and for all... all while attacking the concept khatamiyat in Islam while he is practically making that same claim about himself.

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Hi,

Alright. So, yes, sometimes things are not fair. But that example doesn't represent what Baha'u'llah taught. We are not infallible and excommunicating her was not fair. To be honest, I don't believe the story. I'm pretty sure that if she was excommunicated, there had to be another reason.

And, why is this bothering you? Catholic excommunication happens. If you leave Islam, there is capital punishment, that is, if you are in a Muslim country. Disagreeing with the pope is a BIG thing in Catholic dogma; same here: a major infraction and deviation from the authority of the UHJ would result in excommunication. That is, saying that the UHJ has no authority; however, disagreeing with it in trivial matters such as Ruhi is OK.

Okay, so about those people. How are they silenced? All that Baha'is say is that what they are doing is wrong. Rejecting the UHJ is a deviation. Thus, Baha'is would be asked to not communicate with them. Interestingly, that is what Abdul Baha did. When people voiced against him, he just remained quiet. That is what we are doing: remaining quiet because we don't want arguments. We are not going to kill them or anything.

The other verse you quote lacks interpretation. If that is the only verse in the Baha'i literature about the coming of another Manifestation, then you'd be right. But, the overwhelming majority of Baha'i literature talks about the interpretation of "finality." It talks about the irrationality of the Christian belief that Jesus is the Son of God once and for all and no other prophet will come after Jesus. It talks about how to interpret the Qura'anic verse of the khatimiyat. And, thus, since this is a similar verse regarding "the finality of Baha'u'llah" if you wish to call it as such, then it should be interpreted in the same light in which the Islamic khatmiyyat and Christian belief is interpreted. Thus, yes, Baha'u'llah is the last, but he's also the first and there will be another. It's a vicious cycle.

Actually, have you ever read the Iqan? Because it will show you a different way to interpret all of this.

And the verse you quote, here is the explanation: (I'm sorry, I, earlier, mistake the verse you quoted with another one. What you quoted is not in reference to laying a claim before the expiration of 1000 years. (This is at the bottom)

Whoso interpreteth what hath been sent down from the heaven of Revelation, and altereth its evident meaning, he, verily, is of them that have perverted the Sublime Word of God, and is of the lost ones in the Lucid Book.
 
 
 
Whoso interpreteth what hath been sent down from the heaven of Revelation, and altereth its evident meaning
In several of His Tablets, Bahá'u'lláh affirms the distinction between allegorical verses, which are susceptible to interpretation, and those verses that relate to such subjects as the laws and ordinances, worship and religious observances, whose meanings are evident and which demand compliance on the part of the believers.
As explained in notes 145 and 184, Bahá'u'lláh designated 'Abdu'l-Bahá, His eldest Son, as His Successor and the Interpreter of His Teachings. 'Abdu'l-Bahá in His turn appointed His eldest grandson, Shoghi Effendi, to succeed Him as interpreter of the holy Writ and Guardian of the Cause. The interpretations of 'Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi are considered divinely guided and are binding on the Bahá'ís.
The existence of authoritative interpretations does not preclude the individual from engaging in the study of the Teachings and thereby arriving at a personal interpretation or understanding. A clear distinction is, however, drawn in the Bahá'í Writings between authoritative interpretation and the understanding that each individual arrives at from a study of its Teachings. Individual interpretations based on a person's understanding of the Teachings constitute the fruit of man's rational power and may well contribute to a greater comprehension of the Faith. Such views, nevertheless, lack authority. In presenting their personal ideas, individuals are cautioned not to discard the authority of the revealed words, not to deny or contend with the authoritative interpretation, and not to engage in controversy; rather they should offer their thoughts as a contribution to knowledge, making it clear that their views are merely their own.

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On 12/21/2016 at 1:53 PM, Hamzah J. said:

Salam! 

Please do not call the Baha'i Faith a cult, because it is not. Regardless, we do accept that Khatimiyyat of Risalah, but not Nubuwwa. We simply interpret differently. And, why do we reject Mirza Ghulam Ahmed? Because a prophet is measured by his or her fruits. What benefit has Ghulam Ahmed brought to humanity? What benefit has he brought by saying that Jesus went to Kashmir? Nothing. Utterly nothing. The Baha'i Faith's emphasis on unity is the fruit of the religion. His calls to the world leaders to unite before the world wars is a call for unity. And, now... look at this! We live in shame as we haven't answered the calls of God himself. (I am not saying Baha'u'llah is God, but his message is from God."

Able Faadhil, you mention a hadith. I told you my interpretation. But, let me ask you, how about the hadith of Imam Sadiq? The hadith that the Mahdi comes with a new book, and a new law?

And so the ahmadiya would accuse you of the same. In fact they actually call to unity or something exactly the same as your group.

Just to clarify, your group things the mahdi has already come, there are more prophets to come, and your figures such as Bab are a manifestation of God on earth, is this true?

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Hi,

Let's not talk about Ahmediya. It's not the topic. The topic is Baha'i Faith; not Ahmediya and I don't know much about it anyways.

And, we believe that the Bab was the spiritual return of the Mahdi and the beginning of the new cycle in prophethood. And, Baha'u'llah is the spiritual return of Jesus Christ. In 1000 years a new prophet will come, with a new revelation.

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On 1/20/2017 at 5:59 AM, Hamzah J. said:

1) First of all, I do not know much about Seth. However, if he did have to hide his religion, that doesn't mean he did not have any good fruits. Of course, he had to have a few followers, even if it was in secret. And, the fruits don't have to show during his only life time. They could be after his death. We remember him now for his fruits as a prophet. However, Mirza Ghulam was a different story. If the root is wrong, then everything is wrong. They accept a Sunni approach to the successor of Muhammad, which already is a deviation. We Baha'is accept the Shi'a approach. Secondly, just look at the Ahmedi sect. I'm not saying they are wrong, but just look at their practices! Ex communication, full control of members, etc. It is crazy. You know we Baha'is don't have this. Yes, we do ex communicate people who deviate from the covenant, but not people who leave. My brother left the Faith with no problem at all.

2) Baha'u'llah's purpose was not unity, really. Unity of mankind is an inevitable process. Baha'u'llah came as a mubashir and a nadhir, a warner of a proclaimer of happy tidings to all. Unity was the bishara; however, we need to do it right and this is what we warned. Of course, Baha'is won't be controlling the world when unity occurs; simply, we might offer suggestions from our holy writings to improve the united system.

3) Regarding the Khadtmeiyat; first of all, the Qur'an is the most important text in Islam. What I mentioned earlier about nabi and rasul could be irrelevant, since it is only a Baha'i response, but Baha'u'llah never mentioned it; in fact, Baha'u'llah says that Muhammad sealed the prophethood and the messenger-ship. However, Baha'u'llah did say, and I believe I have mentioned this earlier, that a prophet is the beginning and the last. The Qur'an says this, too. Adam was the first, but he was also the last.  Muhammad was the last but also the first. There is no beginning, no last. Baha'u'llah is Jesus, is Muhammad, is Adam. This a cycle never ending. A circle has no beginning and no end. 

4) Because Baha'is made it up to justify their claims. It's not accurate, since Baha'u'llah does not mention it.

5) Regarding the Mahdi, what do you think? Come on guys. If you blame me for misinterpreting something clear, then the Hadith I mentioned to you is as clear as the sun. what do you think "book" means. A "new" book? Clearly, a new revelation. A new "amr"? It's so clear. Now, I know what will you next. Why is it that sometimes you say something is metaphorical and sometimes say its literal. Here's an explanation: http://bahaiteachings.org/decoding-prophetic-code-one-bahai-example.

Thank you.

PS: please, if we were to have a proper conversation, don't call the Baha'i Faith a cult.

1. Thanks for acknowledging your ignorance about Prophet Shees (as).

An independent investigator would study about a subject which he is unaware of instead of commenting about it and also drawing baised conclusions from it in favour of his own ideology.

This is for your claim of being an independent investigator.

Secondly for rejection of Gulam Ahmed Qadiani you insist on fruits being measured. (Please refer your post on December 21) For being measured the fruits should be seen and also be attributed to the originator. But when you talk about Prophet Shees(as) (about whom by your own confession you don't know much) you make a wild assumption that his fruits showed after his death!!!!

Mr. Hamza is this an approach of an independent investigator?

An independent investigator will look at facts impartially and will make conclusions on their basis. In your case you are justifying everything just to confirm to your innovative ideology.

You don't adopt the Shia approach.
Shia approach is that they believe in the 12th Imam being alive and present. 

The Shia believe Prophet Muhammad(saw) to be the last Prophet.

Shias believe in physical Resurrection unlike the Baha'i. And this is another reason for your disbelief other than khatamiyat.

Its good that you have confessed that you excommunicate your members.( just like a cult would do.)

It is good that you don't have a government any where in the world other wise you would have made life hell for anyone who left your cult just as you make life hell for those you excommunicate.

Steven Scholl an ex-Bahai says 
...I received a letter from a Baha’i Continental Counsellor indicating that I was under threat of being declared a Covenant-breaker, the impact on me personally was less than on my family. My wife is a Baha’i as are many of her family members, . . . The very real threat of being declared a Covenant breaker meant my wife had to face the decision of joining me as a heretic or divorcing me so that she could maintain her relationships with her family and other lifelong friends. Since [my wife] had no intention of divorcing me, the choices then extended out to her family. Her sister would not refuse to socialize with us so she would automatically be declared a covenant breaker along with her husband and children. Many of my close Baha’i friends would also be faced with the decision of maintaining friendships or joining me as a heretic. The whole thing is absurd and quite medieval. But it does raise the issue which you point out so well; how anyone would want to belong to a group which is willing to act this way and be so cruel is beyond me. That is why I voluntarily left the religion. Not in order to escape punishment but because the Baha’i community had become such an unhealthy place spiritually. I was terribly saddened that my spiritual home of 25 years had turned into a prison and nightmare..................

Web: http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Scholl3

2. As regards Unity,
You have said in your latest post that:
"Baha'u'llah's purpose was not unity, really. Unity of mankind is an inevitable process. Baha'u'llah came as a mubashir and a nadhir, a warner of a proclaimer of happy tidings to all."

However on 22nd December you said:
"The Baha'i Faith's emphasis on unity is the fruit of the religion. His calls to the world leaders to unite before the world wars is a call for unity. And, now... look at this! We live in shame as we haven't answered the calls of God himself. (I am not saying Baha'u'llah is God, but his message is from God.)"

Your own words contradict your own words. This is shows that your claim of independent research is just a ploy to come amongst the Shia and do propaganda about your cult.

And you deserve to be called a cult as by rejecting Khatamiyat, Mahdaviyat as well physical Resurrection and adopting a barbaric and medivial practice like excommunication you no longer deserve to be called a faith.

3. Again thanks for confessing that 'Bahaullah' never mentioned what you have previously mentioned about "Nabi" and "Resool".

You have previously boasted about your knowledge of Arabic.

Definately you must then be knowing that the word "Nabiyyen" in the verse 40 of Surah Ahzab is a plural of "Nabi" means He(saw) was the last of the Prophets and not just the last Prophet.

So your wild and irrational argument that every Nabi is a first as well the last Prophet falls flat on its face.

I am also surprised that you are still harping on your invalid interpretation of Nabi and Resool inspite of very clear and categorical traditions quoted previously about Anbiya being the bigger group and every Resool being a Nabi and not vice versa. Thus the last Nabi will automatically be the last Resool also.

As per principles of independent research one must first put forward convincing evidence for rejection of the adversary's proof before continuing to harp on one's own ideas. By failing to reply to the Shia idea of Nabi and Resool and ignoring evidence in its support you have once again put a question mark about your integrity as an independent investigator.

4. Again thanks for scoring a self goal by confessing that the interpretation of Nabi and Resool is made up by the Baha'is and Bahaullah never mentioned it.
So if the Baha'i expect from the Shia that they should not understand their religion from the Ahlulbait(AS) but from the UHJ, it's a long hope which will never see the day of light.

5. Regarding the lone tradition about which you have continued harping inspite of evidence being presented for the weakness in its chain as well as presence of innumerable reliable traditions to the contrary again exposes your insincerity in the investigation of truth.

You expect us to accept your innovative interpretation of Nabi and Resool but reject our interpretation supported by innumerable reliable evidences!!!

Indeed poor is your judgement!!!

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On 1/22/2017 at 7:20 AM, Hamzah J. said:

Hi,

Let's not talk about Ahmediya. It's not the topic. The topic is Baha'i Faith; not Ahmediya and I don't know much about it anyways.

And, we believe that the Bab was the spiritual return of the Mahdi and the beginning of the new cycle in prophethood. And, Baha'u'llah is the spiritual return of Jesus Christ. In 1000 years a new prophet will come, with a new revelation.

So thats actually identical to ahmadiya.

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See how Baha'is treat those that disagree with the mainstream Baha'i sect and exert information control on them:

http://lavaleo.tripod.com/cgi-bin/ross.html

As you can see, one poor Baha'i decided that the mainstream Baha'i leadership was wrong. He was subsequently excommunicated and then all Baha'is were ordered:

"Anyone who receives a communication from Mr. Campbell should be advised to inform the National Spiritual Assembly immediately, to delete it unopened, and make no response."

These Independent Investigators of truth are also labelled as haters of light and sufferers from spiritual leprosy by Baha'i leaders:

" It is better not to read books by Covenant-breakers because they are haters of the Light, sufferers from a spiritual leprosy, so to speak. " ( Helen Bassett Hornby, Lights of Guidance: A Bahā’ī Reference File (New Delhi: Bahā’ī Publishing Trust, 1983), chap. XII, no. 628 )

Edited by hadez803
typo

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Hello Hadez,

(and everyone here)

I came here to see what you guys think of the Faith I've been in for so long. Seeing what you had to say made me think more about my faith and thanks for that. I mentioned that I have to study more about Shia Islam and Islam, in general. 

Regarding the messages you sent, I actually talked to the Baha'i community to why this is happening, because to be honest, so many people in my Baha'i community have chosen to follow Mirza Muhammad Ali or Mason Remey and we just avoid talking about religion to them. And to those who leave, we haven't treated them anywhere close to badly. So, yes, we are asked to delete messages from them, because we don't want to cause conflict. However, inflicting harm on them... that's not going to happen.

However, I do see your objections, of course, and will look further into it.

Till next time,

Peace.

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On 1/23/2017 at 3:06 AM, Hamzah J. said:

Hello Hadez,

(and everyone here)

I came here to see what you guys think of the Faith I've been in for so long. Seeing what you had to say made me think more about my faith and thanks for that. I mentioned that I have to study more about Shia Islam and Islam, in general. 

Regarding the messages you sent, I actually talked to the Baha'i community to why this is happening, because to be honest, so many people in my Baha'i community have chosen to follow Mirza Muhammad Ali or Mason Remey and we just avoid talking about religion to them. And to those who leave, we haven't treated them anywhere close to badly. So, yes, we are asked to delete messages from them, because we don't want to cause conflict. However, inflicting harm on them... that's not going to happen.

However, I do see your objections, of course, and will look further into it.

Till next time,

Peace.

Dear Hamzah,

I was following all this discussion from the beginning, thought to add some more points to Hadez's comment. Please find the same below. Just click the links and see how Baha'i Administration has control over Baha'i individuals, their activities etc. I can also show you (if you request) many examples where Baha'i books have been altered / changed by the Baha'i Administration, these are English books written by prominent Baha'is during the 'Heroic Age' of the Baha'i faith.

Link 1 :

Taheripg5.JPG

Link 2 :

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/talk.religion.bahai/vADOLX3mNKg

Link 3 :

I will be happy to add more links after reading your response.

Thank you for giving me opportunity to write something in this regard.

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Hello,

Thank you, Badi, for sharing these. I would look further into them. 

Do you think that this is what Baha'u'llah intended to see in the Baha'is; or are Baha'is not following their own laws and ordinances? 

Hamzah

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Hamza if you really are a simpleton as you are now projecting yourself (Initially you were projecting the image of a hardcore Baha'i), then this discussion must have made it clear to you that since no Prophet is to come after Muhammad(saw), so Bahaullah was a bogus propelled by the then czarist regime for creating disturbances in the then Persian empire and this same movement is now in the service of Zionism.

Following or not following a false prophet is of no consequence at all. A person will physically suffer in hell. Until of course he remains true to his intention of independent investigation and returns to the real last message of Allah (Islam).

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Farhana! I never said that! The Baha'i Faith is still the faith I have been in for so long. I have the right to doubt it. And, I am not projecting myself as a hardcore Baha'i. I was protecting and justifying my Faith. You guys have given me insight into things I could research. I am not rejecting it. I am just doubting it and I have the right to do that. 

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Hamza!
You started with this question:

"I am interested in creating a HEALTHY debate about whether or not Baha'u'llah and the Bab are truly prophets."

Now that you are doubting your beliefs, do contemplate seeking help from God.

Even I have been following this discussion keenly and this has further strengthened my belief in Shiaism.

May Allah guide you to the religion which is near to Him  so that you may save yourself from eternal condemnation.

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On 1/24/2017 at 1:16 AM, Hamzah J. said:

Hello,

Thank you, Badi, for sharing these. I would look further into them. 

Do you think that this is what Baha'u'llah intended to see in the Baha'is; or are Baha'is not following their own laws and ordinances? 

Hamzah

Dear Hamzah,

I see Baha'u'llah as an Imposter so I cannot reply what he intended to see for his followers. I see Baha'i faith as a world scam and I thank to the internet that it is exposed now. There are so many issues with it, that I can keep writing and writing. It is a total failure. I will just give an example from India where there were ~11000 Baha'is in 2001. This number dropped to ~4500 Baha'is in 2011 but Baha'is shamelessly claim that there are ~2.2 million Baha'is in India. I can provide verifiable evidences if you request.

If you want to know more about my findings just give me a signal and I will start posting the stuffs here.

All the best to you.

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On 1/24/2017 at 6:49 PM, Hamzah J. said:

Hi Badi,

Is it possible here to able to talk on a persona level? Instead of using the forum?

Thanks!

Why not? you can PM me. By that time see this interesting video :

All the best.

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22 hours ago, Hamzah J. said:

Hey Badi,

 

I don't know why but PMing you didn't work... can you PM me?

Ok. I am sending you a message till that time you check this out :

 

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@Hamzah J.

Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) is the last of the Prophets, there's no Prophet and Messenger after him.This is attested by the Qur'aan, Shi'ah sources and Sunni sources, thus we have a unity with regards to this... Then the cults like baha'iyyah and Ahamdiyyah comes along and try to change the interpretation (and reject the sahih ahaadith) because it's a stumbling block for their evil propaganda.

 

مَن كنتُ مَولاهُ فعليٌّ مَولاهُ وسَمِعتُهُ يقولُ أنتَ منِّي بمنزلةِ هارونَ مِن موسَى إلَّا أنَّهُ لا نبيَّ بعدي وسَمِعتُهُ يقولُ لأُعطيَنَّ الرَّايةَ اليومَ رجلًا يحبُّ اللَّهَ ورسولَهُ

الراوي:سعد بن أبي وقاص المحدث:الألباني المصدر:صحيح ابن ماجه الجزء أو الصفحة:98 حكم المحدث:صحيح

 

نت مني بمنزلةِ هارونَ من موسى . إلا أنه لا نبيَّ بعدي

الراوي:سعد بن أبي وقاص المحدث:مسلم المصدر:صحيح مسلم الجزء أو الصفحة:2404 حكم المحدث:صحيح

 

(Tafsir al-Baghaawi - 33:40, Tafsir Ibn al-Jawziy - 33:40) يريد لو لم أختم به النبيين لجعلت له ابناً يكون بعده نبياً

 

(Tafsir al-Baghaawi - 33:40)  وروي عن عطاء عن ابن عباس: أن الله تعالى لما حكم أن لا نبي بعده لم يعطه ولداً ذكراً يصير رجْلاً

 

Hassan al-Basri, who was a man amongst the salaf, said: "وخاتم النبيين  قال: ختم الله النبيين بمحمد صلى الله عليه وسلم، وكان آخر من بعث" - Ad-Durr al-Manthuur -  33:40

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Dear Brothers and Sisters:

Salamun Alaykum.

I happened to chance upon this topic whilst researching about another topic. The question is - Are Bab and Bahaullah prophets?

The answer is no.

History records them as opportunists who changed their position at every available opportunity. Islam is very clear that there will be no prophet AND messenger after the Holy Prophet of Islam (pbuh). Every verse, every tradition we have from the prophet says that he is the last prophet and messenger. Furthermore, he even condemned any person who would come forward claiming to be a new prophet or messenger.

Please see the following link: http://www.bahaiawareness.com/false_prophets.html

Also see: http://www.bahaiawareness.com/bahai14.html

Thanks,

Imran Shaykh

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On 1/12/2017 at 0:25 PM, Hamzah J. said:

Hey everyone.

I am so sorry for this late reply; I had to go back to the Emirates where ShiaChat is unfortunately blocked and censored.

Going back, I think that before I talk more about Baha'is and Shi'as, can you guys help me in understanding Shia Islam first? When I became a Baha'i I didn't consider all it's origins. I'm not saying Baha'is or Shi'as are right or wrong, but just as many of you made wrong claims about Baha'is, I think I have made claims about Shi'a beliefs from a very Baha'i perspective. 

In other words, I want to learn about Shi'a Islam from a Shi'a perspective. Anyone for help in where to start?

While you are a Bahai, you can also visit www.bahaiawareness.com which explains Bahai Faith from a Shiah and Sunni perspective.

Thanks

Imran Shaykh

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On 12/19/2016 at 5:47 PM, Qa'im said:

Please provide references - so for Daniel, for the Qa'im coming with a new book, and a reference to new cycles breaking the seal of prophethood.

"Were all the peoples of the earth to join together to harm a single one of the people of Bahá, they would find themselves powerless, for all that they see as harming Thy chosen ones is as light unto them, and as fire unto Thine enemies." (Bahá’u’lláh, Days of Remembrance 8:3)

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