Ibn Al-Shahid

Why are we here

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24 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

Let me quote a verse here;

"and certainly We tried those before them, so Allah will certainly know those who are true and He will certainly know the liars" (29:3)

Allah is All-Knowing, His knowledge is supreme to the extant the He knows the beginning & ends  & in between of beginning & end of everything. So what would mean by "fala ya'lamanna" (will know) in above verse? He is all knowing, He would have said that this creature is a liar & that's it. In such scenario, do anyone call this a justice? He is All-Knowing Allah and at the mean time He is Just (Aadil) as well. 

For the sake of justice, He tests his creation so that they can prove themselves (true or liar, believer or hypocrite). This life is a test, this is not said by me, this is said by Allah. We don't arrive in this world with our choice, one can argue if we are not here with our choice, who sent us here? what caused us to be here and live a limited life?
 

If He is all knowing why does He need to test anything? His Creation will have turned out exactly as He planned.

Is He testing His own plan?

For instance, He created Iblis rebellious and proud knowing in advance that these attributes will make Iblis sin. Why test what He knew already?

Can a potter blame the vase if it turns out the wrong shape or colour?  Wasn't that his intention, did he make a mistake?

wslm.

*
 

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31 minutes ago, Quisant said:

If He is all knowing why does He need to test anything? His Creation will have turned out exactly as He planned.

Here is the answer, you missed it, I guess.

31 minutes ago, Quisant said:

He is all knowing, He would have said that this creature is a liar & that's it. In such scenario, do anyone call this a justice? He is All-Knowing Allah and at the mean time He is Just (Aadil) as well. 

For the sake of justice, He tests his creation so that they can prove themselves (true or liar, believer or hypocrite). This life is a test, this is not said by me, this is said by Allah. We don't arrive in this world with our choice, one can argue if we are not here with our choice, who sent us here? what caused us to be here and live a limited life?

Now the next question:

31 minutes ago, Quisant said:

For instance, He created Iblis rebellious and proud knowing in advance that these attributes will make Iblis sin. Why test what He knew already?

Can a potter blame the vase if it turns out the wrong shape or colour?  Wasn't that his intention, did he make a mistake?

Iblis would have said O Allah, you haven't tested me, otherwise I would have proved myself a loyal & faithful creation.

So creating anything and declaring it a sinner, without even testing it. This is not the Justice and how can anyone expect injustice from the Aadil (JUST) like Allah.  

 

Edited by Engineer73

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11 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

Here is the answer, you missed it, I guess.

Now the next question:

Iblis would have said O Allah, you haven't tested me, otherwise I would have proved myself a loyal & faithful creation.

So creating anything and declaring it a sinner, without even testing it. This is not the Justice and how can anyone expect injustice from the Aadil (JUST) like Allah.  

 

That is no answer, just dodging the issue.

I could well ask why did you make me so?

God did not consult me before He created me and if I sin it is because my 'given' characteristics are to lean towards sin.

The potter made me red without my consent, he could have made me blue.

He could have made me like Adam or Abraham, nobody asked me if I wanted to be born, nobody gave me the choice of how my clay should have been mixed.

I was created 'imperfect' without my knowledge by a Perfect Creator.  Why should I be punished for personality and life circumstances I did not desire? 

wslm.

*

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14 hours ago, Hassan Y said:



Because he is worthy of it, he knows our devotion to him will bring us closer to him. The point is god didn't need to make us exist to test us, he already knows the results but because he's extremely merciful he brought us to existence giving us the free will to choose our own path.



You are thinking too deep into this, sometimes our intellect can't understand these things.





Perhaps I am thinking too deeply into this Hassan Y.



However, I'm neither a scholar of philosopher but I am human and it's in our nature to be inquisitive, to try to enquire and investigate the meaning of things, the purpose of being. He has put that capacity within us and therefore I'm using this cognitive tool to explore the reasons of why.



God doesn't need to test us, yet He does. Yes He's Merciful and Absolute but wouldn't it have been more merciful where He could have left everyone in non-existence so there was no need to choose a path, apply free will or try or abstain from sinning..


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Just now, Quisant said:

That is no answer, just dodging the issue.

Where am I dodging? Let me know that

 

1 minute ago, Quisant said:

God did not consult me before He created me and if I sin it is because my 'given' characteristics are to lean towards sin.

Yes, He did not consult the creation before creating them. He has created you and if you sin because of your "given" characteristics, we need to know those characteristics now. The characteristic is your "freewill", your ability to ponder, accept or reject facts.

Assume you don't have freewill, what would be test for then? :)  you seems tired today Quisant.

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8 minutes ago, Quisant said:

I was created 'imperfect' without my knowledge by a Perfect Creator.  Why should I be punished for personality and life circumstances I did not desire? 

:) You want to be created by your consultation? that consultation would indicate your existence...

What is "imperfect" in you? Are you lacking something physically (god forbid)?

You will be punished for rejecting the facts while you have the ability to accept them too. This is called Justice.
 

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12 minutes ago, Quisant said:

God did not consult me before He created me

If you didn't exist, how could you be "consulted"? Makes no logical sense!

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5 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

Where am I dodging? Let me know that

 

Yes, He did not consult the creation before creating them. He has created you and if you sin because of your "given" characteristics, we need to know those characteristics now. The characteristic is your "freewill", your ability to ponder, accept or reject facts.

Assume you don't have freewill, what would be test for then? :)  you seems tired today Quisant.

You must be joking when you say humans have free will. God created us, and gave everyone different identities and backgrounds without our permission. He created certain situations and circumstances for us in life, which has moulded us into the people we are today. 

Even when we make certain decisions in life, it all adds up at the end to give the result that was planned for us by God. 

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1 minute ago, umm kulthum said:

You must be joking when you say humans have free will.

I do keep a sense of humor but I am serious in this debate :). If you don't have freewill, who is forcing you to chat here? Who has thrown you in this website & who is filling ideas in your mind to question here? Who has thrown you in this situation?

You mean Allah is responsible of all the corruption, killings, injustice etc. happening at the moment on Earth? (Naozubillah)
 

 

4 minutes ago, umm kulthum said:

Even when we make certain decisions in life, it all adds up at the end to give the result that was planned for us by God. 

:) It is planned by God to visit Shiachat & waste your time here? I don't know any such god...
 

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Just now, Engineer73 said:

I do keep a sense of humor but I am serious in this debate :). If you don't have freewill, who is forcing you to chat here? Who has thrown you in this website & who is filling ideas in your mind to question here? Who has thrown you in this situation?

You mean Allah is responsible of all the corruption, killings, injustice etc. happening at the moment on Earth? (Naozubillah)
 

 

:) It is planned by God to visit Shiachat & waste your time here? I don't know any such god...
 

Im not wasting my time. I do  intellectual and philosophical thinking when I am on  SC, which is extremely important for self-reflection. :)

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Just now, umm kulthum said:

I do  intellectual and philosophical thinking when I am on  SC

:) & You do so with your own wish, freewill?

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Just now, Engineer73 said:

:) & You do so with your own wish, freewill?

I dont know, maybe god has created such circumstances for me in life that I have been dragged to SC by my fate. 

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Talking of Adl/Justice.

He decides to favour a few by imparting deep knowledge upon them, creating them mas'um and selecting His chosen ones to perform Prophetic or Imami duties and the rest us of mere mortals have to continually fight the devil within not to mention the utter confusion and commotion created by Hadith, sects, fabricators and scripture that can only be handled, spead  and explained by a select few.

He's filled the Chosen ones' breasts with peace and serenity, implicit knowledge of Himself, revealed scriptures and inspired them. He's left no room for doubt or conjecture in these Chosen people but the rest of us have to figure it out for ourselves. Far for me to question Allah but I do wonder where the justice is in all this...I sincerely repent for my ill thougts but am thinking aloud in respect to the questions I ponder upon.

 

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56 minutes ago, Pangea said:

Talking of Adl/Justice.

He decides to favour a few by imparting deep knowledge upon them, creating them mas'um and selecting His chosen ones to perform Prophetic or Imami duties and the rest us of mere mortals have to continually fight the devil within not to mention the utter confusion and commotion created by Hadith, sects, fabricators and scripture that can only be handled, spead  and explained by a select few.

:) Instead of answering your questions, I would like to recommend to do more homework. Think about the lives of chosen ones. Study about them & know how they lived, how they fulfilled their duties.

 

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1 hour ago, Pangea said:

Talking of Adl/Justice.

He decides to favour a few by imparting deep knowledge upon them, creating them mas'um and selecting His chosen ones to perform Prophetic or Imami duties and the rest us of mere mortals have to continually fight the devil within not to mention the utter confusion and commotion created by Hadith, sects, fabricators and scripture that can only be handled, spead  and explained by a select few.

He's filled the Chosen ones' breasts with peace and serenity, implicit knowledge of Himself, revealed scriptures and inspired them. He's left no room for doubt or conjecture in these Chosen people but the rest of us have to figure it out for ourselves. Far for me to question Allah but I do wonder where the justice is in all this...I sincerely repent for my ill thougts but am thinking aloud in respect to the questions I ponder upon.

 

Dont worry, I think exactly the same way as you do. I know its a sin but sometimes these thoughts just creep up on you. inshallah, we will soon find peace and serenity too. :)

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4 minutes ago, umm kulthum said:

Dont worry, I think exactly the same way as you do. I know its a sin but sometimes these thoughts just creep up on you. inshallah, we will soon find peace and serenity too. :)

Well thanks, at least I'm not on my own here.

Inshallah, with further reflection and effort, we'll get to the promised land :)

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1 minute ago, umm kulthum said:

With the way iam living my life currently,  the promiseland almost seems like a dreamland to me...:S

Ditto!

I too am living a lifestyle that puts me at odds to where I aught to be. Again, it's not good to think negatively but that seems to be the over-arching feeling at the moment.

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1 hour ago, Engineer73 said:

:) You want to be created by your consultation? that consultation would indicate your existence...

What is "imperfect" in you? Are you lacking something physically (god forbid)?

You will be punished for rejecting the facts while you have the ability to accept them too. This is called Justice.
 

I think you are pretending not to understand on purpose, do you have children and did you ask them if they wanted to be born?

God created us from the very beginning, knowing every single (supposed) choice that we would ever make.

He created us in such a way that we would do everything that he meant for us to do. We cannot vary from this plan that he put in place when he created the universe.

We are destined to only choose to do what he knew we would do. If we could make a choice of free will that God did not know we would choose, he is most definitely not omniscient. 

 

Two final questions, please reply even if you think them stupid.

1. Do you think God was tested before he became God? If not why is He testing us?

2. Is there free will in heaven?

wslm.

*


 

 

 

Edited by Quisant

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12 minutes ago, Quisant said:

We are destined to only choose to do what he knew we would do. If we could make a choice of free will that God did not know we would choose, he is most definitely not omniscient. 

This is known as "falsafa e jabr" (philosophy of compulsion). I disagree with you on that.

12 minutes ago, Quisant said:

 Do you think God was tested before he became God? If not why is He testing us?

:) None has created God, We have been created by Him.

13 minutes ago, Quisant said:

Is there free will in heaven?

Yes, there is. 

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6 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

This is known as "falsafa e jabr" (philosophy of compulsion). I disagree with you on that.

You may disagree on that but you are wrong.

A 'Creator' that is not in control or fully aware of the future consequences of his creative act is not a God, he is an irresponsible, capricious entity.
 

8 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

Yes, there is. 

If there is free will in heaven where there is no evil or suffering, then it cannot be true that God lets evil exist because it is a required side-effect of free will.

So, God *can* create a 'free will world'  without suffering / evil.

If God CAN create a sufferingless existence, then THIS existence is NOT NECESSARY. 
You believe in a God who created unnecessary suffering.

:)

wslm.

*
 

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1. Allah is the Alpha and the Omega - He existed before creation itself, therefore who do you think would have tested Him?



2. I presume so.


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16 minutes ago, Pangea said:

1. Allah is the Alpha and the Omega - He existed before creation itself, therefore who do you think would have tested Him?

Dear Pangea, my questions were meant to be part of the conversation with the Engineer73. I am aware of what Allah is supposed to be.

thanks for the response anyway. :)

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Quisant said:

We are destined to only choose to do what he knew we would do. If we could make a choice of free will that God did not know we would choose, he is most definitely not omniscient. 

 

Your argument can be summed up by the poetry of Umar Khayyam:

I drink wine;and a sound person;

Should have no objection to that;

God knew from eternity that I would;

If I don’t, His knowledge would amount to ignorance.

 

However, did God know from eternity that Mr Khayyam will drink voluntarily or did God know from eternity that he will be compelled by an external force to drink?

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20 minutes ago, Abbas. said:

Your argument can be summed up by the poetry of Umar Khayyam:

 

 

I drink wine;and a sound person;

 

 

Should have no objection to that;

 

 

God knew from eternity that I would;

 

 

If I don’t, His knowledge would amount to ignorance.

 

 

 

However, did God know from eternity that Mr Khayyam will drink voluntarily or did God know from eternity that he will be compelled by an external force to drink?

Hello Abbas,

That would depend on God's level of Omniscience...I freely confess that I do not know what God knows; I cannot answer your question. 

But since you quote Umar Khayyam here is another of his poems:

"I came not hither of my own free will,
And go against my wish, a puppet still;

When Allah mixed my clay He knew full well
My future acts, and could each one foretell;

Without His will no act of mine was wrought;
Is it then just to punish me in hell?"

:)

 

P.S. Love your signature, very clever. 

 

Abbas. and Engineer73 like this

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