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@The_Bible, I was looking at your signature... Can you answer my question? So that I can understand the meanings of your signature:

"John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. "

How can we say "word" as beginning while that "word" was with already existing reality mentioned as God?

Secondly, at first place, word has been mentioned as something other that God "and the Word was with God" , In the very next place the "Word" became "God" (and the Word was God). It doesn't make sense to me, can you please elaborate?

To avoid derailing this thread, I request you to answer my question is a new thread.

Peace!

[MOD NOTE: This post was split off to create a new thread.]

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According to my biblical notes this Gospel's first paragraph contradicts Surah 18:51.(Didn't second check right now).  Having/Keeping  it also served the early Churches' purpose of contradicting the Heretics because those sick-in-the-head-heretics wandered in meaningless bablings.

Use the OT. In the Beginning the God of Noah-swt said "Be"

The Word was with/of God

The blasphemy, -whether Judaic, Christian or Muslim- is in the "word was god" because who Allah-swt is has never been revealed, any more than a name has (99 Attributes revealed). One of these, al-Haqq, also means Allah-swt is the Only Reality/Truth. Which is quite a lot more than a immaterial 'word'.

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12 hours ago, andres said:

Dont try to understand everything as litterally written.

I understand things by observing them. I have asked my Christian friends to elaborate so that I can get to the hidden meanings in this verse.

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It is rather cryptic and likely to be understood differently. Is see it as a prologue, telling that Jesus was and is God himself, not created, always have existed. John gives a different view on Jesus than do the other 3 Gospels.

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21 minutes ago, andres said:

It is rather cryptic and likely to be understood differently. Is see it as a prologue, telling that Jesus was and is God himself, not created, always have existed. John gives a different view on Jesus than do the other 3 Gospels.

Can you point out those specific verses of other 3 Gospels? 

The verses in Chapter John are words of God or these are written by human? What I knew is that it is written by a Christian named John, the contents of the book indicate quite clearly that the author was not the John who was one of the twelve disciples of Jesus, for it contains no direct personal references of the type that one would expect from an intimate associate of Jesus. 

If this is true, why this Gospel is included in the divine communication?
 

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There is nothing in the 3 other Gospels that looks like the prologue in John.

The entire Bible is written by humans. God has never written a book himself as far as we know. We do not know if John was a disciple or not. Most expert believe he was not. The Gospels were written in order to preserve the message of Jesus as the generation of eyewitnesses was about to vanish. The 4 gospels are the only gospels from the first century, and used by the Christian Churches as defense for their original belief as so called "heretic gospels" began to show up in the second century. The 4th century Christian Canon, confirmed this tradition.

Edited by andres

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On December 7, 2016 at 1:55 AM, Engineer73 said:

@The_Bible, I was looking at your signature... Can you answer my question? So that I can understand the meanings of your signature:

"John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. "

How can we say "word" as beginning while that "word" was with already existing reality mentioned as God?

Secondly, at first place, word has been mentioned as something other that God "and the Word was with God" , In the very next place the "Word" became "God" (and the Word was God). It doesn't make sense to me, can you please elaborate?

To avoid derailing this thread, I request you to answer my question is a new thread.

Peace!

[MOD NOTE: This post was split off to create a new thread.]

Isaiah 44:6 - Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Revelation 22:13 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Revelation (1:17-18) - And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

God is mentioned as the beginning throughout the Bible. It is a title attributed to him. Before God, or before the beginning, is no such thing bc nothing is before God, and without him there is no beginning.

Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Quran 36:82 - His command is only when He intends a thing that He says to it, "Be," and it is. So exalted is He in whose hand is the realm of all things, and to Him you will be returned.

How can the word be at the very beginning in existance with God? Bc the word already resides with God. That is like the Quran verse that mentions God only says "Be" and it is. Before God speaks he already knows what he will say, that would be his mind, and the mind is part of God bc that is how he is "all knowing". Is basically setting you up to firstly question who is the word, then it tells you where the word was, and after it reveals that the word was God all along.

John (1:2-3) - The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.     

 

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6 minutes ago, The_Bible said:

How can the word be at the very beginning in existance with God? Bc the word already resides with God. That is like the Quran verse that mentions God only says "Be" and it is. Before God speaks he already knows what he will say, that would be his mind, and the mind is part of God bc that is how he is "all knowing". Is basically setting you up to firstly question who is the word, then it tells you where the word was, and after it reveals that the word was God all along.

Thank you for explanation of your signature verse.

We know Jesus as a word of God, Quran speaks about him like that:

"When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah)". (3:45)

"O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak against Allah, but the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three" (4:171)


Your "mind" analogy is interesting, can I ask few questions about that?



 

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1 hour ago, Engineer73 said:

"O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak against Allah, but the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three" (4:171)

Your "mind" analogy is interesting, can I ask few questions about that?



 

Quran 4:171 - Ya ahla alkitabi lataghloo fee deenikum wala taqooloo AAala Allahiilla alhaqqa innama almaseehu AAeesaibnu maryama rasoolu Allahi wakalimatuhu alqahaila maryama waroohun minhu faaminoo billahiwarusulihi wala taqooloo thalathatun intahookhayran lakum innama Allahu ilahun wahidunsubhanahu an yakoona lahu waladun lahu ma fee assamawatiwama fee al-ardi wakafa billahiwakeela

I have heard that, that verse doesn't mention Jesus was "only", or "but a messenger" of Allah. It mentions him as a prophet of Allah, and "roohun minhu" means that he is a spirit of God. Is there a website that transliterates it in English exactly with no extra input?

Quran 3:7 - He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

This is why Allah said, (seeking Al-Fitnah) meaning, they seek to misguide their following by pretending to prove their innovation by relying on the Qur'an -- the Mutashabih of it -- but, this is proof against and not for them. For instance, Christians might claim that ﴿`Isa is divine because﴾ the Qur'an states that he is Ruhullah and His Word, which He gave to Mary, all the while ignoring Allah's statements ― Ibn Kathir 

If the commentator uses an example of Christians being able to use a passage from the Quran to claim that Jesus is divine due to him being "Ruhullah" and word of God. Then what is left to conclude from those passages when bible already claims that God creates with his word and is eternal?    

And yes you can. 

Edited by The_Bible

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1 hour ago, The_Bible said:

1) Quran 4:171 - Ya ahla alkitabi lataghloo fee deenikum wala taqooloo AAala Allahiilla alhaqqa innama almaseehu AAeesaibnu maryama rasoolu Allahi wakalimatuhu alqahaila maryama waroohun minhu faaminoo billahiwarusulihi wala taqooloo thalathatun intahookhayran lakum innama Allahu ilahun wahidunsubhanahu an yakoona lahu waladun lahu ma fee assamawatiwama fee al-ardi wakafa billahiwakeela

I have heard that, that verse doesn't mention Jesus was "only", or "but a messenger" of Allah. It mentions him as a prophet of Allah, and "roohun minhu" means that he is a spirit of God. Is there a website that transliterates it in English exactly with no extra input?

Quran 3:7 - He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

This is why Allah said, (seeking Al-Fitnah) meaning, they seek to misguide their following by pretending to prove their innovation by relying on the Qur'an -- the Mutashabih of it -- but, this is proof against and not for them. For instance, Christians might claim that ﴿`Isa is divine because﴾ the Qur'an states that he is Ruhullah and His Word, which He gave to Mary, all the while ignoring Allah's statements ― Ibn Kathir 

If the commentator uses an example of Christians being able to use a passage from the Quran to claim that Jesus is divine due to him being "Ruhullah" and word of God. Then what is left to conclude from those passages when bible already claims that God creates with his word and is eternal?    

2) And yes you can. 

First of all, thank you for allowing me to question.

Should I understand the 1st part of your post as a warning that if i tried to question yours book, you will question mine? :) 

Well I would wellcome that, you can ask your questions about Quran anytime. New questions always helps to learn. 

Now back to your "mind" analogy and i quote it:

3 hours ago, The_Bible said:

Quran 36:82 - His command is only when He intends a thing that He says to it, "Be," and it is. So exalted is He in whose hand is the realm of all things, and to Him you will be returned.

How can the word be at the very beginning in existance with God? Bc the word already resides with God. That is like the Quran verse that mentions God only says "Be" and it is. Before God speaks he already knows what he will say, that would be his mind, and the mind is part of God bc that is how he is "all knowing". Is basically setting you up to firstly question who is the word, then it tells you where the word was, and after it reveals that the word was God all along.

The one reason to question your analogy is that you have presented a verse of Quran in support of it.

We both agree on a point that the beginning is God "Huwal Awwal" 57:3 Quran & Isaiah 44:6 Bible. Our disagrement starts where you start dividing God into parts :) like you said "mind is a part of God", in this sense mouth, hands, eyes etc will also be required because according to you when He require mind for keeping ideas or plans, a mouth needed for speaking that "Be (kun)" and eyes to observe whether everything happening according to his plan.

We do not put the infinite reality (God) into a finite body. If you check all your arguments for proving the existence of God. You talk about a Supreme Being, an Ever-Living reality which is a necessity (wajib-ul-wajood) Who never begins to exist. This is a concept of infinite being, how can you make him finite by declaring the prerequisites (like He must have mind, or body) of something for Him? How can you divide an infinite being?

I have purposely avoided discussing the verse 36:82, will include the scripture in this discussion later on.

 

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1 hour ago, Engineer73 said:

First of all, thank you for allowing me to question.

Should I understand the 1st part of your post as a warning that if i tried to question yours book, you will question mine? :) 

Well I would wellcome that, you can ask your questions about Quran anytime. New questions always helps to learn.

Yea, no problem.

There are too many religions, opinions, beliefs for all of us to be correct. Especially, when we all say contradicting statements about GOD. 

That is why there HAS to be ONE right answer bc such thing as absolute truth exists, and if it doesn't, how can you be absolutely sure about anything?

That being said we both cannot be right, but one.

 

1 hour ago, Engineer73 said:

Now back to your "mind" analogy and i quote it:

The one reason to question your analogy is that you have presented a verse of Quran in support of it.

We both agree on a point that the beginning is God "Huwal Awwal" 57:3 Quran & Isaiah 44:6 Bible. Our disagrement starts where you start dividing God into parts :) like you said "mind is a part of God", in this sense mouth, hands, eyes etc will also be required because according to you when He require mind for keeping ideas or plans, a mouth needed for speaking that "Be (kun)" and eyes to observe whether everything happening according to his plan.

We do not put the infinite reality (God) into a finite body. If you check all your arguments for proving the existence of God. You talk about a Supreme Being, an Ever-Living reality which is a necessity (wajib-ul-wajood) Who never begins to exist. This is a concept of infinite being, how can you make him finite by declaring the prerequisites (like He must have mind, or body) of something for Him? How can you divide an infinite being?

I have purposely avoided discussing the verse 36:82, will include the scripture in this discussion later on.

I believe God can be one and still have all these attributes bc it does not take anything away from his infinite power. Why can't God be described in many ways and still be referred to as one? If God cannot be described through a human perspective then how would we be able to relate to his guidance? Muslims describe him with 99 names.

John 4:24 - God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth

God to us is a spirit, and a spirit doesn't cease to exist if it was created, referring to God of course he just IS. That is why when we put God in a ''finite body'' it is not the flesh that we look at but the mind, spirit, and words that come out of his teachings. We judge spiritually not physically, and when we do, we still acknowledge his spirit manifesting. 

1 Corinthians 2:13 - Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

Edited by The_Bible

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1 hour ago, The_Bible said:

believe God can be one and still have all these attributes bc it does not take anything away from his infinite power. Why can't God be described in many ways and still be referred to as one? If God cannot be described through a human perspective then how would we be able to relate to his guidance? Muslims describe him with 99 names.

Well this is not the answer. Question was how can you divide an infinity?

We agreed on that the nature of God is infinite. Is there a possibility (imkaan) to divide an infinite being? Lets be logical & rational in our approach. 

I agree with you that God cannot be described through a human perspective. The maximum reach of our intellect is to conclude the existence of something which is supreme in knowledge & power. 

Your next question "how would we be able to relate to his guidance?" You know that from Adam to Mosas, how He arranged the system of guidance. 

But leave all the other matters, we need to discuss the nature of God & you have my question. How can you divide an infinite being? 

I think you have to make that thing finite in any effort of dividing. Do some math now :)

God is Ever-Living, means infinite. If you make him finite, you will take away His attribute (i.e., Ever-Living). And that is what happen when you say Jesus as infinite being, you grab the Ever-Living attribute of God, and in that manner your God took a virgin birth & even taste death as well. 

How strange is that the Creator of life and death, took birth & taste death as well. And you make it happen by contaminating the very concept of One God which is an infinite reality.

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6 hours ago, Engineer73 said:

Well this is not the answer. Question was how can you divide an infinity?

We agreed on that the nature of God is infinite. Is there a possibility (imkaan) to divide an infinite being? Lets be logical & rational in our approach. 

I agree with you that God cannot be described through a human perspective. The maximum reach of our intellect is to conclude the existence of something which is supreme in knowledge & power. 

I think you have to make that thing finite in any effort of dividing. Do some math now :)

God is Ever-Living, means infinite. If you make him finite, you will take away His attribute (i.e., Ever-Living). And that is what happen when you say Jesus as infinite being, you grab the Ever-Living attribute of God, and in that manner your God took a virgin birth & even taste death as well. 

How strange is that the Creator of life and death, took birth & taste death as well. And you make it happen by contaminating the very concept of One God which is an infinite reality.

You yourself are contradicting your statement when you say that God is Ever-Living & infinite, but cannot be divided into infinte parts, not being able to stay infinite bc he APPEARS like less. This means that the issue lies on our individual perspective based on our religious theologies. Why do you put limits on a God that is limitless? 

You can divide God into infinite pieces ETERNALLY bc he is everlasting, bc one does not understand it means that they try to FIT God into their human logical minds and we cant do that.

John 17:14 - I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Ephesians 6:12 - For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

From a human persective it would seem logical that something infinite cannot be divided, but if you consider that God is a spiritual entity, it does not mean God has to stay the same when he can change maintaining the same being. For example, God can change emotions being angry, jealous, pleased, sad etc etc. while still being the same God & spirit. Notice how he says that the word he speaks not being from this wordly realm as well.

Spirits does not consume gravity, weight, SPACE or anything of that nature because it is not the physical realm that YOU would call reality. I do not think one can reach heaven of God by trying to fly towards it IN THIS PHYSYCAL BODY. Another example would be the amount of angels able to dance or fit in the head of a pin. That would be infiniteless bc it is, again, not physical but spiritual.

Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:19 - For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

2 Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

God did not create (sin) death in Christian theology, humanity brought it into the world bc we disobeyed. That theology is the pride that Christians got bc of God's grace he has become sin (death) as a sacrfice for our reconcilement. Whereas Quran, Allah speaks about O all knowing, O all merciful, O hearer, O almighty, but lacks the same grace of the God of the Bible, which btw was prophesied.

 

 

 

Edited by The_Bible

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2 hours ago, The_Bible said:

You can divide God into infinite pieces ETERNALLY bc he is everlasting, bc one does not understand it means that they try to FIT God into their human logical minds and we cant do that.

Well my brother in humanity, brother in the name of God, the possibility of dividing an infinite is zero. This is what our intellect dictates & logic dictates. These two things are those with which we rationalize the existence of an infinite being, The God.

We can only debate here to understand the nature of our differences on the nature of God. What I have learned is that the nature of our differences are based on logical fallacies.

2 hours ago, The_Bible said:

From a human persective it would seem logical that something infinite cannot be divided, but if you consider that God is a spiritual entity, it does not mean God has to stay the same when he can change maintaining the same being. For example, God can change emotions being angry, jealous, pleased, sad etc etc. while still being the same God & spirit. Notice how he says that the word he speaks not being from this wordly realm as well.

Thanks for accepting that logically we cannot divide something infinite..

Now we need to see spiritual sphere logically. Is there any possibility of finding likeness of God at any level? Whether material or spiritual? By likeness, I mean a being infinite in nature?

2 hours ago, The_Bible said:

God did not create (sin) death in Christian theology, humanity brought it into the world bc we disobeyed.

If so, then who is the creator of death? or do you mean we create death by doing sin?

 

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1 hour ago, Engineer73 said:

Well my brother in humanity, brother in the name of God, the possibility of dividing an infinite is zero. This is what our intellect dictates & logic dictates. These two things are those with which we rationalize the existence of an infinite being, The God.

We can only debate here to understand the nature of our differences on the nature of God. What I have learned is that the nature of our differences are based on logical fallacies.

We do not rationalize the existance of God, we merely believe in it, aka a faith. No one understands how God always existed before anything, just like no one can understand the actual substance of gravity. We know what gravity does, but we can't grab a jar of it, or paint it blue. Therefore, it is only a faith.

Dividing Infinity will always remain zero and that goes exactly to my point. Dividing an infinity, will never create a new infinity, (hence why the outcome is 0), but rather be the VERY same infinity that you based it from the very start.

So when we say trinity how can we be adding polythiesm when we claim all those three are 1? (bc of the ONE GOD we based it from). That is equivalent to 0 bc we never created nothing a new God. It cannot be a logical fallacy when you yourself said God was infinite, and if we were to divide God, what would that 0 represent?

1 hour ago, Engineer73 said:

Thanks for accepting that logically we cannot divide something infinite..

Now we need to see spiritual sphere logically. Is there any possibility of finding likeness of God at any level? Whether material or spiritual? By likeness, I mean a being infinite in nature?

If so, then who is the creator of death? or do you mean we create death by doing sin?

 

Yw.

Yes. there is a possibly, that is what the holy ghost/spirit is for. Holy spirit allows God to dwell in us and we in him. Jesus said he will give us a comforter that will abideth for us FOREVER. If that comforter is indeed God then there is in fact a infinite spirit living inside of the born again Christian. 

Psalm 82:6 - I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

John 10:34 - Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

A demi-god is a human inherited as a god by a fatherly God. That term fits us perfectly, but ofc, goes strictly against Islam. Anybody can be inherited to God by becoming his children. (Jesus said "I said" basically confirming he is God btw).

Many Christians don't bring this up but we are gods, not THE GOD, but gods, a demi-god to be more specific. The Jews were also called gods as well but not anymore. Why would Islam now teach Allah doesn't have children? 

Eve & Adam were the creator of death from that one sin. They brought death into the world and that is why we all need a savior to cleanse us from our sins.

What makes you think a person can just ask for forgiveness with no sacrifice? If Islam is so similar to Judaism why isn't animal sacrifices being done for forgiveness of your sins?

Edited by The_Bible

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2 hours ago, The_Bible said:

We do not rationalize the existance of God, we merely believe in it, aka a faith. No one understands how God always existed before anything, just like no one can understand the actual substance of gravity. We know what gravity does, but we can't grab a jar of it, or paint it blue. Therefore, it is only a faith.

:) You can say that you cannot see gravity, You "KNOW" it as a fact. By "Knowing", we mean that we can rationalize the existence of gravity, we can give reason & logic for its existence & we can prove its existence. The same thing we do when we prove the existence of God by means of logic & reason.

2 hours ago, The_Bible said:

Dividing Infinity will always remain zero and that goes exactly to my point. Dividing an infinity, will never create a new infinity, (hence why the outcome is 0), but rather be the VERY same infinity that you based it from the very start.

What I have said in my comment is that the "possibility" of dividing an infinite being is zero. If you ever try to do that, the result will also be infinite. I can prove this mathematically but it is common sense too. How can you imagine a quantity or quality who does not have any boundaries? If you try to divide infinity by a number other than zero, the result will not be zero but infinite. While dividing infinity with zero would mean that you are nullifying the infinity itself.

 

2 hours ago, The_Bible said:

So when we say trinity how can we be adding polythiesm when we claim all those three are 1?

 Impossibility of dividing an infinite & producing the finite results dictates that.

 

2 hours ago, The_Bible said:

Yes. there is a possibly, that is what the holy ghost/spirit is for. Holy spirit allows God to dwell in us and we in him. Jesus said he will give us a comforter that will abideth for us FOREVER. If that comforter is indeed God then there is in fact a infinite spirit living inside of the born again Christian. 

So you're saying "Holy ghost/spirit" is something which puts an infinite into the finite?
Analyze you statement again brother, You're saying "Holy spirit allows God to dwell in us". And if I ask what is holy spirit, your answer will be "God". So for me, your statement would becomes like that "God allows God to dwell in us".  We need to ask here, are there two gods? And if we add here your concept of "God the son", then these would be three different entities & three different existence levels. Hence this is an effort of putting an infinite supreme being  into a finite realm. And your statement not ends here, you also said "and we in him".

2 hours ago, The_Bible said:

A demi-god is a human inherited as a god by a fatherly God. That term fits us perfectly, but ofc, goes strictly against Islam. Anybody can be inherited to God by becoming his children. (Jesus said "I said" basically confirming he is God btw).

By demi-god, you means a being with partial or lesser divine status, such as a minor deity, the offspring of a god and a mortal, or a mortal raised to divine rank.

Is there anything left brother? This is what I was trying to say. This is where you divide an infinite being, turning Him into finite beings. While you know very well that God (which you call god the father) is a Supreme Being, infinite in nature. I don't need to involve scripture in this discussion, It will become more easy for me to prove that the holy ghost & Jesus are not the gods.

Anyway, I am thankful to you that you have allowed me to question some important things and no doubt i have learned with this discussions. Being a human and being a believer, I respect you with the right to disagree & you have the same rights. I end up this debate with my prayers which I hope is your prayers too, may the Almighty hastens the arrival of Jesus the son of Mary, so that he settle the disputes among us and guide us to the right path.  

Many thanks once again,

Peace.
 

Edited by Engineer73

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On 12/9/2016 at 9:31 AM, The_Bible said:

Eve & Adam were the creator of death from that one sin. They brought death into the world and that is why we all need a savior to cleanse us from our sins.

May I contnue this discussion with reference to the quoted part? 

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The word (in spanish we say the verb) is Jesus Christ; in the bible there are several names for referring to him, for example, the lion of Judah, king of kings and lord of lords, the offspring of David, God's Angel, among others; one of them is the word, it implies that in the beginning (before the creation of the universe or the creation of all) there was nothing but God and Jesus Christ (I guess the holy ghost too, although it is not mentioned), and anything else, and in some way we can't understand completely God and Jesus Christ are the same.

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27 minutes ago, Nataly said:

and in some way we can't understand completely God and Jesus Christ are the same.

So, the assertion of triune nature of god is a result of misunderstanding? Is this you want to say?

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 @Salsabeel no, it's not a result of a misunderstanding, but that for we, human beings, is beyond of our comprenhension how God and Jesus Christ are the same person.

Edited by Nataly

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4 minutes ago, Nataly said:

 @Salsabeel no, it's not a result of a misunderstanding, but that for we, human beings, is beyond of our comprenhension how God and Jesus Christ are the same person.

Means???

Do you think Jesus is not the creation? 

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On ‎7‎-‎12‎-‎2016 at 9:33 PM, andres said:

Dont try to understand everything as litterally written.

One can ponder a Thousand years about this one sentence but it actually is a mystery.

The only thing one can conclude is to accept that according to this Jesus is God. It's still not logical then but that's the message.

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On 6/3/2017 at 3:54 PM, Salsabeel said:

Means???

Do you think Jesus is not the creation? 

Before Jesus existed as a human being he was simply God, YHWH, Elohim etc etc., so he was created via the Holy Spirit dwelling in Mary as a virgin and entering the Earth as any other regular human through birth. So Jesus always existed as God bc Jesus comes from the Holy Spirit and you could say he is God/Holy Spirit incarnated in the Flesh.

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12 minutes ago, The_Bible said:

so he was created via the Holy Spirit dwelling in Mary as a virgin and entering the Earth as any other regular human through birth. So Jesus always existed as God bc Jesus comes from the Holy Spirit and you could say he is God/Holy Spirit incarnated in the Flesh.

Ok, he is a god which is created.

Thanks for explanation.

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