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marry with transsexual

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2 minutes ago, certainclarity said:

Mutilation was not done. In the Hadith it mentioned,

 

It is very clear brother, all the sources are in the Farsi link.

It is mentioned in Wasil shia , and other books too. I am not making it up. You can check the sources for yourself. Just google.

Its not clear at all. When I search those names nothing comes up. 

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1 hour ago, Haydar Husayn said:

That may be your own personal definition, but out here in the rest of the world what you are referring to is a hermaphrodite. A transsexual is someone who believes that their biological gender doesn't match the gender they identify with in their mind (and this is again different from being a transvestite; i.e. dressing up like the opposite gender).

But yes, I agree. People should stay in school, and education is important.

 

Right. I didnt already know the difference between haemaphrodite and transvestite. That certainly taught me *thumbs up*

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33 minutes ago, certainclarity said:

Mutilation was not done. In the Hadith it mentioned, that imam Ali judged based on where did the person urinate from. From the male organ or female organ. When it was known that the person urinated from the male organ , the person was ordered to divorce the husband , and live like a man and he can get married. From that day onwards the person was considered a man.

For further information on the Hadith Google , preferably Farsi or Arabic books.

Alhamdulilah for ahlul bayt, we would have been destroyed without their wisdom.

 

It is very clear brother, all the sources are in the Farsi link.

It is mentioned in Wasil shia , and other books too. I am not making it up. You can check the sources for yourself. Just google.

I never mentioned a person who has two genders, as I said above I made a clear definition of what I consider a transgender person, did you not read?

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32 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

I never mentioned a person who has two genders, as I said above I made a clear definition of what I consider a transgender person, did you not read?

Sorry  if understood otherwise. Since you mentioned mutilation, I thought you were mentioning people with two genders.

If there are hormonal issues also which show up in excess facial hair, corrse voice, and the person identifies with the other sex alot more, surgeries are done, fully to  live a life of either gender and not end up being bisexual.This is not to be done out of sheer entertainment, and a deep medical history check is done before the procedure, if the person is applicable for such a change, in Iran.

These are permissble according to alot of Marjas .

This link explains more:

http://www.irjabs.com/files_site/paperlist/r_1748_131014223414.pdf

Edited by certainclarity

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9 hours ago, Ali al-Abdullah said:

How about the fact that those things are mentally ill ?

honestly I don't know , I never meet transgender in my life , so I don't know if they mental ill or really have some medical condition , I only read about them in news and wiki .

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9 minutes ago, sakura1994 said:

honestly I don't know , I never meet transgender in my life , so I don't know if they mental ill or really have some medical condition , I only read about them in news and wiki .

Of course they are mentally ill. Even many 'transgender' activists don't really deny that. Their argument is that even if it is a mental illness, what is the harm in allowing them to be what they want to be if it makes them feel better. By denying them the possibility 'treatment' (i.e. hormone therapy and surgery), they argue that they are condemned to a life of misery.

Of course, I don't agree with this argument, but it's what some of them say. Others just stick their heads in the sand and deny that it's a mental condition. For them the problem isn't with their mind, it's with their body. This is clearly insane. Some people have a condition that makes them think their limbs don't belong to them, and they want them cut off. I don't think anyone seriously doubts that is a mental condition.

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Drugs may affect a person's decision to undergo a transsexual lifestyle. I note this relation because prostitution is prevalent among many homosexual people here in San Francisco, CA; and sexually transmitted diseases are sometimes the result. "A 2009 report from the National Institutes of Health found that nearly a third of transgender Americans are HIV-positive," and many of these transgender people have often served prison or jail sentences (HIVPlus).

It is a result also of people being born with the feeling that they are a woman instead of a man, or man instead of a woman, because life's experiences are not in anyone's power but 'GOD-The Forbearing Master.' So, to judge a persons sexual preference is to judge their lives, which is the argument that Gay rights activists, and in some cases liberal politicians around the world are defending. " A staggering 90% of the 6,450 transgender people surveyed nationwide reported being the target of harassment, mistreatment, or discrimination at work (HIVPlus)." Discrimination and inequality in any shape or form is, in fact, wrong.

It is hard to believe that someone would accidentally marry a transsexual. It is a loaded question to begin with. But nonetheless, it is an individuals lifestyle, unless those individual barriers are broken. Which in many cases they are according to the above statistics, noted.

The Holy Quran obviously states that humans were created in pairs though. Men and Women, as pairs. So that is the, so called, mentality which we as Muslims must accept. No ifs, and's, or buts about it. 

 

Works Cited

Why Transgender Women Have the Country's Highest HIV Rates. HIV Plus Magazine. April 2nd, 2015. September 6th, 2016. <http://www.hivplusmag.com/case-studies/2013/04/08/invisible-women-why-transgender-women-are-hit-so-hard-hiv>.

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4 hours ago, Ali al-Abdullah said:

Still don't have proof of this thing attributed to Hazrat Imam Amir al-Mu'minin (as)

Probably you cant read or understand Farsi .

If you want to do yourself a favour and really want to know, contact the office of Seyed Khameni for this Hadith , as they take their ruling from this Hadith , plus you can ask more about their ruilings in regard to this matter.

You can copy paste the Farsi part along with the link, and send your query to their office.

With the Internet and time we have at our hands to create posts and chat, there is no excuse not to find out things for ourselves, by taking the extra effort to email various Islamic sites/ marjas for the Hadith and their ruling.

Edited by certainclarity

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15 minutes ago, certainclarity said:

 

If you want to do yourself a favour and really want to know, contact the office of Seyed Khameni for this Hadith , as they take their ruling from this Hadith , plus you can ask more about their ruilings in regard to this matter.

You can copy paste the Farsi part along with the link, and send your query to their office.

With the Internet and time we have at our hands to create posts and chat, there is no excuse not to find out things for ourselves, by taking the extra effort to email various Islamic sites/ marjas for the Hadith and their ruling.

Yes, but you are the one who said that this hadith exists, so, naturally shouldn't you give me proof? Btw I can understand Farsi but I can't read it 

Edited by Ali al-Abdullah

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6 minutes ago, Ali al-Abdullah said:

Yes, but you are the one who said that this hadith exists, so, naturally shouldn't you give me proof?

I already did brother, since you can't find it / read it,  In two links, Either you are not taking the time to read properly / can't read it or don't want to accept it.

Hence if you truly want to know ,You can contact them directly, to see the answer from their office right infront of your own eyes.

Then it will be up to you to accept it or reject it. My part is done.

I don't make up the ruilings, it is in Feqh and Hadith , and marjas are aware of it .

Contact your marja.

Edited by certainclarity

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33 minutes ago, certainclarity said:

I already did brother, since you can't find it / read it. In two links. Either you are not taking the time to read properly or don't want to accept it.

Hence if you truly want to know ,You can contact them directly, to see the answer from their office right infront of your own eyes.

Then it will be up to you to accept it or reject it. My part is done.

I don't make up the ruilings, it is in Feqh and Hadith , and marjas are aware of it .

Contact your marja.

Is it this one?

it is stated: Shoreyh judge
while the judge was present in the house, behold, a woman came into the house and told a judge! Judge between 
me and my enemy. Shoreyh it said. Who is your enemy? She told you! Shoreyh said: Way to let him through and 
he will enter Parliament. The judge said to him: What is a complaint? I said well what men are and what women are 
like! Shoreyh said Ali (AS) [in this case] will be judged on the basis of the urinary tract. He said my urethra and I 
both are both disconnected. Shoreyh said: I swear to God, I did not hear anything more surprising than this, she 
said, it is more surprising, said Shoreyh what is it? Said my husband had intercourse, she got out, and I got
intercourse with his slave and he brought me out guys! While it was extremely surprised Shoreyh hand on his arm, 
then Imam Ali (AS) and Shoreyh said: Ya Amir Al-Momani! I arrived on a surprise I did not hear it, and then her
story would suggest. Then Amir al-Momenin (AS) asked her about it, she said the same thing. Amir al-Momenin
(AS) said to him: Who is your husband? Said: X. Imam sent someone after him and called him and said: Do you 
know him? Yes, she is my wife. Then he had said what she had asked. He said it's the same. Amir al-Momenin
(AS) said to him: "You're braver than that is mounted on the valve because you are approaching the situation with 
him! Then Amir al-Momenin said: Ghanbar! The woman with another woman inside a pot to count his ribs. The 
woman's husband said: 'O Amir al-Momenin! I trust he will not know the man or woman. Amir al-Momenin (AS) 
said: Dinar eunuch (who was righteous and trusted Kufa) Bring it to me. The Prophet said: O Dinar! Get into a 
house with this woman and she's naked, and he commanded to give her ribs limp on one of his close. Dinar did it, 
the ribs until he was seventeen, and eight to the right nor to the left, hence, Amir al-Momenin (AS.), clothing and 
footwear, men’s’ wear his hat and cloak on the shoulder and to consider him among men. Husband said: Ya Amir
Al-Momenin! She is the daughter of my uncle's children; however, you can count him among men! He said: My
Lord sentence imposed on him was because God "Eve" of the left side, "man" created and (hence) the number of
defective gear for men and women transmission is complete. "(Vasael Al Shi, 576 / 17). Allama Majlesi (ra) Hadith 
 

 

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There really are people who are genetically one gender and physically the other. I suppose which gender they would actually be would depend on biochemistry.

If a Muslim has the parts of the wrong gender and gets corrective surgery, afterwards, he or she has as much right to marry as anyone else. It would be dishonest to hide this surgery from a prospective spouse, but certainly understandable given societal attitudes. It would only be wajib to tell a prospective spouse if the person is unable to produce or bear children.  

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2 hours ago, Ali al-Abdullah said:

Is it this one?

it is stated: Shoreyh judge
while the judge was present in the house, behold, a woman came into the house and told a judge! Judge between 
me and my enemy. Shoreyh it said. Who is your enemy? She told you! Shoreyh said: Way to let him through and 
he will enter Parliament. The judge said to him: What is a complaint? I said well what men are and what women are 
like! Shoreyh said Ali (AS) [in this case] will be judged on the basis of the urinary tract. He said my urethra and I 
both are both disconnected. Shoreyh said: I swear to God, I did not hear anything more surprising than this, she 
said, it is more surprising, said Shoreyh what is it? Said my husband had intercourse, she got out, and I got
intercourse with his slave and he brought me out guys! While it was extremely surprised Shoreyh hand on his arm, 
then Imam Ali (AS) and Shoreyh said: Ya Amir Al-Momani! I arrived on a surprise I did not hear it, and then her
story would suggest. Then Amir al-Momenin (AS) asked her about it, she said the same thing. Amir al-Momenin
(AS) said to him: Who is your husband? Said: X. Imam sent someone after him and called him and said: Do you 
know him? Yes, she is my wife. Then he had said what she had asked. He said it's the same. Amir al-Momenin
(AS) said to him: "You're braver than that is mounted on the valve because you are approaching the situation with 
him! Then Amir al-Momenin said: Ghanbar! The woman with another woman inside a pot to count his ribs. The 
woman's husband said: 'O Amir al-Momenin! I trust he will not know the man or woman. Amir al-Momenin (AS) 
said: Dinar eunuch (who was righteous and trusted Kufa) Bring it to me. The Prophet said: O Dinar! Get into a 
house with this woman and she's naked, and he commanded to give her ribs limp on one of his close. Dinar did it, 
the ribs until he was seventeen, and eight to the right nor to the left, hence, Amir al-Momenin (AS.), clothing and 
footwear, men’s’ wear his hat and cloak on the shoulder and to consider him among men. Husband said: Ya Amir
Al-Momenin! She is the daughter of my uncle's children; however, you can count him among men! He said: My
Lord sentence imposed on him was because God "Eve" of the left side, "man" created and (hence) the number of
defective gear for men and women transmission is complete. "(Vasael Al Shi, 576 / 17). Allama Majlesi (ra) Hadith 
 

 

Yes, marjas use this Hadith for gender change, as you can see from the link Seyed Khomeini also issued a fatwa on this , based on Feqh.

Unfortunately you cannot read Farsi, it would have been much easier to understand this Hadith as English translations are full of errors .

If you can't read Farsi/Arabic, DEFINITELY contact your marja/ or the marja that use this Hadith to permit such procedures.

Marja literally  means "REFERENCE" , and your best reference for matters of fiqh is the reference you choose to follow, so ask them.

I am simply refering to the Hadith ***they use,*** to allow such procedures, so if you would like to debate this matter best to take it to them.

Other wise what use is to follow a marja?

Edited by certainclarity

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1 hour ago, notme said:

There really are people who are genetically one gender and physically the other. I suppose which gender they would actually be would depend on biochemistry.

Can you give a source for this? If true, these cases would be exceedingly rare. The vast majority of transsexuals are genetically exactly what their (pre-op) appearance would indicate.

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4 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Can you give a source for this? If true, these cases would be exceedingly rare. The vast majority of transsexuals are genetically exactly what their (pre-op) appearance would indicate.

Well yes, I'm sure it's very rare and most modern transexuals are probably fake or deluded. But if the condition exists, it would be comparable to hermaphroditism and not anything jurisprudentially new. I read about the condition in a print textbook a long time ago when I took a sociology course. I'm not going to search for an online source right now. You can disregard my comment if you doubt it's accuracy. 

But if Islamic scholars in Iran are allowing gender corrective surgery, there must be something to it. 

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18 minutes ago, notme said:

Well yes, I'm sure it's very rare and most modern transexuals are probably fake or deluded. But if the condition exists, it would be comparable to hermaphroditism and not anything jurisprudentially new. I read about the condition in a print textbook a long time ago when I took a sociology course. I'm not going to search for an online source right now. You can disregard my comment if you doubt it's accuracy. 

But if Islamic scholars in Iran are allowing gender corrective surgery, there must be something to it. 

I studied genetics as part of my undergraduate degree in university. its actually really common (from a purely genetic standpoint) and difficult to identify than just looking at their dangly bits to determine what gender they are. 

http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

Quote

Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies). In addition, some males are born 46XX due to the translocation of a tiny section of the sex determining region of the Y chromosome. Similarly some females are also born 46XY due to mutations in the Y chromosome. Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex.

few births per thousand. not million. that means theres almost certainly at least one transsexual in every shia community on earth. 

I think members on the "herpyderp all transsexuals are going to hell" bandwagon need to take a minute to understand this. 

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2 hours ago, certainclarity said:

Yes, marjas use this Hadith for gender change, as you can see from the link Seyed Khomeini also issued a fatwa on this , based on Feqh.

Unfortunately you cannot read Farsi, it would have been much easier to understand this Hadith as English translations are full of errors .

If you can't read Farsi/Arabic, DEFINITELY contact your marja/ or the marja that use this Hadith to permit such procedures.

Marja literally  means "REFERENCE" , and your best reference for matters of fiqh is the reference you choose to follow, so ask them.

I am simply refering to the Hadith ***they use,*** to allow such procedures, so if you would like to debate this matter best to take it to them.

Other wise what use is to follow a marja?

Ok, but another thing, I can not find this hadith in Wasail al Shia, also do we know the chain of narrators of this hadith?

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1 hour ago, DigitalUmmah said:

I studied genetics as part of my undergraduate degree in university. its actually really common (from a purely genetic standpoint) and difficult to identify than just looking at their dangly bits to determine what gender they are. 

http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

few births per thousand. not million. that means theres almost certainly at least one transsexual in every shia community on earth. 

I think members on the "herpyderp all transsexuals are going to hell" bandwagon need to take a minute to understand this. 

You still don't seem to understand what a transsexual is. Everyone else is talking about males who choose to look like females (and vice-versa), and you are bringing up rare genetic conditions, that make someone intersex, not transsexual.

Quote

Many people confuse transgender and transsexual people with people with intersex conditions because they see two groups of people who would like to choose their own gender identity and sometimes those choices require hormonal treatments and/or surgery. These are similarities. It’s also true, albeit rare, that some people who have intersex conditions also decide to change genders at some point in their life, so some people with intersex conditions might also identify themselves as transgender or transsexual. 

In spite of these similarities, these two groups should not be and cannot be thought of as one. The truth is that the vast majority of people with intersex conditions identify as male or female rather than transgender or transsexual. Thus, where all people who identify as transgender or transsexual experience problems with their gender identity, only a small portion of intersex people experience these problems.

http://www.isna.org/faq/transgender

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