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Imamate in the Quran

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41 minutes ago, King said:

The fact that you even have to goto such lengths to establish imamat as a core and foundational concept makes little sense.

I suppose there's a difference between comprehensive arguments and brevity. I could have simply presented hadith al-ghadeer, hadith al-thaqalayn, and hadith of the twelve successors, and stated that Shiism has the most natural explanations to these three events. But some people want more detailed arguments, ones that are foolproof, and so I based my argument on muhkam ayat of the Quran that have little wiggle room.

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On 1/4/2017 at 7:20 PM, Fahad Sani said:

Thus it means the final and absolute authority is only for Allah and for  His Prophet s.a.w.w. While the obedience of ulil amr is not ultimate  or absolute, in other words obedience is conditional in case of ulil  amr. Thats why Allah said in the same verse "if you quarrel about  anything  refer it to Allah and the Prophet".

if you think, we can dispute/quarrel with Ulil Amri, let's ponder about this verse ( a very clear cut command _not_ to dispute/quarrel).
 

[Shakir 8:46] And obey Allah and His Messenger and do not quarrel for then you will be weak in hearts and your power will depart, and be patient; surely Allah is with the patient.

keeping the above verse in mind, it's very obvious to me these 2 following statements mean not the same thing:

1. then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger [4:59] --> implying we may dispute/disagree, though this contradicts verse [8:46]

2. then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; [4:59] -->this could only mean a rebuke to those among "believers" who fit the description of verse [4:60].

[Shakir 4:60] Have you not seen those who assert that they believe in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before you? They desire to summon one another to the judgment of the Shaitan, though they were commanded to deny him, and the Shaitan desires to lead them astray into a remote error.
 

with respect to [4:59], true believers will say "we hear and we obey" but asked the Prophet "who are these ulil amri?". the not-so-true believers will doubt if this command is from Allah).

i see some truth in the statement: quraish hated to see prophethood and caliphate confined to one family only.

some later on people takwil obedience to ulil amri is conditional so that it fits well with the kingship of umayyads and abbassiyads.

so ulil amri is not your everyday men charged with authority.

 

Ali Bin Ibrahim, from his father, from Ibn Abu Umeyr, from Uman Bin Azina, from Bureyd Bin Muawiya who said,

Abu Ja’far asws recited “[4:59] O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, and to the Guardian asws of the Command among you (Ul-Al-Amr)”.

Then said: ‘How can He azwj Command for their asws obedience and then allow them (the people) to dispute with them asws . But rather, He azwj has Said that to the Commanded ones when He azwj Said to them (the people): “Obey Allah and obey the Rasool”. 119

119 Al Kafi – H 14660

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