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1 hour ago, Enlightened Follower said:

Religion and actions are different the latter you have more control of.

No they dont. there are gay people out there who dont have control over their homosexuality, and are you saying atheists have no control over their atheism? 

 

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15 hours ago, Enlightened Follower said:

If they are Vedic Hindus then they are monotheists.

Additionally their parents raised them as Hindu and what if they grew up not being aware of Islam?

"Whoever goes right, then he goes right only for the benefit of his ownself. And whoever goes astray, then he goes astray to his own loss. No one laden with burdens can bear another's burden. And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning)." (Surah Al Israa 17:15)

There are exception, on the bases if one was not aware of Islam. Nevertheless, those who do become aware of Islam then theres no exception, regardless how Just that person was. Which you did not explain in your initial post.

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21 hours ago, Hayhat MinnaZilla said:

Salam everyone,

So a (shia) friend of mine has been recently watching videos about atheism and is now asking me question like why is shia islam right.. stuff like that.

He is now asking me why Shia islam is right out of the thousand religions in the world and what about everyone else who was born as Christian, Hindu etc.

I do not have enough knowledge, and I hope you guys can help this person.

direct him to a book , shield of the believer. 

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4 hours ago, armeen said:

No they dont. there are gay people out there who dont have control over their homosexuality, and are you saying atheists have no control over their atheism? 

 

Being gay is definitely a choice. It is not in no way hereditary..... They can't reproduce. Not even the theory of evolution supports homosexuality considering humans have to adapt to the environment based on natural selection aka survival of the fittest. Nobody puts a gun to they head and forces them to be gay.

 

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10 minutes ago, The_Bible said:

Being gay is definitely a choice. It is not in no way hereditary..... They can't reproduce. Not even the theory of evolution supports homosexuality considering humans have to adapt to the environment based on natural selection aka survival of the fittest. Nobody puts a gun to they head and forces them to be gay.

 

Its as a result of the enviromemt in which they grow up in. sometimes we cant have control over how our enviroment influences us. 

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33 minutes ago, armeen said:

Its as a result of the enviromemt in which they grow up in. sometimes we cant have control over how our enviroment influences us. 

Quran 4:16 - If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

Quran (26:165-166) - "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!"

Quran (7:80-81) - We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? "For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds."

Firstly, the Quran is against homosexuality, probably not as much as Bible, but it is clear that it is wrong. Would you say that those who were punished by Allah & believers, were in the right, if they had no choice to control their sexual preference based on their environment?

Secondly, where then would these people go to in the after life, if they didn't have a choice to be "gay"?

Lastly, I don't think the environment can be used to justify homosexuality. Influencing someone only goes so far depending on HOW MUCH the person WANTS to believe. It cannot be forced. Like when they teach us evolution needing courses and exams to graduate, I & many are being influenced, but still retain our faith in religion.

 

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46 minutes ago, The_Bible said:

Quran 4:16 - If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

Quran (26:165-166) - "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!"

Quran (7:80-81) - We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? "For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds."

Firstly, the Quran is against homosexuality, probably not as much as Bible, but it is clear that it is wrong. Would you say that those who were punished by Allah & believers, were in the right, if they had no choice to control their sexual preference based on their environment?

Secondly, where then would these people go to in the after life, if they didn't have a choice to be "gay"?

Lastly, I don't think the environment can be used to justify homosexuality. Influencing someone only goes so far depending on HOW MUCH the person WANTS to believe. It cannot be forced. Like when they teach us evolution needing courses and exams to graduate, I & many are being influenced, but still retain our faith in religion.

 

My point was  that if gay people are nice  can they go to heaven? but you have given this debate a whole new twist. 

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19 minutes ago, umm kulthum said:

My point was  that if gay people are nice  can they go to heaven? but you have given this debate a whole new twist. 

Romans 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

1 Corinthians (6:9-11) - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

No im making you think outside of the box and from a different perspective. Wouldn't letting gays enter heaven be contradicting yourargument about mumins not entering paradise? Being gay is already not good so how can you say IF they are nice? 

This is one reason why Islam doesn't make sense, one can say O Allah im sorry and try to change, KNOWING that he will sin sometime in future due to not being perfect, and think they will be in paradise with God. When God is pure and holy, a sinner cannot enter heaven bc heaven permits NO SIN. 

Those who want non-muslims to enter heaven are more uncomortable with the nature of God as given in their Quran, than they are with THEIR idea of the God. Easily put, its like dudes talking bout they are not religious but they do believe there is a God, at the end of the day they just creating a god in their own minds, a god that jives to their tunes. And thats not what Christianity or your religion is. You can't read the Bible or Quran and expect it to not step on your toes, have to accept it for what it is. 

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2 minutes ago, The_Bible said:

Romans 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

1 Corinthians (6:9-11) - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

No im making you think outside of the box and from a different perspective. Wouldn't letting gays enter heaven be contradicting yourargument about mumins not entering paradise? Being gay is already not good so how can you say IF they are nice? 

This is one reason why Islam doesn't make sense, one can say O Allah im sorry and try to change, KNOWING that he will sin sometime in future due to not being perfect, and think they will be in paradise with God. When God is pure and holy, a sinner cannot enter heaven bc heaven permits NO SIN. 

Those who want non-muslims to enter heaven are more uncomortable with the nature of God as given in their Quran, than they are with THEIR idea of the God. Easily put, its like dudes talking bout they are not religious but they do believe there is a God, at the end of the day they just creating a god in their own minds, a god that jives to their tunes. And thats not what Christianity or your religion is. You can't read the Bible or Quran and expect it to not step on your toes, have to accept it for what it is. 

Fornicators...idolators...... @Enlightened Followerwas saying even if people were of these types , providing they are good people, they can still go to heaven. im extremely confused now. 

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9 minutes ago, umm kulthum said:

Fornicators...idolators...... @Enlightened Followerwas saying even if people were of these types , providing they are good people, they can still go to heaven. im extremely confused now. 

1 Corinthians 7:2 - Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

Im sure one of those based on that list are referring to homosexuals. Bible obviously doesn't support gay marriage so that could be speaking about those gay fornicators, "abusers of themselves of mankind" or sexually immoral. Yes I disagree with him too and I disagree that gays can enter heaven.

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18 hours ago, The_Bible said:

So what is the problem with Christians following their bible when muslims criticize them for believing different. And what you replied still doesn't go according to what the Quran teaches. Maybe you are trying to be modest and have peace with other beliefs but it is not what is said in your book.

this may help

 

https://www.medinaminds.com/islamic-view-christianity/

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Those who want non-muslims to enter heaven are more uncomfortable with the nature of God as given in their Quran, than they are with THEIR idea of the God. Easily put, its like dudes talking bout they are not religious but they do believe there is a God, at the end of the day they just creating a god in their own minds, a god that jives to their tunes. And that's not what Christianity or your religion is about. You can't just read the Bible or Quran and expect it to not step on your toes, have to accept it for what it is 

Those who do that are being hypocrites by contradicting their own religious book, and when they get confronted being called ''fake muslims'' or ''hypocrites/unbelievers'' by other extremists, they blame them on their actions due to their mis-interpretation of what the maybe, not so informed or the one who only practices Islam, may falsely judge not knowing that they are truly the ones who are following the Quran as it describes. When a Christian gets judged by their book we do not deny the verses that happened, bc we would be cherry picking what to believe rather than explaining the context of the story. Which is not much of a challenge bc what the new testaments promotes are the teachings of Jesus telling us to love and maintain peace with one another.

Quran 3:56 - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran 4:88 - Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

Quran 9:67 - The Hypocrites, men and women, (have an understanding) with each other: They enjoin evil, and forbid what is just, and are close with their hands. They have forgotten Allah; so He hath forgotten them. Verily the Hypocrites are rebellious and perverse

While Quran, is a book filled with verses going through wars, whether in the right or wrong being irrelevant. What do you think people will mainly grasp when they have to memorize these verses? Quran itself is a hard to study book WITHOUT the hadiths of the messengers alongside with them. And still it is a problem to decide which is sahih or not, but these are the very sources that is used to base certain sharias alongside with them. One needs to rely on the marjas or ulamas to dictate what certain hadiths mean and which are reliable bc the audience does not understand Arabic making it a guru thing. Jesus already warned us about those who recite same long prayers (when Jesus speaks it appears in red ink texts in bibles).

Matthew (6:1-8) - Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

It is similar to the Jews who have rabbis that dictate their Talmud's, which is VERY similar to the hadiths, bc it emphasizes the laws for their land and the further explanations for their Torah. Protestant Christians know best about that bc we also have been oppressed with Catholic's high aristocrats dictating the scriptures that people followed, fooling them to believe whatever they wanted for money. That was the cause of the protestant reformation, so it gets suspicious when there is a controversial topics based on religious doctrines that ONLY gurus have to make official for EVERY person.

 

Edited by The_Bible

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39 minutes ago, The_Bible said:

Those who want non-muslims to enter heaven are more uncomfortable with the nature of God as given in their Quran, than they are with THEIR idea of the God. Easily put, its like dudes talking bout they are not religious but they do believe there is a God, at the end of the day they just creating a god in their own minds, a god that jives to their tunes. And that's not what Christianity or your religion is about. You can't just read the Bible or Quran and expect it to not step on your toes, have to accept it for what it is 

Those who do that are being hypocrites by contradicting their own religious book, and when they get confronted being called ''fake muslims'' or ''hypocrites/unbelievers'' by other extremists, they blame them on their actions due to their mis-interpretation of what the maybe, not so informed or the one who only practices Islam, may falsely judge not knowing that they are truly the ones who are following the Quran as it describes. 

Quran 3:56 - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran 9:67 - The Hypocrites, men and women, (have an understanding) with each other: They enjoin evil, and forbid what is just, and are close with their hands. They have forgotten Allah; so He hath forgotten them. Verily the Hypocrites are rebellious and perverse

Quran 4:88 - Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

When a Christian gets judged by their book we do not deny the verses that happened, bc we would be cherry picking what to believe rather than explaining the context of the story. Which is not much of a challenge bc what the new testaments promotes are the teachings of Jesus telling us to love and maintain peace with one another.

1 Peter 3:15 - But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

While Quran, is a book filled with verses going through wars, whether in the right or wrong being irrelevant. What do you think people will mainly grasp when they have to memorize these verses? Quran itself is a hard to study book WITHOUT the hadiths of the messengers alongside with them. And still it is a problem to decide which is sahih or not, but these are the very sources that is used to base certain sharias alongside with them. One needs to rely on the marjas or ulamas to dictate what certain hadiths mean and which are reliable bc the audience does not understand Arabic making it a guru thing. Jesus already warned us about those who recite same long prayers (when Jesus speaks it appears in red ink texts in bibles).

Matthew (6:1-8) - Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

It is similar to the Jews who have rabbis that dictate their Talmud's, which is VERY similar to the hadiths, bc it emphasizes the laws for their land and the further explanations for their Torah. Protestant Christians know best about that bc we also have been oppressed with Catholic's high aristocrats dictating the scriptures that people followed, fooling them to believe whatever they wanted for money. That was the cause of the protestant reformation, so it gets suspicious when there is a controversial topics based on religious doctrines that ONLY gurus have to make official for EVERY person.

 

 

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16 hours ago, Enlightened Follower said:

You cannot reduce the sociology of people so quickly there are places were Muslims have not even gone or reached are those people going to hell according to you?

If you can be fine with this type of sentiment then when the Grand Mufti of Mecca calls all Shia Kafir and they should not be allowed to do Hajj then don't come surprised as he will quote scholars who hold your views that consider Sunnis Non Muslim.

That's different, because our scholars, like Al-Khoei for example, say Sunnis are Muslims in this life, kafirs in the Afterlife.

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16 hours ago, Enlightened Follower said:

So according to you the Christian King of Abyssinia is going to hell even if he assisted and aided the Prophet when he was weakest and the Christian priest who saved Imam Husayn's head is also going to hell?

Also the verse about the Sabians and those who believe in the last day is now null and void?

It's not void, you just rely on your own personal tafsir, when no Orthodox Tafsir interprets the Verse like you do. Just admit this "Islamic Religious Pluralism" movement is a sham. The works of the kafir is in vain.

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17 hours ago, E.L King said:

That's different, because our scholars, like Al-Khoei for example, say Sunnis are Muslims in this life, kafirs in the Afterlife.

What? 

Isn't anyone who says the Shahadat a Muslim?

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Just now, E.L King said:

Yes, in this life.

How can anyone be a believer in this life, and a disbeliever in the next, unless that person was a hypocrite and not really a true believer at all?

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Just now, Islandsandmirrors said:

How can anyone be a believer in this life, and a disbeliever in the next, unless that person was a hypocrite and not really a true believer at all?

Well Sunnis are not considered "Mu'mins", even in this life. 

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6 minutes ago, E.L King said:

Well Sunnis are not considered "Mu'mins", even in this life. 

Isn't a "Mu'min" someone who practices Islam to the best of their ability, avoids sins and repents quickly, and is religiously committed? 

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1 minute ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Isn't a "Mu'min" someone who practices Islam to the best of their ability, avoids sins and repents quickly, and is religiously committed? 

One of the conditions of Iman is belief in the Wilaya of Twelve Imams after the Prophet.

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20 hours ago, E.L King said:

It's not void, you just rely on your own personal tafsir, when no Orthodox Tafsir interprets the Verse like you do. Just admit this "Islamic Religious Pluralism" movement is a sham. The works of the kafir is in vain.

So you don't even know me and you're calling me a kafir?

Many Muslims in the past held the position I have held including Ibn Sina and Mulla Sadra that's were I received the tafsir.

Is al Khoei infallible now and every single fatwa he gives infallible?

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