Jump to content
Qasim_Husayn

How to prove ismaili belief is false

Recommended Posts

The hadith of the "twelve sucessors or twelve Imams" which is documented in both Sunni and Shia sources is a very good reference to fault the belief of Ismaili. According to this tradition, the numbers of successors/Imams immediately after the Prophet (s.a.w.a) are twelve, no more or less. And Imam Musa Kadhim was the  7th Imam and not the last.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The scholars of sunni hadith all say it's about the sunni caliphs.There are also many versions of the same hadith with different numbers
And hadith isn't history that's for one and Aga khans lineage is documented by multiple sources (not just hadith) but historical sources

How would you refute this 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ismaili is the most popular sect in Calgary. I worked with many of them and find them for the most part to be very nice people, with high morals, and flexible enough in their prayer times not to cause their employer any grief. 

What is it they believe that is so wrong?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎18‎-‎9‎-‎2016 at 6:28 AM, Son of Placid said:

ismaili is the most popular sect in Calgary. I worked with many of them and find them for the most part to be very nice people, with high morals, and flexible enough in their prayer times not to cause their employer any grief. 

What is it they believe that is so wrong?

I believe the tittle is not really respectful. We are all looking for truth regardless of creed or religion.

Besides that we must not forget they are Shia muslims as well.

Edited by Faruk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/18/2016 at 0:28 AM, Son of Placid said:

ismaili is the most popular sect in Calgary. I worked with many of them and find them for the most part to be very nice people, with high morals, and flexible enough in their prayer times not to cause their employer any grief. 

What is it they believe that is so wrong?

Most shia scholars I have heard , do not consider them as Muslims. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎10‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 1:01 PM, Son of Placid said:

Not a clue what that means.

 

Sorry no one answered this- in Islam, there are two concepts that are applied when reading scripture: the batin (or esoteric) and the zahir (or exoteric).  So what my brother was saying was that the Isma'ilis are an exoteric school similar to the Alevis. 

I don't know much about either except that I happened to know what batiniyye meant. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, realizm said:

:salam:

Is it what you heard, or did you hear scholars saying Ismailis were not muslims?

There must be some point where Ismailis crossed the line, took up a heresay, left a tradition, refuted a doctrine, something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎10‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 9:41 AM, reisiger said:

Sorry no one answered this- in Islam, there are two concepts that are applied when reading scripture: the batin (or esoteric) and the zahir (or exoteric).  So what my brother was saying was that the Isma'ilis are an exoteric school similar to the Alevis. 

I don't know much about either except that I happened to know what batiniyye meant. 

My bad- I meant to say the Isma'ilis are an ESOTERIC not exoteric.  For Twelver Shi'i, there is an esoteric concept called Irfan. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here are seven proofs from the ismailis, detailed. They can be refuted, there are some holes but i am no scholar.

https://ismailignosis.com/2014/10/02/who-succeeded-imam-jafar-al-sadiq-seven-proofs-for-the-imamat-of-imam-ismail-ibn-jafar/

Summary of the Seven Proofs

Below is a summary of the proofs. Please read beyond for the evidence for each, or click on the proof number, to jump directly to a specific proof.

Taken individually or collectively, these Seven Proofs demonstrate that the legitimate successor and true Imam after the Imam Ja‘far al-Sadiq is Mawlānā Ismā‘īl ibn Ja‘far and that the Present and Living Imam of all Shi‘i Muslims must be the direct lineal descendant of Isma‘il ibn Ja‘far. 

Proof #1: Imām Ja‘far designated Mawlānā Ismā‘īl as the next Imam by the rule of nass as per Twelver, Ismaili, Sunni and academic sources.

Proof #2: The only way to deny the nass of Mawlānā Isma‘il is through contradictory hadithspresented in later Twelver hadith books.

Proof #3: Isma‘il’s death before Imam Ja‘far is not confirmed and may have been staged to protect him — as he was reportedly seen by eyewitnesses after his alleged death.

Proof #4: Even if Isma‘il had died before his father, the Imamat continued in Isma‘il’s son, Muhammad ibn Isma‘il, whom Isma‘il had appointed as his own successor.

Proof #5: Earliest Shi‘i hadiths lack the mention of Twelve Imams but instead predict exactly the first eighteen Imams in the Isma‘ili lineage of Imamat.

Proof #6: With the exception of the Nizari Ismaili Imamat, all other Shi‘i Imamat lineages have hidden Imams. This contradicts the Qur’anic definition of Imamat which requires the Imam always be present and manifest (mubin) in the world.

Proof #7: Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni Aga Khan IV is the forty-ninth hereditary Imam of Shi‘i Islam in direct, documented, lineal descent from Mawlana Isma‘il ibn Ja‘far al-Sadiq. As the only present (hadir), manifest (mubin) and living (mawjud) hereditary Imam, with a documented and validated lineage, Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni’s very existence is itself confirmation of his Imamat and that of his ancestors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess this is where our faiths differ in ways. Jesus didn't appoint a successor, thus Christians are not divided on who to follow, 

I was expecting something more along the lines of alternate beliefs, contradicting doctrines, unauthorized practices. Something they do that Shia consider shirk, or haram.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

I guess this is where our faiths differ in ways. Jesus didn't appoint a successor, thus Christians are not divided on who to follow, 

I was expecting something more along the lines of alternate beliefs, contradicting doctrines, unauthorized practices. Something they do that Shia consider shirk, or haram.

If you research deeper into ismailis, you will find things of stranger nature.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ismailis are actually more related to us Alevis, as a fellow member mentioned, we read the Qur'an as Zahir and Batinni 

Did you know sunni islam is zoroastrain? Even Hanefi sunni was persian, hence the Zoroastrian practice.

Don't forget Shah Ismail also converted many into 12er and now the converts are calling Alevis and Ismailis kaffir even though they are seyyid and have been taught about the secrets of the universe 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

Ismailis are actually more related to us Alevis, as a fellow member mentioned, we read the Qur'an as Zahir and Batinni 

Did you know sunni islam is zoroastrain? Even Hanefi sunni was persian, hence the Zoroastrian practice.

Don't forget Shah Ismail also converted many into 12er and now the converts are calling Alevis and Ismailis kaffir even though they are seyyid and have been taught about the secrets of the universe 

How is Sunni Islam Zoroastrian, explain?

Who is Shah Ismail, ishe ismaili or what?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

Ismailis are actually more related to us Alevis, as a fellow member mentioned, we read the Qur'an as Zahir and Batinni 

Did you know sunni islam is zoroastrain? Even Hanefi sunni was persian, hence the Zoroastrian practice.

Don't forget Shah Ismail also converted many into 12er and now the converts are calling Alevis and Ismailis kaffir even though they are seyyid and have been taught about the secrets of the universe 

Kafir seems to get thrown around a lot before it even leaves the Islamic realm.I asked a fellow here once before about differences, all I knew was that he was different. This was his reply.

Quote

 

I will make it easy for you. Sunnis take Islam from companions and Shia from family of Prophet. Then came four Sunni Imams who taught Laws of Islam. Those who follow them are called Muqalid and wahabi ghair muqalid,they only follow Quran and Hadith.I am a Hanfi Muqulid and against the wahabis.In India,Hanfis were further divided into deobandis(shia haters)and barelvis(more tolerant and tomb worshippers of saints).

I am a deobandi but shia consider them as a wahabi and hate them.Deobandi hate barelvis. Both wahabi and deobandis hate shia and consider them kafirs. Barelvis love shias but hate wahabis and deobandis,Sound confusing right?And now you know why Muslims will blow each other up.,

I wish I could curse Muslims like you do Christians and not get banned from the shiachat.One thing Islam must learn from Christianity, how to tolerate criticism and coexist with others.

 

 

This did not make it easy on me. Same Quran, right? Same Pillars?

* I didn't curse anyone, just put a put a fellow in his place.

Nothing serious, unless you're really sensitive.

Edited by Son of Placid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Hashasheen217 said:

How is Sunni Islam Zoroastrian, explain?

Who is Shah Ismail, ishe ismaili or what?

Well their beliefs are similar, I have to explain it in Turkish though.

Did you know Hanefi was Persian?

Shah Ismail was the great leader of Aq Koyunlar, seyyid and Turkmen. 

He was the leader of iran/Azerbaijan.

Here is a Turkish professor explaining IrIr and how "namaz"  comes from Zoroastrian

I will try to translate later 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Kafir seems to get thrown around a lot before it even leaves the Islamic realm.I asked a fellow here once before about differences, all I knew was that he was different. This was his reply.

 

This did not make it easy on me. Same Quran, right? Same Pillars?

* I didn't curse anyone, just put a put a fellow in his place.

Nothing serious, unless you're really sensitive.

:salam:

That reply was a joke, seriously. The guy is a shia hating deobandi but wishes to curse muslims while learning tolerance from christians.

That does not make any sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, realizm said:

:salam:

That reply was a joke, seriously. The guy is a shia hating deobandi but wishes to curse muslims while learning tolerance from christians.

That does not make any sense.

I didn't say it made sense. Certainly not to me. I don't know half the groups he's talking about, but I don't think he meant it as a joke. Matter of fact, nothing he ever said was a joke. He was a troubled Deobandi because he didn't hate anybody as much as he was supposed to. Somebody with attitude finally made him pop and he got banned. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recent Posts on ShiaChat!

    • Neither am making "aggressive" claims nor I intend to do so. Didn't Imam Hussain(a.s) invited the entire Muslim nation as a whole?? If only 72 turned up that doesn't means that we always have to fight keeping our number less. Well I know this debate (call it anything) is not going to bear any fruit because we both are rigid on our opinions. So finish this over here. Go and unite with Modern day Akhbaris and continue the tampering of Shiism. I better unite with those who won't tamper Shiism at least (Sunnis).
    • I think it's important to give a gap between kids. I read somewhere that first two years are very important. Kids, who are abused or are neglected during first two years of life are less intelligent. These days we read so many news of mothers killing their own kids. I don't think they are criminals or murderers, I think they are just pressured into having kids and they don't receive any help, so they get stressed out or frustrated. It's hard for me to function if I don't get enough sleep for a day or two. Not getting enough sleep for months or years can drive you crazy. You are more likely to do a better job if you are able to spend more time on each kid.  I am not saying this about OP. I have seen a lot of people who are so loving towards kids but they are cruel with adults. It's crazy because if you are being mean to a kid's mother, it will have some effect on that kid, so you are hurting the kid. But some people become so kind when they are dealing with kids but they don't forgive the slightest weakness in the mother. At the end of the day, that kid will go home with the mother and she may take her frustration out on the kid intentionally or unintentionally. 
    • See, I'm not at all favouring akhbariyat but the comparison between Akhbaris and sunnis is clear cut. I'll be keeping a mile of distance from those who follow the one who oppressed Ahlulbait (ams). While what Akhbari says about those who do not recite shahadat e Salesa is not false but I have met hardcore WFers who says those who do not believe in wilayat-e-Faqih of Ayatullah Khamenei is not Shia. Problem is on both the sides. La'an is a part of tabarrah and the way of Ahlulbait (ams). This is a topic for some other day, some other thread. This has happened and is still happening. You are very naive or acting like one. No one's making anything. Stay some more time on SC and you'll yourself get to know those Shias of Mars. Why not consider same things for other Shia subsects. So you are uniting with sunnis because they are in majority. Interesting!. Gathering a vast number to fight enemies, Really? What have you learnt from Badr, Ohad.. Karbala? I'm not telling you to unite with Akhbaris or sunnis but if you want to united with anyone then subsects of shias are far better to get united than a sunni. I'm done. You can continue with polemics.
    • Modern Day Fake Akhbariyat.  Those who are enemies of Ulemas.   
    • Do you want me to unite with these kind of Akhbaris??  
×