.InshAllah.

Transgender Surgery

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Trans people strongly identify with the sex that is not their biological sex.  For example, a biologically male transgender person strongly believes that they are female.  They are a female trapped inside a male body.  They believe this so strongly that they pay for surgery to surgically remove their perfectly functioning male reproductive organ.  On the face of it, this seems like self mutilation.  

It might be useful to think about a neutral case:  Imagine someone who strongly believes that they are a one-handed person trapped inside a two-handed person's body.  They only ever use their right hand; their left hand feels alien to them, like its not actually part of their body.  When they look in the mirror and see their left hand, they feel very uncomfortable.   So they go and cut of their left hand.

Wouldnt that be mutilation? Of course it would.  But then there doesnt seem to be a relevant difference between the transgender case and the one-handed person case, so if the latter is mutilation, then so is the former.

You could argue that one difference is that in removing the left hand, you are removing a fully functional part of your body.  But the same holds if you remove female breasts or male reproductive organs.

Thoughts?

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I would argue that someone who thinks that they are a one-handed person in a two-handed persons body has very little ground to stand on. While both are examples of feeling outside the body you belong, another example could be believing you are a wolf, in a humans body.

However, why i say gender is different is precisely because of the human brain, and the psychology of sex. Your brain, the hormones, the way it is modelled greatly influence how you see and view your sex, which is why you'll find transgender people far more common, in fact, almost several million fold [i don't think i can even quantify how many more fold] more common than people thinking they are one handed born in a two handed persons body, or even believing they are a wolf in another persons body.

The latter are often people with mental disorders and psychiatric problems and this is seen in other areas of their life, whereas transgender people are often normal, and there is scientific backing of some sort to support the notion their brains or some sort of hormonal and polygenetic  combined with psychological problem could be behind why they feel as they do.

Bottom line is, it's a very interesting example but i think it's insufficient to compare the two and conclude anything because beyond both being cases where one believes they are in the wrong body, as examples they aren't suitable when you begin to pick each one apart.

 

 

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Just to add , there are those born with both genital organs, would you argue it is mutilation [and not in the technical sense, because circumcision is also mutilation]  but in the negative connotation of needless damage of a perfectly healthy functioning and proper form for the sake of a mental disorder?

We would argue no, there is a physical basis i.e two genitals, and this is why it's justify to help return the person to proper order. The same may apply for someone whose brain is of a gender their genitalia and outward sex is not matched to.

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Due to modern surgical and health advancements these transgender operations can be carried out, but what about the entire human history upto about 50 or so year ago.... What did the transgender people then? Infact, were there even any transgender people? I don't ever recall reading some history or article about some person in the 1500s or 1800s or 9th century complaining that they feel like they are trapped in the wrong body (if you have read such stuff then please tell me). 

Could it be that in the past 50 odd years our environment is causing this problem (pesticides, hormones/antibiotics in meats, chemicals etc.)? 

For some reason I can't help thinking of this verse when stumble upon this transgender issue 

[shakir 4:119] And most certainly I will lead them astray and excite in them vain desires, and bid them so that they shall slit the ears of the cattle, and most certainly I will bid them so that they shall alter Allah's creation; and whoever takes the Shaitan for a guardian rather than Allah he indeed shall suffer a manifest loss.

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Brothers and sisters really need to pick up a book or google search studies/articles and read before assuming things. A very poor argument inshallah (op). 

Edited by yusur317
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46 minutes ago, yusur317 said:

Brothers and sisters really need to pick up a book or google search studies/articles and read before assuming things. A very poor argument inshallah (op). 

I think this is a little harsh. His argument makes sense, and is reasonable, there's just more to consider, that's all.

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3 hours ago, .InshAllah. said:

You could argue that one difference is that in removing the left hand, you are removing a fully functional part of your body.  But the same holds if you remove female breasts or male reproductive organs.

But a one handed person is pretty unanimously seen as defective. Neither gender can be considered a defect. 

I'm trying to come up with a better analogy than amputation, but I'm drawing a blank. Tattooing? Body piercing? Leg lengthening surgery? 

Actually, yes, cosmetic surgery is a much better analogy. A person with a perfectly healthy nose decides they want a different nose. It might not be able to smell, but it will look the way they want. 

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20 minutes ago, uponthesunnah said:

I think this is a little harsh. His argument makes sense, and is reasonable, there's just more to consider, that's all.

Maybe I was. His arguement doesn't make much sense to me. I'll revise it tomorrow morning. I might be too tired to make sense of anything. 

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4 minutes ago, notme said:

But a one handed person is pretty unanimously seen as defective. Neither gender can be considered a defect. 

I'm trying to come up with a better analogy than amputation, but I'm drawing a blank. Tattooing? Body piercing? Leg lengthening surgery? 

Actually, yes, cosmetic surgery is a much better analogy. A person with a perfectly healthy nose decides they want a different nose. It might not be able to smell, but it will look the way they want. 

Well in cases which place a risk for greater damage of functionality, surgeons should turn patients down. Sense of smell should not be lost permanently post-op. In cases where issues arise, like breathing problems, patients undergo secondary rhinoplasty. I have seen cosmetic surgery do wonders for both brothers and sisters. It gives them a confidence boost and consequently an improvement in quality of life. It can effect all aspects of life. Shallow things can ruin people (e.g. depression), especially in a superficial world like our own. No exceptions in the muslim shia community. Though care must be taken in identifying individuals with body dysmorphic disorder.

Alhamdulilah we are happy and healthy the way we are, but let's not undermine what others are going through. 

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@yusur317 the confidence boost that patients get from cosmetic surgery, would that be similar to the confidence boost certain individuals might get from gender reassignment surgery? 

 

35 minutes ago, yusur317 said:

Though care must be taken in identifying individuals with body dysmorphic disorder.

And I suspect this probably would be something to watch for if a person is seeking gender reassignment surgery too. Don't the doctors have criteria that the patient must meet before surgery will be done? Psychological tests and mental health history and all that? 

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Aren't these types of surgeries actually promoted in Iran?  In fact, Iran does more gender reassignment surgeries than any other country except for Thailand.  

There are some legitimate cases where I think surgery is an option, such as androgen insensitivity syndrome and congenital adrenal hyperplasia.

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Thoughts?  This kind of garbage is perverted imaginings by seriously underdeveloped personalities.

3 hours ago, notme said:

But a one handed person is pretty unanimously seen as defective. Neither gender can be considered a defect. 

I'm trying to come up with a better analogy than amputation, but I'm drawing a blank. Tattooing? Body piercing? Leg lengthening surgery? 

Actually, yes, cosmetic surgery is a much better analogy. A person with a perfectly healthy nose decides they want a different nose. It might not be able to smell, but it will look the way they want. 

Analogy or Definition?  How about "self-defacing" ?

1 hour ago, coldcow said:

Aren't these types of surgeries actually promoted in Iran?  In fact, Iran does more gender reassignment surgeries than any other country except for Thailand.  :sign_no: You need to provide a citation for this assertion.

 

There are some legitimate cases where I think surgery is an option, such as androgen insensitivity syndrome and congenital adrenal hyperplasia.   How about for a morphadite ?

:mod:   WARNING   :fever: <---Sick news follows:  

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6794/sex-change-children     available at age 12

And in a continuance of twisted emotional imaginings:  http://www.newstarget.com/2016-11-04-once-banned-sex-with-robots-conference-taking-place-at-london-university.html

From a television report this past year, l know that these "sexbots' are already being sold. This maybe only a fad or a niche market in-the-future because of advances in mind/mental research which will lead to "extreme sex" substitutes as mildly portrayed in the movie Brainstorm (about 1983, Natalie Woods' last film release).  :offtopic:   I won't explain this except to Mod-approved adults. Inferences can be found with a little on-line research.

The "Amerikan-first" was Christine Jorgensen beginning in 1951 in Copenhagen. Most of this was done in Sweden (in the 60s and 70s "go to Sweden" and like-expressed referred to this).

Edited by hasanhh
Christine

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7 hours ago, E.L King said:

No one is born as a tranny

People are born with all kinds of disorders and mutations, a number of which primarily only affect the micro or macrostructure of the brain. People are arguing that transexuality is also one of these conditions whereby the connections that map together to define gender do not correlate withe the external sex.

If people can be born with both sexual organs, no sexual organs, male born with female characteristics due to hormonal problems, and all other kinds of mutations, why can't people be born with a brain disorder?

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9 hours ago, notme said:

 

Actually, yes, cosmetic surgery is a much better analogy. A person with a perfectly healthy nose decides they want a different nose. It might not be able to smell, but it will look the way they want. 

I would argue that a person with a deviated septum is a better example. Transexuals have some scientific backing for what they say, i.e your brain is as important a 'sex' organ than the external, and in transexuals, there is a clear difference in their micro-structure and how it maps, and so they can not be considered to have perfectly healthy biology, like someone would a normal nose may have.

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52 minutes ago, uponthesunnah said:

People are born with all kinds of disorders and mutations, a number of which primarily only affect the micro or macrostructure of the brain. People are arguing that transexuality is also one of these conditions whereby the connections that map together to define gender do not correlate withe the external sex.

If people can be born with both sexual organs, no sexual organs, male born with female characteristics due to hormonal problems, and all other kinds of mutations, why can't people be born with a brain disorder?

Because it is against nature.

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1 hour ago, uponthesunnah said:

Transexuals have some scientific backing for what they say,

Maybe. I don't know. I've only known one "transexual" person in my life, and he/she was mentally ill and had been molested as a child, so one might question the stability of his/her thought processes. 

Not having any examples to the contrary, I'd default to trusting the judgement of doctors and scientists, and at least some Islamic scholars. 

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21 hours ago, uponthesunnah said:

Just to add , there are those born with both genital organs, would you argue it is mutilation [and not in the technical sense, because circumcision is also mutilation]  but in the negative connotation of needless damage of a perfectly healthy functioning and proper form for the sake of a mental disorder?

We would argue no, there is a physical basis i.e two genitals, and this is why it's justify to help return the person to proper order. The same may apply for someone whose brain is of a gender their genitalia and outward sex is not matched to.

I appreciate your posts uponthesunnah.  In the case you mention I wouldnt view it as mutilation because it is fixing a physical abnormality.  Having both sexual organs is physically abnormal.  

Is someone who has male gonads physically abnormal in virtue of having male gonads?  I would argue that if they have XY chromosomes (ie are genetically male), have the usual male hormones, the usual male body build, the usual male organs and secondary sexual characteristics, then their having male gonads does not constitute an abnormality.

Now maybe they strongly identify with the female sex, and (per the useful video you posted), have some female brain characteristics.  What does that mean?  Honestly Im not sure - I need to look more into this.  For one, I would want evidence that the female brain characteristics did not develop later on.  We know that the brain is plastic, and changes due to environmental influences.  If these changes came later, and are not natural, then this confirms that the person is truly naturally male.  The problem is in the brain not the body, but people are trying to fix this by cutting off healthy parts of the body which seems wrong.  If you have any papers/videos about this then I'd be interested to see.

 

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On 12/16/2016 at 0:37 AM, hasanhh said:

Thoughts?  This kind of garbage is perverted imaginings by seriously underdeveloped personalities.

Analogy or Definition?  How about "self-defacing" ?

:mod:   WARNING   :fever: <---Sick news follows:  

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6794/sex-change-children     available at age 12

And in a continuance of twisted emotional imaginings:  http://www.newstarget.com/2016-11-04-once-banned-sex-with-robots-conference-taking-place-at-london-university.html

From a television report this past year, l know that these "sexbots' are already being sold. This maybe only a fad or a niche market in-the-future because of advances in mind/mental research which will lead to "extreme sex" substitutes as mildly portrayed in the movie Brainstorm (about 1983, Natalie Woods' last film release).  :offtopic:   I won't explain this except to Mod-approved adults. Inferences can be found with a little on-line research.

The "Amerikan-first" was Christine Jorgensen beginning in 1951 in Copenhagen. Most of this was done in Sweden (in the 60s and 70s "go to Sweden" and like-expressed referred to this).

Sources, as requested:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7259057.stm
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/04/iran-sex-change-operation_n_1568604.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rAaBJoOqpk
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/10/iran-subsidizes-sex-change-surgery.html

Regarding your question about "morphadite" I think you mean hermaphrodite.  That's not an actual condition, it's the result of ambiguous genitalia due to condition such as congenital adrenal hyperplasia or when internal organs don't match external genitalia (androgen insensitvity syndrome).

 

Edited by coldcow

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@coldcow

My age is showing. Originally, morphrodite had the same meaning.

As the HuffPo article said, Thailand has more of these mutilations.

What l read in the one article, from a fatwa and 6+ psychiatrist recommendations, this is more like a treatment for mental illness.

Thanx for the references.

 

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49 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

As the HuffPo article said, Thailand has more of these mutilations.

What l read in the one article, from a fatwa and 6+ psychiatrist recommendations, this is more like a treatment for mental illness.

Thanx for the references.

 

Right, I said in my original post that Iran was 2nd only to Thailand.  

No problem.

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