Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Assalamu alaykum folks, 

A little about me: I was born and raised as a hindu in a nuclear family. I was then introduced to christianity and I did follow christianity for few years and then later i had few doubts about how christianity and islam are related to one another. My two sunni friends(may Allah bless them)  got my questions cleared and thats when i started researching more about islam. I used to watch a lot of dr zakir naik's lectures and it did inspire me a lot about islam. 

Later I came to know that there are sects in islam and i thought of researching abt that too. I read Then i was guided book and yes i was convinced with what shias are and who are they. But i still have few questions about shia school of thought that i need to get ir clarified.  And i hope to get it clarified in this forum. Please help me with this. May Allah bless u all. 

Kindly respond to this and i shall start questioning. 

Jazakallahu khair. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Rabbe zidni ilma said:

Assalamu alaykum folks, 

A little about me: I was born and raised as a hindu in a nuclear family. I was then introduced to christianity and I did follow christianity for few years and then later i had few doubts about how christianity and islam are related to one another. My two sunni friends(may Allah bless them)  got my questions cleared and thats when i started researching more about islam. I used to watch a lot of dr zakir naik's lectures and it did inspire me a lot about islam. 

Later I came to know that there are sects in islam and i thought of researching abt that too. I read Then i was guided book and yes i was convinced with what shias are and who are they. But i still have few questions about shia school of thought that i need to get ir clarified.  And i hope to get it clarified in this forum. Please help me with this. May Allah bless u all. 

Kindly respond to this and i shall start questioning. 

Jazakallahu khair. 

You can visit the sites such as: www.al-islam.org; www.islamportal.net for further reading on Shia Islam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Salati AbdulQadir said:

I came to know that there are sects in islam and i thought of researching abt that too. I read Then i was guided book and yes i was convinced with what shias are and who

In Arabic, the term “Shi’ah” originally means one, two or a group of followers. In the Glorious Qur'an, this term is used several times in this sense. For example, in the verse (28:15) God speaks of one of the followers of Moses as one of his Shi’a. Elsewhere, Abraham is introduced as a Shi’a of Noah (37:83).

In the beginning of the history of Islam, the term “Shi’a” was used in its original or literal sense for followers of different people. For example, some hadiths speak of the Shi’a of Ali b. Abi Talib and others of the Shi’a of Mu'awiyah b. Abi Sufyan. However, gradually the term acquired a secondary or technical meaning, i.e. the followers of Ali, those who believed in his Imamate (divine leadership).

Shahrestani (d. 548 A.H) in his Al-Milal wa al-Nihal, an outstanding source about different sects in Islam, writes, " Shi’a are those who followed Ali in particular and believed in his Imamate and caliphate according to the explicit teachings and will of the Prophet Muhammad."1

This is a very accurate definition, since the Shi’a themselves believe that the reason for following Ali is that it was required by the Prophet and it was not their personal decision to choose whom to follow, unlike the non- Shi’a who, after the death of the Prophet Muhammad, followed the one who was chosen at Saqifah and believed that the Prophet had left it to the people themselves to decide whom to follow.

Of course, Abu Bakr b. Abi Quhafah, the first Caliph, who himself was chosen in this way, believed that he must appoint his successor. And the second Caliph, ‘Umar b. Khattab, in turn appointed a council of six people to choose one amongst themselves according to a very strict procedure set up by him. It is interesting to note that it was Ali, the fourth Caliph, who was chosen and indeed forced by nearly all Muslims after the murder of the third Caliph, 'Uthman b. 'Affan, to undertake the position of caliphate.

In his Firaq al-Shi'ah, al-Hasan b. Musa al-Nawbakhti (d. 313 A.H), a well-known Shi’a scholar, writes, “the Shi’a are the party of Ali b. Abi Talib. They were called ' Shi’a' of Ali during and after the life of the Prophet and are known as the followers of Ali and believers in his Imamate”.2

Shaykh al-Mufid (d. 413 A.H), one of the most outstanding early Shi’a scholars, defines the Shi’a as being those who follow Ali and believe in his immediate successorship to the Prophet. 3 Explaining why Shi’a are also called “Imamiyah”, he says: “This is a title for those who believe in the necessity of Imamate and its continuit y in all ages, and that every Imam must be explicitly designated, and must also be infallible and perfect.”4

Thus, it can be said that Shi’a Muslims are those who have the following beliefs about the successorship to the Prophet Muhammad:

a. Successorship to the Prophet is a Divine position.

b. As the Prophet was chosen by God, his successor or Imam also must be chosen by God and then made known by the Prophet.

c. The immediate successor to the Prophet Muhammad was Ali.
When did Shi'ism start?
Naturally the question arises as to when Shi’ism started. There are many hadiths narrated by both Shi’a and non- Shi’a regarding the issue of Imamate that will be studied later when discussing Shi’i doctrines. In what follows, however, we will just study some hadiths in which the Prophet Muhammad spoke of a group of people as “Shi’a” (followers) of Ali and then refer to some extra reasons from hadiths and the history of Islam that can shed more light on the subject at hand.

All hadiths mentioned below are cited from respected Sunni sources. These are, however, a few of the most important narrations, and there are many more to be found in the sources mentioned here as well as others.

(1) Ibn 'Asakir (d. 571 A.H.) narrated from Jabir b. 'Abdullah al-Ansari that he said:

Once we were with the Prophet Muhammad, when Ali arrived, upon which the Prophet said, 'I swear by Him who has my life in His hand that surely this man and his Shi’a will be happy on the Day of Resurrection and then the verse “Surely those who believe and do good deeds are the best of men” (98:7) was revealed. Later, whenever the companions of the Prophet Muhammad saw Ali coming, they would say, “The best of men has come”.5

(2) Ibn Hajar (d. 974) narrated from Ibn Abbas that when the verse (98:7) was revealed the Prophet told Ali: “Those are you and your Shi’a. You and your Shi’a will come on the day of Resurrection while you will be pleased and well pleasing (to God) and your enemies will come while they will be angry and seized by their necks”. (Ibn Hajar, Section 11, Chapter 1, the Verse 11)6

(3) Ibn al-Athir (d. 606) narrated that, addressing Ali, the Prophet said:

"O Ali! You and your Shi'a will reach God being pleased with Him and well pleasing Him, and your enemies will reach Him, being angry and will be seized by their necks". Then the Prophet demonstrated how this would be by putting his hand on his neck. (Ibn al-Athir, Al-Nihayah, the entry "qa-ma-ha")

There are other hadiths in which the Prophet Muhammad, addressing Ali, used the expression "our Shi’a". This is in line with what was asserted above that the Shi’a are those who follow Ali, in accordance with the teachings of the Prophet and not because of their own personal decision. For example, Ibn 'Asakir narrated that the Prophet said:

"Surely there is a spring in Paradise sweeter than nectar, smoother than butter, cooler than ice, and smells better than musk. In that spring is the clay (tinah) from which we (my household and me) were created and our Shi’a are made from the same clay."7

There are yet other hadiths in which the Prophet, addressing Ali, used the expression " Shi’a of your descendants". This confirms what was suggested above, that the Shi’a are those who follow Ali because they believe in the institution of Imamate. As we will see in detail later, the Shi’a believe that Ali was the first Imam and after him the institution of Imamate continued in those offspring of Ali and Fatimah that were chosen by God and introduced by the Prophet.

For example, Zamakhshari (d. 528 A.H.) in his Rabi’ al-Abrar reports that the Prophet said: "O Ali! When the Day of Resurrection comes I will hold on to God, you will hold on to me, your descendants will hold on to you and their Shi'a will hold on to them. Then you will see where we will be taken."8

It has to be noted that according to the Qur'an, prophethood was also inherited. The Qur'an says:

"And surely we have sent Noah and Abraham, and we put prophethood and the Book in their offspring". (57:26)

This means that those who were qualified to be chosen as prophets by God were included in their offspring.

In addition to the above-mentioned hadiths and their like, and those hadiths on Imamate that will be mentioned later, there are many other reasons that make the appearance of a group of people such as the Shi’a in the lifetime of the Prophet a very natural and even necessary phenomenon.

For example, at the beginning of Islam when the Prophet was asked by God to start his public invitation to Islam by inviting his close relatives, he invited his relatives to a meal. After the meal the Prophet expressed his mission and invited the guests to Islam and said that whoever believed in Islam among them and assisted him would be his successor. All kept silent. The only one who accepted the invitation to assist him was Ali, a teenager at that time.

The Prophet asked him to sit and repeated his invitation for the second and the third time. Again and again it was just Ali who expressed his readiness to support the Prophet. The Prophet accepted Ali’s submission to the will of God and carried out Allah's command to designate him as his successor. This event is documented in many sources.9

In a very important statement, the Prophet clearly affirmed that Ali was truthful and free of false beliefs and wrong acts, be it in his personal conduct or in his speech and judgements, and implicitly asked Muslims to follow him. Umm Salamah reported that the Prophet said: "Ali is always with the truth (al-haqq) and the Qur'an and the truth are always with him, and until the Day of Resurrection they will never separate from each other".

This particular hadith is narrated by Ibn 'Abbas, Abu Bakr, 'A'ishah, Abu Sa'id al-Khuddari, Abu Layla, and Abu Ayyub al-Ansari as well.10 The Prophet is also quoted as saying, "May God bless Ali. My Lord, make the truth always be with him".11

The Prophet also asserted on several occasions that Ali was the most knowledgeable among his men in matters pertaining to Islamic sciences. For example, the Prophet said: "Wisdom is divided into ten parts: nine parts are given to Ali and one part is distributed among the rest of the people".12 Later the second Caliph reaffirmed the sayings of the Prophet by saying, "May God never afflict me with a difficult task where Ali is not present".13

One also has to take into account the valuable and vital services and sacrifices of Ali, in order to be able to realise his position among Muslims. For example, when the infidels of Mecca planned to kill the Prophet and God informed him of their plot, the Prophet asked Ali whether he would be willing to sleep in his place so that the pagans would think that he is still at home, allowing him to safely leave Mecca. Ali accepted this task, on the occasion of which the verse was revealed,
“And among people are those who sell their souls to acquire Divine pleasure”.

The emigration of the Prophet from Mecca to Medina marks the beginning of the Islamic Calendar. Ali served the cause of Islam by fighting in the Battles of Badr, Uhud, Khaybar, Khandaq and Hunayn, in which he played crucial roles. These are all registered in numerous historical works and collections of hadiths by non- Shi’a scholars.

As was mentioned earlier, the Prophetic hadiths on the issue of the Imamate in general, and about Ali in particular, will be studied later. However, I would like to conclude the discussion here by referring to the well- known hadith of Ghadir Khumm. Returning from his last pilgrimage to Mecca, the Prophet asked thousands of Muslims accompanying him to stop on the way.

He stood on a platform or pulpit made for him out of saddles and said, "Whoever has adopted me as his master (mawla), Ali now is his master". Then the people present there, including the first and second Caliphs to be paid allegiance to Ali and congratulated him. This hadith is transmitted by more than one hundred sources.
For a comprehensive list of non- Shi’a sources of this hadith, see 'Abaqat al-Anwar by Mir Hamid Husayn al-Hindi (d. 1306 A.H.) and Al-Ghadir by 'Abd al-Husayn al-Amini (d. 1390 A.H.). Having affirmed the veracity of the hadith, some Sunni writers have interpreted the term mawl‚ used in this hadith in another way.

According to them, the term mawla here is used in the sense of friendship. Whether this can be accepted or not, there is no doubt that this tradition and the event gave Ali a unique and central position among the Companions of the Prophet.

Thus, it seems that the different sets of hadiths along with the historical evidence mentioned above leave no doubt that during the lifetime of the Prophet many Muslims came to love Ali deeply and sought his company and were determined to follow him after the Prophet. These people were so frequently and significantly referred to as Shi’a of Ali that gradually the term “Shi’a” alone became equivalent to the Shi’a of Ali.

More important than this is the fact that the idea of the Imamate of Ali certainl y started in the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad. The demise of the Prophet naturally brought the issue into focus and distinguished those who still believed in the necessity of following Ali from other Muslims, who sooner or later came to believe in the institution of the caliphate as the successorship to the Prophet in ruling the Islamic society, and not as a Divine position.

Describing events after the death of the prophet, Al-Mas'udi (d. 345 A.H), a great Sunni historian, writes: "Surely Imam Ali and those of his Shi’a who were with him stayed in his house at the time that the allegiance to Abu Bakr was made."14

Later certain events, such as the wars that occurred during the Caliphate of Ali and the event of Karbal‚ in which Husayn, the third imam of the Shi’a and 72 people of his family and companions were killed, made the Shi’a of Ali more recognised and defined Shi’a identity more sharply.

For example, we find in one of the early works that Ali, condemning Talhah and Zubayr, said: "Surely the followers of Talhah and Zubayr in Basra killed my Shi’a and my agents".15 Ab˚ Mikhnaf (d. 158 A.H) reports that after the death of Mu'awiyah the Shi’a gathered at the house of Sulayman b. Surad and he told them: “Mu'awiyah has died and Husayn has refused to pay allegiance to the Umayyads and has departed towards Mecca and you are his Shi’a and the Shi’a of his father”.16
Early Shi‘a

Naturally Shi’a Islam first started in the Hijaz amongst the companions of the Prophet. Reference to the Islamic historical and biographical works shows that the list of the Shi’a among the companions of the Prophet includes the following well-known bani Hashim (offspring of Hashim, great-grand father of the Prophet Muhammad): ‘Abdullah b. al-’Abbas, al-Fadl b. al-Abbas, ‘Ubaydillah b. al- ‘Abbas, Qiththam b. al-’Abbas, ‘Abd al-Rahman b. al-‘Abbas, Tamam b. al-’Abbas, Aqil b. Abi Talib, Abu Sufyan b. al-Harth b. ‘Abd al-Mutallib, Naufil b. al-Harth, ‘Abdullah b. Ja’far b. Abi Talib, ‘Awn b. Ja’far, Muhammad b. Ja’far, Rabi’at b. al-Harth b. ‘Abd al-Mutallib, al-Tufayl b. al-Harth, al-Mughayrat b. Nawfil b. al-Harith, ‘Abdullah b. al-Harth b. Nawfil, ‘Abdullah b. Abi Sufyan b. al-Harth, al-’Abbas b. Rabi’at b. al-Harth, al-’Abbas b. ‘Utbah b. Abi Lahab, ‘Abd al-Mutallib b. Rabi’at b. al-Harth, Ja’far b. Abi Sufyan b. al-Harth.

The list of Shi’a among those companions of the Prophet who were not bani Hashim includes: Salman, Miqdad, Abu Dharr, ‘Ammar b. Yasir, Hudhayfah b. al-Yaman, Khuzaymah b. Thabit, Abu Ayyub al-Ansari, Abu al- Haytham Malik b. al-Tihan, Ubayy b. Ka’b, Qays b. Sa’d b. ‘Ubadah, ‘Adiy b. Hatam, ‘Ubadah b. al-Samit, Bilal al- Habashi, Abu Rafi’, Hashim b. ‘Utbah, ‘Uthman b. Hunayf, Sahl b. Hunayf, Hakim b. Jibillah al-’Abdi, Khalid b. Sa’id b. al-’Aas, Ibn Husayb al-Aslami, Hind b. Abi Halah al-Tamimi, Ju’dah b. Hubayrah, Hujr b. ‘Adiy al-Kindi, ‘Amr b. al-Hamq al-Khuza’i, Jabir b. ‘Abdullah al-Ansari, Muhammad b. Abi Bakr (the son of the first Caliph), Aban b. Sa’id b. al-’Asi, Zayd b. Sauhan.17

Footnote:

    1. Shahres tani, Vol. 1, p. 146
    2. Al-Nawbakhti, p. 17.
    3. See al-Mufid, p. 36.
    4. Ibid, p. 38.
    5. Ibn ‘Asakir, Vol. 2, p. 442 & al-Suyuti, Vol. 6, p. 5890
    6. In the same book, Ibn Hajar has also narrated from Umm Salamah that one night when the Prophet was in her house, his daughter Fatimah arrived, with Ali following her. Then the Prophet said: .O Ali! You and your companions are in Heaven. You and your Shi’a are in Heaven..
    7. Ibn ‘Asakir, Vol. 1, p. 129, No. 180
    8. Cited in S ubhani, Vol, 6, p. 104.
    9. Among non-Shi'a sources , one c an refer to Tarikh a l-Uma m wa al- Muluk by Tabar i (d. 310 A.H.), Vol. 3, pp. 62, 63; Al-Kamil fi al- Tarik h by I bn al-Athir (d. 630 A.H.), V ol. 2, pp. 40, 41& Musna d by Ahmad b. Hanabal, Mus nad al-’Asharah al-Mubashshar in bi al- Jannah, Sakhr serial no. 841.
    10. According to Ghafari, p. 10, this tradition has been tr ansm itted through 15 non-S hi’a channels, s uc h as Musta dark by al-H akim al- Nishabur i, al-Sa wa’iq by ibn H ajar, Ka nz al-’Ummal and Yanabi’ al- Mawaddah.
    11. See, e.g. al-Tirm idhi, Kitab al-Manaq ib, Sakhr ser ial no. 3647.
    12. Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihaya h by I bn Kathir (d. 774 A. H), Vol. 7, p. 359.
    13. See for exam ple Al-Isa ba h fi Tamy iz al -Sa haba h by Ibn H ajar, V ol. 2, p. 509 and Al-Bidaya h wa al-Nihaya h by I bn Kathir , Vol. 7, p. 36.
    14. Ithba t al-Was iyah, p. 121.
    15. Waq'at S effin by Nasr b. Muzahim (d. 212 A.H ).
    16. Maqtal al -Imam al -Husayn by Abu Mik hnaf, p. 15.
    17. For example, see Buhuth fi al-Milal wa al -Nihal by J. Subhani, V ol. 6, pp. 109 & 110. Sayyid Ali al-Madani (d. 1120 A.H.) in his Al- Darjat al-Rafi’a t fi Tabaqa t al-Shi’a al -Imamiya h mentions names of 69 Com panions of the Prophet who were Shi’a. Sayyid ‘Abd al- Husayn Sharaf al-Din (1377 A.H.) in his Al-Fusul al-Muhimma h fi Ta’l if al-Umma h mentions names of more than two hundred Companions of the Prophet Muhamm ad who were Shi’a in an A-Z order star ting with Abu R afi’ and ending with Yazid b. Hautharah al-Ansar i. Yous uf b. ‘Abdullah (d. 456) in his Al-Is ti’ab, Ibn al-Athir in his Us d al-Gha bah and Ibn H ajar (d. 852 A.H.) in his Al-Isaba h are some of the non-Shi’a scholars who have mentioned some of the S hi’a pioneers.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for your response. 

I am convinced with almost all shia beliefs but still i m not finding myself comfrtable with some practices as in in the month of moharram taziya and mattam. Can i know the wisdom behind this practice?

I know this practice is done out of their own will and out of great sorrow of martyrdom of imam hussain(a.s). Wen i asked this question to my friends who are sunni,  they told me that when prophet muhammed(saw) has told not to mourn his death more than 3 days then what shias do is wrong.  And they also said that our body is Allah's amanah and we should not harm our bodies with anything. I found their answers more convincing. Can you please give me more understanding on this.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/11/2016 at 11:21 AM, Rabbe zidni ilma said:

Thank you for your resoonse. 

I am convinced with almost all shia beliefs but still i m not finding myself comfrtable with some practices as in in the month of moharram taziya and mattam. Can i know the wisdom behind this practice?

I know this practice is done out of their own will and out of great sorrow of martyrdom of imam hussain(a.s). Wen i asked this question to my friends who are sunni,  they told me that when prophet muhammed(saw) has told not to mourn his death more than 3 days then what shias do is wrong.  And they also said that our body is Allah's amanah and we should not harm our bodies with anything. I found their answers more convincing. Can you please give me more understanding on this.  

Sunnis love to quote this saying of the Prophet (saas) when it comes to remembering the martyrdom of Imam Hussain (as), however what we are mourning is not the mere loss of a loved one because we miss them. Even the death anniversary of the Prophet himself is not a day where we can just forget him and and go out and have fun and party, although we don't mourn the Prophet in the same way we do Imam Hussain. Why is this? Surely the Prophet, Ali, Fatima and Hasan (pbut) are of higher status than Hussain (as). So there is something else we are mourning which sunnis fail to see or comprehend (either by choice or ignorance). We mourn the how the light of Allah on this Earth was oppressed and slaughtered by the most wretched and vile of men. How pure evil let out its true form against pure good.

On the day of Ashura:

- The side of Imam Hussain comprised his family and 70 loyal companions against 20 to 30 thousand - good (truth) is minority and evil (falsehood) is majority.

- The side of Imam Hussain each of them fought with almost unheard of bravery to the last man for Allah and for truth and justice against an army of cowards who ended up refraining from close quarters combat and showered them with arrows and stones (including a targeted arrow on a few month old baby) all for a few coins from their vile masters.

- The side of Imam Hussain wanted to save the religion of Islam from destruction and guide people to Allah (swt) whereas the side of yazeed (la) wanted revenge for the defeat of his pagan ancestors and to put out the light of Allah and stay in power, live in lavish palaces, drink alcohol and so on.

So you see it is our love for Imam Hussain (as) that causes us to mourn for him because we are choosing his side against evil and so it is a painful and sorrowful thing for that which we love, i.e. the representation of all that is good in this world, to be assaulted and killed by that which represents pure evil and hypocrisy. The dividing line between good and evil gets blurred and faint over time so by mourning the Imam (as) that line becomes clear to us all over again and reminds us of who we really are and our real purpose in this world.

If we don't mourn Imam Hussain (as) then he will be forgotten forever and that line between good and evil will become so blurred that we wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two.

I hope I have made sense with my humble reply... this is my own personal view and philosophy about this subject. If you have anything else to ask then please do or perhaps other shiachat members can elaborate on this too.

As for harming our bodies, this is not something that Imam Hussain (as) wants. It serves no purpose and does not help us see that line between good and evil. Imam Hussain's suffering had to happen and it happened by the spilling of his pure blood. Self harm is by our own choice and therefore does NOT have to happen. Our own personal life difficulties and hardships on the other hand are not our choice and by the grace of Allah and inspiration from Imam Hussain (as) we get through our own life's troubles and emerge victorious. These minority shia who do it are wrong and we don't need sunnis to tell us they are wrong because we already know it is wrong. 

If anyone reading this is an advocate of self harm in muharram/ashura now do you see? You see how it can put people off our faith? I look forward for the day when self harm/tatbir is gone forever so that the truth and wisdom of Ahlul bayt (as) will shine without this unfortunate innovated stain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find everything well with shias in regards to namaz,  rembrance of Allah (swt) , fasting,  Belief in prophet and his household (pbut)  but few issues or instances are just eating my mind and are forcing me to believe that wat shias do is wrong.  I have few other questions which i will list below.  Please help me to clear these doubts out of mind. 

1) Do shias refer to Sahih hadiths for general purposes? If not,  why?  If yes, how sunni sources that quoted against the three caliphs are only refered?

2) what is turbah?  Is it just a piece of clay or dried mud from karbala? 

3) Fasting the Day of 'Ashuraa expiates( the minor sins. Committed in) the previous year".(Reported by Muslim)

Is the above stated hadith authentic? Has our prophet mentioned about observing fast on the day of Ashura according shia sources?  If not, can i have the hadith in which prophet has talked about the day of ashura? 

4) what is the obligation on muslims to do on the day of Ashura?

Please dont get offended of my questions.  It might seem a bit unethical but i really need to know the answers.  Thank you. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Rabbe zidni ilma said:

2) what is turbah?  Is it just a piece of clay or dried mud from karbala? 

Salam, Sister. Welcome to ShiaChat. The Holy Prophet SA used to pray with his forehead on the earth and his Ahlul Bayt AS prayed in a similar way, mustahab. There is hadith about the earth being sacred and the dust of Karbala is respected. People can make their own clay tablet to pray on, but some businesses have started to make turbahs for people's convenience. A small portion of dust from Karbala is added to a large quantity of clay and water, poured into small molds. When they are dried they are ready to distribute to those who need them. It's not required to pray on a turbah. The place of prostration should be on something natural. It's a convenience to carry with you so that you always have a pure place to prostrate on, and at the same time remember that you are a Shia. Other people use paper, wood or stone. You can read some hadith here:

https://www.al-islam.org/nutshell/files/turbah.pdf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Rabbe zidni ilma said:

I find everything well with shias in regards to namaz,  rembrance of Allah (swt) , fasting,  Belief in prophet and his household (pbut)  but few issues or instances are just eating my mind and are forcing me to believe that wat shias do is wrong.  I have few other questions which i will list below.  Please help me to clear these doubts out of mind. 

1) Do shias refer to Sahih hadiths for general purposes? If not,  why?  If yes, how sunni sources that quoted against the three caliphs are only refered?

2) what is turbah?  Is it just a piece of clay or dried mud from karbala? 

3) Fasting the Day of 'Ashuraa expiates( the minor sins. Committed in) the previous year".(Reported by Muslim)

Is the above stated hadith authentic? Has our prophet mentioned about observing fast on the day of Ashura according shia sources?  If not, can i have the hadith in which prophet has talked about the day of ashura? 

4) what is the obligation on muslims to do on the day of Ashura?

Please dont get offended of my questions.  It might seem a bit unethical but i really need to know the answers.  Thank you. 

Sister couple of things I would say. You have said you are Muslim and you are exploring the various sects. In recognition of that I would change your religion to Islam on your profile page.

I would imagine it is very difficult for a new convert to go through the mental gymnastics of trying to separate out fact from fiction and indeed Islam from cultural practices.

Ultimately the question comes down to several things.

Did the Holy Prophet chose a successor( this is disputed Sunnis say no Shias say yes).

If he did choose who did he choose.

The problem is, is that there are conflicting hadith and this issue has raged on for 1400 years.

A very simple way to look at the issue is to see what happened prior to Islam amongst the prophets.

Who was entrusted to carry the message on. In virtually every case you look where we have historical evidence the message has been entrusted to a family member where they exist.

Hz Abraham to Hz Ishmael and Hz Isaac

Hz Isaac to Hz Jacob

Hz Jacob to Hz Yusuf

Hz Daoud to Hz Suleiman.

I am sure there are many other examples. I cannot think of any examples ( that are considered authentic) where a prophet has handed over responsibility for the message to a 'friend' rather then a relative.

I suppose the theory is that a relative has had a total immersion in the religion from birth and were also normally Prophets.

Friends were almost inevitably converts who brought a lot of baggage with them.

If you accept that Allah in his infinite wisdom would not change his way of doing things for his last messenger then all you have to consider is the infallibilty argument   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No offence taken... truth can never be reached without asking questions.

4 hours ago, Rabbe zidni ilma said:

Thank you.  That made sense to me. 

In india, I see people beating their chest and doing mattam.  Do you say that even doing this also comes under harming themselves and should not happen? 

I think beating chest in uniform and as a procession is nice... it shows a form of unity and emulates how what happened to our Imam (as) is a tragedy for all shia all at the same time, kind of similar to the rituals in hajj only that chest beating is not obligatory. When chest beating reaches a point where you are harming yourself then that's when it needs to stop.

 

3 hours ago, Rabbe zidni ilma said:

I find everything well with shias in regards to namaz,  rembrance of Allah (swt) , fasting,  Belief in prophet and his household (pbut)  but few issues or instances are just eating my mind and are forcing me to believe that wat shias do is wrong.  I have few other questions which i will list below.  Please help me to clear these doubts out of mind. 

1) Do shias refer to Sahih hadiths for general purposes? If not,  why?  If yes, how sunni sources that quoted against the three caliphs are only refered?

2) what is turbah?  Is it just a piece of clay or dried mud from karbala? 

3) Fasting the Day of 'Ashuraa expiates( the minor sins. Committed in) the previous year".(Reported by Muslim)

Is the above stated hadith authentic? Has our prophet mentioned about observing fast on the day of Ashura according shia sources?  If not, can i have the hadith in which prophet has talked about the day of ashura? 

4) what is the obligation on muslims to do on the day of Ashura?

Please dont get offended of my questions.  It might seem a bit unethical but i really need to know the answers.  Thank you. 

 

I'm afraid I'm no expert in hadeeth so perhaps other shiachat members who can look up sources can help there. I will give you my view as much as I can though.

4 hours ago, Rabbe zidni ilma said:

1) Do shias refer to Sahih hadiths for general purposes? If not,  why?  If yes, how sunni sources that quoted against the three caliphs are only refered?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this question... yes we do refer to Sahih hadeeths for general purpose, why wouldn't we? When we enter into a discussion with a sunni and that discussion topic is about the first 3 caliphs then yes we will refer to sunni sources about them.

4 hours ago, Rabbe zidni ilma said:

2) what is turbah?  Is it just a piece of clay or dried mud from karbala? 

Yes that is exactly what it is and most turbah come from Karbala, although some turbah can come from the holy city of Qom where Imam Ridha (as) sister is buried. This clay is from the land where Imam Hussain blood was spilt and it is loved by Allah (swt), because our Imam gave everything for Allah. So we seek nearness to Allah by praying on this blessed soil or clay.

4 hours ago, Rabbe zidni ilma said:

3) Fasting the Day of 'Ashuraa expiates( the minor sins. Committed in) the previous year".(Reported by Muslim)

Is the above stated hadith authentic? Has our prophet mentioned about observing fast on the day of Ashura according shia sources?  If not, can i have the hadith in which prophet has talked about the day of ashura? 

As I said I am no expert in looking up exact sources... but I will say this. For the people of knowledge and learning authenticity of a hadeeth is established if it is Sahih, Sareeh (explicit/clear) and mujma3 3alayh (both shia and sunni agree on it's authenticity). This particular hadeeth fails these criteria as far as we are concerned. I have heard that this hadeeth was fabricated by bani umayya deliberately to coincide with the martyrdom anniversary of Imam Hussain (as) in an attempt to make people forget his cause. I wouldn't be surprised if this was true as they were the masters at fabricating ahadeeth. 

 

4 hours ago, Rabbe zidni ilma said:

4) what is the obligation on muslims to do on the day of Ashura?

We are ordered by Allah to obey and follow our Prophet and his Ahlul bayt (as). On Ashura we affirm that we wish to be their true shia by showing our full support for our Imam Hussain who was the Wali of Allah at that time and that we will support him and the Prophet whether we existed back then at the Imams time or now 1400 years later. So generally speaking we are obliged to follow Ahlul bayt (as) (we wouldn't be shia otherwise) and a natural result of this is that we commemorate that tragedy on Ashura.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you all for your replies. 

I see a lot of hate posts in internet on the day of Ashura for shias and i sense that non shias try to portray that Shias are not muslims mostly on the basis of what shias do on the day of ashura i.e beating their chests, bleeding and so on.  

Why is this happening! 

Was doing mattam a part from prophet's time?? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/13/2016 at 3:55 AM, Rabbe zidni ilma said:

posts in internet on the day of Ashura for shias and i sense that non shias try to portray that Shias are not muslims mostly on the basis of what shias do on the day of ashura i.e beating their chests, bleeding

Dear brother, the bloody carnivals seen on the streets on the Day of Ashura have nothing to do with the essence of the Shia religion. Neither Shia nor the Shia religious authorities recommend and instruct Shia Muslims to inflict harm upon themselves. It is  nonsensical and embarrassing. There are some people who, contrary to what the Shiite religious authorities have advised, perform tatbir and hit themselves with swords and daggers whereas in fact the true goal of mourning is to remember the suffering of Imam Hussein and his devout companions and to learn lessons from this great event in the history of Islam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/13/2016 at 3:55 AM, Rabbe zidni ilma said:

Was doing mattam a part from prophet's time?? 

do you mean was matam done in the prophets time? if yes, then yes matam was done in the prophets time. he did it on the body of hazrat hamza upon his shahadat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/11/2016 at 8:08 AM, Rabbe zidni ilma said:

Assalamu alaykum folks, 

walaykumsalam !

Life is a journey, of transitions, of questioning of arriving at a place and then questioning everything you thought you knew. SubhanAllah, you have joined the religion of monotheism and tawheed. Before we get into all of the many aspects of shia islam, do you agree with me that the most important 'thing' is God and how we understand our creator and sustainer? 

I would like you to compare shia narrations, to narrations from other schools in Islam about the very nature of Allah [azwj]. This might shock you, so do read it caution:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/11/2016 at 11:21 AM, Rabbe zidni ilma said:

Thank you for your response. 

I am convinced with almost all shia beliefs but still i m not finding myself comfrtable with some practices as in in the month of moharram taziya and mattam. Can i know the wisdom behind this practice?

I know this practice is done out of their own will and out of great sorrow of martyrdom of imam hussain(a.s). Wen i asked this question to my friends who are sunni,  they told me that when prophet muhammed(saw) has told not to mourn his death more than 3 days then what shias do is wrong.  And they also said that our body is Allah's amanah and we should not harm our bodies with anything. I found their answers more convincing. Can you please give me more understanding on this.  

Ofcourse, and even in shia islam, many ulema , like Sayed Khomeini and Sayed Ali Khamanei, Sayed Fadllulah and others have spoken out against certain 'Muharram' rituals which go against islamic morals and principles.

Today you'll find a minority of shia's as you have probably seen in the news, taking blades, or whips with little blades, and cutting and hurting themselves. This practise has absolutely no religious nor rational basis, and many of our ulema, from Ayatullah Khomeini [rh], to Ayatullah Khamanei, to Ayatullah Fadllulah [rh] have forbidden this practise. Unfortunately, culture and tradition have infiltrated many madhabs and many religions, but inshAllah, due to the many movements being made to help eradicate this rather recent innovation practised among a minority, we may see it continue to decrease in popularity.

Now, you also have shia muslims who use their hands and hit their chests. If this is done in a way that is civil, it does not constitute self harm and is more of a symbolic sign and show of sadness. It is also important here to note that this is not the 'prescribed' way of commemorating, but it is cultural, and culture can have a place in islam so long as it does not violate the tenants of the religion. Hitting your chest, if done in a civil way, will not cause any harm at all. You see, it alludes to symbolism which you want to emanate and be reflected to everyone in the outside world. It is essential here to note, if someone takes their top off and starts to really hit themselves hard with both hands, such a practise should be discouraged and i personally am against that particular way.

Now, shia's essentially remember the Grandson of Muhammed [saw], Hussain ibn Ali [as] who is regarded by all sunni's and shia's as the leader of the youths of paradise [we will all enter heaven as youths, no-one there will be 'old' or an 'elder'].We also remember the family and close companions of the Prophet[saw] who, in Kerbala were slaughtered, mutilated, beheaded, and the women and captives taken in chains. The caliph of the time was the evil and despotic man , Yazid ibn Muawiyah ibn Abi Sufiyan.

We don't necessarily mourn for the particular 'deaths' as we do collectively for the absolute way the ummah deviated, and how rife injustice was, and what calamity befell the Ummah, that only 50 years after the death of the Ummah, such an evil and despotic man essentially occupied the very same seat of power as the Prophet[saw]. 

Furthermore, according to traditions accepted by both shia and sunni muslims, the angel Jibrael forewarned the death of Hussain ibn Ali a.s, which caused tears to swell in the eyes of the Prophet [saw]. 

Narrated Muhammad bin Udaid, narrated Shurahbil bin Mudrik, from Abdullah bin Nujayy, from his father, that he traveled with Ali , and he used to carry his purifying water. When they were next to Nainawa on his way to Siffin, Ali called, “Be patient Oh Abu Abdillah (the kunya of his son al-Hussain), be patient Oh Abu Abdillah by the banks of the Euphrates. I [Nujayy] said, “what is this?”. He [Ali] said, “I entered upon the Prophet one day while his eyes were shedding tears. I said, 'what is it with yours eyes shedding tears?'. He said, 'Rather, Jibreel was here earlier and he told me that al-Hussain will be killed by the bank of the Euphrates and he [Jibreel] said 'do you want me to provide you a sample from his soil [where he will be killed] so you can smell it?' and I said 'yes'. So he extended his hand and he took a grip from the soil and gave it to me so I couldn't help my eyes to fill with tears'”. [Recorded by Ahmad, vol. 1, p. 85.]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Grand Ayatullah Khamenei

khamenei.jpg


Ayatullah Khamenei, in his position as the Hakim Al-Shari’i has given a Hukm forbidding blood flagellation. A hukm is binding on all Muslims, unlike a fatwa.


Question 1450:
Is hitting oneself with swords halal if it is done in secret? Or is your fatwa in this regard universal?

Answer:
In addition to the fact that it is not held in the common view as manifestations of mourning and grief and it has no precedent at the lifetime of the Imams (a.s.) and even after that and we have not received any tradition quoted from the Infallibles (a.s.) about any support for this act, be it privately or publicly, this practice would, at the present time, give others a bad image of our school of thought. Therefore, there is no way that it can be considered permissible.


Question 1449:
In commemorating the martyrdom of Imam Husayn (a.s.) on the tenth of Muharram, some people hit themselves with a machete, or walk bare-footed on fire. Such actions defame Shi‘ism and put it in a bad light, if not undermine it. They cause bodily and spiritual harms on these doing it as well. What is your opinion in this matter?

Answer:
Any practice that causes bodily harm, or leads to defaming the faith, is haram. Accordingly, the believers have to steer clear of it. There is no doubt that many of these practices besmirch the image of Ahlul Bayt’s (a.s.) School of Thought which is the worst damage and loss.




Ayatullah Mutahhari


mutahhari.jpg


“Blood matam in its present form does not have a rational or religious basis. It is a clear instance of deviation. At least, in the present day it causes Shi’ism to be questioned. Activities that do not have any relation to the goals of Imam Husayn (a) are razors, blades and locks. Striking the head with a blade is the same. This is a mistake. Some people take blades and strike their heads making blood flow – for what? This action is not mourning.” 

Howzah va Ruhaniyat, v.3

In his book “Al Malahama Al-Husainiya”, Ayatullah Mutahhari adopts Ayatullah Muhsin Al-Amin’s opnion.




Grand Ayatullah Khomeini


Khomeini.jpg

“In his name, the Most High. Do not perform blood matam or the likes in the present state. If it does not include forbidden actions or defamation of the religion than there is no problem.





Grand Ayatullah Muhsin Al-Amin Al-AmuliAyatullah Muhsin Al-Amin (~1868-1952), was one of the greatest scholars of his time. He is known for his biographical encyclopaedia, Ayan Al-Shi’ah (62 volumes) and for his very strong opposition to blood shedding rituals. He is known to have boycotted meetings where they were performed.He wrote the book “Al-Majalis Al-Saniya” (1928) in which he said: “And what some people do injuring themselves with swords and hitting themselves in a way that harms them is from the encouragement of Shaytan"




Grand Ayatullah Abul Hassan EsfahaniAyatullah Esfahani (1860–1946) was the highest ranking Shia jurist and the sole Marja of his time. He openly supported the stance of Ayatullah Muhsin Al-Amin on this issue.“The usage of swords, chains, drums, horns and the likes today, which have become common in mourning ceremonies on Ashura, is definitely forbidden and against religious doctrine.”
Dayrah al-Ma”arif Tashayu’, v.2, p.531; A’yan al-Shia, v.10, p.378; Professor Hassan Shabir, Tarikh Iraq Mu’asir, v.2, p.340

Istifta’at Imam, v.3, miscellaneous questions, question 37.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/13/2016 at 8:55 AM, Rabbe zidni ilma said:

x

With regards to ahadith and narrations, we believe many of the narrations in sunni books are those we accept, mainly because we also have the same or similar narrations in our own books. However, we believe after the death of the prophet [saw] and this is historically attested to by even non-muslim historians as well as the hadith collectors themselves, many deviant and variant forms of islam emerged, and many began to take recourse in fabrication traditions and narrations, either out of wanting prestige in having many traditions, or for their own socio-economic or political gain. Hadith fabrication was also sponsored at the government level by the umayyads and Abbasids, who were evil, vicious, corrupt and dictatorial dynasties.

This is why we shia's followed the command of the Prophet [saw] from Allah [azwj] who in his infinite knowledge and wisdom knew what would unfold, and hence commanded us to hold onto two weighty things, the Quran and the Ahlulbayt asws. We shia's do not have 'saheeh' hadith books, but we have four primary books and each hadith must be individually scrutinised, those books are: Al Kafi, Manla yaduhuru al faqiq, tahbib al ahkam and al istibsar. Our chains go to the family of the Prophet [saw] and chosen imams from his ahlulbayt asws, such as Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s, Hasan, Hussain asws, etc.  We also in cases have chains from reliable companions. 

Compare for example, ahadith about the nature of Allah azwj:

Contention two- Does Allah change states, or undergo change?

 

Bukhari:

"...What keeps you here when all the people have gone?' They will say, 'We parted with them (in the world) when we were in greater need of them than we are today, we heard the call of one proclaiming, 'Let every nation follow what they used to worship,' and now we are waiting for our Lord.' Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation..."

 

Al Kafi

H 313, Ch. 16, h 4 – Graded Sahih by Alama Majlisi

The Imam said, "There is nothing in the universe, but that is subject to annihilation, alteration, change, decay, transition from one color to another, from one shape to another and from one quality to another. They increase, decrease and change from decrease to increase, except He, Who is the Lord of the worlds. He alone is eternal and in one state. He is the first, before every thing and the last eternally. His attributes and names do not change as they do in the case of others. A man at one time is dust, at other time flesh and blood, then turns into decaying bones and finally becomes dust. A piece of date  at one time is raw, at another time ripe, mature and then it dries up. With every change, the names and attributes also change. Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious is different from all such things."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recent Posts on ShiaChat!

    • Salaam Alaykum When I was back home, I thought my dad is abusive. He made me cry at 2 am by creating a family fight. That time I was 7 years old. A 7 years old boy was crying at 2 am. A 7 years old was in the middle of family problem with a HUGE amount of stress. Now I gained the freedom that you are seeking. Now after living seven years away from my dad, I just want to see my same dad and kiss his feet and hands for his effort on raising me. He never let me grow up on street, he supported me financially. I'm grateful for that. I wish I could squeeze his hands one more time. When I have stress and pressure, I need my dad support. To the OP: you're dad is a good man. One time with all of those restrictions that you have, just sit down and have a tee and biscuits with him and enjoy.
    • It does not look pretty. They freak me out. Wear an aqeeq and call it a day please!
    • Salaam First part: what's that?  Second part: no I wear aqeeq, dur e Najaaf, feroz, yaqoot. I also have the threads we touch the zaris with in ziyarat. 
    • Everyhing is instant now a days  Fine....
    • One muslim asked me that why we do latmiyah and cry, so I told because of mourning the grandson of Prophet Muhammad (saws) martyrdom, then he answer: "So you beat yourselves to this day for that reason.. Really.." And that's how it saddens to hear how the hearth have become so blind, that nothing but insulting the 'Aali Muhammad.
×