Rasul

Challenge To Debate Sheikh Asrar Rashid Accepted.

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55 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

No, Ammar Nakshawani did an "Ali (as)" as in not replying to a fool and his foolish debate @DigitalUmmah

He shouldnt have done the majalis in the first place if he couldnt back it up. Its the laws of any debate that any claim can be questioned, and the bakri know it

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I would not waste my time debating with people who have no real intention of knowing the truth! His facebook post was VERY aggressive and he wanted to have a public spectacle and the comments were even worse, calling us shias all sorts of names, from this it is clear to me his only intention is to create a public scene, not to learn the truth. I am for debating someone who wants to know the truth and is genuine about engaging in intellectual discussion, unfortunately this dude seems to be a salafi at heart, even though he claims to hate them.

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Btw, do you know who took his lecture on radical Islam off YouTube?? Was it Sayed himself? I learnt quite a bit from it and I can't care if it offended some butthurt sunnis, we're not here to appease them at the expense of learning more about Shiism.

Edited by Mohamed1993
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25 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

He shouldnt have done the majalis in the first place if he couldnt back it up. Its the laws of any debate that any claim can be questioned, and the bakri know it

Giving a majalis does not automatically equate to giving a debate challenge, unless it's explicitly declared. Did he do that?

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11 minutes ago, Mohamed1993 said:

Btw, do you know who took his lecture on radical Islam off YouTube?? Was it Sayed himself? I learnt quite a bit from it and I can't care if it offended some butthurt sunnis, we're not here to appease them at the expense of learning more about Shiism.

It's most likely been taken down by MKSI Leicester --- the channel who put it up --- after the uproar it caused. Or maybe it was flagged down. Re-uploads of the video were taken down due to copyright, but there is one still available: 

 

 

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Has anyone done any fact checking on his Radical Islam majlis or is everyone assuming everything to be true that he said?

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This guy is a brelvi, there is a page on fb refuting him.

Should be an interesting debate.

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2 minutes ago, Ali_Hussain said:

This guy is a brelvi, there is a page on fb refuting him.

Who are you talking about?

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1 hour ago, Mohamed1993 said:

Btw, do you know who took his lecture on radical Islam off YouTube??

It was on Safeer TV yesterday, I think.

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1 hour ago, magma said:

Giving a majalis does not automatically equate to giving a debate challenge, unless it's explicitly declared. Did he do that?

he didnt need to - did you not hear the content of his majalis? do you not think something as incendiary as that is going to illicit a response?

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1 hour ago, DigitalUmmah said:

He shouldnt have done the majalis in the first place if he couldnt back it up. Its the laws of any debate that any claim can be questioned, and the bakri know it

As I understand it, a majalis isn't supposed to be a platform for debate, and I too don't care if a Salafi/Barlevi/Wahhabi/Sunni  gets upset and blows a gasket, this is what happens when they  keep turtling around and put putting their heads in the sand about Radical Islam , this is what they get. People like Ammar doing speeches to the youth on Radical Islam instead. Incendiary my heel, they are just afraid of Shias, DU.  

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar
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47 minutes ago, magma said:

Giving a majalis does not automatically equate to giving a debate challenge, unless it's explicitly declared. Did he do that?

The first 11 seconds: 

Although I think that was said for rhetorical purposes. I don't think he expected all these invitations to debate when he said that.

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5 minutes ago, Vestige said:

Although I think that was said for rhetorical purposes. I don't think he expected all these invitations to debate when he said that.

how bad does it look that he issued such a majalis and then did not back it up

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A formal, structured one-on-one debate requires a formal invitation and mutual agreement on terms. Otherwise it's just open airways on all sides.

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Just now, magma said:

A formal, structured one-on-one debate requires a formal invitation and mutual agreement on terms. Otherwise it's just open airways on all sides.

er.....

 

 

1 hour ago, magma said:

Giving a majalis does not automatically equate to giving a debate challenge, unless it's explicitly declared. Did he do that?

 

11 minutes ago, Vestige said:

The first 11 seconds: 

@magma are you actually serving any function in this thread?

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^ Those 11 seconds of the video is a general rhetorical statement on his part, because he didn't address anyone specifically by name to challenge. My second statement was a general statement, not referring to him specifically.

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Just now, magma said:

^ Those 11 seconds of the video is a general rhetorical statement on his part, because he didn't address anyone specifically by name to challenge. My second statement was a general statement, not referring to him specifically.

nevertheless, he can hardly be suprised to be challenged by bakris if he calls the caliphate of abu bakr the birthplace of islamic terrorism. and him refusing to respond looks terrible for our camp.

I watched that bakris response video. its a joke. but its the final word right now, and that counts for a lot in these matters.

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Firstly, with all due respect to Ammar, why does he talk about this stuff if he's not going to back it up when challenged by someone from the opposing faction? It makes us Shi'as look like a laughing stock.

It also seems that most Shi'a clerics in the west are too busy nowadays on the unity brigade rather than actually stepping up to defend our faith when needed.

Where were the representatives of Agha Khamenei or Agha Sistani when all this was going on for the past couple weeks? Need I say more...

Luckily enough we do have some gems within the community who are able to engage in such polemics. Whatever people may think of Sh. Hassan Allahyari or Al-Habib, the fact of the matter is that they defend our faith and beliefs against nawasib left, right & centre when it matters.

Anyways, I hope the debate does go ahead and that it is an enlightening sincere & academic discussion where the masses can also benefit from InshaAllah.

For those who don't know, Asrar Rashid is a well known debater in the 'Sunni' circles here in the UK. He recently debated the Salafi scholar, Ustadh Abdurrahman hassan (Teacher of 'dawah man' Imran bin Mansur) on the issue of Mawlid which is also up on YouTube.

Edited by Al-Hussayni
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Let's be realistic here, Nakshawani would get destroyed in a debate with any knowledgeable Sunni. Playing to the gallery in a Shia centre with cheap polemics is a million miles away from a formal debate with someone who knows what they are talking about.

I understand that people enjoy Nakshawani's lectures, and that's fine, as long as they realise it's just entertainment. This idea that he is some kind of fountain of knowledge is pure delusion. Contrary to what he loves to claim at the beginning of his lectures, his arguments are not 'academic', and for him to have any chance in a debate he would need to significantly backtrack or tone down many of the arguments he has made, because they just don't stand up to scrutiny.

As it is however, Nakshawani has little experience of formal debates, so he is wise to avoid them. Unfortunately, any debate between Muslims is unlikely to go well anyway, because after a certain point it always seems to descend into a shouting match (usually when one side realises they are losing).

I think some people here don't really understand how debates work. Who wins in a debate often has little to do with who has the stronger position (although it obviously helps, all else being equal). It's much more about the ability of the debater to make best use of the arguments he has, and to highlight the flaws in the opposing arguments. A skilled and experienced debater should usually win a debate with an unskilled debater no matter which position they take. I fear that too many people have read 'Then I was guided', 'Peshawar nights', or some such book, and imagine that armed with that knowledge they could take down any Sunni scholar themselves, so any debate with a Shia scholar must necessarily be a massacre. This is just incredibly naive.

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21 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

nevertheless, he can hardly be suprised to be challenged by bakris if he calls the caliphate of abu bakr the birthplace of islamic terrorism. and him refusing to respond looks terrible for our camp.

I watched that bakris response video. its a joke. but its the final word right now, and that counts for a lot in these matters.

                  :bismillah:  

                  :salam: 

Can you please give a generalisation of what he said? Thank you.

Salam.

 

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48 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

I think some people here don't really understand how debates work. Who wins in a debate often has little to do with who has the stronger position (although it obviously helps, all else being equal). It's much more about the ability of the debater to make best use of the arguments he has, and to highlight the flaws in the opposing arguments. A skilled and experienced debater should usually win a debate with an unskilled debater no matter which position they take. I fear that too many people have read 'Then I was guided', 'Peshawar nights', or some such book, and imagine that armed with that knowledge they could take down any Sunni scholar themselves, so any debate with a Shia scholar must necessarily be a massacre. This is just incredibly naive.

Other factors that influence a debate include the topic of discussion (whether it's specific or broad in scope), whatever pre-arranged rules are followed (which is really another debate in itself), and the level of knowledge of the audience (which usually is less than the debaters). So there's plenty of variables. 

This got me thinking though. By your definition, most politicians would be classified as poor debaters. Most political "debates" done today are really joint campaign appearances, where the participants give monologues with a pre-determined script that plays to their base, but everyone agrees to do it together with minimal and lazy engagement. Which is pointless, because the presence of others doesn't even seem necessary, since they would be doing the same thing if they spoke alone. 

So why can't Muslims do that? Call it a joint appearance, or a dialogue, or a discussion, or whatever. Let everyone just state their claims, and let it all hang out for others to do what they will with it. There doesn't need to be winners. Keep the scoring algorithm and goal posts for a football match only. 

Maybe?

Edited by magma

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If you look at this dude's Facebook page: there was a Shia person who commented saying its been 3 days and he has not responded to his request to debate Sheikh Hassan Allahyari, who was ready to debate him and the reply was some stupid response about the logistics of the debate being made clear and that they will be announced on his Facebook page and it has to be a public debate and the request has to be made directly, not through middlemen or whatever. To me this seems like a person who is just doing it for publicity without any real intent to debate and he's inviting a crowd so they can hurl insults at us without any real intent of proving their point. Also, I really don't understand some of us who feel offended because a Sunni has had the last word, who gives a damn what they think? Are we that insecure that we care that Sunnis whose debate requests sound like 5 year old tantrums are asking to debate and we aren't responding? You do realise they aren't willing to accept the truth, they will just look for excuses to deny and quote their many fabricated stories by Abu Huraira and whoever else they claim to be a "Sahaba".

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Also, if you notice he takes down every Shias insult down in his comments section, but Sunnis say horrible things about us and he leaves their comments there, he clearly has a bias. He talks about Shias hitting themselves but has nothing whatsoever to say about the Sunni terrorists in Syria/Iraq/Libya etc. Look, its pointless to debate a person who is never going to listen to you and is just there to slander you. If I was a scholar, I would not debate someone not worth debating.

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this reminds me of what Ayatollah Aqeel al-Gharavi said not too long ago that it is time for mubahila (evocation) and not mubahisa (debate) because we are way past on arguing over whose on the right and who isn't." 

 

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