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Believing the unseen is rational?

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4 hours ago, Spiritual said:

I dont know why my friends are so confused in accepting the very basic fact. From where we learn hikmah? Your every reason & logic became a fallacy if collided with verses of Quran.

Surah Al-Jumua, Verse 2:

هُوَ الَّذِي بَعَثَ فِي الْأُمِّيِّينَ رَسُولًا مِّنْهُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتِهِ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَإِن كَانُوا مِن قَبْلُ لَفِي ضَلَالٍ مُّبِينٍ

He it is Who raised among the inhabitants of Mecca an Apostle from among themselves, who recites to them His communications and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, although they were before certainly in clear error,

(English - Shakir)

 

 

So you think the Quran contradicts reason?

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2 hours ago, strangelove said:

You saying that someone else logically proved the existence of God isn't a very strong argument. You can use the argument used by that person to prove the existence of God but just saying that someone else did it isn't really logical proof. 

I believe in God btw. I'm only saying how it isn't logical.

Im not sure what you mean. Gods existence is rationally known. I only referred you to the book so you can have access to it and be aware of the arguments. 

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6 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

For example our belief on tauheed is very reasonable and rational compared to that of the salafi tauheed or christian or hindu etc.

LOL,

Now this statement is also advocating my point.

Salafi belief on touheed, Christians believe in trinity nature of touheed, hindu believe in touheed. What makes our touheed rational? Our reasons & our logic? Or the arguments and reasons of choosen ones posseses divine knowledge.

7 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

You seem to be proposing that a person submits to the truth without recognising it as the truth first. 

Ahh, you means any statement which includes reason & logic (rationality) and which satisfies the intellect should be understood as truth. So we should start accepting every scientific theory based on these principles even if it deny the existence of creator. Or we should test every statement and those who have said " we have heard & we obey" were wrong?

Please notice, what people asked from prophets? Logic or Reason? Or they asked to display the divine knowledge & power? 

ـ الإمامُ الكاظمُ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ) ـ لَمّا سُئلَ عَن أدنَى المَعرِفةِ ـ: الإقرارُ بأ نَّهُ لا إلهَ غَيرُهُ ، ولا شِبهَ لَهُ ولا نَظيرَ وأ نَّهُ قَديمٌ ، مُثبَتٌ ، مَوجودٌ ، غَيرُ فَقيدٍ ، وأ نَّهُ لَيسَ كَمِثلِه شَيءٌ . 

 

Imam al-Kazim (AS), when he was asked about the lowest degree of inner knowledge, replied, ‘It is to affirm that there is no god but He, and that He has no likeness or match, and that He is eternal, positively proven to exist, present and not absent, and that there is nothing like Him.’[al-Kafi, v. 1, p. 86, no. 1]

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ـ الإمامُ الحسينُ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ) ـ في الدُّعاءِ ـ: إلهي تَرَدُّدي في الآثارِ يُوجِبُ بُعدَ المَزارِ ، فاجمَعْني عَلَيكَ بِخِدمَةٍ تُوصِلُني إلَيكَ ، كَيفَ يُستَدَلُّ عَلَيكَ بِما هُوَ في وُجودِهِ مُفتَقِرٌ إلَيكَ؟! أيَكونُ لِغَيرِكَ مِنَ الظُّهورِ ما لَيسَ لَكَ حتّى يَكونَ هُوَالمُظهِرَ لَكَ ؟! متى غِبتَ حتّى تَحتاجَ إلى دَليلٍ يَدُلُّ عَلَيكَ؟! ... بِكَ أستَدِلُّ عَلَيكَ فَاهْدِني بِنورِكَ إلَيكَ. 

 

Imam al-Husayn (AS) said in one of his supplications, ‘My God! My own obscure doubts about the signs [in nature] has caused my distance from my goal, so draw me near to You through Your service that may allow me to reach You. How can something that needs You for its very existence be used to prove Your existence?! Are other things more manifest than You that they be used to point to You?! When were You ever absent that You should need anything to prove Your existence?! Through You alone do I arrive at You, so guide me with Your light to Yourself.’[Bihar al-Anwar, v. 98, p. 225]

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ـ الإمامِ زينِ العابدينَ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ) ـ في الدّعاءِ ـ: بِكَ عَرَفتُكَ و أنتَ دَلَلتَني عَلَيكَ و دَعَوتَني إلَيكَ ، و لَولا أنتَ لَم أدرِ ما أنتَ. 

 

Imam Zayn al-Abidin (AS) said in one of his supplications, ‘I have attained knowledge of You through You, and You are the One Who indicated me to Yourself and called me to Yourself, and were it not for You, I would not know who You are.’[Iqbal al-A`amal, v. 1, p. 157]

Edited by Spiritual

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ـ الإمامُ الرِّضا (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ) ـ في صِفَةِ اللّه‏ِ سُبحانَهُ ـ: هُوَ أجَلُّ مِن أن يُدرِكَهُ بَصَرٌ ، أو يُحيطَ بِه وَهمٌ ، أو يَضبِطَهُ عَقلٌ. 

 

Imam al-Rida (AS) said in his description of Allah, Glory be to Him, ‘He is too exalted for sight to be able to perceive Him, for imagination to be able to fathom Him, and for the intellect to be able to grasp Him.’[al-Tawhid, p. 252, no. 3]

 

ـ الإمام زينُ العابدينَ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ) ـ في الدّعاءِ ـ: عَجَزَتِ العُقولُ عَن إدراكِ كُنهِ جَمالِكَ ، وانحَسَرَتِ الأبصارُ دونَ‏النَّظَرِ إلى سُبُحاتِ وَجهِكَ، ولَم تَجعَلْ لِلخَلقِ طَريقا إلى مَعرِفَتِكَ إلّا بِالعَجزِ عَن مَعرِفَتِكَ . 

 

Imam Zayn al-Abidin (AS) said in one of his supplications, ‘The intellects are incapable of fathoming the essence of Your Beauty, the sights are restricted to looking at other than the splendour of Your Countenance, and You have not set aside any means for Your creation to get to know You except through their complete incapacity of knowing You.’[Bihar al-Anwar, v. 94, p. 150, no. 21]

 

ـ الإمامُ عليٌ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ): فلَسنا نَعلَمُ كُنهَ عَظَمَتِكَ، إلّا أنّا نَعلَمُ أنَّكَ حَيٌّ قَيّومٌ ، لا تَأخُذُكَ سِنَةٌ ولا نَومٌ ، لَم يَنتَهِ إلَيكَ نَظَرٌ ، ولَم يُدرِكْكَ بَصَرٌ . 

 

Imam Ali (AS) said, ‘We do not know the essence of Your greatness. All that we do know is that You are Ever-Living and Self-Subsisting through Whom all things subsist. Drowsiness and sleep do not overtake You, vision does not reach You and sight cannot perceive You.’[Nahj al-Balagha, Sermon 160]

 

ـ رسولُ اللهِ‏ِ (صَلَّيَ اللهُ عَلَيهِ وَ آلِهِ): تَفَكَّروا في خَلقِ اللّه‏ِ ، ولا تَفَكَّروا في اللّه‏ِ فتَهلِكوا. 

 

The Prophet (SAWA) said, ‘Ponder about the creation of Allah, but do not ponder about Allah Himself lest you be ruined.’[Kanz al-`Ummal, no. 5705]

 

ـ الإمامُ الصّادقُ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ): إيّاكُم والتَّفَكُّرَ في اللّه‏ِ؛ فإنَّ التَّفَكُّرَ في اللّه‏ِ لا يَزيدُ إلّا تِيهاً ، إنَّ اللّه‏َ عَزَّوجلَّ لا تُدرِكُهُ الأبصارُ ولا يُوصَفُ بِمِقدارٍ. 

 

Imam al-Sadiq (AS) said, ‘Beware of pondering about Allah, for verily pondering about Allah only increases one’s bewilderment. Verily Allah, Mighty and Exalted, cannot be perceived by the sights or described by any type of criteria.’[Amali al-Saduq, p. 340, no. 3]

 

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ـ الإمامِ الصّادقِ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ): قالَ رجلٌ عندهُ: اللّه‏ُ أكبَرُ، فقالَ: اللّه‏ُ أكبَرُ مِن أيِّ شَيءٍ ؟ فقالَ: مِن كُلِّ شَيءٍ ، فقالَ أبو عَبدِ اللّه‏ِ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ): حَدَّدتَهُ، فقالَ الرَّجُلُ: كَيفَ أقولُ ؟ قالَ: قُل: اللّه‏ُ أكبَرُ مِن أن يُوصَفَ . 

 

Imam al-Sadiq (AS) asked a man who said ‘Allah is Greater’ (Allahu Akbar), ‘Greater than what?’ So the man replied, ‘Greater than everything’, to which Imam (AS) retorted, ‘Then you have defined Him.’ The man then asked him, ‘So what should I say?’ Imam replied, ‘Say: Allah is too great for description.’[al-Kafi, v. 1, p. 117, no. 8]

 

ـ الإمامُ الكاظمُ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ): إنَّ اللّه‏َ أعلى وأجَلُّ وأعظَمُ مِن أن يُبلَغَ كُنهُ صِفَتِهِ ، فَصِفُوهُ بِما وَصَفَ بِهِ نَفسَهُ ، وكُفّوا عَمّا سِوى ذلكَ . 

 

Imam al-Kazim (AS) said, ‘Verily Allah is too High and too Exalted and too Great for the reality of His description to ever be possible, so describe Him as He Himself has described Himself, and desist from anything other than that.’[al-Kafi, v. 1, p. 102, no. 6]

 

ـ الإمامُ الهاديُّ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ): إنّ الخالِقَ لا يُوصَفُ إلّا بِما وَصَفَ بِهِ نَفسَهُ ، وأنّى يُوصَفُ الخالِقُ الّذي تَعجُزُ الحَواسُّ أن تُدرِكَهُ، والأوهامُ أن تَنالَهُ ، والخَطَراتُ أن تَحُدَّهُ ، والأبصارُ عَنِ الإحاطَةِ بِهِ؟! جلَّ عَمّا يَصِفُهُ الواصِفونَ ، وتَعالى عَمّا يَنعَتُهُ الناعِتونَ. 

 

Imam al-Hadi (AS) said, ‘Verily the Creator can only be described by that which He Himself has described Himself, and how can the Creator ever be described anyway, Whom the senses are incapable of perceiving and the imaginations unable to grasp and the ideas unable to confine and the sights unable to contain?! He is too exalted for the description of those who undertake to describe, and too high to be attributed by those who seek to attach attributes to Him.’[Kashf al-Ghamma, v. 3, p. 176]

 

 

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8 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

So you think the Quran contradicts reason?

Nope, Quran gives the reasons, it is the FURQAN. 

Your reason & logic (rationality) in describing or believing the unseen worth nothing. Look at the ahadith of masomeen a.s.

"How can something that needs You for its very existence be used to prove Your existence?! Are other things more manifest than You that they be used to point to You?! When were You ever absent that You should need anything to prove Your existence?! Through You alone do I arrive at You, so guide me with Your light to Yourself." (Imam Hussain a.s)

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4 hours ago, Spiritual said:

Christians believe in trinity nature of touheed

لَّقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ ثَالِثُ ثَلَاثَةٍ ۘ وَمَا مِنْ إِلَٰهٍ إِلَّا إِلَٰهٌ وَاحِدٌ ۚ وَإِن لَّمْ يَنتَهُوا عَمَّا يَقُولُونَ لَيَمَسَّنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ

  لَقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ ۖ وَقَالَ الْمَسِيحُ يَا بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ اعْبُدُوا اللَّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ ۖ إِنَّهُ مَن يُشْرِكْ بِاللَّهِ فَقَدْ حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ الْجَنَّةَ وَمَأْوَاهُ النَّارُ ۖ وَمَا لِلظَّالِمِينَ مِنْ أَنصَارٍ

Hindus don't believe in Tawheed, who believes in Tawheed is considered to be a muslim, It's not that simple.

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9 minutes ago, yasahebalzaman.313 said:

لَّقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ ثَالِثُ ثَلَاثَةٍ ۘ وَمَا مِنْ إِلَٰهٍ إِلَّا إِلَٰهٌ وَاحِدٌ ۚ وَإِن لَّمْ يَنتَهُوا عَمَّا يَقُولُونَ لَيَمَسَّنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ

  لَقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ ۖ وَقَالَ الْمَسِيحُ يَا بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ اعْبُدُوا اللَّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ ۖ إِنَّهُ مَن يُشْرِكْ بِاللَّهِ فَقَدْ حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ الْجَنَّةَ وَمَأْوَاهُ النَّارُ ۖ وَمَا لِلظَّالِمِينَ مِنْ أَنصَارٍ

Hindus don't believe in Tawheed, who believes in Tawheed is considered to be a muslim, It's not that simple.

If you see the Christian or Hindu doctrine, you can know their concept of oneness of god.

Christians advocates the triune nature of one god & as they say "god the father, god the son & god the holy spirit". Hence they say god is just one but manifested himself in three different forms.

Hindu's believe that the creator of universe & life is one, they call him "Eeshwar" .

Off course neither Christians nor Hindus are called Muslims because Christians commit shirk by mentioning triune nature of god while hindus commit shirk by worshipping the "Autaar" of that eeshwar. 

Edited by Spiritual

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13 minutes ago, Spiritual said:

If you see the Christian or Hindu doctrine, you can know their concept of oneness of god.

Christians advocates the triune nature of one god & as they say "god the father, god the son & god the holy spirit". Hence they say god is just one but manifested himself in three different forms.

Hindu's believe that the creator of universe & life is one, they call him "Eeshwar" .

'' Ishvara (meaning eshwar) is one or more deities of an individual's preference from Hinduism's polytheistic canon of deities. ''

I don't really care about the hinduism or the buddhists, it's pretty much obvious what they are and what they believe in.

However, about christianity, the main Difference and Huge problem we have between Islam and Christianity is that they associate a partner with God(azwj), a son... Despite numerous other types of Shirk they have, like saints for example, they started worshiping saints instead of Jesus which is far more worse.

Study the bible a bit and see for yourself.

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2 minutes ago, yasahebalzaman.313 said:

However, about christianity, the main Difference and Huge problem we have between Islam and Christianity is that they associate a partner with God(azwj), a son... Despite numerous other types of Shirk they have, like saints for example, they started worshiping saints instead of Jesus which is far more worse.

Study the bible a bit and see for yourself.

"Ishwara, it has been derived from the Sanskrit root ish, which means to rule. So Ishwara means the supreme being who rules over everyone and everything. But as God is only such being, He is also known as Ishwara."

I had several debates with Christians to understand as to why they assert triune. I have tried to ask them explanation of Chapter John verse 1-3 which says:

"The beginning was a word. And the word was with god. And the word was god". How can "word" becomes the beginning while it is with another thing mentioned as "god"? The beginning is definitely god & Quran says it as "Huwal Awwal". Anyway. my comment was the response to brother Iraqis Shia, he has also included salafi's in his list who have a different understanding of Touheed although they are maintaining the oneness & does not associate others with Him. Their reasons & logic are different.

And in all these three places, humans have contaminated the concept of Touheed by means of their own invented reasons & logic.

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Our intellect can not comprehend god, but his existence can still be simply rationalised. If our finite existence was caused by indefinite amount of finite causes, than it wouldn't be possible due to each cause needed a cause resulting in infinite regression. One must conclude that our existence would not be possible if that was such the case, but since our existence does exist, than logically speaking there has to be a cause that was not dependant on a cause. There has to be a first cause (god) that is infinite and independent of everything. Direct understanding of God is not possible for a finite being, but what I have spoken on does not rely on direct understanding, but rather provides a rational and logical explanation of an infinite being needing to exist.

Edited by Sayed Hassan Y.

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@Spiritual Non-Muslim people worship the Creation instead of the Creator, we all know that God forgives anything, any sin except Polytheism, because it is Unjust. It is only the individual who says the Shahaada whom we can consider that he believes in One God Almighty.

If you sit and debate people about their religion other that muslims, you will notice that they lack logic and reason in their discussion and arguments.

Christians don't know what to believe in, in their scriptures they say that they believe in one god and on the other hand they say they believe in saints and the son of God, that god made himself a human being to save them, the Idea that destroyed Humanity. They tell you, you can come here observe have fun go to the church on sunday and in the end you will die and return to your original home which is heaven. It's a fairy tale. You want to go back to their books? sure we can debate through their books but the problem is that they themselves don't know their bible and their rules. I know because i used to be a christian catholic and im still living in a christian household and practicing shiism in secret.

The Salafis are a lost case i dont even waste my time reading about them.

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2 minutes ago, Sayed Hassan Y. said:

Our intellect can not comprehend god, but his existence can still be simply rationalised.

Ok, try your best to rationalize the existence of Allah. Kindly do not mention what has been mentioned by Allah, by Prophets & by the Aimma e Tahireen. You cannot even rationalize the name "Allah".

5 minutes ago, Sayed Hassan Y. said:

If our finite existence was caused by indefinite amount of finite causes, than it wouldn't be possible due to each cause needed a cause resulting in infinite regression.

No need to prove me the existence of Allah, I believe that He is Al-Haye & Al-Qayyum, the Lord of Muhammad & Ali (peace be upon them).

 

8 minutes ago, Sayed Hassan Y. said:

One must conclude that our existence would not be possible if that was such the case, but since our existence does exist, than logically speaking there has to be a cause that was not dependant on a cause

This is the end limit of our intellect, there has to be a cause, there must be something. These types of conclusion are based on our observations & we are basically try to extrapolate here. Why only some thing? why not some things? and so on.

 

11 minutes ago, Sayed Hassan Y. said:

There has to be a first cause (god) that is infinite and independent of everything. Direct understanding of God is not possible for a finite being, but what I have spoken on does not rely on direct understanding, but rather provides a rational and logical explanation of an infinite being. 

Atheist says that "What caused the god?"  if there is a first cause what is that first? and more important what make you sure that your conclusion is correct? You need the technical backup on this matter, I guess :)

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6 minutes ago, yasahebalzaman.313 said:

Non-Muslim people worship the Creation instead of the Creator

Absolutely correct.

But we need to look what makes them worship creation? Their absurd reasoning skills, their confused minds, their logical fallacies. This is what we are debating on. Thanks for posting here this valued comment.

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22 minutes ago, Spiritual said:

what makes them worship creation

They are blinded by this world and deceived by it, deluded by many tools used by the devil. Whomever wants God, God will respond to him, He will not leave him alone. But they don't want God they want this world, its temptations and desires, so they indulge more and more in corruption until they are lost forever. The love of this world isn't easy i cant tell you that.

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1 minute ago, yasahebalzaman.313 said:

They are blinded by this world and deceived by it, deluded by many tools used by the devil. Whomever wants God, God will respond to him, He will not leave him alone. But they don't want God they want this world, its temptations and desires, so they indulge more and more in corruption until they are lost forever. The love of this world isn't easy i cant tell you that.

I think along with the reasons you mentioned, they also got confused with the miracles Jesus showed to them. I see some Shia also exceed the limits & start calling Imam Ali (a.s) as Allah. Both of these two types are unable to produce anything from Allah, but always present their own invented absurd logic & reasons to justify that they are on the right path.

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6 hours ago, Spiritual said:

LOL,

Now this statement is also advocating my point.

Salafi belief on touheed, Christians believe in trinity nature of touheed, hindu believe in touheed. What makes our touheed rational? Our reasons & our logic? Or the arguments and reasons of choosen ones posseses divine knowledge.

By rational I mean is not contradictory. Eg salafi tauheed says God is one, but in parts. We say God is one, without parts. If something is in parts how is it one? 

Imam Al Sadiq AS said about  : 

“.....The man asking questions then said, ‘Whatever we can think of is but a creature.’ The Imam then said, ‘Had it been as you said we would not have had any responsibility to believe in the Oneness of the Creator; we would not have any responsibility toward something of whose existence we cannot even think.  In fact, whatever is thought of and our senses comprehend with clear limits and similarities such thing is a creature. However, complete negation is total nullification and nothingness. ....."

Pointing out that our mind is an important and necessary part of faith. In the debate with an atheist who puts forwards a similar line of argument to yourself, that the rational mind is either not able or relevant :

“The man asking questions then said, ‘You have already defined and limited Him in your proving His existence.’ The Imam, recipient of divine supreme covenant, then said, ‘I did not limit Him. I only presented proofs of His existence; between proving and disproving no third alternative exists.’ “The man asking questions then said, ‘Can His existence be proved through reasoning from the effect to the cause or the cause to the effect?’ “The Imam said, ‘Yes, there is nothing whose existence can be proved without adopting either of the two above processes of reasoning.’ 

 

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Ahh, you means any statement which includes reason & logic (rationality) and which satisfies the intellect should be understood as truth. So we should start accepting every scientific theory based on these principles even if it deny the existence of creator. Or we should test every statement and those who have said " we have heard & we obey" were wrong?

As you said, theories are theories and not necessarily true. If they are proved necessarily true, then they are true. 

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Please notice, what people asked from prophets? Logic or Reason? Or they asked to display the divine knowledge & power? 

ـ الإمامُ الكاظمُ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ) ـ لَمّا سُئلَ عَن أدنَى المَعرِفةِ ـ: الإقرارُ بأ نَّهُ لا إلهَ غَيرُهُ ، ولا شِبهَ لَهُ ولا نَظيرَ وأ نَّهُ قَديمٌ ، مُثبَتٌ ، مَوجودٌ ، غَيرُ فَقيدٍ ، وأ نَّهُ لَيسَ كَمِثلِه شَيءٌ . 

Imam al-Kazim (AS), when he was asked about the lowest degree of inner knowledge, replied, ‘It is to affirm that there is no god but He, and that He has no likeness or match, and that He is eternal, positively proven to exist, present and not absent, and that there is nothing like Him.’[al-Kafi, v. 1, p. 86, no. 1]

Not sure why you are trying to quote the Aimma AS, as they are against you. There are volumes of work expanding on logic, reason, cause and effect etc. 

The Prophets AS never just brought a miracle and said "believe", they were taught the religion, to enjoin the good and reject the bad etc. Allah says miracles alone are not tools to make people believe , you cant scare someone or fool someone into accepting something, remember there is no compulsion in faith :

15|14|Even if We opened for them a gateway into the sky, and they began to ascend through it.
15|15|They would still say, “Our eyes are hallucinating; in fact, we are people bewitched.”

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Spiritual said:

ـ الإمامِ زينِ العابدينَ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ) ـ في الدّعاءِ ـ: بِكَ عَرَفتُكَ و أنتَ دَلَلتَني عَلَيكَ و دَعَوتَني إلَيكَ ، و لَولا أنتَ لَم أدرِ ما أنتَ. 

 

Imam Zayn al-Abidin (AS) said in one of his supplications, ‘I have attained knowledge of You through You, and You are the One Who indicated me to Yourself and called me to Yourself, and were it not for You, I would not know who You are.’[Iqbal al-A`amal, v. 1, p. 157]

Yes, all very rational and reasonable arguments. Thank you.

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6 hours ago, Spiritual said:

ـ الإمامُ الرِّضا (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ) ـ في صِفَةِ اللّه‏ِ سُبحانَهُ ـ: هُوَ أجَلُّ مِن أن يُدرِكَهُ بَصَرٌ ، أو يُحيطَ بِه وَهمٌ ، أو يَضبِطَهُ عَقلٌ. 

 

Imam al-Rida (AS) said in his description of Allah, Glory be to Him, ‘He is too exalted for sight to be able to perceive Him, for imagination to be able to fathom Him, and for the intellect to be able to grasp Him.’[al-Tawhid, p. 252, no. 3]

 

ـ الإمام زينُ العابدينَ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ) ـ في الدّعاءِ ـ: عَجَزَتِ العُقولُ عَن إدراكِ كُنهِ جَمالِكَ ، وانحَسَرَتِ الأبصارُ دونَ‏النَّظَرِ إلى سُبُحاتِ وَجهِكَ، ولَم تَجعَلْ لِلخَلقِ طَريقا إلى مَعرِفَتِكَ إلّا بِالعَجزِ عَن مَعرِفَتِكَ . 

 

Imam Zayn al-Abidin (AS) said in one of his supplications, ‘The intellects are incapable of fathoming the essence of Your Beauty, the sights are restricted to looking at other than the splendour of Your Countenance, and You have not set aside any means for Your creation to get to know You except through their complete incapacity of knowing You.’[Bihar al-Anwar, v. 94, p. 150, no. 21]

 

ـ الإمامُ عليٌ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ): فلَسنا نَعلَمُ كُنهَ عَظَمَتِكَ، إلّا أنّا نَعلَمُ أنَّكَ حَيٌّ قَيّومٌ ، لا تَأخُذُكَ سِنَةٌ ولا نَومٌ ، لَم يَنتَهِ إلَيكَ نَظَرٌ ، ولَم يُدرِكْكَ بَصَرٌ . 

 

Imam Ali (AS) said, ‘We do not know the essence of Your greatness. All that we do know is that You are Ever-Living and Self-Subsisting through Whom all things subsist. Drowsiness and sleep do not overtake You, vision does not reach You and sight cannot perceive You.’[Nahj al-Balagha, Sermon 160]

 

ـ رسولُ اللهِ‏ِ (صَلَّيَ اللهُ عَلَيهِ وَ آلِهِ): تَفَكَّروا في خَلقِ اللّه‏ِ ، ولا تَفَكَّروا في اللّه‏ِ فتَهلِكوا. 

 

The Prophet (SAWA) said, ‘Ponder about the creation of Allah, but do not ponder about Allah Himself lest you be ruined.’[Kanz al-`Ummal, no. 5705]

 

ـ الإمامُ الصّادقُ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ): إيّاكُم والتَّفَكُّرَ في اللّه‏ِ؛ فإنَّ التَّفَكُّرَ في اللّه‏ِ لا يَزيدُ إلّا تِيهاً ، إنَّ اللّه‏َ عَزَّوجلَّ لا تُدرِكُهُ الأبصارُ ولا يُوصَفُ بِمِقدارٍ. 

 

Imam al-Sadiq (AS) said, ‘Beware of pondering about Allah, for verily pondering about Allah only increases one’s bewilderment. Verily Allah, Mighty and Exalted, cannot be perceived by the sights or described by any type of criteria.’[Amali al-Saduq, p. 340, no. 3]

 

The classic straw man. Why are you doing this? Are you trying to score points or get a clap from the crowd? 

I will not bother replying if you try and side track the debate again.

 

No one is claiming to be able to limit Allah by the mind, so you can forget that particular avenue of distraction.

The issue here is should we be rational in religion or irrational. Im saying rational. To be rational would mean we can not limit an infinite with a finite mind. However we can acknowledge His existence with our limited mind.

Perfect reasonable and rationally concept. You appear to be denying this, am I correct?

 

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1 hour ago, Spiritual said:

Ok, try your best to rationalize the existence of Allah. Kindly do not mention what has been mentioned by Allah, by Prophets & by the Aimma e Tahireen. You cannot even rationalize the name "Allah".

I already given the words of Imams AS proving the point, more can be read on the topic here, https://www.medinaminds.com/classic-debate-existence-god-via-fruit/

There are loads of information about this, I suggest the tuheed chapter in al kafi as a start. 

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No need to prove me the existence of Allah, I believe that He is Al-Haye & Al-Qayyum, the Lord of Muhammad & Ali (peace be upon them).

Excellent, but how do you explain the fact the Imams AS would make it a high priority to respond to athiests who would use reason to debate them. Then the Imams AS would use reason to prove the existence of God. Why did they not just say "believe in God, he is Al Haya etc"

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This is the end limit of our intellect, there has to be a cause, there must be something. These types of conclusion are based on our observations & we are basically try to extrapolate here. Why only some thing? why not some things? and so on.

Atheist says that "What caused the god?"  if there is a first cause what is that first? and more important what make you sure that your conclusion is correct? You need the technical backup on this matter, I guess :)

Im glad you have said this. As it just proves what I have thought all along. You have no clue about our arguments about the existence of God. Based on that ignorance you have rejected the notion of reason and rational thought as it did not yield the results you hoped for. The error is you did not apply it properly, just like in maths, if you get the wrong answer, you dont ditch the whole of mathematics, you learn how to apply maths properly then try again.

Im willing to pay for you to read our books on this matter, I will either pay for the book or give you the money via paypal, on the condition that you write a short summary of the arguments you have learned from the book on here. Please PM me to arrange.

 

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12 minutes ago, iraqi_shia said:

By rational I mean is not contradictory. Eg salafi tauheed says God is one, but in parts. We say God is one, without parts. If something is in parts how is it one? 

Imam Al Sadiq AS said about  : 

“.....The man asking questions then said, ‘Whatever we can think of is but a creature.’ The Imam then said, ‘Had it been as you said we would not have had any responsibility to believe in the Oneness of the Creator; we would not have any responsibility toward something of whose existence we cannot even think.  In fact, whatever is thought of and our senses comprehend with clear limits and similarities such thing is a creature. However, complete negation is total nullification and nothingness. ....."

Pointing out that our mind is an important and necessary part of faith. In the debate with an atheist who puts forwards a similar line of argument to yourself, that the rational mind is either not able or relevant :

“The man asking questions then said, ‘You have already defined and limited Him in your proving His existence.’ The Imam, recipient of divine supreme covenant, then said, ‘I did not limit Him. I only presented proofs of His existence; between proving and disproving no third alternative exists.’ “The man asking questions then said, ‘Can His existence be proved through reasoning from the effect to the cause or the cause to the effect?’ “The Imam said, ‘Yes, there is nothing whose existence can be proved without adopting either of the two above processes of reasoning

I think it is the time to quote you again what is my opinion, so that the matter gets clear to you:

On ‎11‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 11:07 AM, Spiritual said:

What I think, is that it is neither rational nor it is emotional, rather it is the matter of simple submission. Our intellect is limited & cannot grasp/comprehend the zaat of Allah, the maximum reach of our intellect, after observing these state of the art systems like universe & life, is to conclude that "there is something or things" who has created all these things. We can also conclude that "That Something or some things" is/are supreme in knowledge and power. This is the fact that we (and our intellect as well) are "Mohtaj" of guidance, without guidance, we cannot get to the truth (Al-Haq).

 

On ‎11‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 11:07 AM, Spiritual said:

You may think that I am giving reasons here hence proving that believing in unseen is rational, no that is not the fact, all of these reasons are not mine. These are the guidance which we have been told by the Creator or His chosen ones. The taught us which we don't knew therefore all these arguments are divine and challenge our intellect hence this is pure submission.

 

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7 minutes ago, Spiritual said:

I think along with the reasons you mentioned, they also got confused with the miracles Jesus showed to them. I see some Shia also exceed the limits & start calling Imam Ali (a.s) as Allah. Both of these two types are unable to produce anything from Allah, but always present their own invented absurd logic & reasons to justify that they are on the right path.

Moses did much greater miracles than Jesus, that's not a reason to worship him, the holy prophet split the moon in half just like that. Imam ali did more than 6,000 miracles from minor to bigger ones.

It's just that the people who decided to manipulate christianity saw it as an advantage that Jesus doesn't have a biological father. This is a big topic.

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