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Believing the unseen is rational?

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3 hours ago, baradar_jackson said:

And not just because irrational behavior is condemned in the Quran.

Tell me one thing, is it irrational to follow the one which is Supreme in knowledge?
Now tell me, did we traced via logic & reason, which is supreme in knowledge?

 

3 hours ago, baradar_jackson said:

because you are trying to argue against reason using a logical process, that process being based on the premises, 1) belief in the unseen is irrational, 2) the Quran upholds belief in the unseen, and therefore: (your conclusion) belief in the unseen and therefore, belief in Islam necessitates suspension of rational faculties.

Am I really arguing against reason?
How can "belief" becomes rational or irrational? It is an acceptance of something, especially one without proof. So is it irrational to accept something without proof? Why do we assume then? The principal of logic is to "assume" a thing/a point as fact. A valid argument is one where there is a specific relation of logical support between the assumptions of the argument and its conclusion.

So what is our assumption in case of belief? "There is no god, but Allah". LA ILAHA ILLALLAH

Test this statement by applying logic. Find out its premises & provide logical support for its conclusion by using your intellect. A challenge to all professors who are teaching the logic & reason in universities.

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I think it means to trust in the vision of our heart, and it particularly refers to believing in the guidance of Imam Mahdi and Quran. We are being guided by him, it's just a matter of perceiving. The more we have faith, the stronger we will sense this guidance, and the stronger our link will become. The more we lack faith, the more in a sense we a lack a guide.

"Yaseen" is not only the Messenger's ability to hear the revelation, but was his ability to make others hear because his light and power extends to all things. 

He is the pure guide outwardly, and inwardly in you. 

Imam Mahdi lives within us all, and the unseen here particularly refers to believing in his Imammate and authority while not physically present.

You learn this after time, after experience with the Quran, and with the blessed ahadith explaining Quran.

Some people the light is so manifest, they see Imam in a clear way. But all have to make the journey to that vision, and certainty.

That said, you can reason yourself to this guidance. And "reason" itself has many definitions, the way it is defined by Quran and Ahlulbayt, it certainly is part of reason.

 

Edited by LinkZelda

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3 hours ago, LinkZelda said:

That said, you can reason yourself to this guidance. And "reason" itself has many definitions, the way it is defined by Quran and Ahlulbayt, it certainly is part of reason.

Yes brother, we can reason, we are humans with ability to reason. But for un-seen, all of our reasons & logic worth nothing unless we take support of divine reasonings mentioned in Quran and explained by Ahlulbait a.s

It is His blessing that He has given us the toufeeq to accept the fact and ponder in the verses of Quran & signs mentioned therein.

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13 hours ago, Spiritual said:

Yes, So this takes you to infinity, a question here is that does infinity causing any problem to us?

There is an-infinite cause, this is an assertion and denial of earlier mentioned fact itself.
The argument therefore collapsed at its initial stage.

If you're saying that there is an infinite cause, this would mean that every cause not necessarily have to have a cause. The rules of business have to be changed according to this statement (if considered as fact). Then there can be/should be many uncaused causes. If you assume that, that uncaused cause is god than there can be/should be many gods.

That is end of your argument.

 

 

I barely understood what you meant to be honest, did you say all uncaused causes should be god? That doesn't make sense because uncaused causes are not infinite since they don't even exist. If they were to be caused than they would be finite. Only the infinite cause is god, the master of everything. I don't really understand your whole argument there but it seems like no matter what I say to you, you will never change your opinion so it makes it pointless for me to argue. I just hope you do more research on this matter.

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8 hours ago, Sayed Hassan Y. said:

I barely understood what you meant to be honest, did you say all uncaused causes should be god? That doesn't make sense because uncaused causes are not infinite since they don't even exist. If they were to be caused than they would be finite. Only the infinite cause is god, the master of everything. I don't really understand your whole argument there but it seems like no matter what I say to you, you will never change your opinion so it makes it pointless for me to argue. I just hope you do more research on this matter.

How can you understand your fallacies!

Here is what you have posted:

1. Did you say all uncaused causes should be god?

2.This doesn't make sense BECAUSE uncaused causes are NOT INFINITE.

And here again what you have said:

3. Only the infinite cause is god.

Is it time for you to laugh or to cry?

First uncaused cause is infinte. There are many uncaused causes but all of the are finite except one which is first cause. 

Edited by Spiritual

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On 11/5/2016 at 6:02 AM, walaihusaini said:

Quran says BELIEVE. Religion is based on faith and belief, not logic and rationality. We only use logic and rationality because we're human and we want to understand certain things to actually believe in them but since human logic is limited there are certain things one must just believe and have faith in. Which is why we sometimes refer to religion as "faith"

Faith without reason is called blind faith. Just like those who believe in sky fairies etc

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13 minutes ago, iraqi_shia said:

Faith without reason is called blind faith. Just like those who believe in sky fairies etc

I dont know what reason you invent for your faith, our reason is this:

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 101:

وَكَيْفَ تَكْفُرُونَ وَأَنتُمْ تُتْلَىٰ عَلَيْكُمْ آيَاتُ اللَّهِ وَفِيكُمْ رَسُولُهُ وَمَن يَعْتَصِم بِاللَّهِ فَقَدْ هُدِيَ إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ

But how can you disbelieve while it is you to whom the communications of Allah are recited, and among you is His Apostle? And whoever holds fast to Allah, he indeed is guided to the right path.

(English - Shakir)

Surah Ar-Room, Verse 11:

اللَّهُ يَبْدَأُ الْخَلْقَ ثُمَّ يُعِيدُهُ ثُمَّ إِلَيْهِ تُرْجَعُونَ

Allah originates the creation, then reproduces it, then to Him you shall be brought back.

(English - Shakir)

You invent reasons & reach to god, we have reasons which took us to Allah.

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1 minute ago, Spiritual said:

I dont know what reason you invent for your faith, our reason is this:

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 101:

وَكَيْفَ تَكْفُرُونَ وَأَنتُمْ تُتْلَىٰ عَلَيْكُمْ آيَاتُ اللَّهِ وَفِيكُمْ رَسُولُهُ وَمَن يَعْتَصِم بِاللَّهِ فَقَدْ هُدِيَ إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ

But how can you disbelieve while it is you to whom the communications of Allah are recited, and among you is His Apostle? And whoever holds fast to Allah, he indeed is guided to the right path.

(English - Shakir)

Surah Ar-Room, Verse 11:

اللَّهُ يَبْدَأُ الْخَلْقَ ثُمَّ يُعِيدُهُ ثُمَّ إِلَيْهِ تُرْجَعُونَ

Allah originates the creation, then reproduces it, then to Him you shall be brought back.

(English - Shakir)

You invent reasons & reach to god, we have reasons which took us to Allah.

What exactly are you trying to put forward here?

Are you trying to say we should have no reason for faith, or should we have a reason?

If we have a reason, should it not be a rational one, eg one that is based on sound logic and proof?

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1 minute ago, iraqi_shia said:

What exactly are you trying to put forward here?

Are you trying to say we should have no reason for faith, or should we have a reason?

If we have a reason, should it not be a rational one, eg one that is based on sound logic and proof?

1. We have reasons to believe in Allah.

2. Our logic & reason is Quran & Ahlulbait a.s, this is the shortest response i can give. If you ponder in verse 3:101 & 30:11, you can extract the reasons.

First cause argument is a fallacy, i have mentioned my logical refutation of that argument.

Regarding with proof, read the Quran & see what people have did with prophets. Prophets even showed them miricles as a proof. And you know the result. Did the prophets converted every disbeliever into believer?

Surah Ya Seen, Verse 7:

لَقَدْ حَقَّ الْقَوْلُ عَلَىٰ أَكْثَرِهِمْ فَهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ

Certainly the word has proved true of most of them, so they do not believe.

(English - Shakir)

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Proving the existance of Supreme Being is not difficult. After observing the state of the art systems like universe & life, one have just two options to assume:

1. Either these systems are created

2. Or These systems originated spontaneously.

Considering option 2 for assuming, one encounter severe logical difficulties or impossibilities to move ahead with this assumption. One of that difficulty is the rules of business or laws of nature, where these comes from? Where the attributes of every thing comes from? This is the  knowledge paradox.

So we have to assume option 1 to avoid knowledge paradox. Now there are no logical difficulties or impossibilities. These systems are created, created by a being supreme in knowlede & power. Knowledge & power themself demands the existence of conscious living being.

Again this is not my invented reason. Allah says in Quran:

Surah At-tur, Verse 35:

أَمْ خُلِقُوا مِنْ غَيْرِ شَيْءٍ أَمْ هُمُ الْخَالِقُونَ

Or were they created without there being anything, or are they the creators?

(English - Shakir)

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15 hours ago, Spiritual said:

How can you understand your fallacies!

Here is what you have posted:

1. Did you say all uncaused causes should be god?

2.This doesn't make sense BECAUSE uncaused causes are NOT INFINITE.

And here again what you have said:

3. Only the infinite cause is god.

Is it time for you to laugh or to cry?

First uncaused cause is infinte. There are many uncaused causes but all of the are finite except one which is first cause. 

Uncaused causes mean a cause that didn't need a cause to be created. Uncaused causes cannot exist UNLESS it is infinite. Non-existent causes are causes that never existed because they never had a cause to cause it, making them finite. The first cause is the only uncaused cause, therefore making it infinite. This isn't hard to understand, just open your mind and think.

Edited by Sayed Hassan Y.

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5 hours ago, Sayed Hassan Y. said:

Uncaused causes mean a cause that didn't need a cause to be created. Uncaused causes cannot exist UNLESS it is infinite.

 

5 hours ago, Sayed Hassan Y. said:

Non-existent causes are causes that never existed because they never had a cause to cause it, making them finite

 

5 hours ago, Sayed Hassan Y. said:

The first cause is the only uncaused cause, therefore making it infinite

Reductio ad absurdum

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3 hours ago, Spiritual said:

 

 

Reductio ad absurdum

kScH3ON.gif

I feel like I'm arguing with a 8 year old that cannot comprehend simple english. You actually made me lose some brain cells.

Edited by Sayed Hassan Y.

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5 minutes ago, Sayed Hassan Y. said:

kScH3ON.gif

I feel like I'm arguing with a 8 year old that cannot comprehend simple english. You actually made me lose some brain cells.

Don't get upset brother, your argument is the best. Keep it up :)   

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