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How to prove ismaili belief is false

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From an outsiders opinion, ahadith seems to be stories meant to confuse, separate, and divide. There is usually an agenda between the lines, and the context is long lost. Black and white become grey and grey becomes the new black. 

It's not new. Christians call them "Commentaries". Different commentaries, of course created different denominations, then spin-offs. 

It's interesting how intense these stories can be, and the astounding amount of research that goes into finding out if they are truth or not, based on the reliability of fallible men through the ages. Based on the assumption they are true, or what one would like to believe, they become part of the next generations problem to sort out.

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18 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

From an outsiders opinion, ahadith seems to be stories meant to confuse, separate, and divide. There is usually an agenda between the lines, and the context is long lost. Black and white become grey and grey becomes the new black. 

It's not new. Christians call them "Commentaries". Different commentaries, of course created different denominations, then spin-offs. 

It's interesting how intense these stories can be, and the astounding amount of research that goes into finding out if they are truth or not, based on the reliability of fallible men through the ages. Based on the assumption they are true, or what one would like to believe, they become part of the next generations problem to sort out.

This is a very good point.  ahadith (plural of hadith- took me years to connect) are meant as a source of teaching on matters where the Qur'an is silent, or where it simply advises Muslims to follow the teachings of the Prophet (SAWAS).  The issue is that during the years of the first Caliphs (and I don't curse or disparage them- I believe they disobeyed God by disobeying the Prophet (SAWAS), but they did what they did and we have to sort it out) it was forbidden to collect hadith.  So to follow the Christian example out, it's similar to how Biblical scholarship can put the earliest of the Synoptic Gospels within 70 years of Jesus (AS), but not in the time he was known to be teaching and preaching in Galilee.  Like the commentaries that were written by Christians, they become a source of division, and they should not have been.

My problem, and I see this all the time on this site is that many Shi'a will quote a classical Sunni source.  Sadly, I see more ahadith quoted from the "sahih" books of Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim.  I don't doubt their scholarship, but I question the accuracy of a lot of what is in there.  In case you haven't picked it up, sahih means reliable or trustworthy.  We (Shi'a) don't believe anything except the Qur'an is "sahih."  In the Islamic milieu, Allah (Subhana wa ta'ala) never says that He will protect the Hadith from being altered, but He does promise that the Qur'an will never be altered.  But the problem is that there is so much that becomes important from a jurisprudential perspective that in our debates and discussions, many will appeal to ahadith to prove their point.  I also think that Shi'i make the mistake of using Sunni sources (like Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawood, Tirmidi, etc) to prove their points in the spirit of ijma (or consensus).

The worry I have is that there are hadith in Sunni sources that we do not generally trust as being reliable.  Generally, we do not accept traditions narrated by A'isha, the wife of the Prophet (SAWAS) or by certain companions.  One in particular that is a worry for me (and I don't believe I'm alone) is Abu Hurayrah.  He spent about 2 years with the Prophet (SAWAS) but narrated almost 5400 hadith.  Even more of a worry (and even wikipedia caught this) is the fact that many of his hadith are unique; meaning only one person supposedly saw the  event in question.

So my point is that the Shi'a have a collection of ahadith - Al Kafi. Unlike Sunni sources, the person who compiled it (Shaykh Al Kulayni) admitted that there could be things in there that are not accurate and if it disagreed with Qur'an, throw it out.  The Sunni remind me of the Catholic church in that they've kind of painted themselves into the corner.  They take the Ahadith literature as almost if not actually on par with Qur'an.  That's a problem, because many ahadith are known to have been forged.  Sayf ibn Umar (la'naa on him) for example is known to have forged hundreds if not thousands of hadith to benefit the usurpers of authority after the death of the Prophet (SAWAS).

Anyway, so in this case, sadly, yeah they are definitely being used to divide.  @AleviTurkmenKhorasan is right in the sense that there are many things derived from hadith that are thought to come from the Prophet (SAWAS) himself or the Qur'an itself that are congruent with the 5 pillars of Islam, prayer, etc., in the sense that they are spoken of in the Qur'an and hadith, but not in the sense as we know them today.  The Qur'an speaks about prayer and fasting, charity, etc., but the forms are not explicitly laid out as we know them today.  They are spoken of in more general terms.  Prayer is the most obvious.  The Qur'an commands us to pray, but the form of the prayer is not specifically laid out.  We follow the traditions of the Prophet (SAWAS).  Unfortunately, I believe there are some more literal minded folks (and sadly even from among the Shi'a) who take a more hard-line approach to it.  The fact of the matter is that Islam is not monolithic and it did not arrive in a neat package exactly as we know it today.  It evolved over time.  I do believe that it is incumbent on those of us who claim to believe to learn and understand the laws and injunctions of the deen as clearly as we can and to always seek knowledge honestly.  I don't like seeing Shi'i behaving like Salafis and insisting that their interpretation is the only correct one.  We all have to follow our conscience, and like Martin Luther (roughly) said: to oppose the conscience is neither right nor safe.  Here I stand; God help me, Amen.

Whether we are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc., we all have a conscience that God put within us, and if we all honestly follow it, I believe that in spirit, our faiths will be the same even if the outward practices differ, and the reason for that is because we have our own spiritual GPS already embedded in the OS.  I believe if we follow that honestly and seek to honestly do right in the sight of our Lord, then we will be OK.  I trust in His mercy.  I just don't like when it's an argument over legalistic matters.  Like a Sufi Shaykh (Norudeen Durkee) said, many of the scholars are nothing more than pious law clerks.  Jurisprudence (fiqh in Arabic) is important, but like the Catholics who focus on man made traditions, or the Jews who focus on the letter of the Law not the spirit of it, we risk losing our faith in legal matters.  In other words, we make it more complex than it needs to be, and I believe we do so to our peril.

That got lengthy.  Thanks for reading! :)

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12 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Interesting you mention Sahih.

I find the Sahih international, (Quran) to be the most opinionated of all.

It's a very valid point.  I know from studying other languages that English is deficient in a number of ways.  It is impossible to translate (in my opinion) the true meaning and color of any Semitic language, whether Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic, or Syriac into an Germanic language.  I have yet to read Qur'an in Arabic, but that is the plan!

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15 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Interesting you mention Sahih.

I find the Sahih international, (Quran) to be the most opinionated of all.

Really?  I believe that distinction really goes to Muhsin Khan,  the translator put his opinion in brackets and tried to twist and distort the Qur'an to his views. Almost ruined the Qur'an for me when I first started reading. I eventually figured out that Muhsin Khan had a strong Wahhabi/Salafi bias. If you go on Corpus Qur'an, you can easily compare the Arabic with the translation and see the distortion. 

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Yes, the English language. Websters dictionary just added a few more words, Most are a mish mash of popular slang, e.g. brexit. youtuber, etc. Add to that the change in meanings of established words and you have a language so polluted it's worse than Arabic for multiple meanings. 

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On 16/12/2016 at 3:00 AM, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

Don't forget Alevis read the Qur'an as Zahir and Batinniye 

We perform everything that is mentioned in the Quran

:salam:

Brother, excuse my curiosity but since you often mention your practices and beliefs, I have those very down to earth questions. I am trying to understand if you only read the batiniya or also perform it.

Do you wash your limbs before prayer ? Do you turn to Kaaba ? Do you fast ? Pay alms ? Go to Hajj ?

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1) we believe you have to be clean inside and out everyday even without pray, as clean comes from Allah 

2) we do not turn to Kaaba but to "DEDE" whom is from Ahlibeyte bloodline

 Whatever you're seeking, seek it in yourself/It's not in Mecca or in Jerusalem or along the hajj.

Kaabe was built by human prophet Abraham, Hz Ali was also born , we respect it but we do not pray towards it, why? Because it's human built and which means idol

Did God not ask all creation to bow down to human? İblis did not but all angels and creations of Allah did. Hence we turn towards the DEDE whom is seyyid from Ahlibeyt

3) of course we fast but during aşure , Ramadan 3 days etc 

And yes we support charity and ggive food but we do not brag about it as it is suppose to be done everyday 

Another point we are not supported by the government in anyway or form

 

We would love to hajj but we cannot why because of social injustices, during past centuries

 

 

    

 

 

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On 18/12/2016 at 4:10 PM, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

1) we believe you have to be clean inside and out everyday even without pray, as clean comes from Allah 

2) we do not turn to Kaaba but to "DEDE" whom is from Ahlibeyte bloodline

 Whatever you're seeking, seek it in yourself/It's not in Mecca or in Jerusalem or along the hajj.

Kaabe was built by human prophet Abraham, Hz Ali was also born , we respect it but we do not pray towards it, why? Because it's human built and which means idol

Did God not ask all creation to bow down to human? İblis did not but all angels and creations of Allah did. Hence we turn towards the DEDE whom is seyyid from Ahlibeyt

3) of course we fast but during aşure , Ramadan 3 days etc 

And yes we support charity and ggive food but we do not brag about it as it is suppose to be done everyday 

Another point we are not supported by the government in anyway or form

 

We would love to hajj but we cannot why because of social injustices, during past centuries

 

 

    

 

 

I have to agree with you on most of that. Turning to dede is similar to Taqlid or simply going to Islamic Scholars for help. This is supported in Quran and Hadith. Actually I believe there is a whole chapter in Al Kafi for respect toward Alims.

I think it would help if a dede wrote a book explaining the principles of Alevism so people could learn about it.

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I see recurring points with cleanliness, prayer, fasting, and  giving. Among the true Christians these are just as valid.

Had me confused for a minute because DEDI is the Hebrew transliteration of Jehovah, (commonly referred to as Allah in Arab countries).

Not sure the inner workings of a Mosque.  There is a church up the road from me. Actually, the church sits up front and behind it is the "parsonage". It's the house built for the Parson. He is the leader of that church.  Of course in Canada he has not judicial authority, but is always there for guidance. Not sure he qualifies as a DEDE, or a Baba..

 

Edited by Son of Placid
fat fingers

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On 18/12/2016 at 10:10 PM, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

1) we believe you have to be clean inside and out everyday even without pray, as clean comes from Allah 

2) we do not turn to Kaaba but to "DEDE" whom is from Ahlibeyte bloodline

 Whatever you're seeking, seek it in yourself/It's not in Mecca or in Jerusalem or along the hajj.

Kaabe was built by human prophet Abraham, Hz Ali was also born , we respect it but we do not pray towards it, why? Because it's human built and which means idol

Did God not ask all creation to bow down to human? İblis did not but all angels and creations of Allah did. Hence we turn towards the DEDE whom is seyyid from Ahlibeyt

3) of course we fast but during aşure , Ramadan 3 days etc 

And yes we support charity and ggive food but we do not brag about it as it is suppose to be done everyday 

Another point we are not supported by the government in anyway or form

 

We would love to hajj but we cannot why because of social injustices, during past centuries

 

 

    

 

 

Thanks for your reply. 

I found the 2) not convincing since man, just like Kaaba is man made. Without the act of procreation one can not give birth.

Unlike Adam (as) who was made by Allah (swt) Himself.

So bowing to a human being is not logical, not to mention a Dede is not an infaillible or that not even infaillibles asked anyone to bow or prostrate towards them.

This really seems to be a distorsion of religion. And by knowing the importance of prostration, I would not take it lightly.

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Actually, Allah has created man, kaabe on the other hand is built by man, just like idol

Did Hz Ali pray towards the kaabe?

Alevis have cem, semah and pray 

İslam dininde adına salat denilen bir ibadet biçimi vardır. Bu ibadetin unsurları; kıyam yani ayakta durmak, rüku yani öne doğru eğilmek, secde yani yere kapanmak, ka’de yani oturmak, 

1) stand

2) lean forward 

3) prostrate yourself 

 

 

 

 

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I'm not Alevi :) But, qibla is Allah's friend and his pure progeny, Ibrahim a.s. and his pure progeny a.s. They are Allah's Beyt, Ehl-ul-Beyt. Any of them is insan-ul-kamil (a perfect human), they don't mix with jinn.

This is why h. Muhammed Mustafa sawa was in front of all Muslims in es-salat, turned towards Allah swt and all behind him were turned towards Muhammed Mustafa sawa. There's no saff in front of others, it's only one man (or woman). Don't you see?

If there's no Ibrahim's a.s. progeny turned towards Him, so that we can turned towards them... the only option is to turn ourselves towards Him alone. And whereever we turn our faces, we turned them towards Him.

Allah swt knows best.

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On 9/18/2016 at 0:28 AM, Son of Placid said:

ismaili is the most popular sect in Calgary. I worked with many of them and find them for the most part to be very nice people, with high morals, and flexible enough in their prayer times not to cause their employer any grief. 

What is it they believe that is so wrong?

Because it is very convenient religion. No hard and fast rules, you can Gamble and or drink sell spirits..No dress code in Jamat khanas etc. which is totally against Islam...Sorry, I am a Ismaili..Still trying to figure out what the truth is. Confused as anything..

 

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On 9/18/2016 at 12:28 AM, Son of Placid said:

ismaili is the most popular sect in Calgary. I worked with many of them and find them for the most part to be very nice people, with high morals, and flexible enough in their prayer times not to cause their employer any grief. 

What is it they believe that is so wrong?

Because it is very convenient religion. No hard and fast rules, you can Gamble and or drink sell spirits..No dress code in Jamat khanas etc. which is totally against Islam...Sorry, I am a Ismaili..Still trying to figure out what the truth is. Confused as anything..

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2 hours ago, Aam Admi said:

Because it is very convenient religion. No hard and fast rules, you can Gamble and or drink sell spirits..No dress code in Jamat khanas etc. which is totally against Islam...Sorry, I am a Ismaili..Still trying to figure out what the truth is. Confused as anything..

 

That could be said in another way... Acceptance of people as they are. Many groups take on this approach in order to bring people to God. What they do with it is up to them. An open church can help one another. The stricter the church, the darker the sins.

In Paul's first letter to the Corinthians he wrote, "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." 

Later on, in the same letter he wrote almost the same thing, "All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify." 

I doubt you see the Imam in a casino, nor in a bar. 

You are only confused with the rulings of competing religions. It would seem to me your conscience is fine. You know you don't have to gamble even if the entire assembly does. If a member offers you alcohol, you don't have to take it.  A church, (aka temple, aka mosque) should be regarded as a place where you can go and worship God as you know Him. 

The truth is...nobody actually knows the truth.

My Father has studied more than 60 years and he would tell you, Learn God, love God, practice the love that you learn. 

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