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Spiritual

Does every effect have to have a cause?

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50 minutes ago, Spiritual said:

Where that world comes from? in which you evolved.

The Universe is an effect which came about from the rearrangement of existing material which were present in the Big Bang.

The universe evolved by self-organization of matter towards more and more complex structures.  
Atoms, stars and galaxies self-assembled out of the fundamental particles produced by the Big Bang. 
The Earth is tiny part of a small galaxy. The earth was never created; it simply being a large space rock that was pulled into the sun's orbit, and then sculpted by solar wind and meteorites into the shape it currently has.

(If you have a bottle of water and go to empty it, you will find that the water "self organizes” in a vortex movement without requiring any intelligence. I believe that galaxies have followed a similar pattern.) 

Organisation does not require intelligence; matter constantly and automatically self-organises. The sciences are seeing evidence of Self-Organization across a wide spectrum that includes physics (where it is most evident), chemistry (where it is called self-assembly), biology, mathematics, computer science, cybernetics, sociology, anthropology and economics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-Organization
http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Self-organization

 

52 minutes ago, Spiritual said:

With this, do you mean why we feel pain? & Why we die?

If you read the last three paragraphs of my previous post you should understand what I mean. 

wslm.

*

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1 hour ago, Quisant said:

The Universe is an effect which came about from the rearrangement of existing material which were present in the Big Bang.

Is this not a circular  argument?

1 hour ago, Quisant said:

The universe evolved by self-organization of matter towards more and more complex structures.

Ok, & it then give away that complex structure & went back to its simpler state, as you mentioned earlier in rearrangement argument.

1 hour ago, Quisant said:

Organisation does not require intelligence; matter constantly and automatically self-organises. The sciences are seeing evidence of Self-Organization across a wide spectrum that includes physics (where it is most evident), chemistry (where it is called self-assembly), biology, mathematics, computer science, cybernetics, sociology, anthropology and economics

"Self-organization is a process where some form of overall order or coordination arises out of the local interactions between smaller component parts of an initially disordered system. The process of self-organization can be spontaneous, and it is not necessarily controlled by any auxiliary agent outside of the system. In physics, chemistry and biology self-organization occurs in open systems driven away from thermal equilibrium."


I think the above paragraph itself sufficient to refute what you're trying to say. Do we understand Universe as open system?

The term self-organizing systems refers to a class of systems that are able to change their internal structures and their functions in response to external circumstances. By self-Organization it is understood that elements of a system are able to manipulate or organize other elements of the same system in a way that stabilizes either structure or function of the whole against external fluctuations.

& what else, it do indicate the existence of intelligence. So your point is testifying my words that a system cannot work unless it knows the principles or procedures to which something is done. The existence of self organized systems are one example.

 

Edited by Spiritual

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6 hours ago, Quisant said:

 

A very nice post, I always find it interesting to read someone else's view point. 


(Stupefying coincidence is still just a coincidence, unless you can show that there's intent, not just assert it.)

I have come to different conclusions, I believe that we evolved to fit the world, not the other way around. The "fine tuning argument" assumes that the Universe had us (people) in mind while it was forming its laws. 

It didn't. It did not even have any laws in mind. Life evolved over billions of years to fit already existing Universe. Not the other way around. 

The universe is fine tuned for life in the same way that holes in the ground are fined tuned for puddles.
I noticed that usually' when Creationists talk about God creating every individual species, they always instance hummingbirds, or orchids, sunflowers and beautiful things.

They never mention, for example, that there exits in West Africa a parasitic worm that lives in water and bores its way into the eyeballs of human beings, eating its way through them, turning people blind. Children are specially effected because they enjoy playing in the water.

I find that very difficult to reconcile the notion of a benign God imagining, designing and bringing into existence  a worm that's going to turn people blind in excruciating pain. 

And I certainly find it difficult to believe that a God might exist who would actually do that.

I guess we all think different.

wslm.

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But what brings you to that conclusion if there is ample evidence of a creator? The fine tuning argument explains how the universe and its laws cannot exist by nature, unless there is an intelligent designer. The universe is a finite system with created laws to support matter and energy, and life as well.

Yes there are creatures that could harm us but if going by your logic, why than did god create lions or tigers that can devour humans, or snakes that can poison and kill us, or sharks, wolves, scorpions and etc.  God is not responsible for the foolishness of a person, nor is he responsible for greed, pride, hatred, cruelty, laziness, selfishness and etc.  The more one struggles the more he is rewarded in the hereafter. 

 

But it's like what you said, everyone thinks different. If you think with all the arguments for god provided wasn't as convincing than you are entitled to your opinion.

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