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Lots of explanations given - thanks for all the responses.



80 years of this, suffering that....did anyone personally ask for this?



I don't believe anyone said "test me, test me. Tell you what, You bring me into existence and put me through trials and I'll bear and suffer all so that I can go to a place, which, if I didn't exist, wouldn't make any difference to me whatsoever". "You're the Glorified, the pre and post infinite.... please, I want to exist and be tested so that I can exist somewhere comfortable and heavenly."



The example of the parents. It's a selfish act on their part, the child didn't have any say in them being brought into existence or how they are brought up.



The engine analogy isn't very useful either. The designers/creators/investors in the engine are of course going to have to test it as it's a viable product from which they aim to sell and profit from. The engineers will not be certain of it's performance until it's been vigourously tested. Allah, doesn't need to test his creation since He knows full well what kind of performance he'll get out of the things he's created. He's not looking to sell off or make profit from this human product either.



He knows the product works since He's tested the prototypes (Prophets for example, and they've passsd the test with flying colours, well apart from Hz Adam a.s.).



Again, why does He want/need/desire (none of these words sound right by the way as He's above all this) to be worshipped by lowly and impotent humans?


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29 minutes ago, Pangea said:

Lots of explanations given - thanks for all the responses.

 

 

80 years of this, suffering that....did anyone personally ask for this?

 

 

 

 

I don't believe anyone said "test me, test me. Tell you what, You bring me into existence and put me through trials and I'll bear and suffer all so that I can go to a place, which, if I didn't exist, wouldn't make any difference to me whatsoever". "You're the Glorified, the pre and post infinite.... please, I want to exist and be tested so that I can exist somewhere comfortable and heavenly."

 

 

 

 

The example of the parents. It's a selfish act on their part, the child didn't have any say in them being brought into existence or how they are brought up.

 

 

 

 

The engine analogy isn't very useful either. The designers/creators/investors in the engine are of course going to have to test it as it's a viable product from which they aim to sell and profit from. The engineers will not be certain of it's performance until it's been vigourously tested. Allah, doesn't need to test his creation since He knows full well what kind of performance he'll get out of the things he's created. He's not looking to sell off or make profit from this human product either.

 

 

 

 

He knows the product works since He's tested the prototypes (Prophets for example, and they've passsd the test with flying colours, well apart from Hz Adam a.s.).

 

 

 

 

Again, why does He want/need/desire (none of these words sound right by the way as He's above all this) to be worshipped by lowly and impotent humans?

 

 

WOW, you are spot on. I have always had these thoughts but never been able to express them.

I would be gobsmacked if anyone could debate these points! 

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36 minutes ago, armeen said:

Belief and faith are both connected silly boy. 

“We must here make a clear distinction between belief and faith, because, in general practice, belief has come to mean a state of mind which is almost the opposite of faith. Belief, as I use the word here, is the insistence that the truth is what one would “lief” or wish it to be. The believer will open his mind to the truth on the condition that it fits in with his preconceived ideas and wishes. Faith, on the other hand, is an unreserved opening of the mind to the truth, whatever it may turn out to be. Faith has no preconceptions; it is a plunge into the unknown. Belief clings, but faith lets go. In this sense of the word, faith is the essential virtue of science, and likewise of any religion that is not self-deception."

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3 hours ago, armeen said:

I would be gobsmacked if anyone could debate these points! 

If he has raised any valid point at least.

"Allah doesn't need to test" in a paragraph while "Allah has tested the prototypes" in other.

No need to respond to this absurdity.

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2 hours ago, Engineer73 said:

If he has raised any valid point at least.

"Allah doesn't need to test" in a paragraph while "Allah has tested the prototypes" in other.

No need to respond to this absurdity.

You might think its absurdity but for some people they're important points.

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8 hours ago, Pangea said:

Again, why does He want/need/desire (none of these words sound right by the way as He's above all this) to be worshipped by lowly and impotent humans?

 

 

 

 

Because he is worthy of it, he knows our devotion to him will bring us closer to him. The point is god didn't need to make us exist to test us, he already knows the results but because he's extremely merciful he brought us to existence giving us the free will to choose our own path.

You are thinking too deep into this, sometimes our intellect can't understand these things. 

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There are ONLY two religions in the world, the religion of Cain & Abel. Cain gathered his best fruits, veggies, crops & offered them to God but he did not accept his works. Abel offered God the sacrifice of a lamb & God was pleased so he accepted.

1 John 3:5 - And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Ephesians (2:8-9) - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

God had told Adam if you eat of this tree you "shall surely die" & EVERYTHING began to die not just humans. Humanity brought death into the world. That's why all in the Old Testament people had to sacrifice animals for God to forgive them. Like when Abraham almost sacrificed his son Isaac but God was only testing him so they sacrificed the nearby lamb instead.

Proverbs (3:5-6) - Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Proverbs 4:10 - Hear, O my son, and receive my sayings; and the years of thy life shall be many.

ALL other religions focuses on pleasing God like Cain with works (fasting, prayer, church etc.) While Christianity, focuses on accepting God's sacrifice of Jesus to us who cleanses the sins we commit daily. 

Proverbs 16:25 - There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Matthew 26:28 - For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

There is no point to worship God for a while & then keep on sinning, which everybody does bc no1 perfect. One sin is one too many for a entity that is PERFECT, PURE, and HOLY like GOD.

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 8:18 - For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Revelation 21:4 - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Edited by The_Bible

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39 minutes ago, The_Bible said:

Revelation 21:4 - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

:) This verse reminds me Quran, lets read verses of Quran:

"Surah Fatir, Verse 34-35

And they shall say: (All) praise is due to Allah, Who has made grief to depart from us; most surely our Lord is Forgiving, Multiplier of rewards, Who has made us alight in a house abiding for ever out of His grace; toil shall not touch us therein, nor shall fatigue therein afflict us.

Surah Ad-Dukhan, Verse 56:

They shall not taste therein death except the first death, and He will save them from the punishment of the hell,"

 

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19 hours ago, umm kulthum said:



WOW, you are spot on. I have always had these thoughts but never been able to express them.



I would be gobsmacked if anyone could debate these points!





People will say that the iman is weak or that shaytan is going about his business putting doubts and questions into the mind BUT so far, having asked this question of maulana's, people I deem to be deeply rooted in Islam, knowledgeable people, I've yet to come across an explanation that isn't based around conjecture, blind faith and arguements that are event the slightest bit emplanatory.


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16 hours ago, Engineer73 said:



If he has raised any valid point at least.



"Allah doesn't need to test" in a paragraph while "Allah has tested the prototypes" in other.



No need to respond to this absurdity.





May not be valid for you E73 but valid for many others.



He sure doesn't need to test but He has tested his people and that does not amount to absurdity.



Are you able to shine some light on the paradox of why?


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28 minutes ago, Pangea said:

 

 

People will say that the iman is weak or that shaytan is going about his business putting doubts and questions into the mind BUT so far, having asked this question of maulana's, people I deem to be deeply rooted in Islam, knowledgeable people, I've yet to come across an explanation that isn't based around conjecture, blind faith and arguements that are event the slightest bit emplanatory.

 

 

Muslims who have strong faith may not ask these questions but atheists will. 

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8 minutes ago, Pangea said:

 

 

 

 

May not be valid for you E73 but valid for many others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

He sure doesn't need to test but He has tested his people and that does not amount to absurdity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are you able to shine some light on the paradox of why?

 

 

Let me quote a verse here;

"and certainly We tried those before them, so Allah will certainly know those who are true and He will certainly know the liars" (29:3)

Allah is All-Knowing, His knowledge is supreme to the extant the He knows the beginning & ends  & in between of beginning & end of everything. So what would mean by "fala ya'lamanna" (will know) in above verse? He is all knowing, He would have said that this creature is a liar & that's it. In such scenario, do anyone call this a justice? He is All-Knowing Allah and at the mean time He is Just (Aadil) as well. 

For the sake of justice, He tests his creation so that they can prove themselves (true or liar, believer or hypocrite). This life is a test, this is not said by me, this is said by Allah. We don't arrive in this world with our choice, one can argue if we are not here with our choice, who sent us here? what caused us to be here and live a limited life?

So your objection on Parents analogy & Engine analogy are absurd in the sense that your own logic& reasoning was proving you wrong. You can review your post & see your mentioned reasons. I have just pointed you the absurdity in your reasoning.  

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24 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

Let me quote a verse here;

"and certainly We tried those before them, so Allah will certainly know those who are true and He will certainly know the liars" (29:3)

Allah is All-Knowing, His knowledge is supreme to the extant the He knows the beginning & ends  & in between of beginning & end of everything. So what would mean by "fala ya'lamanna" (will know) in above verse? He is all knowing, He would have said that this creature is a liar & that's it. In such scenario, do anyone call this a justice? He is All-Knowing Allah and at the mean time He is Just (Aadil) as well. 

For the sake of justice, He tests his creation so that they can prove themselves (true or liar, believer or hypocrite). This life is a test, this is not said by me, this is said by Allah. We don't arrive in this world with our choice, one can argue if we are not here with our choice, who sent us here? what caused us to be here and live a limited life?
 

If He is all knowing why does He need to test anything? His Creation will have turned out exactly as He planned.

Is He testing His own plan?

For instance, He created Iblis rebellious and proud knowing in advance that these attributes will make Iblis sin. Why test what He knew already?

Can a potter blame the vase if it turns out the wrong shape or colour?  Wasn't that his intention, did he make a mistake?

wslm.

*
 

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31 minutes ago, Quisant said:

If He is all knowing why does He need to test anything? His Creation will have turned out exactly as He planned.

Here is the answer, you missed it, I guess.

31 minutes ago, Quisant said:

He is all knowing, He would have said that this creature is a liar & that's it. In such scenario, do anyone call this a justice? He is All-Knowing Allah and at the mean time He is Just (Aadil) as well. 

For the sake of justice, He tests his creation so that they can prove themselves (true or liar, believer or hypocrite). This life is a test, this is not said by me, this is said by Allah. We don't arrive in this world with our choice, one can argue if we are not here with our choice, who sent us here? what caused us to be here and live a limited life?

Now the next question:

31 minutes ago, Quisant said:

For instance, He created Iblis rebellious and proud knowing in advance that these attributes will make Iblis sin. Why test what He knew already?

Can a potter blame the vase if it turns out the wrong shape or colour?  Wasn't that his intention, did he make a mistake?

Iblis would have said O Allah, you haven't tested me, otherwise I would have proved myself a loyal & faithful creation.

So creating anything and declaring it a sinner, without even testing it. This is not the Justice and how can anyone expect injustice from the Aadil (JUST) like Allah.  

 

Edited by Engineer73

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11 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

Here is the answer, you missed it, I guess.

Now the next question:

Iblis would have said O Allah, you haven't tested me, otherwise I would have proved myself a loyal & faithful creation.

So creating anything and declaring it a sinner, without even testing it. This is not the Justice and how can anyone expect injustice from the Aadil (JUST) like Allah.  

 

That is no answer, just dodging the issue.

I could well ask why did you make me so?

God did not consult me before He created me and if I sin it is because my 'given' characteristics are to lean towards sin.

The potter made me red without my consent, he could have made me blue.

He could have made me like Adam or Abraham, nobody asked me if I wanted to be born, nobody gave me the choice of how my clay should have been mixed.

I was created 'imperfect' without my knowledge by a Perfect Creator.  Why should I be punished for personality and life circumstances I did not desire? 

wslm.

*

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14 hours ago, Hassan Y said:



Because he is worthy of it, he knows our devotion to him will bring us closer to him. The point is god didn't need to make us exist to test us, he already knows the results but because he's extremely merciful he brought us to existence giving us the free will to choose our own path.



You are thinking too deep into this, sometimes our intellect can't understand these things.





Perhaps I am thinking too deeply into this Hassan Y.



However, I'm neither a scholar of philosopher but I am human and it's in our nature to be inquisitive, to try to enquire and investigate the meaning of things, the purpose of being. He has put that capacity within us and therefore I'm using this cognitive tool to explore the reasons of why.



God doesn't need to test us, yet He does. Yes He's Merciful and Absolute but wouldn't it have been more merciful where He could have left everyone in non-existence so there was no need to choose a path, apply free will or try or abstain from sinning..


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Just now, Quisant said:

That is no answer, just dodging the issue.

Where am I dodging? Let me know that

 

1 minute ago, Quisant said:

God did not consult me before He created me and if I sin it is because my 'given' characteristics are to lean towards sin.

Yes, He did not consult the creation before creating them. He has created you and if you sin because of your "given" characteristics, we need to know those characteristics now. The characteristic is your "freewill", your ability to ponder, accept or reject facts.

Assume you don't have freewill, what would be test for then? :)  you seems tired today Quisant.

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8 minutes ago, Quisant said:

I was created 'imperfect' without my knowledge by a Perfect Creator.  Why should I be punished for personality and life circumstances I did not desire? 

:) You want to be created by your consultation? that consultation would indicate your existence...

What is "imperfect" in you? Are you lacking something physically (god forbid)?

You will be punished for rejecting the facts while you have the ability to accept them too. This is called Justice.
 

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5 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

Where am I dodging? Let me know that

 

Yes, He did not consult the creation before creating them. He has created you and if you sin because of your "given" characteristics, we need to know those characteristics now. The characteristic is your "freewill", your ability to ponder, accept or reject facts.

Assume you don't have freewill, what would be test for then? :)  you seems tired today Quisant.

You must be joking when you say humans have free will. God created us, and gave everyone different identities and backgrounds without our permission. He created certain situations and circumstances for us in life, which has moulded us into the people we are today. 

Even when we make certain decisions in life, it all adds up at the end to give the result that was planned for us by God. 

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1 minute ago, umm kulthum said:

You must be joking when you say humans have free will.

I do keep a sense of humor but I am serious in this debate :). If you don't have freewill, who is forcing you to chat here? Who has thrown you in this website & who is filling ideas in your mind to question here? Who has thrown you in this situation?

You mean Allah is responsible of all the corruption, killings, injustice etc. happening at the moment on Earth? (Naozubillah)
 

 

4 minutes ago, umm kulthum said:

Even when we make certain decisions in life, it all adds up at the end to give the result that was planned for us by God. 

:) It is planned by God to visit Shiachat & waste your time here? I don't know any such god...
 

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Just now, Engineer73 said:

I do keep a sense of humor but I am serious in this debate :). If you don't have freewill, who is forcing you to chat here? Who has thrown you in this website & who is filling ideas in your mind to question here? Who has thrown you in this situation?

You mean Allah is responsible of all the corruption, killings, injustice etc. happening at the moment on Earth? (Naozubillah)
 

 

:) It is planned by God to visit Shiachat & waste your time here? I don't know any such god...
 

Im not wasting my time. I do  intellectual and philosophical thinking when I am on  SC, which is extremely important for self-reflection. :)

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Talking of Adl/Justice.

He decides to favour a few by imparting deep knowledge upon them, creating them mas'um and selecting His chosen ones to perform Prophetic or Imami duties and the rest us of mere mortals have to continually fight the devil within not to mention the utter confusion and commotion created by Hadith, sects, fabricators and scripture that can only be handled, spead  and explained by a select few.

He's filled the Chosen ones' breasts with peace and serenity, implicit knowledge of Himself, revealed scriptures and inspired them. He's left no room for doubt or conjecture in these Chosen people but the rest of us have to figure it out for ourselves. Far for me to question Allah but I do wonder where the justice is in all this...I sincerely repent for my ill thougts but am thinking aloud in respect to the questions I ponder upon.

 

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56 minutes ago, Pangea said:

Talking of Adl/Justice.

He decides to favour a few by imparting deep knowledge upon them, creating them mas'um and selecting His chosen ones to perform Prophetic or Imami duties and the rest us of mere mortals have to continually fight the devil within not to mention the utter confusion and commotion created by Hadith, sects, fabricators and scripture that can only be handled, spead  and explained by a select few.

:) Instead of answering your questions, I would like to recommend to do more homework. Think about the lives of chosen ones. Study about them & know how they lived, how they fulfilled their duties.

 

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1 hour ago, Pangea said:

Talking of Adl/Justice.

He decides to favour a few by imparting deep knowledge upon them, creating them mas'um and selecting His chosen ones to perform Prophetic or Imami duties and the rest us of mere mortals have to continually fight the devil within not to mention the utter confusion and commotion created by Hadith, sects, fabricators and scripture that can only be handled, spead  and explained by a select few.

He's filled the Chosen ones' breasts with peace and serenity, implicit knowledge of Himself, revealed scriptures and inspired them. He's left no room for doubt or conjecture in these Chosen people but the rest of us have to figure it out for ourselves. Far for me to question Allah but I do wonder where the justice is in all this...I sincerely repent for my ill thougts but am thinking aloud in respect to the questions I ponder upon.

 

Dont worry, I think exactly the same way as you do. I know its a sin but sometimes these thoughts just creep up on you. inshallah, we will soon find peace and serenity too. :)

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