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The crawling on torso to the shrines

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:bismillah:

It seems that as time goes on, new and newer practises emerge. Now, whether that is dressing up as a lion and saying that is Ali ibn Abi Talib [auzubillah] as is done in Iraq, or claiming to be the 'dog' of Imam Hussain a.s and going on all fours and some even barking, unless we speak out against these acts rather than assume the ignorant attitude of 'anything goes', superstitions will take the spotlight away from the pure sunnah of Muhammed s.a.w as preserved in our madhab, our superior and correct understanding of Tawheed, and instead, the focus will be on thing which have absolutely nothing to do with the Ahlulbayt asws.

From: http://realtashayyu.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/crawling-in-shrines-and-kissing-them.html

 

Ayatullah al Udhma, Sayed Ali Khamanei (ha):

"The revolution of Imam Hussain (as): Its specialities and focal points" by Ayatullah Khamenei (Original Arabic page posted at the bottom of the post)

'There is a strange bid'ah that people have lately invented, in the method of ziyarah. As you know, all the Imams (as) used to visit the pure grave of the Prophet (pbuh) and the pure graves of the ahlulbayt (as) in Medina, Iraq and Iran; but have you ever heard that any of the Imams (as) or the scholars used to crawl upon his torso from the entrance of the shrines to the grave spot during their ziyarah? So if this act was mustahab or good in itself, then surely the great scholars would have performed it, however, they did not perform such acts. In fact, it has been mentioned that Ayatullah Burujerdi, who was a very pious scholar and leading mujtahid, and a man of pioneering ideas; forbade even the kissing of the doorstep of the shrines of any of the Imams (as).'

"Al Thawrah al hussaiyniyah: Khasais wa murtakizat" (A collection of various lectures by Ayatullah Khamenei, collected and arranged by editors from the "Society of Islamic Cultural knowledge" from Beirut, Lebanon)"

uthba.png


 

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Sayyed Al-Sistani says one shouldn't kiss the doorstep if it will look like you are prostrating, and based on precaution also one shouldn't put his forehead on the ground.

It is haram to prostrate to other than Allah, so anyone prostrating to the graves is committing a major sin.

This whole crawling like a dog thing is a different topic, it's just a stupid thing ignorant people do. Imam Al-Husayn (AS) does not want us to be dogs, rather humans.

Edited by E.L King

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Like E.L. King i'm glad someone raised this issue.

I have seen people react to such statements by the Maraja with stern criticism. Some put on their Insult spewing Adidas boots and go another mile with name calling and belittling the pious. I hope this thread remains positive.

Personally, like many I assume, naturally these innovations just don't sit well with me. I often wondered whether the Members of the Prophet's Immediate family or the Imams (may Allah be pleased with them) practised such acts or in the least regarded them as admissible. Since we see no real evidence, wouldn't the rational be to simply stay away from such demeanour. Even if some practices are not prohibited by the Maraja nor encouraged, that alone effectively invites precautionary measures to be taken seriously. A minor innovation has no brakes and eventually the major ones come crashing in. If it truly is an incentive to seek closeness to the Imam, then shouldn't we be applying ourselves ever so more to the path itself. A greater form of sacrifice would be to try with all our sweat and might to in the least attempt emulation of such highly regarded Imams. It's impossible, but such limited possibilities cannot be championed by any other means of practise.

Some often excuse the matter by appointing the idea that these practices stem from the aggrieved, injured and tearful heart. Sorry but there was no greater pained heart than that of Imam Hussain (as) in Kerbala and yet his originality was far from scourging innovation.

For the record - I am not saying all innovations are bad - just more concerned with certainty that the Imams sacrifice was to REVIVE ISLAM with true representatives who protect and reflect the path as it should be. On top, not to cherry pick illustrations and demo simulations matching the ethos of the lost at sea caveman.

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2 hours ago, uponthesunnah said:

It seems that as time goes on, new and newer practises emerge. Now, whether that is dressing up as a lion and saying that is Ali ibn Abi Talib [auzubillah] as is done in Iraq, or claiming to be the 'dog' of Imam Hussain a.s and going on all fours and some even barking

bismillah.gif

salam1.jpg

And Allah brought us into light from darkness! Some of us don't deserve to be in the light, we are so used to being in the dark. May Allah swt guide us on the right path Inshallah and hasten the reappearance of our Imam e zaman a.s. Ameen.

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"The crawling on torso to the shrines"

 
 
Well, people should learn decent way of expressing their love and emotions. That dog or lion story is bad indeed, one should prefer to become Hur, Zohair, Habib, Muslim etc. true & trustable fellows of Imam Hussain a.s
 
 
Whether one go to shrine by walk or by crawling or on wheel chair, he/she should maintain the level of God given humanity and strive to purify it more and more by adopting and implementing the teachings of Ahlul bait (a.s)
 
Have heard the tradition of masoom where he pointed towards crowd doing tawaf of Kaaba, Masoom showed his companion that most of them were animals (swines & monkeys). 
 
So bad deeds makes us animals in the sight of Masoomeen. We should try to avoid them, strive hard to purify our soul and maintain the humanity which is a gift of Allah.
 
Surah Al-Isra, Verse 70:
وَلَقَدْ كَرَّمْنَا بَنِي آدَمَ وَحَمَلْنَاهُمْ فِي الْبَرِّ وَالْبَحْرِ وَرَزَقْنَاهُم مِّنَ الطَّيِّبَاتِ وَفَضَّلْنَاهُمْ عَلَىٰ كَثِيرٍ مِّمَّنْ خَلَقْنَا تَفْضِيلًا
 
And surely We have honored the children of Adam, and We carry them in the land and the sea, and We have given them of the good things, and We have made them to excel by an appropriate excellence over most of those whom We have created.
(English - Shakir)
 
Edited by Engineer73

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I crawl from the Zarih of Abul Fadhl Abbas (as) to Imam Hussain (as) each time I go.

I do it because I want as much of my body to touch baynul haramein as possible, where the footsteps of the zuwaar for the last thousand years have all touched. I want to do mass of where their feet have fallen. I want to touch as much of - literal - jannah as I can. 

I crawl because crawling removes the arrogance and pride from myself before I present myself before my master. 

if you have a problem with that, or find it worth mocking, or start bringing mullahs fatwas against me, then maybe the problem is with you, not me.  

Edited by DigitalUmmah

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13 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

I crawl from the Zarih of Abul Fadhl Abbas (as) to Imam Hussain (as) each time I go.

I do it because I want as much of my body to touch baynul haramein as possible, where the footsteps of the zuwaar for the last thousand years have all touched. I want to do mass of where their feet have fallen. I want to touch as much of - literal - jannah as I can. 

I crawl because crawling removes the arrogance and pride from myself before I present myself before my master. 

if you have a problem with that, or find it worth mocking, or start bringing mullahs fatwas against me, then maybe the problem is with you, not me.  

It's all good to say that and rationalise that bro, but remember Islamic Fiqh is the standard in the way we worship - we don't allow something because we like it.

I'm also certain you don't mean by crawling - to impersonate a dog? Or an animal?

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11 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

if you have a problem with that, or find it worth mocking, or start bringing mullahs fatwas against me, then maybe the problem is with you, not me.  

Brother, thanks for mentioning your neyah. I think you have misunderstood the point, the objection was on acting like dog while crawling or the lion story mentioned by Hassan Nasrullah.

You go their by becoming their slave, I guess there is no problem in it & this is what i have mentioned:

7 hours ago, Engineer73 said:

Whether one go to shrine by walk or by crawling or on wheel chair, he/she should maintain the level of God given humanity and strive to purify it more and more by adopting and implementing the teachings of Ahlul bait (a.s)

 

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9 minutes ago, E.L King said:

It's all good to say that and rationalise that bro, but remember Islamic Fiqh is the standard in the way we worship - we don't allow something because we like it.

all things are allowed in our fiqh unless they are specifically forbidden. No Imam (as) forbade us from doing this. 

9 minutes ago, E.L King said:

I'm also certain you don't mean by crawling - to impersonate a dog? Or an animal?

no, I don't impersonate a dog/ animal and I must by now be among the shiachatters who have been on ziarat the most, I've never seen anyone acting like a dog. if it happens, it isnt so common that is being made out. 

the dressing up like a lion I have seen, they usually do the re enactment on the 11th or 12th muharram. stories vary what its meant to represent. some say Imam Hussain (as) had a lion at karbala, some say Lady Fidha (as) had a lion at karbala, I havent heard anything about lions at karbala. I'm a paki, I don't personally like any plays/ depictions of Masumeen and karbala, or even pictures of the Imams, and I dont like musical instruments used in azadari so I put it in the same bracket as "not my form of azadari but not my business so let them do what they want"

 

Edited by DigitalUmmah

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12 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

all things are allowed in our fiqh unless they are specifically forbidden. No Imam (as) forbade us from doing this. 

no, I don't impersonate a dog/ animal and I must by now be among the shiachatters who have been on ziarat the most, I've never seen anyone acting like a dog. if it happens, it isnt so common that is being made out. 

the dressing up like a lion I have seen, they usually do the re enactment on the 11th or 12th muharram. stories vary what its meant to represent. some say Imam Hussain (as) had a lion at karbala, some say Lady Fidha (as) had a lion at karbala, I havent heard anything about lions at karbala. I'm a paki, I don't personally like any plays/ depictions of Masumeen and karbala, or even pictures of the Imams, and I dont like musical instruments used in azadari so I put it in the same bracket as "not my form of azadari but not my business so let them do what they want"

 

Well the Fiqh does say it is haram to prostrate to other than Allah, and some scholars also seem to have an issue with some actions "looking like" prostrations, and also putting your forehead on the Holy Doorstep.

That's all I am saying bro

:)

I am also not a fan of imagery and depictions, in movies, plays, paintings or otherwise.

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Few Actions in Sunnah Better Than Many Actions in Bid'ah

 
A lot of people have told me, “If you weaken all the practices we do, then we will be left with very little actions to do”. Here is a aī (Authentic) hadīth from the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)telling us that a few deeds done following the Sunnah is better than many deeds done in Bid`ah(innovation).
 
وَ هُوَ يَقُولُ قَلِيلٌ فِي سُنَّةٍ خَيْرٌ مِنْ كَثِيرٍ فِي بِدْعَةٍ
And he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: “Few (actions) in sunnah is better than many (actions) in bid`ah
Source:
1. Al-Tūsī, Tahdhīb al-Aḥkām, 10 vols., (Tehran: Dār al-Kutub al-Islāmiyyah, 4th Edition, 1407 AH), vol. 3, pg. 70, hadeeth # 29
Grading:
1. Al-Majlisī said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)
à Milādh al-Akhyār (Qum: Maktabah Ayatollah al-Mar`ashī al-Najafī, 1406 AH), vol. 5, pg. 28
 

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2 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

^^ apart from doing the work of the nasibi for them, what are you gaining by spreading this fitna amongst shia and increasing its awareness in the world?

abu musa al ashari.  

How would you like shias to be educated then? We don't have our own secret youtube channel that only shia dna can access. 

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5 minutes ago, repenter said:

How would you like shias to be educated then? We don't have our own secret youtube channel that only shia dna can access. 

Let me point out, the people recording these things are shia's. The people doing these things are shia's. And if someone feels ashamed to see them spread, they ought to re-think about supporting these acts.

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all things are allowed in our fiqh unless they are specifically forbidden. No Imam (as) forbade us from doing this. 

The dangerous with this thinking is that it can allow things (that are related more to emotional)   like these and even worse in future. Keep in the mind that rationality is very important and Allah have encouraged rationality on all matters.  These kind of actions are not rational, thus doing them should be avoided even if they are not haram. 

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4 hours ago, E.L King said:

Well the Fiqh does say it is haram to prostrate to other than Allah, and some scholars also seem to have an issue with some actions "looking like" prostrations, and also putting your forehead on the Holy Doorstep.

That's all I am saying bro

:)

I am also not a fan of imagery and depictions, in movies, plays, paintings or otherwise.

I kiss the door of Shrine of  Imam (as) but not in the way of prostration.

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53 minutes ago, repenter said:

How would you like shias to be educated then?

Well, if you continue to educate this way, people will go away from you, that is what i feel.

One should adopt the sunnah of Prophet Muhammad in teaching/educating brothers. Why not be "Harees" for momineen?

Surah At-Taubah, Verse 128:

لَقَدْ جَاءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ مِّنْ أَنفُسِكُمْ عَزِيزٌ عَلَيْهِ مَا عَنِتُّمْ حَرِيصٌ عَلَيْكُم بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ رَءُوفٌ رَّحِيمٌ

Certainly an Apostle has come to you from among yourselves; grievous to him is your falling into distress, excessively solicitous respecting you; to the believers (he is) compassionate,

(English - Shakir)

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5 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

Well, if you continue to educate this way, people will go away from you, that is what i feel.

One should adopt the sunnah of Prophet Muhammad in teaching/educating brothers. Why not be "Harees" for momineen?

Surah At-Taubah, Verse 128:

لَقَدْ جَاءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ مِّنْ أَنفُسِكُمْ عَزِيزٌ عَلَيْهِ مَا عَنِتُّمْ حَرِيصٌ عَلَيْكُم بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ رَءُوفٌ رَّحِيمٌ

Certainly an Apostle has come to you from among yourselves; grievous to him is your falling into distress, excessively solicitous respecting you; to the believers (he is) compassionate,

(English - Shakir)

Pretty sure more people have become aware of what is wrong and what is right due to youtube. If you are naive enough to believe everything that is on youtube without critical thinking, then you would drop from religion sooner or later anyways. 

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22 minutes ago, repenter said:

Pretty sure more people have become aware of what is wrong and what is right due to youtube. If you are naive enough to believe everything that is on youtube without critical thinking, then you would drop from religion sooner or later anyways. 

What I am observing here in Pakistan, is different from what you claim. People are leaving usooli aqaid & turning towards akhbari's. They started following zakireen instead of fuqaha.

There started to appear a clear divide among Shias, which was not present before.

For me, it is a painful situation. 

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Just now, Engineer73 said:

What I am observing here in Pakistan, is different from what you claim. People are leaving usooli aqaid & turning towards akhbari's. They started following zakireen instead of fuqaha.

There started to appear a clear divide among Shias, which was not present before.

For me, it is a painful situation. 

And this was due to youtube?................

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3 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

What I am observing here in Pakistan, is different from what you claim. People are leaving usooli aqaid & turning towards akhbari's. They started following zakireen instead of fuqaha.

There started to appear a clear divide among Shias, which was not present before.

For me, it is a painful situation. 

My dear brother,

I would love to gain further insight into what is going on in pakistan. I understand you may have some duties and other work to get on, and so i do not want to overburden you and only reply if you have time [or wish to]:

1. Could you elaborate as to who these 'zakireen' are in Pakistan? Any video's on them? And what sorts of things do they say?

Anything else about the situation in pakistan would be very useful.

But it is indeed painful.

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