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The crawling on torso to the shrines

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31 minutes ago, alirex said:

Whenever human left " Aql " they are really only WeedSmokers.

An amateur generalized argument once again. You have to have comprehensive or greater "Aql" to judge others' actions.

Suicide, burning hands, bleeding oneself to death are exaggerated scenarios and strawman arguments. Address one issue at a time.

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1 hour ago, Darth Vader said:

An amateur generalized argument once again. You have to have comprehensive or greater "Aql" to judge others' actions.

Suicide, burning hands, bleeding oneself to death are exaggerated scenarios and strawman arguments. Address one issue at a time.

:salam:

May I point out this is your notion of exagerated scenarios, as in you who have grown up getting used to tatbir and blood letting.

Now ask yourself what that notion would be to a Prophet or an Imam who left us Islam a pure religion.

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Perhaps you should instead ask Yaqoob (as) why he literally cried his eyes out. Or ask God why He added that detail in His Qur'an. I'm sure my reasoning would not cut it in any event. Me having "grown up getting used to tatbir and blood letting". :grin:

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20 hours ago, Darth Vader said:

Perhaps you should instead ask Yaqoob (as) why he literally cried his eyes out. Or ask God why He added that detail in His Qur'an. I'm sure my reasoning would not cut it in any event. Me having "grown up getting used to tatbir and blood letting". :grin:

I think the issue is that these acts are not based on religion or reason, and thus the vast majority of humanity find them very strange and uncomfortable. To be frank, its just not natural, the human doesn't incline to slashing their own back, or crawling on the floor, or bowing to statues etc. 

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So Yaqoob (as) a human who cried for his son Yusuf (as) to the point of losing eyesight is.... what? "Just not natural", "without reason" and "not religious" right? Why can't we people live with the fact that there are a lot of things we do not or can not immediately understand. Some answers we find only with age, while some we do not find.

Assigning a fatwa to everything is the other choice, the common choice. Thankfully the Shia haven't been infiltrated enough that they also chop off heads then and there after a summary takfir. I'm sure that would also become "reasonable" and "religious" given enough time.

Edited by Darth Vader

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2 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

I think the issue is that these acts are not based on religion or reason, and thus the vast majority of humanity find them very strange and uncomfortable. To be frank, its just not natural, the human doesn't incline to slashing their own back, or crawling on the floor, or bowing to statues etc. 

What would the vast majority of humanity (i'm guessing this will include non muslims aswell) will say  that Imam Hussein (as) had taken 6 month child to the battlefield? would they comprehend that 6 month old child life would save Islam? Do you comprehend this sacrifice as a Shia?  

Edited by power

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1 hour ago, power said:

What would the vast majority of humanity (i'm guessing this will include non muslims aswell) will say  that Imam Hussein (as) had taken 6 month child to the battlefield? would they comprehend that 6 month old child life would save Islam? Do you comprehend this sacrifice as a Shia?  

what does that have to do with crawling on the floor, barking like a dog, walking on fire, slashing your back etc.

Hearing the difficult times of the Prophets SAW and Imams AS brings tears to the eyes, and should make us change our behaviour for the good.

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13 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

 

Hearing the difficult times of the Prophets SAW and Imams AS brings tears to the eyes, and should make us change our behaviour for the good.

Mashallah bro, indeed it is heart  crunching to hear such tragedy that fell upon Imam Hussein (as) and family. I was expecting more regards to why humanity cannot comprehend such tragedy? But its okay lets leave at this.

 

W/Salaam

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2 hours ago, power said:

Mashallah bro, indeed it is heart  crunching to hear such tragedy that fell upon Imam Hussein (as) and family. I was expecting more regards to why humanity cannot comprehend such tragedy? But its okay lets leave at this.

 

W/Salaam

I think it is not that there is something wrong with them, but they have not heard the message. Perhaps they are put off because of language barrier, or intimated by the behavior of some shia . Lets be straight, would a normal non muslim want to go to an event to learn if they saw people barking like a dog, walking on hot coals and slashing their backs with blades? Its just how to pass on the message.

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8 minutes ago, iraqi_shia said:

would a normal non muslim want to go to an event to learn if they saw people barking like a dog, walking on hot coals and slashing their backs with blades? Its just how to pass on the message.

do people only find out about shiism on ashura? what about the other 11 months of the year to do dawah?

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1 minute ago, DigitalUmmah said:

do people only find out about shiism on ashura? what about the other 11 months of the year to do dawah?

I agree, we should be displaying good akhlaq all year round, and promoting our values and ideas. There is nothing within our religion which wouldnt appeal to anyone, once properly explained and understood.

However, the "power" was specifically discussing the tragedies of muharram. 

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20 hours ago, Darth Vader said:

So Yaqoob (as) a human who cried for his son Yusuf (as) to the point of losing eyesight is.... what? "Just not natural", "without reason" and "not religious" right? Why can't we people live with the fact that there are a lot of things we do not or can not immediately understand. Some answers we find only with age, while some we do not find.

Assigning a fatwa to everything is the other choice, the common choice. Thankfully the Shia haven't been infiltrated enough that they also chop off heads then and there after a summary takfir. I'm sure that would also become "reasonable" and "religious" given enough time.

Comparing someone crying due to sadness, which is normal, and in this case sadness due to losing a prophet son and crying so much as to losing eyesight..............

To

Preparing 3 days to sharpen your blade so you can go outside and slash your own back.

Not really a good comparison. 

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2 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

do people only find out about shiism on ashura? what about the other 11 months of the year to do dawah?

When people see specially the young one .. Who are these people cutting themself. The first thing came in there mind is Googling. Bcoz we are in an Internet time. And second thing they found its " SHIA "

How is that ?

I am sure you will find another logic from your own side , bcoz from whatever time i spend in reading your post. I found you never like to accept things. But anyways .. This question from you i read i guess 2nd or 3rd time .. So like to give one point may be it can change your mind.

And in other 11 months we are practicing " Ruhama'u Baynahum "  so that we can make Ummah united atleast on Islamic common principle. But that too ignorant people don't like bcoz it smells more like Wilayat concept.

 

 

Edited by alirex

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On 06/12/2016 at 11:58 AM, DigitalUmmah said:

in situations like this. we refer to maraji fatwas which say something that causes permanent damage/loss of limb/ loss of usage are not permissible. 

 

On 06/12/2016 at 0:11 PM, E.L King said:

Cutting your own limbs off, or removing a power/sense (hearing) is haram according to all scholars, as far as I have seen.

Also, there are special rulings for families mourning their dead, see here:

I was referring to the 'burning' of hands (or any part of the body). Assuming the level of burns admitted are minor and not susceptible to permanent damage, would you consider this admissible? Or in the least would you consider such acts to be discouraged? I am asking frankly, just your general thoughts. Don't worry I have no clandestine agenda to set the poles apart just interested to know whether we consider some level of precaution to deter certain extremes.

The focus being from one extreme to the to the next, the gap is widening. Crawling, falling to the ground in what may appear to be 'Sajud', beating ones chest, face, head, etc are not what is being referred to as extremes (to my understanding). I think everyone needs to pinpoint exactly what they are referring to by removing the clouds and letting the sun shine.

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2 minutes ago, saas said:

I was referring to the 'burning' of hands (or any part of the body). Assuming the level of burns admitted are minor and not susceptible to permanent damage, would you consider this admissible? Or in the least would you consider such acts to be discouraged? I am asking frankly, just your general thoughts. Don't worry I have no clandestine agenda to set the poles apart just interested to know whether we consider some level of precaution to deter certain extremes.

bruv, Ive seen it done. Im fine with it

I've seen guys rest their zanjeer blades on burning coals till the blades are too hot to touch and THEN do zanjeer. ive seen guys crouched on the floor with daggers shaped like ice cream cones then at a signal leap up and thrust the blades into their chests. ive seen men do zanjeer where the chain connects to the middle of the blade instead of the top, so the blade spins like a circular saw as its being swung. Ive seen even more than this. 

everyone as a sane baligh is in charge of their own wellbeing, and so long as no permanent lasting injury is caused, who am I to tell them to stop? I love them and encourage them. 

 

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38 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

bruv, Ive seen it done. Im fine with it

I've seen guys rest their zanjeer blades on burning coals till the blades are too hot to touch and THEN do zanjeer. ive seen guys crouched on the floor with daggers shaped like ice cream cones then at a signal leap up and thrust the blades into their chests. ive seen men do zanjeer where the chain connects to the middle of the blade instead of the top, so the blade spins like a circular saw as its being swung. Ive seen even more than this. 

everyone as a sane baligh is in charge of their own wellbeing, and so long as no permanent lasting injury is caused, who am I to tell them to stop? I love them and encourage them. 

 

But what happens if a baligh youth accidently causes permanet injury. It should only be practiced by elders, and also it could give a bad image of Islam. I just believe that when we are sure only the most responsible people do tatbir and when non muslims understand it so we do not give a bad image of Islam then it should be done.

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On 06/12/2016 at 11:42 PM, Darth Vader said:

Perhaps you should instead ask Yaqoob (as) why he literally cried his eyes out. Or ask God why He added that detail in His Qur'an. I'm sure my reasoning would not cut it in any event. Me having "grown up getting used to tatbir and blood letting". :grin:

:salam:

I would give the same reply as bro Repenter. Tears of a Prophet cannot be put on the same level as your bloody self injuries.

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1 hour ago, DigitalUmmah said:

bruv, Ive seen it done. Im fine with it

I've seen guys rest their zanjeer blades on burning coals till the blades are too hot to touch and THEN do zanjeer. ive seen guys crouched on the floor with daggers shaped like ice cream cones then at a signal leap up and thrust the blades into their chests. ive seen men do zanjeer where the chain connects to the middle of the blade instead of the top, so the blade spins like a circular saw as its being swung. Ive seen even more than this. 

everyone as a sane baligh is in charge of their own wellbeing, and so long as no permanent lasting injury is caused, who am I to tell them to stop? I love them and encourage them. 

 

this is precisely why Ayatullah Naeni mentioned control and professionalism in his fatwa vis a vis tatbeer, not a free for all affair. 

When a professional does it there is control.

When it is free for all there is lack of control.

This control is a very important element.

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2 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

bruv, Ive seen it done. Im fine with it

I've seen guys rest their zanjeer blades on burning coals till the blades are too hot to touch and THEN do zanjeer.

 

I remember the Maulana from 404 ( I think- I meet so many) telling me the story of a Syed brother who did exactly that and spent months in hospital after it peirced his kidneys. Apparently he only did it once

Edited by A true Sunni

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I seem to recall a narration( might be in Nahjul Balagha) about Hz Ali (as) riding his horse in town and when some fellow towns people saw him they dismounted their horses to walk alongside the Holy Imam. When Hz Ali (as) saw this he asked them why they did this. They said we do it to show respect. Hz Ali (as) said this is not how men show men respect.

Seems like we are judging our Imams by our own feeble standards 

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2 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

 

everyone as a sane baligh is in charge of their own wellbeing, and so long as no permanent lasting injury is caused, who am I to tell them to stop? I love them and encourage them. 

 

Well apparently from what you said before you do tell them to stop. You yourself said that the blood letters look out for each other to ensure no harm is done.

However as we all know deaths have occurred of young and old healthy and unhealthy.

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@repenter and others, the debate was about the theory behind show of respect and love in general and to determine its place. Yet posters built strawmans out of tatbir and the ways of ghulat like worshiping symbols and all that. I never intended to delve into such extreme sort of details. I myself don't practice tatbir and no one expects me to start. Its not my duty to criticize and stop people, its the scholars'. I do not know their intention or what is going on in their heads when they are doing it.

Speaking of scholars, some do not mind some practices which e-scholars on here will loathe. At least I don't recall them go all mullah omar over most issues when caution and moderation are exercized.

 

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23 minutes ago, Darth Vader said:

@repenter and others, the debate was about the theory behind show of respect and love in general and to determine its place. Yet posters built strawmans out of tatbir and the ways of ghulat like worshiping symbols and all that. I never intended to delve into such extreme sort of details. I myself don't practice tatbir and no one expects me to start. Its not my duty to criticize and stop people, its the scholars'. I do not know their intention or what is going on in their heads when they are doing it.

Speaking of scholars, some do not mind some practices which e-scholars on here will loathe. At least I don't recall them go all mullah omar over most issues when caution and moderation are exercized.

 

Im sorry, but nahi anil munkar is not for scholars only. That is a strawman statement in itself that just because some scholars say something is ok, it makes it automatically ok. It's a not a fiqh issue that affects only yourself, it affects a society and an ummah, which makes it open to criticizing and questioning.  

The only reason shias get their heads chopped off and are oppressed is because of silent ulama and passive ummah. 

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