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11 minutes ago, Hassan Y said:

Devoting your 80 years of life to worship god in this temporary painful world is not worth paradise for eternity? That's absurd. How can you say god is unjust? God is more than merciful for allowing us to exist, we don't even deserve it and that is why we should thank him and appreciate everything he has done for us.

I personally think it's not worth it. but each to their own. :)

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6 minutes ago, Hassan Y said:

HOW is it not worth it? 80 years of pain for infinite years of happiness... you wouldn't take that deal?

If Allah gave everyone equal amounts of pain, then yeah it would be worth it. but unfortunately, thats not the case. 

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11 minutes ago, armeen said:

If Allah gave everyone equal amounts of pain, then yeah it would be worth it. but unfortunately, thats not the case. 

You do not realize the more one struggles the more he is rewarded? 

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20 minutes ago, Hassan Y said:

HOW is it not worth it? 80 years of pain for infinite years of happiness... you wouldn't take that deal?

But what if some people get inflicted with so much pain, that they give up on life? or lose faith? it happens, and its not fair to say that those people are weak, because we have never been in their situation. 

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6 minutes ago, armeen said:

But what if some people get inflicted with so much pain, that they give up on life? or lose faith? it happens, and its not fair to say that those people are weak, because we have never been in their situation. 

When you have so much love for Allah and the ahlul bayte (as) you do not lose your faith. What these people need to do is practice to become a better muslim (assuming they're muslims) and read duas so that Allah will strengthen there faith. You need to remember, all this pain and suffering of this world is temporary, the real world is the hereafter. 

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1 minute ago, Hassan Y said:

When you have so much love for Allah and the ahlul bayte (as) you do not lose your faith. What these people need to do is practice to become a better muslim (assuming they're muslims) and read duas so that Allah will strengthen there faith. You need to remember, all this pain and suffering of this world is temporary, the real world is the hereafter. 

Subhanallah, well said. :)

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2 hours ago, armeen said:

But what if some people get inflicted with so much pain, that they give up on life? or lose faith? it happens, and its not fair to say that those people are weak, because we have never been in their situation. 

You don't lose faith. You lose belief. Faith and belief are two different things.

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Lots of explanations given - thanks for all the responses.



80 years of this, suffering that....did anyone personally ask for this?



I don't believe anyone said "test me, test me. Tell you what, You bring me into existence and put me through trials and I'll bear and suffer all so that I can go to a place, which, if I didn't exist, wouldn't make any difference to me whatsoever". "You're the Glorified, the pre and post infinite.... please, I want to exist and be tested so that I can exist somewhere comfortable and heavenly."



The example of the parents. It's a selfish act on their part, the child didn't have any say in them being brought into existence or how they are brought up.



The engine analogy isn't very useful either. The designers/creators/investors in the engine are of course going to have to test it as it's a viable product from which they aim to sell and profit from. The engineers will not be certain of it's performance until it's been vigourously tested. Allah, doesn't need to test his creation since He knows full well what kind of performance he'll get out of the things he's created. He's not looking to sell off or make profit from this human product either.



He knows the product works since He's tested the prototypes (Prophets for example, and they've passsd the test with flying colours, well apart from Hz Adam a.s.).



Again, why does He want/need/desire (none of these words sound right by the way as He's above all this) to be worshipped by lowly and impotent humans?


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29 minutes ago, Pangea said:

Lots of explanations given - thanks for all the responses.

 

 

80 years of this, suffering that....did anyone personally ask for this?

 

 

 

 

I don't believe anyone said "test me, test me. Tell you what, You bring me into existence and put me through trials and I'll bear and suffer all so that I can go to a place, which, if I didn't exist, wouldn't make any difference to me whatsoever". "You're the Glorified, the pre and post infinite.... please, I want to exist and be tested so that I can exist somewhere comfortable and heavenly."

 

 

 

 

The example of the parents. It's a selfish act on their part, the child didn't have any say in them being brought into existence or how they are brought up.

 

 

 

 

The engine analogy isn't very useful either. The designers/creators/investors in the engine are of course going to have to test it as it's a viable product from which they aim to sell and profit from. The engineers will not be certain of it's performance until it's been vigourously tested. Allah, doesn't need to test his creation since He knows full well what kind of performance he'll get out of the things he's created. He's not looking to sell off or make profit from this human product either.

 

 

 

 

He knows the product works since He's tested the prototypes (Prophets for example, and they've passsd the test with flying colours, well apart from Hz Adam a.s.).

 

 

 

 

Again, why does He want/need/desire (none of these words sound right by the way as He's above all this) to be worshipped by lowly and impotent humans?

 

 

WOW, you are spot on. I have always had these thoughts but never been able to express them.

I would be gobsmacked if anyone could debate these points! 

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36 minutes ago, armeen said:

Belief and faith are both connected silly boy. 

“We must here make a clear distinction between belief and faith, because, in general practice, belief has come to mean a state of mind which is almost the opposite of faith. Belief, as I use the word here, is the insistence that the truth is what one would “lief” or wish it to be. The believer will open his mind to the truth on the condition that it fits in with his preconceived ideas and wishes. Faith, on the other hand, is an unreserved opening of the mind to the truth, whatever it may turn out to be. Faith has no preconceptions; it is a plunge into the unknown. Belief clings, but faith lets go. In this sense of the word, faith is the essential virtue of science, and likewise of any religion that is not self-deception."

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3 hours ago, armeen said:

I would be gobsmacked if anyone could debate these points! 

If he has raised any valid point at least.

"Allah doesn't need to test" in a paragraph while "Allah has tested the prototypes" in other.

No need to respond to this absurdity.

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2 hours ago, Engineer73 said:

If he has raised any valid point at least.

"Allah doesn't need to test" in a paragraph while "Allah has tested the prototypes" in other.

No need to respond to this absurdity.

You might think its absurdity but for some people they're important points.

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8 hours ago, Pangea said:

Again, why does He want/need/desire (none of these words sound right by the way as He's above all this) to be worshipped by lowly and impotent humans?

 

 

 

 

Because he is worthy of it, he knows our devotion to him will bring us closer to him. The point is god didn't need to make us exist to test us, he already knows the results but because he's extremely merciful he brought us to existence giving us the free will to choose our own path.

You are thinking too deep into this, sometimes our intellect can't understand these things. 

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There are ONLY two religions in the world, the religion of Cain & Abel. Cain gathered his best fruits, veggies, crops & offered them to God but he did not accept his works. Abel offered God the sacrifice of a lamb & God was pleased so he accepted.

1 John 3:5 - And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Ephesians (2:8-9) - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

God had told Adam if you eat of this tree you "shall surely die" & EVERYTHING began to die not just humans. Humanity brought death into the world. That's why all in the Old Testament people had to sacrifice animals for God to forgive them. Like when Abraham almost sacrificed his son Isaac but God was only testing him so they sacrificed the nearby lamb instead.

Proverbs (3:5-6) - Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Proverbs 4:10 - Hear, O my son, and receive my sayings; and the years of thy life shall be many.

ALL other religions focuses on pleasing God like Cain with works (fasting, prayer, church etc.) While Christianity, focuses on accepting God's sacrifice of Jesus to us who cleanses the sins we commit daily. 

Proverbs 16:25 - There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Matthew 26:28 - For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

There is no point to worship God for a while & then keep on sinning, which everybody does bc no1 perfect. One sin is one too many for a entity that is PERFECT, PURE, and HOLY like GOD.

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 8:18 - For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Revelation 21:4 - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Edited by The_Bible

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39 minutes ago, The_Bible said:

Revelation 21:4 - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

:) This verse reminds me Quran, lets read verses of Quran:

"Surah Fatir, Verse 34-35

And they shall say: (All) praise is due to Allah, Who has made grief to depart from us; most surely our Lord is Forgiving, Multiplier of rewards, Who has made us alight in a house abiding for ever out of His grace; toil shall not touch us therein, nor shall fatigue therein afflict us.

Surah Ad-Dukhan, Verse 56:

They shall not taste therein death except the first death, and He will save them from the punishment of the hell,"

 

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19 hours ago, umm kulthum said:



WOW, you are spot on. I have always had these thoughts but never been able to express them.



I would be gobsmacked if anyone could debate these points!





People will say that the iman is weak or that shaytan is going about his business putting doubts and questions into the mind BUT so far, having asked this question of maulana's, people I deem to be deeply rooted in Islam, knowledgeable people, I've yet to come across an explanation that isn't based around conjecture, blind faith and arguements that are event the slightest bit emplanatory.


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16 hours ago, Engineer73 said:



If he has raised any valid point at least.



"Allah doesn't need to test" in a paragraph while "Allah has tested the prototypes" in other.



No need to respond to this absurdity.





May not be valid for you E73 but valid for many others.



He sure doesn't need to test but He has tested his people and that does not amount to absurdity.



Are you able to shine some light on the paradox of why?


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28 minutes ago, Pangea said:

 

 

People will say that the iman is weak or that shaytan is going about his business putting doubts and questions into the mind BUT so far, having asked this question of maulana's, people I deem to be deeply rooted in Islam, knowledgeable people, I've yet to come across an explanation that isn't based around conjecture, blind faith and arguements that are event the slightest bit emplanatory.

 

 

Muslims who have strong faith may not ask these questions but atheists will. 

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8 minutes ago, Pangea said:

 

 

 

 

May not be valid for you E73 but valid for many others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

He sure doesn't need to test but He has tested his people and that does not amount to absurdity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are you able to shine some light on the paradox of why?

 

 

Let me quote a verse here;

"and certainly We tried those before them, so Allah will certainly know those who are true and He will certainly know the liars" (29:3)

Allah is All-Knowing, His knowledge is supreme to the extant the He knows the beginning & ends  & in between of beginning & end of everything. So what would mean by "fala ya'lamanna" (will know) in above verse? He is all knowing, He would have said that this creature is a liar & that's it. In such scenario, do anyone call this a justice? He is All-Knowing Allah and at the mean time He is Just (Aadil) as well. 

For the sake of justice, He tests his creation so that they can prove themselves (true or liar, believer or hypocrite). This life is a test, this is not said by me, this is said by Allah. We don't arrive in this world with our choice, one can argue if we are not here with our choice, who sent us here? what caused us to be here and live a limited life?

So your objection on Parents analogy & Engine analogy are absurd in the sense that your own logic& reasoning was proving you wrong. You can review your post & see your mentioned reasons. I have just pointed you the absurdity in your reasoning.  

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