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4 minutes ago, umm kulthum said:

Dont worry, I think exactly the same way as you do. I know its a sin but sometimes these thoughts just creep up on you. inshallah, we will soon find peace and serenity too. :)

Well thanks, at least I'm not on my own here.

Inshallah, with further reflection and effort, we'll get to the promised land :)

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1 minute ago, umm kulthum said:

With the way iam living my life currently,  the promiseland almost seems like a dreamland to me...:S

Ditto!

I too am living a lifestyle that puts me at odds to where I aught to be. Again, it's not good to think negatively but that seems to be the over-arching feeling at the moment.

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1 hour ago, Engineer73 said:

:) You want to be created by your consultation? that consultation would indicate your existence...

What is "imperfect" in you? Are you lacking something physically (god forbid)?

You will be punished for rejecting the facts while you have the ability to accept them too. This is called Justice.
 

I think you are pretending not to understand on purpose, do you have children and did you ask them if they wanted to be born?

God created us from the very beginning, knowing every single (supposed) choice that we would ever make.

He created us in such a way that we would do everything that he meant for us to do. We cannot vary from this plan that he put in place when he created the universe.

We are destined to only choose to do what he knew we would do. If we could make a choice of free will that God did not know we would choose, he is most definitely not omniscient. 

 

Two final questions, please reply even if you think them stupid.

1. Do you think God was tested before he became God? If not why is He testing us?

2. Is there free will in heaven?

wslm.

*


 

 

 

Edited by Quisant

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12 minutes ago, Quisant said:

We are destined to only choose to do what he knew we would do. If we could make a choice of free will that God did not know we would choose, he is most definitely not omniscient. 

This is known as "falsafa e jabr" (philosophy of compulsion). I disagree with you on that.

12 minutes ago, Quisant said:

 Do you think God was tested before he became God? If not why is He testing us?

:) None has created God, We have been created by Him.

13 minutes ago, Quisant said:

Is there free will in heaven?

Yes, there is. 

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6 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

This is known as "falsafa e jabr" (philosophy of compulsion). I disagree with you on that.

You may disagree on that but you are wrong.

A 'Creator' that is not in control or fully aware of the future consequences of his creative act is not a God, he is an irresponsible, capricious entity.
 

8 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

Yes, there is. 

If there is free will in heaven where there is no evil or suffering, then it cannot be true that God lets evil exist because it is a required side-effect of free will.

So, God *can* create a 'free will world'  without suffering / evil.

If God CAN create a sufferingless existence, then THIS existence is NOT NECESSARY. 
You believe in a God who created unnecessary suffering.

:)

wslm.

*
 

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16 minutes ago, Pangea said:

1. Allah is the Alpha and the Omega - He existed before creation itself, therefore who do you think would have tested Him?

Dear Pangea, my questions were meant to be part of the conversation with the Engineer73. I am aware of what Allah is supposed to be.

thanks for the response anyway. :)

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Quisant said:

We are destined to only choose to do what he knew we would do. If we could make a choice of free will that God did not know we would choose, he is most definitely not omniscient. 

 

Your argument can be summed up by the poetry of Umar Khayyam:

I drink wine;and a sound person;

Should have no objection to that;

God knew from eternity that I would;

If I don’t, His knowledge would amount to ignorance.

 

However, did God know from eternity that Mr Khayyam will drink voluntarily or did God know from eternity that he will be compelled by an external force to drink?

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20 minutes ago, Abbas. said:

Your argument can be summed up by the poetry of Umar Khayyam:

 

 

I drink wine;and a sound person;

 

 

Should have no objection to that;

 

 

God knew from eternity that I would;

 

 

If I don’t, His knowledge would amount to ignorance.

 

 

 

However, did God know from eternity that Mr Khayyam will drink voluntarily or did God know from eternity that he will be compelled by an external force to drink?

Hello Abbas,

That would depend on God's level of Omniscience...I freely confess that I do not know what God knows; I cannot answer your question. 

But since you quote Umar Khayyam here is another of his poems:

"I came not hither of my own free will,
And go against my wish, a puppet still;

When Allah mixed my clay He knew full well
My future acts, and could each one foretell;

Without His will no act of mine was wrought;
Is it then just to punish me in hell?"

:)

 

P.S. Love your signature, very clever. 

 

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46 minutes ago, Quisant said:

A 'Creator' that is not in control or fully aware of the future consequences of his creative act is not a God, he is an irresponsible, capricious entity.

Now you're becoming absurd in your questioning & in your reasoning. Should i quote myself again to show my words of "All-Knowing God"?

49 minutes ago, Quisant said:

1) If there is free will in heaven where there is no evil or suffering, then it cannot be true that God lets evil exist because it is a required side-effect of free will.

So, God *can* create a 'free will world'  without suffering / evil.

2) If God CAN create a sufferingless existence, then THIS existence is NOT NECESSARY. 
You believe in a God who created unnecessary suffering.

You're questioning reward & punishment system on one hand, questioning freewill on the other.

1. Heaven is a "REWARD" of those who obeyed the divine commands in their true spirit. This limited worldly life has been mentioned as "TEST", so there is a system of reward & punishment. Did God created the evil? What caused the iblis (Satan) to become evil? He refused the command of God & became arrogant. Allah is Ahsun ul Khaleqeen (Best of Creators), whatever He creates is best & He expects best deeds from us because of our given abilities.

2. The existence of heaven & hell demands the existence of test i.e., this limited worldly life. :) 

Are you smoking, Quisant

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45 minutes ago, Quisant said:

Hello Abbas,

That would depend on God's level of Omniscience...I freely confess that I do not know what God knows; I cannot answer your question. 

 

The way I understand it (and please critically analyse my thoughts)..... if God knew from eternity that Omar will drink voluntarily, it only adds to His attribute of being omniscient which is a necessary requirement for a deity regardless of whether we can comprehend it. But His knowledge is neither 'Divine' nor 'omniscient' when it is based on compulsion. Therefore, the latter option stands no chance, if we are to seek or consider a perfect deity.

Quote

 

But since you quote Umar Khayyam here is another of his poems:

"I came not hither of my own free will,
And go against my wish, a puppet still;

When Allah mixed my clay He knew full well
My future acts, and could each one foretell;

Without His will no act of mine was wrought;
Is it then just to punish me in hell?"

 

 

This is pretty much an addendum to the previous one. I think that if the aforementioned verses are proven wrong, these verses have no substance to argue any further. 

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53 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

Are you smoking, Quisant

Yes, my favourite brand is Gitanes, why?

 

54 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

Did God created the evil?

God states quite unambiguously that He created Evil 

In the Bible: I form the light, and create darkness:  make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.(Isaiah 45:7) 

In the Quran: ...Verily  We have made the Shaitans to be the guardians of those who do not believe. (Verse 7:27) 

"7:14-15. So, only Satan, among the jinns, will live till the end of the world to mislead and seduce mankind from the worship of Allah.
 

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40 minutes ago, Abbas. said:

The way I understand it (and please critically analyse my thoughts)..... if God knew from eternity that Omar will drink voluntarily, it only adds to His attribute of being omniscient which is a necessary requirement for a deity regardless of whether we can comprehend it. But His knowledge is neither 'Divine' nor 'omniscient' when it is based on compulsion. Therefore, the latter option stands no chance, if we are to seek or consider a perfect deity.

It is the old Potter and His Clay conundrum.

If the clay should not ask of the Potter; "Why have you made me thus?" 
Neither should the Potter be absolved from personal responsibility for any faults or defects in the finished product coming from his hands.

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 

 

Joking apart, It is indeed a difficult one, I can only give you my tentative opinion.

if your position includes an omnipotent, omniscient God creating people and future... terms like voluntary and compulsive are irrelevant. 

God had a choice of worlds to create. He knew everything that would happen in each of them. To each one of us. God knows your future precisely, He is the cause of all causes. 

Do you believe it is possible to do other than what God knows you will do?

Unfortunately, this my last post today, thanks for conversation thus far, see you tomorrow.

wslm.

*


 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Quisant said:

1) The Quran: ...Verily  We have made the Shaitans to be the guardians of those who do not believe. (Verse 7:27) 

2) 7:14-15. So, only Satan, among the jinns, will live till the end of the world to mislead and seduce mankind from the worship of Allah.

Let me quote here your references first:

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 27:

يَا بَنِي آدَمَ لَا يَفْتِنَنَّكُمُ الشَّيْطَانُ كَمَا أَخْرَجَ أَبَوَيْكُم مِّنَ الْجَنَّةِ يَنزِعُ عَنْهُمَا لِبَاسَهُمَا لِيُرِيَهُمَا سَوْآتِهِمَا إِنَّهُ يَرَاكُمْ هُوَ وَقَبِيلُهُ مِنْ حَيْثُ لَا تَرَوْنَهُمْ إِنَّا جَعَلْنَا الشَّيَاطِينَ أَوْلِيَاءَ لِلَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ

O children of Adam! let not the Shaitan cause you to fall into affliction as he expelled your parents from the garden, pulling off from them both their clothing that he might show them their evil inclinations, he surely sees you, he as well as his host, from whence you cannot see them; surely We have made the Shaitans to be the guardians of those who do not believe.

(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 14:

قَالَ أَنظِرْنِي إِلَىٰ يَوْمِ يُبْعَثُونَ

He said: Respite me until the day when they are raised up.

(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 15:

قَالَ إِنَّكَ مِنَ الْمُنظَرِينَ

He said: Surely you are of the respited ones.

(English - Shakir)

Now here is my response:

1) Read the whole verse now and tell me why Allah guide those who do not want to believe? Do you want Allah to act against the given freewill & make people believer with compulsion?

2) The dialogue in these two verses are attesting my point as well. When Satan refused to act on the command of Most Merciful Lord, he became evil and deserving the divine punishment/ wrath. 

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 13:

قَالَ فَاهْبِطْ مِنْهَا فَمَا يَكُونُ لَكَ أَن تَتَكَبَّرَ فِيهَا فَاخْرُجْ إِنَّكَ مِنَ الصَّاغِرِينَ

He said: Then get forth from this (state), for it does not befit you to behave proudly therein. Go forth, therefore, surely you are of the abject ones.

(English - Shakir)

Allah has given him time, till the appointed term, like He has given us. This does not say anywhere that Allah has created evil. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Quisant said:

Do you believe it is possible to do other than what God knows you will do?

 

No. God knew from eternity that I will voluntarily type this message. This idea may not make sense to us because God existed before time. 

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Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum.

To begin, Allah swt told us in the Quran,

الَّذِي خَلَقَ الْمَوْتَ وَالْحَيَاةَ لِيَبْلُوَكُمْ أَيُّكُمْ أَحْسَنُ عَمَلًا وَهُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْغَفُورُ

67:2 He who has created death as well as life, [1] so that He might put you to a test [and thus show] which of you is best in conduct, and [make you realize that] He alone is almighty, truly forgiving.

I wish there was a learned person who could explain to me why Allah choose to use death before life in this verse.

 

وَهُوَ الَّذِي خَلَق السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضَ فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ وَكَانَ عَرْشُهُ عَلَى الْمَاء لِيَبْلُوَكُمْ أَيُّكُمْ أَحْسَنُ عَمَلاً وَلَئِن قُلْتَ إِنَّكُم مَّبْعُوثُونَ مِن بَعْدِ الْمَوْتِ لَيَقُولَنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ إِنْ هَـذَا إِلاَّ سِحْرٌ مُّبِينٌ

 

11:7 And He it is who has created the heavens and the earth in six aeons; and [ever since He has willed to create life,] the throne of His almightiness has rested upon water. [10] [God reminds you of your dependence on Him] in order to test you [and thus to make manifest] which of you is best in conduct. For thus it is: if [11] thou sayest [unto men], "Behold, you shall be raised again after death!" - they who are bent on denying the truth are sure to answer, "This is clearly nothing but an enchanting delusion" [12]

 

In these two verses, Allah wants to see from his creation who is the best in conduct (ahsanu 'amala).  Then I'm reminded of Imam Ali and Imam Jafar as sadiq 3lahum salam where they explain the three types of worship.

 

Imam As-Sadiq [as] said about the meaning of worship: “Worship is of three kinds: some people worship Allah, because they fear Him – so it is the worship of slaves; and a group worships Allah, Blessed and High is He, to seek reward – so it is the worship of hirelings; and a group worships Allah, Mighty and Great is He, because of (His) love – and this is the worship of the free, and it is the most excellent worship.” (al-Kafi)

Imam Ali [as] said: Verily, some people worshipped Allah being desirous (Of His reward) – so this is the worship of traders; and some people worshipped Allah fearing (His punishment) – so it is the worship of slaves, and a group worshipped Allah in gratitude (to Him) so this is the worship of the free. (Nahju ‘I-balaghah)

Imam as-Sadiq [as] said: ‘Verily people worship Allah in three ways: One group worships Him in desire of His reward, and it is the worship of covetous ones, and it is greed; and others Worship Him in dread of the Fire, and it is the worship of slaves, and it is fear; but I worship Him in His love – Mighty and Great is He and this is the worship of noble ones. (It is) because Allah has said: and they shall be secure from terror on that days (27: 89); and He has said, Say: ‘If You love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you. . .’ (3:31). Therefore, whosoever is loved by Allah, he shall be among the secure ones; and it is a hidden position, cannot touch it save the purified ones.” (al-Ilal, al-Majalis and al-Khisal)

Then the worshippers who seek closeness to Allah swt, after foregoing the trials and tribulations they are experiencing in this world don't want anything except to be loved by Allah and to be in close proximity to Him.  Below are examples of du32s from Imam Ali and Asiyah, the wife of Pharaoh.  I'm quickly reminded of the martyrs who are in the prime of their lives, leave everything behind and go towards jihad which is the quickest way to reach Allah swt. 

According to Imam Ali [as] the torment of the fire of Hell is severe and unbearable, but even worse than this torment is being kept away from Allah. In Munajat Sha’baniyah he says:

 

الهي ان اخذتني بجرمي اخذتك بعفوك, وان اخذتني بذنوبي اخذتك بمغفرتك, وان ادخلتني النار اعلمت اهلها اني احبك

 

My Lord, if You condemn me for my crimes, I will cling to Your forgiveness, and if You hold me for my sins, I will cling to Your granting pardon. If You haul me into the hell, I will tell its inmates that I love You.

 

When Asiyah [r] the wife of Fir’own was being tortured, she asked Allah swt to build her a house in Jannah. But the most important thing in her eyes was that this house should be ‘near you’.

وَضَرَبَ اللَّهُ مَثَلاً لِلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اِمْرَأَةَ فِرْعَوْنَ إِذْ قَالَتْ رَبِّ ابْنِ لِي عِنْدَكَ بَيْتاً فِي الْجَنَّةِ وَنَجِّنِي مِنْ فِرْعَوْنَ وَعَمَلِهِ وَنَجِّنِي مِنْ الْقَوْمِ الظَّالِمِينَ

[66:11] And Allah sets forth, as an example to those who believe the wife of Pharaoh: Behold she said: “O my Lord! Build for me, in nearness to Thee, a mansion in the Garden, and save me from Pharaoh and his doings, and save me from those that do wrong”;

 

She didn’t say ”build for me a house in Jannah” or ”build for me a house in Jannah in nearness to you” rather she said ”Build for me, in nearness to Thee, a house in Jannah”

Being close to Allah swt was what she wanted.

https://slaveofali.wordpress.com/2008/09/05/the-worship-of-the-free/
----------------------------------------------------------------

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

 

 

Edited by Laayla

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44 minutes ago, Laayla said:

I wish there was a learned person who could explain to me why Allah choose to use death before life in this verse.

The life discussed in this verse is after-life, that is why death is mentioned before it and immediate mentioning the after-life,  Allah said "leyabluwakum ayyukum ahsano amala" { ( thus show) which of you is best in deeds}.

This verse of Chapter Ankaboot describes the difference of this limited worldly life & the life of hereafter as:

Surah Al-Ankaboot, Verse 64:

وَمَا هَٰذِهِ الْحَيَاةُ الدُّنْيَا إِلَّا لَهْوٌ وَلَعِبٌ وَإِنَّ الدَّارَ الْآخِرَةَ لَهِيَ الْحَيَوَانُ لَوْ كَانُوا يَعْلَمُونَ

And this life of the world is nothing but a sport and a play; and as for the next abode, that most surely is the life-- did they but know!

(English - Shakir)

 

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But Brother Engineer, the word used is " الْحَيَوَانُ " and not " الْحَيَاةَ "

I'm still looking for the reason why death was used before life.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

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19 minutes ago, Laayla said:

But Brother Engineer, the word used is " الْحَيَوَانُ " and not " الْحَيَاةَ "

I'm still looking for the reason why death was used before life.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

Hayawaan is the property of after-life. In his manajaat, Mola Ali said this:

Moulaya ya Moula, Ant-Al-Haye wa ana-al-maiyyat, wa hal yarhamul maiyyeta illal Haye.

This limited worldly life is not a life at all. 

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9 hours ago, Pangea said:

 

 

Perhaps I am thinking too deeply into this Hassan Y.

 

 

 

 

However, I'm neither a scholar of philosopher but I am human and it's in our nature to be inquisitive, to try to enquire and investigate the meaning of things, the purpose of being. He has put that capacity within us and therefore I'm using this cognitive tool to explore the reasons of why.

 

 

 

 

God doesn't need to test us, yet He does. Yes He's Merciful and Absolute but wouldn't it have been more merciful where He could have left everyone in non-existence so there was no need to choose a path, apply free will or try or abstain from sinning..

 

 

As I told @umm kulthum, being non-existent is far less merciful than being existed. You would rather not exist because you don't want to choose the right path and abstain from sinning in this world even when God guaranteed you heaven for eternity? God is extremely merciful for allowing us to exist and give us the opportunity to be tested in this temporary world, and grant us paradise if we follow his authority.

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23 minutes ago, Hassan Y said:

As I told @umm kulthum, being non-existent is far less merciful than being existed. You would rather not exist because you don't want to choose the right path and abstain from sinning in this world even when God guaranteed you heaven for eternity? God is extremely merciful for allowing us to exist and give us the opportunity to be tested in this temporary world, and grant us paradise if we follow his authority.

You are at peace, thats why you're saying it. Not everyone here is in the same spiritual state as you.

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33 minutes ago, umm kulthum said:

You are at peace, thats why you're saying it. Not everyone here is in the same spiritual state as you.

What I stated applies to every human on earth, whether you experience a depressed, hardship, struggling life or not. You exist in this world for the purpose to follow the authority of god, nothing else. If you do as he commanded, even when it is very hard and painful, you will be granted an eternity of happiness when you die. If you are ignorant and refuse to follow God's authority, believe me, when you die you will experience more pain than anything this life could have. 

Edited by Hassan Y

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26 minutes ago, Hassan Y said:

What I stated applies to every human on earth, whether you experience a depressed, hardship, struggling life or not. You exist in this world for the purpose to follow the authority of god, nothing else. If you do as he commanded, even when it is very hard and painful, you will be granted an eternity of happiness when you die. If you are ignorant and refuse to follow God's authority, believe me, when you die you will experience more pain than anything this life could have. 

Your point was that this life is worth it because of the possible eternal happniess in jannah. thats what I answered. I said not everyone thinks that. some people would rather not exist at all. 

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1 hour ago, umm kulthum said:

Your point was that this life is worth it because of the possible eternal happniess in jannah. thats what I answered. I said not everyone thinks that. some people would rather not exist at all. 

Athiests I know. They need to understand the real meaning of life and search for the truth like everybody else.

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27 minutes ago, umm kulthum said:

Not just atheists...people from different religions too. 

Anybody that would rather not exist is not thinking rationally. Your life is valuable and was brought to existence by the mercy of God, He didn't need to make you exist you are nothing to him, but he did. People need to apply logic into there thinking to understand the meaning of life and how appreciative they should be to God for he giving them the opportunity to be tested for whether they are worthy to go to heaven or not.

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    • @Fakeha Not sure what your problem is. Can you please explain more?
    • Quran says: "it is no wrong for a Momin to keep the wish to marry a woman but do not keep secret friendship". 1st point allows to wish for marriage and wish comes when you want some person to be with you and that's love. 2nd point forbids from girl friend / boy friend relationship.  @Waseem162 and @Islandsandmirrors Make peace 
    • Allow me to go through the thought process with you,   So there is a universe with a huge complexity in it, it seems you want to know where and how it came into existence. We know it came, and there was nothing before it so if God created the Universe then how did he come/exist prior to something that wasn't there? Scientifically, space and time are bound, if you live in space you are bound by time, but time isn't absolute so it would be very much possible that if you were of no matter at all and 'existed' outside the realm of space then time isn't something that applies for you. The best way I imagine it is as imagine a train travelling across the earth, the universe is that train, it is moving and the movement is time, everything outside the train, the earth itself is 'God' he can see the train move but doesn't matter where it moves it is still within his grasp, it makes no difference it's position to his existence, he is just there. So due to space-time link, it is very much possible for God to exist given his nature which is thoroughly explained in the Quran. Now how can I be so sure God created the Universe? Think about the laws of the Universe. They are absolute and doesn't matter where you are, you cannot change them, e.g. you cannot destroy or create matter for example. And before your atheist friends attack you with this, you can change some things like the boiling point of water for example, but that isn't one of the natural laws that's just a property. So for the Universe to exist something had to happen, a reaction, matter + anti-matter, blast of energy whatever you want you can choose. However, whatever it was it would have to still follow a set of rules, like for matter and anti-matter to react, there are laws of nature that dictate they will react. So where did the foundation rules of the Universe come from? If there was nothing prior how could they have existed? All you need to do it look into the complexity of nature and you will know something is up. Now here's an 'offence' question for you, if God doesn't exist wouldn't it be all about survival then? Why don't we look up to thieves, rapists, murderers etc. who live only for themselves? they are going to disappear into a void at the end of life, so no matter what you do it has no impact and you will never feel anybody else's pain because you can't switch bodies, no accountability so why don't we go mad? even better, why don't we all just commit suicide? If your life is a struggle and you're not rich enjoying all the pleasures of the world, it would make perfect sense to just kill all ourselves. But what about life and experiencing it? Well, it makes no difference whether you lived 1 year or 100 years if it is all going to perish. Imagine I told you to build a castle as glorious as you can, once you're done I will destroy it all, would you bother? If you knew it will perish immediately is there a point? Would you buy a house if you knew it would be knocked down? Nope, so why invest time and pain into a life that will soon terminate and you don't even know when! Plus nobody can argue with you about morality because it would have no foundation, seize to exist if there is no 'purpose' for anything. This is the reality of the atheist position it, to me seems a lot worse than one with hope in something greater.  So as a challenge, can you prove to me it is bad to kill someone I don't like if I knew I would never be caught, punished or held accountable? Although there are many more points, I will leave it there. for the time being.
    • When the ground is slippery,the chances of slipping increase exponentially. Although Ahle kitab i.e Christians,Jews etc are pak according to Ayatollah Sistani.(But you cannot eat meat cooked by them unless you are sure that it is halal) http://www.sistani.org/english/qa/01120/ If you can find another place to live then it is better for you else you can check the above link and act accordingly.If you feel that you will fall in to sinning that you MUST look for other accomodations.  
    • That's the point. That there wasn't anything for his enemies to say that you were weak before how could you now say that you are a Prophet while it can be your obsession right now. But those people took those things seriously. They took it serious and you yourself admitted that none can be like him in this present age and now you believe that he wasn't ordinary but extraordinary. You seem to reject your views bro and that's a good sign. You think that God is not wise to let loopholes in prophethood that anyone may come and claim in such way?  You should learn the story of Hazrat Ibrahim a.s who said that weak is not God while implying towards setting sun, moon and heavenly bodies. No one could pass the seive of Prophet and Imamate except those who are Prophets and Imams. Anyone who does so will be humiliated and die a miserable life.  The weaknesses which sunni aqeedah has let Ghulam Ahmed to claim Prophethood and Imamate. While he failed in the infallibility test of shia faith. If anyone who turns back from shia belief to claim imamate, he would seek help from sunni aqeedah because shia aqeedah cannot be tempered or violated.   
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