Hayhat MinnaZilla

Shia becomes an atheist?

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146 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Enlightened Follower said:

@E.L King seems to be a Shia Salafi or Shia equivalent.

Nice. You are calling our Ulama from Shaykh Al-Mufid to Sayyed Al-Khoei all to be Salafis.

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57 minutes ago, Enlightened Follower said:

Abu Talib was a non believer and according to Shia belief he entered heaven

No he wasn't. You seem to be influenced a lot by Sunnis and liberal/unorthodox Muslims:

These are two hadiths proving the Islam of Abu Talib:

Quote

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن هشام بن سالم، عن ابي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: إن مثل أبي طالب مثل أصحاب الكهف أسروا الايمان وأظهروا الشرك فآتاهم الله أجرهم مرتين.


`Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from ibn Abi `Umayr from Hisham b. Salim from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: The example of Abu Talib is like that of the Sleepers of the Cave – they hid their faith and expressed polytheism, so Allah gave them their reward twice. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 1209)

(hasan) (حسن)


الحسين بن محمد ومحمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن إسحاق، عن بكر بن محمد الازدي، عن إسحاق بن جعفر، عن ابيه عليه السلام قال: قيل له: إنهم يزعمون أن أبا طالب كان كافرا؟ فقال: كذبوا كيف يكون كافرا وهو يقول:
ألم تعلموا أنا وجدنا محمدا * نبيا كموسى خط في أول الكتب وفي حديث آخر كيف يكون أبو طالب كافرا وهو يقول: لقد علموا أن ابننا لا مكذب * لدينا ولا يعبأ بقيل الا باطل وأبيض يستسقى الغمام بوجهه * ثمال اليتامى عصمة للارامل


al-Husayn b. Muhammad and Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Is`haq from Bakr b. Muhammad al-Azdi from Is`haq b. Ja`far from his father عليه السلام. He said: It was said to him: They allege that Abu Talib was a disbeliever! So he said: They have lied. How could he be a disbeliever when he said, “Do they not know that we found Muhammad as a prophet like Musa, mentioned in the first Books?”


And in another hadith: How could Abu Talib be a disbeliever when he said, “They know that our son is not a liar, the false sayings do not receive our attention. The white face that prays, thus the clouds send rain, is the helper of the orphans and the protector of the widows”. (al-Kafi, Volume 1,hadith 1210)


(sahih or mursal) (صحيح أو مرسل)

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/usul-kafi/book-4/chapter-111

Edited by E.L King

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32 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

Im not sure you understand what I am saying.  You arent even acknowledging my posts.

How would you know, or truly know, anything about the cake, if you never tasted it? never smelled or saw it?

You have to understand that what you think you know, is purely in your mind. It is an interpretation.  And this interpretation is not knowledge of something that is, rather it is a thought of something that may be.

I did not get to acknowledge your post bc i had just finished replying to the other one. And I understand you're trying to give me philosophical talks, but to simplify it you're stating that we cannot be sure of ANYTHING related to religion bc it will all be, at the end of the day, open for interpretation. Then you do not realize that you are making ABSOLUTE truth a illusion bc we are limited to not knowing anything related to God or the here-after?

Now shall your philosophy exceed your religious beliefs? You are basically saying that God was not able to give us a simple understanding on how & who goes to heaven or not. Then how does that apply to your bible when it says that God will give you UNDERSTANDING, and not frosake you in gudaince?

2 Timothy 3:15 - And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

James 1:5 - If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

1 John 5:20 - And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Edited by The_Bible

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1 hour ago, Enlightened Follower said:

Those verses apply to people who reject faith(i.e. have had a chance to be presented Islam and it's proofs and then rejected them) not to those exposed to negative news media against Islam or those who have not yet heard the message.

And what did I say? I said they rejected Islam, I never said anything about those who didn't hear about Islam. As for those who hear "negative news" and believe it like sheep, that is their problem. They are lazy and did not search for the truth, Allah says about people:

Indeed, those whom the angels take [in death] while wronging themselves - [the angels] will say, "In what [condition] were you?" They will say, "We were oppressed in the land." The angels will say, "Was not the earth of Allah spacious [enough] for you to emigrate therein?" For those, their refuge is Hell - and evil it is as a destination. (Al-Nisa)

So you can see this excuse is not the best of excuses. 

The Qur'an and Hadiths have outlined a certain peoples that can or will be excused from punishment, and these are the mustad'afeen (oppressed ones). The hadiths tell us how someone is a mustad'af.

“Whoever knows the differences among people is not a powerless person.” (al-Kafi) Hadith is Sahih, by Imam Al-Sadiq. Another hadith says children, and men and women whose minds are like children, the Pen has been lifted from them.

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They asked me about the Hadith of 73 sects, and only one in Heaven. Here it is:

And this Ummah after the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) separated into 73 sects and 72 sects are in the fire and one sect is in Jannah and from the 73 sects, 13 of the sects plagiarize/impersonate friendship and wilayah of us (the Imaams), and 12 sects from it are in the fire, and one sect is in Jannah, and the (remaining) 60 sects from the rest of the people are in the fire”

http://www.revivingalislam.com/2010/12/73-sects-of-islam.html

They asked me about the Hadith regarding one with no Imam, here it is:

Ahmad b. Idris from Muhammad b. `Abd al-Jabbar from Safwan from al-Fudayl from al-Harith b. al-Mughira.

He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام: The Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله said: Whoever dies without recognizing his Imam dies the death of jahiliyya. He said: Yes [this is correct]. I said: Is it a jahiliyya of the ignorant, or a jahiliyyaof one who does not recognize his Imam? He said: A jahiliyya of disbelief, hypocrisy, and error. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 970)

(sahih) (صحيح)

And they asked me about the Hadith about the deeds of someone without Wilaya, here it is:

From Abu Hamza, he said Imam Ali ibn Al-Husayn (AS) said: what is the best of places? We said "Allah, His Messenger, and the son of his Messenger are more knowledgable" he said in between Rukn and Maqam, and if there was ever a man who aged just as much as Nuh (AS) aged with his people, 950 years, and fasted the days and prayed the nights therein, then met Allah without our Wilaya, all of that was of no use to him (Al-Kafi)

and there are more proofs. I can go on and on. 

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1 hour ago, The_Bible said:

Difference? Elaborate on that

Shi'a are Mu'mins (believers) - other sects of Islam are not counted aa Mu'mins.

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58 minutes ago, Enlightened Follower said:

"Unfortunately, the way Muslims have come to use the term ‘kafir’ is very different from the way the Quran uses it. Muslims, originally for legal purposes, and now out of habit and social conditioning, have come to use the word ‘kafir’ to refer to anyone who is not Muslim. This is the beginning of a multitude of social problems Muslims face in the West..........

If all non-Muslims were ‘kafirs’, then upon reading the Quran we would have to conclude that they are ignorant, arrogant, evil people who seek the destruction of Earth for no reason other than selfish greed. This is an equally inaccurate view of reality, if we take a look at the ‘non-Muslims’ all around us.

Many Muslims would agree that it’s true that not all Muslims are ‘believers’ as many Muslims profess faith, but their faith is weak or they don’t believe at all, which places them under the 3rd category that the Quran is explicit about: hypocrites.

However, there is a 4th category that we’re missing out on here. It’s a category that the Quran alludes to but remains silent about. It’s a category that the majority of people on the planet fall under. Think about this for a minute:

  • Believers are those that are Muslims and embody the noble qualities the Quran encourages
  • Kafirs are those that are not Muslims and embody the harmful vices the Quran discourages
  • Hypocrites are those that claim to be Muslim and embody the harmful vices the Quran discourages
  • What’s missing?

Obviously, those that are not Muslim, but embody the noble qualities the Quran commends. What does the Quran say about these people (that might make up a few billion of our sisters and brothers in humanity today)? Nothing. At the most the Quran alludes to their existence, but doesn’t actually say anything about them – there’s especially no mention of whether or not they go to Heaven or Hell."

 

Source: http://www.quranforbusypeople.com/do-all-non-muslims-go-to-hell/

So this is where you get your ideas, not from our Ulama but from random websites.

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6 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

the best morals we can find, are examples of the teachings of the Ahlulbayt (as). these are the morals we try and copy. 

if there is a god, and he is just (aadil), we will be rewarded

if there is a god, and he is not just (aadil), we will be punished regardless of what we do

if there is no god, at least we have lived a moral life. 

That literally sounds like straight from Marcus Aurelius's The Meditations 2.11(although more like the popular misquote of it "Live a good life"), is that really in reference to a quote from Ahlulbayt(as) too? That's actually really cool if so.

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9 hours ago, Hayhat MinnaZilla said:

Salam everyone,

So a (shia) friend of mine has been recently watching videos about atheism and is now asking me question like why is shia islam right.. stuff like that.

He is now asking me why Shia islam is right out of the thousand religions in the world and what about everyone else who was born as Christian, Hindu etc.

I do not have enough knowledge, and I hope you guys can help this person.

Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum Brother,

Insh'Allah you are well and in good health.  Brother Hassanain Rajabali is always on the forefront discussing these type of issues.  This is a recent video he gave during Arba'een.  This brother also debates atheists.  Once he watches this video, I can provide him the debate videos.

Start from 17:00

Primary reason: From His mercy

Secondary reason:  To be tested, every single human being is being tried.

@E.L King If you have time dear brother, please watch.  Insh'Allah it will be of benefit to you.  Brother Hassanain touches upon how it is easy to dame everyone to hell.  He doesn't endorse at all religious pluralism, he believes Islam is deen al haq.  But he says Islam endorses social pluralism.  God bless you brother. 

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

Edited by Laayla

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If non-muslims could go to heaven providing they were just, it just goes to show that its OK not to believe in Allah and his Messangers.

And if people of the book like christians and jews who dont believe in the holy prophet, can go to heaven providing they're good people, it tells us that its OK not to believe in Allah's final messanger.  

Finally, if non-shias can go to heaven, providing they are good people, suggests that its OK not to believe in the ahlulbayt as the successors of the holy prophet. 

Surely this wouldn't be right.

Edited by armeen
The_Bible and power like this

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1 hour ago, Laayla said:

 

@E.L King If you have time dear brother, please watch.  Insh'Allah it will be of benefit to you.  Brother Hassanain touches upon how it is easy to dame everyone to hell.  He doesn't endorse at all religious pluralism, he believes Islam is deen al haq.  But he says Islam endorses social pluralism.  God bless you brother. 

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

Sister, can you paraphrase what he said? I can't play video atm. Thanks.

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11 hours ago, Endtimes said:

Do you think only Shias go to heaven?

Have I made such implication?

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4 hours ago, armeen said:

If non-muslims could go to heaven providing they were just, it just goes to show that its OK not to believe in Allah and his Messangers.

And if people of the book like christians and jews who dont believe in the holy prophet, can go to heaven providing they're good people, it tells us that its OK not to believe in Allah's final messanger.  

Finally, if non-shias can go to heaven, providing they are good people, suggests that its OK not to believe in the ahlulbayt as the successors of the holy prophet. 

Surely this wouldn't be right.

So according to you the Christian King of Abyssinia is going to hell even if he assisted and aided the Prophet when he was weakest and the Christian priest who saved Imam Husayn's head is also going to hell?

Also the verse about the Sabians and those who believe in the last day is now null and void?

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4 hours ago, armeen said:

If non-muslims could go to heaven providing they were just, it just goes to show that its OK not to believe in Allah and his Messangers.

You cannot reduce the sociology of people so quickly there are places were Muslims have not even gone or reached are those people going to hell according to you?

If you can be fine with this type of sentiment then when the Grand Mufti of Mecca calls all Shia Kafir and they should not be allowed to do Hajj then don't come surprised as he will quote scholars who hold your views that consider Sunnis Non Muslim.

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2 minutes ago, Enlightened Follower said:

So according to you the Christian King of Abyssinia is going to hell even if he assisted and aided the Prophet when he was weakest and the Christian priest who saved Imam Husayn's head is also going to hell?

Also the verse about the Sabians and those who believe in the last day is now null and void?

That's what I am confused about.

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1 minute ago, armeen said:

That's what I am confused about.

The verses that come in Medina that specify those that are Kuffar are in response to those Christians and Jews who broke their agreements with the Prophet.

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1 minute ago, Enlightened Follower said:

You cannot reduce the sociology of people so quickly there are places were Muslims have not even gone or reached are those people going to hell according to you?

If you can be fine with this type of sentiment then when the Grand Mufti of Mecca calls all Shia Kafir and they should not be allowed to do Hajj then don't come surprised as he will quote scholars who hold your views that consider Sunnis Non Muslim.

Then WHY is there so much emphasis on our beliefs as shias even though they dont matter as much because at the end of the day if every good person is going to heaven, then there shouldn't be a need for religion at all?

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4 minutes ago, armeen said:

Then WHY is there so much emphasis on our beliefs as shias even though they dont matter as much because at the end of the day if every good person is going to heaven, then there shouldn't be a need for religion at all?

For those people willing to take the Red Pill we offer it but we don't damn people who never got the chance to get there or even perceive the pill.

Edited by Enlightened Follower

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5 minutes ago, Enlightened Follower said:

For those people willing to take the Red Pill we offer it but we don't damn people who never got the chance to get there or even perceive the pill.

Never got the chance? Allah says that he will guide everyone through his messangers and the quran, meaning He has given EVERYONE an equal chance to be guided. so I dont get your point. 

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Just now, armeen said:

Never got the chance? Allah says that he will guide everyone through his messangers and the quran, meaning He has given EVERYONE an equal chance to be guided. so I dont get your point. 

To every category there exist exceptions to the rule.

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10 minutes ago, Enlightened Follower said:

To every category there exist exceptions to the rule.

I dont think there's any exceptions , unless people-who-dont-have-the-ability to-think-for-them-selves are involved.

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4 minutes ago, armeen said:

I dont think there's any exceptions , unless people-who-dont-have-the-ability to-think-for-them-selves are involved.

Or people who can think for themselves but have not reached a conclusion.

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Just now, Enlightened Follower said:

Or people who can think for themselves but have not reached a conclusion.

Majority of people who are non-shias live their life without looking for a conclusion. 

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5 minutes ago, Enlightened Follower said:

Or people who can think for themselves but have not reached a conclusion.

So do you think homosexuals (who are kind) can go to heaven? 

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12 minutes ago, armeen said:

So do you think homosexuals (who are kind) can go to heaven? 

False Equivalence.

Edited by Enlightened Follower

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