Hayhat MinnaZilla

Shia becomes an atheist?

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1 hour ago, E.L King said:

Actually she will not be allowed in Heaven. And many Verses of the Holy Qur'an explain why:

Indeed, those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers - upon them will be the curse of Allah and of the angels and the people, all together, Abiding eternally therein. The punishment will not be lightened for them, nor will they be reprieved. (Al-Baqarah)

Indeed, those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers - never would the [whole] capacity of the earth in gold be accepted from one of them if he would [seek to] ransom himself with it. For those there will be a painful punishment, and they will have no helpers. (Al-Imran)

And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers. (Al-Imran)

Those verses apply to people who reject faith(i.e. have had a chance to be presented Islam and it's proofs and then rejected them) not to those exposed to negative news media against Islam or those who have not yet heard the message.

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2 hours ago, magma said:

Just put people in heaven or hell immediately after death and be done with it, if it's all a forgone conclusion already. 

You mean like this:

Surah Muhammad, Verse 27:

فَكَيْفَ إِذَا تَوَفَّتْهُمُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ يَضْرِبُونَ وُجُوهَهُمْ وَأَدْبَارَهُمْ

But how will it be when the angels cause them to die smiting their backs.

(English - Shakir)

And like this:

Surah Al-Kahf, Verse 105:

أُولَٰئِكَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا بِآيَاتِ رَبِّهِمْ وَلِقَائِهِ فَحَبِطَتْ أَعْمَالُهُمْ فَلَا نُقِيمُ لَهُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَزْنًا

These are they who disbelieve in the communications of their Lord and His meeting, so their deeds become null, and therefore We will not set up a balance for them on the day of resurrection.

(English - Shakir)

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Enlightened Follower said:

Those verses apply to people who reject faith(i.e. have had a chance to be presented Islam and it's proofs and then rejected them) not to those exposed to negative news media against Islam or those who have not yet heard the message.

How about these two verses, and you can ponder on them briefly :) :

Surah An-Najm, Verse 39:

وَأَن لَّيْسَ لِلْإِنسَانِ إِلَّا مَا سَعَىٰ

And that man shall have nothing but what he strives for-

(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 19:

وَمَنْ أَرَادَ الْآخِرَةَ وَسَعَىٰ لَهَا سَعْيَهَا وَهُوَ مُؤْمِنٌ فَأُولَٰئِكَ كَانَ سَعْيُهُم مَّشْكُورًا

And whoever desires the hereafter and strives for it as he ought to strive and he is a believer; (as for) these, their striving shall surely be accepted.

(English - Shakir)

Clue: "wa huwa mo'minun"

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2 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

How about these two verses, and you can ponder on them briefly :) :

Surah An-Najm, Verse 39:

وَأَن لَّيْسَ لِلْإِنسَانِ إِلَّا مَا سَعَىٰ

And that man shall have nothing but what he strives for-

(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 19:

وَمَنْ أَرَادَ الْآخِرَةَ وَسَعَىٰ لَهَا سَعْيَهَا وَهُوَ مُؤْمِنٌ فَأُولَٰئِكَ كَانَ سَعْيُهُم مَّشْكُورًا

And whoever desires the hereafter and strives for it as he ought to strive and he is a believer; (as for) these, their striving shall surely be accepted.

(English - Shakir)

Clue: "wa huwa mo'minun"

None of the verses you cited excludes non believers from heaven it simply states that believers are more likely to enter heaven because they are on the correct path.

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1 minute ago, Enlightened Follower said:

None of the verses you cited excludes non believers from heaven

Do you have special definition for "non-believer"?

Surah Al-Lail, Verse 4-10:

إِنَّ سَعْيَكُمْ لَشَتَّىٰ

فَأَمَّا مَنْ أَعْطَىٰ وَاتَّقَىٰ

وَصَدَّقَ بِالْحُسْنَىٰ

فَسَنُيَسِّرُهُ لِلْيُسْرَىٰ

وَأَمَّا مَن بَخِلَ وَاسْتَغْنَىٰ

وَكَذَّبَ بِالْحُسْنَىٰ

فَسَنُيَسِّرُهُ لِلْعُسْرَىٰ

 

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Quran 3:85 - And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers

Quran 3:19 - Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah , then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account.

Idk why ya believe different that E.L King, I mean it specifically says in Islam ONLY MUSLIMS will enter heaven. So why would any other religion be able to save the kafir? Bc a person does a good deed they are saved? So a person who is a athiest can enter heaven bc he sssupposedly  good? How does anyone know who is good in the eyes of Allah?

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2 minutes ago, The_Bible said:

mean it specifically says in Islam ONLY MUSLIMS will enter heaven.

Not Muslims, but Momins.

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2 minutes ago, The_Bible said:

Quran 3:85 - And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers

Quran 3:19 - Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah , then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account.

Idk why ya believe different that E.L King, I mean it specifically says in Islam ONLY MUSLIMS will enter heaven. So why would any other religion be able to save the kafir? Bc a person does a good deed they are saved? So a person who is a athiest can enter heaven bc he sssupposedly  good? How does anyone know who is good in the eyes of Allah?

Abu Talib was a non believer and according to Shia belief he entered heaven

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Quran 3:85 - And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers

Quran 3:19 - Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah , then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account.         

Idk why ya disagree with E.L. King when the Quran teaches that ONLY muslims enter paradise. Why would being "good" save anyone if they supposedly denied the messengers of a God? How does anyone know what is good to Allah? Those who disagree are denying their own book.

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3 minutes ago, The_Bible said:

. Why would being "good" save anyone if they supposedly denied the messengers of a God? How does anyone know what is good to Allah? Those who disagree are denying their own book.

It depends on how someone comes to a state of disbelief. People do not inherit the sins of others so if a society forces a belief on them they will not be judged for it.

To "deny" has a specific meaning it means to be presented with something most people these days are not even given the chance to even interact with a Muslim let alone be offered Islam.

Edited by Enlightened Follower

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7 minutes ago, Enlightened Follower said:

It depends on how someone comes to a state of disbelief. People do not inherit the sins of others so if a society forces a belief on them they will not be judged for it.

Does that not include the religion of Islam then? That's how it was started and how would that affect the Christians like me?

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@The_Bible

If you believe in the Last Day, don't have ill will towards Muslims and don't go against any deals or agreements you have made with other people. You will be guaranteed heaven.

Edited by Enlightened Follower

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10 minutes ago, Enlightened Follower said:

@The_Bible

If you believe in the Last Day, don't have ill will towards Muslims and don't go against any deals or agreements you have made with other people. You will be guaranteed heaven.

So what is the problem with Christians following their bible when muslims criticize them for believing different. And what you replied still doesn't go according to what the Quran teaches. Maybe you are trying to be modest and have peace with other beliefs but it is not what is said in your book.

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1 minute ago, The_Bible said:

So what is the problem with Christians following their bible when muslims criticize them for believing different.

Muslims have theological disagreements but that does not dictate a person's salvation.

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13 minutes ago, The_Bible said:

Quran 3:85 - And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers

Quran 3:19 - Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah , then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account.

Idk why ya believe different that E.L King, I mean it specifically says in Islam ONLY MUSLIMS will enter heaven. So why would any other religion be able to save the kafir? Bc a person does a good deed they are saved? So a person who is a athiest can enter heaven bc he sssupposedly  good? How does anyone know who is good in the eyes of Allah?

Really, as always, and its the same shpeal in Christianity, it is turning back to interpretation.

Ive gone on plenty of rants about this before, but religion, and scripture in particular, never has been and never will be black and white.

I can look at my laptop, it is black, plastic, somewhat tough yet smooth. I can smell the plastic, taste the aluminum keys, I can hear it running.

The laptop and truth of what it is, is clear.  No human being can doubt its density and hardness. No regular human can deny its blue color.  Because it exists clearly, beyond our imaginations, and beyond our mind.

Scripture on the otherhand and understanding it, is a different ball game.  Because when you read a verse,

"And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers"

Every single word in the sentence above, can be, and will be, thought of differently by each and every one of us.  Why? Because "the Hereafter" is a place none of us have touched, tasted, smelled, heard or seen.  The nature of language is too subjective.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------

In summary, this is why E.L. King is incorrect in his bold hell based assertions.  He is ignorant of his own claims.  This is also why people rightfully disagree with him.

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7 minutes ago, Enlightened Follower said:

Muslims have theological disagreements but that does not dictate a person's salvation.

Quran 3:85 - And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers

Quran 3:19 - Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah , then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account.

Again, I do not think that even is a option when your Quran contradicts you. What about when Islam was first beginning? Why did Allah urge Muhammad to change our beliefs making it seem like if WE were wrong in any way? You cannot go against the Ayats of your religion bc if someone were to ask me about Christianity i would bring up bible verses AND THEN give my explanation.

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8 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

Really, as always, and its the same shpeal in Christianity, it is turning back to interpretation.

Ive gone on plenty of rants about this before, but religion, and scripture in particular, never has been and never will be black and white.

I can look at my laptop, it is black, plastic, somewhat tough yet smooth. I can smell the plastic, taste the aluminum keys, I can hear it running.

The laptop and truth of what it is, is clear.  No human being can doubt its density and hardness. No regular human can deny its blue color.  Because it exists clearly, beyond our imaginations, and beyond our mind.

Scripture on the otherhand and understanding it, is a different ball game.  Because when you read a verse,

"And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers"

Every single word in the sentence above, can be, and will be, thought of differently by each and every one of us.  Why? Because "the Hereafter" is a place none of us have touched, tasted, smelled, heard or seen.  The nature of language is too subjective.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------

In summary, this is why E.L. King is incorrect in his bold hell based assertions.  He is ignorant of his own claims.  This is also why people rightfully disagree with him.

Ayo friend either your Christian, or your not, you cannot pick both especially if you support the theory of evolution. A God that needs repetitve death in order for something to evolve is not a God worth worshipping.

People haven't disproven E.L claims and what kind of God cannot make clear on whether or not one is qualified for salvation or not? This isn't a lottery game one plays and tries to keep interpretating just to have people go to hell over the meantime.

There are too many religions, opinions, beliefs for all of us to be correct. Especially, when we all say contradicting statements about GOD. 

That is why there HAS to be ONE right answer bc such thing as absolute truth exists, and if it doesn't, how can you be absolutely sure about anything?

The fact is that truth exists, nobody can escape that. Now you can either seek for the truth, or just not care about it, but that does not make it go away. 

There about 3000 varying religions, most of which are just branching off of main religions. And with that in mind, just because there are millions of different stories circulating about an event, does not mean that the true and factual story is not out there. 

How do I know mine is right? Well thats easy, you can trim it down easily by studying the facts, studying the history, studying the philosophy. For instance, a religion that views the sun as god is swept aside easily, or religions that worship a goat or a bird or whatever, thats nothing like Christian beliefs.

 

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Just understand that not all Christians hold stringent or hardlined views, and understand that though muslims are generally more conservative, they too have varying interpretations.

And there is nothing any of us can do about it, because none of us have experienced "the hereafter".

You can feel 150% confident in your interpretation of scripture, but at the end of the day, the reality is, that your views are in your mind.  That is where they reside. The same goes for interpretations of Islamic scripture. 

Edited by iCambrian

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5 minutes ago, The_Bible said:

Quran 3:85 - And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers

Quran 3:19 - Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah , then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account.

Again, I do not think that even is a option when your Quran contradicts you. What about when Islam was first beginning? Why did Allah urge Muhammad to change our beliefs making it seem like if WE were wrong in any way? You cannot go against the Ayats of your religion bc if someone were to ask me about Christianity i would bring up bible verses AND THEN give my explanation.

"Unfortunately, the way Muslims have come to use the term ‘kafir’ is very different from the way the Quran uses it. Muslims, originally for legal purposes, and now out of habit and social conditioning, have come to use the word ‘kafir’ to refer to anyone who is not Muslim. This is the beginning of a multitude of social problems Muslims face in the West..........

If all non-Muslims were ‘kafirs’, then upon reading the Quran we would have to conclude that they are ignorant, arrogant, evil people who seek the destruction of Earth for no reason other than selfish greed. This is an equally inaccurate view of reality, if we take a look at the ‘non-Muslims’ all around us.

Many Muslims would agree that it’s true that not all Muslims are ‘believers’ as many Muslims profess faith, but their faith is weak or they don’t believe at all, which places them under the 3rd category that the Quran is explicit about: hypocrites.

However, there is a 4th category that we’re missing out on here. It’s a category that the Quran alludes to but remains silent about. It’s a category that the majority of people on the planet fall under. Think about this for a minute:

  • Believers are those that are Muslims and embody the noble qualities the Quran encourages
  • Kafirs are those that are not Muslims and embody the harmful vices the Quran discourages
  • Hypocrites are those that claim to be Muslim and embody the harmful vices the Quran discourages
  • What’s missing?

Obviously, those that are not Muslim, but embody the noble qualities the Quran commends. What does the Quran say about these people (that might make up a few billion of our sisters and brothers in humanity today)? Nothing. At the most the Quran alludes to their existence, but doesn’t actually say anything about them – there’s especially no mention of whether or not they go to Heaven or Hell."

 

Source: http://www.quranforbusypeople.com/do-all-non-muslims-go-to-hell/

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15 minutes ago, The_Bible said:

 

Imagine if i told you that I was baking a cake.

 

What do you think of? Vanilla cake? Chocolate? Strawberry?  Are there chocolate chips in it? Fudge? What does it smell like? How big is it? How does it taste? Can you hear me pulling it from the oven?

In your mind you have a picture of what is going on. All I said that I was baking a cake.  But as simple and as straight forward as the statement may seem, there are a million and one ways to think about this, and I bet that of anyone who reads this statement, no matter how simple it is, everyone will have a different interpretation.

It isnt until we actually have the cake in front of us, and have tasted and smelled and touched it, that we can truly say what kind of cake it is.  And this is the delimma with religion around the world. We just dont have the cake in front of us, we simply have words that state "I was baking a cake".

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10 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

Just understand that not all Christians hold stringent or hardlined views, and understand that though muslims are generally more conservative, they too have varying interpretations.

And there is nothing any of us can do about it, because none of us have experienced "the hereafter".

You can feel 150% confident in your interpretation of scripture, but at the end of the day, the reality is, that your views are in your mind.  That is where they reside. The same goes for interpretations of Islamic scripture. 

I do not mind ANY views UNLESS it contradicts what the BIBLE SAYS.  Then that is obviously a problem, and we do not need to experience the "hereafter" to know Allah exist right? Wouldn't that be more of an excuse to a atheist that waits for the last moment to believe? By that logic then our beliefs hold NO value at all until we actually get judged by God to see who shall enter heaven or not.

I think people are more uncomortable with the nature of God as given in the scriptures, than they are with the idea of God existing. Easily put, its like dudes talking bout they are not religious but they do believe there is a God, at the end of the day they just creating a god in their own minds, a god that jives to their tunes. And thats not what Christianity is. You can't read the Bible and expect it to not step on your toes.

But i do follow this God, there is nothing more humbling than the sovereignty of God Almighty.

Nehemiah 8:8 - So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

1 Corinthians 2:15-16) - But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

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48 minutes ago, Enlightened Follower said:

Abu Talib was a non believer and according to Shia belief he entered heaven

WHAT????

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8 minutes ago, The_Bible said:

I do not mind ANY views UNLESS it contradicts what the BIBLE SAYS.  Then that is obviously a problem, and we do not need to experience the "hereafter" to know Allah exist right?

Im not sure you understand what I am saying.  You arent even acknowledging my posts.

How would you know, or truly know, anything about the cake, if you never tasted it? never smelled or saw it?

You have to understand that what you think you know, is purely in your mind. It is an interpretation.  And this interpretation is not knowledge of something that is, rather it is a thought of something that may be.

Edited by iCambrian

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