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Haydar Husayn

Do Catholics Worship Mary?

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Not sure if everyone has the same definition of "worship". My definition is the penultimate recognition and devotion to something above all other things, without an equal. By that definition, I don't believe Catholics "worship" Mary unless she's considered an undetachable part of God physical/spiritual essence himself.

Imagine God, the son of God, and mother of the son of God all part of a single unified, inseparable continuum. This thinking makes no sense to a Muslim, but maybe it does to others.

Edited by magma

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41 minutes ago, magma said:

Not sure if everyone has the same definition of "worship". My definition is the penultimate recognition and devotion to something above all other things, without an equal. By that definition, I don't believe Catholics "worship" Mary unless she's considered an undetachable part of God physical/spiritual essence himself.

Imagine God, the son of God, and mother of the son of God all part of a single unified, inseparable continuum. This thinking makes no sense to a Muslim, but maybe it does to others.

By this definition of worship, the pagan Arabs didn't worship their idols either, since they didn't consider them 'above all other things, without equal'. In fact, they freely admitted that Allah was above their idols.

And if you ask them, Who created the heavens and the earth and made the sun and the moon subservient, they will certainly say, Allah. Whence are they then turned away? [29:61]

Say: Who gives you sustenance from the heaven and the earth? Or Who controls the hearing and the sight? And Who brings forth the living from the dead, and brings forth the dead from the living? And Who regulates the affairs? Then they will say: Allah. Say then: Will you not then guard (against evil)? [10:31]

And should you ask them, Who created the heavens and the earth? They would most certainly say: Allah. Say: Have you then considered that what you call upon besides Allah, would they, if Allah desire to afflict me with harm, be the removers of His harm, or (would they), if Allah desire to show me mercy, be the withholders of His mercy? Say: Allah is sufficient for me; on Him do the reliant rely. [39:38]

And those whom they call upon besides Him have no authority for intercession, but he who bears witness of the truth and they know (him). And if you should ask them who created them, they would certainly say: Allah. Whence are they then turned back? [43:86-87]

 

Attempting to define worship in such a way that it can only apply to God is extremely problematic. It means that a person could perform the fact same acts of devotion towards God and someone else, but wouldn't be considered to be engaging in worship of other than God. In fact, such a strange definition of a set of actions, which then hinge completely on intention, has no advantage other than of allowing people to perform acts that look exactly like worship for other than God. Why would anyone want to do that in the first place?

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1 hour ago, Nataly said:

Personally the virgin mary made me many miracles when I was a child and I asked her for them. 

If believing that Mary is like equal to Jesus (intercesor to God and allowed to make miracles and get prays), but not God, just like the same position to the son; and make prays to her like the most well known that is hail mary; is worship, then yes, Mary is worshipped. 

Do you not believe Jesus is God?

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11 hours ago, andres said:

Interesting. I looked it up. It is called Tawassul. Seems very similar to Catholics praying to their Saints. Or what is different? 

Some day I would like to explore that more with them when I am not dealing with potential cultural and environmental crisis situations. 

:)

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46 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

By this definition of worship, the pagan Arabs didn't worship their idols either, since they didn't consider them 'above all other things, without equal'. In fact, they freely admitted that Allah was above their idols.

And if you ask them, Who created the heavens and the earth and made the sun and the moon subservient, they will certainly say, Allah. Whence are they then turned away? [29:61]

Say: Who gives you sustenance from the heaven and the earth? Or Who controls the hearing and the sight? And Who brings forth the living from the dead, and brings forth the dead from the living? And Who regulates the affairs? Then they will say: Allah. Say then: Will you not then guard (against evil)? [10:31]

And should you ask them, Who created the heavens and the earth? They would most certainly say: Allah. Say: Have you then considered that what you call upon besides Allah, would they, if Allah desire to afflict me with harm, be the removers of His harm, or (would they), if Allah desire to show me mercy, be the withholders of His mercy? Say: Allah is sufficient for me; on Him do the reliant rely. [39:38]

And those whom they call upon besides Him have no authority for intercession, but he who bears witness of the truth and they know (him). And if you should ask them who created them, they would certainly say: Allah. Whence are they then turned back? [43:86-87]

 

Attempting to define worship in such a way that it can only apply to God is extremely problematic. It means that a person could perform the fact same acts of devotion towards God and someone else, but wouldn't be considered to be engaging in worship of other than God. In fact, such a strange definition of a set of actions, which then hinge completely on intention, has no advantage other than of allowing people to perform acts that look exactly like worship for other than God. Why would anyone want to do that in the first place?

Whats your definition of worship?

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1 hour ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Attempting to define worship in such a way that it can only apply to God is extremely problematic. It means that a person could perform the fact same acts of devotion towards God and someone else, but wouldn't be considered to be engaging in worship of other than God. In fact, such a strange definition of a set of actions, which then hinge completely on intention, has no advantage other than of allowing people to perform acts that look exactly like worship for other than God. Why would anyone want to do that in the first place?

But this is a complicated subject indeed, I still have to think about it. 

Edited by magma

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13 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Some day I would like to explore that more with them when I am not dealing with potential cultural and environmental crisis situations. 

 

Some Muslims regard Muhammed a Muslim Saint. Wikipedia has this info on Tawassul.

The Qur'an states:

If, when they had wronged themselves, they had come to you, and asked forgiveness from God, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found God Relenting, Merciful.

— Al-Qur'an, Surah an-Nisa, 4:64

This verse raised the question as to whether or not Muhammad’s mediation was still possible after his death. A number of Islamic scholars including Al-Nawawi, Ibn Kathir and Ibn al-Athir in his exegesis relates the following episode, aiming to demonstrate its effectiveness:

A Bedouin of the desert visited the Prophet’s tomb and greeted the Prophet, addressing him directly as if he were alive. “Peace upon you, Messenger of God!” Then he said, “I heard the word of God ‘If, when they had wronged themselves . . .,’ I came to you seeking pardon for my mistakes, longing for your intercession with our Lord!” The Bedouin then recited a poem in praise of the Prophet and departed. The person who witnessed the story says that he fell asleep, and in a dream he saw the Prophet saying to him, “O ‘Utbi, rejoin our brother the Bedouin and announce [to] him the good news that God has pardoned him!”[8][9][10]

 

I have tried to find out why Catholics believe in Saints. There are some references to Revelation, but I do not find it convincing. Has Jesus said anything in non-canonic Gospels? Or did I miss anything in the 4 in NT?

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Quote

 

Pontiff Puts World in Mary’s Hands

Benedict XVI placed the world in Mary’s hands during his one-day visit to the shrine of Our Lady of the Rosary in Pompeii, near Naples.

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

In a gesture of filial love, the Pope then offered the Madonna a golden rose.

...

The shrine contains an image of Mary to which hundreds of miracles and healings are attributed.

 

https://zenit.org/articles/pontiff-puts-world-in-mary-s-hands/

 

So the (former) Pope goes to a shrine to Mary (which contains an image of her), prays to her to to have pity on the world, so that they may repent and return to her, says that she is their only hope and is that the world is in need of her protection, and gives an offering to that shrine, and we are supposed to think that this isn't worship? I have to ask, if these aren't acts of worship, then what are?!

Oh, yeah, and lest I be accused of deliberately misleading people, he also added the standard 'this is all a path to God (or Jesus, in this case)' disclaimer: "The secret of Pompeii, the Holy Father revealed, is the rosary: “This prayer leads us through Mary to Jesus.”"

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On 06/09/2016 at 10:15 AM, andres said:

Catholics definitely would say they do not worship Mary as a deity. As a Lutheran I also say they dont, thou I find the idea of Saints unbiblical. As I understand the Quran, Muhammed say Christian do worship Mary. I can actually understand if Muslims or others may have this impression.

 

Since you are a Lutheran, you might be interested in knowing what Luther thought of the matter:

Quote

"Furthermore, how will you endure [the Romanists'] terrible idolatries? It was not enough that they venerated the saints and praised God in them, but they actually made them into gods. They put that noble child, the mother Mary, right into the place of Christ. They fashioned Christ into a judge and thus devised a tyrant for anguished consciences, so that all comfort and confidence was transferred from Christ to Mary, and then everyone turned from Christ to his particular saint. Can anyone deny this? Is it not true?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther's_Marian_theology#Comparison_to_Roman_Catholic_views

So Luther outright said that Catholics made Mary and other Saints into gods. Maybe he was also being mislead by reading the Qur'an?

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It does seem that there has historically been some excessive veneration of Mary and other saints, but worship of Mary is definitely not present day Catholic doctrine and probably wasn't doctrine at any time, though it clearly was tolerated.

You gotta understand, they were trying to convert the European pagans who had many gods and goddesses. Something had to fill the void. Saints and bishops who wrote these supplications are not considered to be infallible, and never have been. 

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2 minutes ago, notme said:

It does seem that there has historically been some excessive veneration of Mary and other saints, but worship of Mary is definitely not present day Catholic doctrine and probably wasn't doctrine at any time, though it clearly was tolerated.

You gotta understand, they were trying to convert the European pagans who had many gods and goddesses. Something had to fill the void. Saints and bishops who wrote these supplications are not considered to be infallible, and never have been. 

I think it's obvious that there will never be a Catholic doctrine that explicitly endorses 'worship' of Mary, for obvious reasons. That doesn't prevent many Catholics, including the Pope himself, clearly worshipping Mary though. Or would you not consider what the Pope did to be worship? And Luther, who had been a Catholic monk, coming from a milieu of veneration of Mary (which he himself never completely let go of), clearly says that Catholics of his day had turned her into a goddess.

 

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2 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

I think it's obvious that there will never be a Catholic doctrine that explicitly endorses 'worship' of Mary, for obvious reasons. That doesn't prevent many Catholics, including the Pope himself, clearly worshipping Mary though. Or would you not consider what the Pope did to be worship? And Luther, who had been a Catholic monk, coming from a milieu of veneration of Mary (which he himself never completely let go of), clearly says that Catholics of his day had turned her into a goddess.

 

Luther was a monk and would know Catholics did not believe Mary was a Godess. His rethoric against veneration of saints (and other catholic traditions) was heavy. A pope certainly also would know. This would be totally against the Bible, and you are not Christian if you believe so. Even if Luther condemned catholisism, I do not think he regarded catholics as non-christians.

If I may say so, Muhammed is an Islamic Saint. But there is no way to determine if there are people that believe he is divine, unless they admit they do. And if they do, they are not Muslims. 

If there existed a sect in Muhammeds syrrounding that believed Mary was a Godess, they were not christians, and his critisism was not against christians or the Bible.

Edited by andres

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1 minute ago, andres said:

Luther was a monk and would know Catholics did not believe Mary was a Godess. His rethoric against veneration of saints (and other catholic traditions) was heavy. A pope certainly also would know. This would be totally against the Bible, and you are not Christian if you believe so. Even if Luther condemned catholisism, I do not think he regarded catholics as non-christians.

Let me quote him again:

"Furthermore, how will you endure [the Romanists'] terrible idolatries? It was not enough that they venerated the saints and praised God in them, but they actually made them into gods. They put that noble child, the mother Mary, right into the place of Christ. They fashioned Christ into a judge and thus devised a tyrant for anguished consciences, so that all comfort and confidence was transferred from Christ to Mary, and then everyone turned from Christ to his particular saint. Can anyone deny this? Is it not true?"

Please tell me how you understand this other than what it says. It's amazing the mental gymnastics some people will do to avoid the obvious.

 

1 minute ago, andres said:

If I may say so, Muhammed is an Islamic Saint. But there is no way to determine if there are people that believe he is divine, unless they admit they do. And if they do, they are not Muslims. 

What do you mean by 'divine'? Does believing someone is created from divine light, is all-seeing, all-hearing, all-knowing, and all-powerful (but not independent of God) count? If so, then yes, there are plenty of Muslims willing to sign up to that (although most of them wouldn't like to use that wording).

There are Muslims that worship the Prophet (s), and others (mainly others), but of course they wouldn't admit that this is what they do. It's obvious that when your religion clearly prohibits you from worshiping other than God, then you are never going to admit to doing so. However, many people's hearts incline towards doing this, so what they do is construct a framework in which they can perform acts of devotion and worship that would normally be reserved for a deity, without officially putting themselves outside of their own religion. So for example, they will restrict their definition of worship to only be possible towards God, so that by definition they cannot be engaging in idol-worship! This is very convenient, but intellectually and spiritually bankrupt.

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17 minutes ago, andres said:

If there existed a sect in Muhammeds syrrounding that believed Mary was a Godess, they were not christians, and his critisism was not against christians or the Bible.

But did they call themselves Christian? Are Mormons Christan? They certainly think they are! They believe that men and women can become gods and goddesses, in addition to believing in God, Jesus, and The Holy Spirit. If Mormons consider themselves to be Christian, how is it infeasible that people who deify Mary "mother of god" would also call themselves Christian? 

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On 9/8/2016 at 3:40 PM, andres said:

Are you saying that the Christian Church in the times of Muhammed, accepted the belief that Mary was a Godess?

Are you under the impression that there was a single Christian Church in the time of Muhammad (s), or that there is one now? And who gets to define what the 'true' Christian Church is?

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30 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Let me quote him again:

"Furthermore, how will you endure [the Romanists'] terrible idolatries? It was not enough that they venerated the saints and praised God in them, but they actually made them into gods. They put that noble child, the mother Mary, right into the place of Christ. They fashioned Christ into a judge and thus devised a tyrant for anguished consciences, so that all comfort and confidence was transferred from Christ to Mary, and then everyone turned from Christ to his particular saint. Can anyone deny this? Is it not true?"

Please tell me how you understand this other than what it says. It's amazing the mental gymnastics some people will do to avoid the obvious.

 

What do you mean by 'divine'? Does believing someone is created from divine light, is all-seeing, all-hearing, all-knowing, and all-powerful (but not independent of God) count? If so, then yes, there are plenty of Muslims willing to sign up to that (although most of them wouldn't like to use that wording).

There are Muslims that worship the Prophet (s), and others (mainly others), but of course they wouldn't admit that this is what they do. It's obvious that when your religion clearly prohibits you from worshiping other than God, then you are never going to admit to doing so. However, many people's hearts incline towards doing this, so what they do is construct a framework in which they can perform acts of devotion and worship that would normally be reserved for a deity, without officially putting themselves outside of their own religion. So for example, they will restrict their definition of worship to only be possible towards God, so that by definition they cannot be engaging in idol-worship! This is very convenient, but intellectually and spiritually bankrupt.

By divine I mean a God. Jesus and God are Gods. Mary is not. 

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13 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Are you under the impression that there was a single Christian Church in the time of Muhammad (s), or that there is one now? And who gets to define what the 'true' Christian Church is?

The Bible defines a Christian. The Quran defines Islam. Mary as a Godess is not Christian belief in the same way as Muhammed is not Islamic belief.

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Just now, andres said:

By divine I mean a God. Jesus and God are Gods. Mary is not. 

So you have several gods? Doesn't the Bible say there is only one?

Can you define for me what you understand a god to be?

And I notice that for a second time you haven't addressed the quote by Martin Luther.

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 Christian dogma is called trinity. Trinity seems unlogical to me and I do not mind if you believe this is polytheism. But Christian belief is that God and Jesus are Gods. Mary is not.

 

I am not able to define what God is, or exactly what the relation between God and Jesus is.

 

If Luther believe that Catholic belief is that Mary is a Godess, he is wrong. Personally I think the quote is political rethoric against the catholic church. 

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3 minutes ago, andres said:

The Bible defines a Christian. The Quran defines Islam. Mary as a Godess is not Christian belief in the same way as Muhammed is not Islamic belief.

Catholics don't believe in Sola Scriptura, so the Bible doesn't define what Christianity is for them. Is the Ascension of Mary in the Bible? No, but it's dogma for Catholics, which means it is a necessary belief in their Church.

Saying 'the Bible defines a Christian' is absurdly simplistic, as you know that people you would yourself accept as Christians disagree about all sorts of things, including both beliefs that are in the Bible, and those that aren't.

I have also never claimed that Catholics regard Mary as a Goddess, at least not in the formal sense. However, they do have beliefs about her that would be consistent with being a goddess. More importantly, many do worship her. You don't need to consider her co-equal with God to worship her.

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40 minutes ago, notme said:

But did they call themselves Christian? Are Mormons Christan? They certainly think they are! They believe that men and women can become gods and goddesses, in addition to believing in God, Jesus, and The Holy Spirit. If Mormons consider themselves to be Christian, how is it infeasible that people who deify Mary "mother of god" would also call themselves Christian? 

Is ISIS Islam because they say they are?

If Muhammed critisised Christians that believed Mary was a Godess, he and those "Christians" knew not what the Bible said.

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1 minute ago, andres said:

Is ISIS Islam because they say they are?

If Muhammed critisised Christians that believed Mary was a Godess, he and those "Christians" knew not what the Bible said.

Not that it matters much, because your argument is so ridiculous, but the Qur'an doesn't say that 'Christians' believe this. It just says that there are people that take Jesus and Mary as deities. And there are reports that the pagan Arabs kept pictures of Jesus and Mary in the Kaaba. So if nothing else, it could be talking about this. Now, can we get back to the topic of the thread, instead of dealing with your red-herrings?

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1 hour ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Not that it matters much, because your argument is so ridiculous, but the Qur'an doesn't say that 'Christians' believe this. It just says that there are people that take Jesus and Mary as deities. And there are reports that the pagan Arabs kept pictures of Jesus and Mary in the Kaaba. So if nothing else, it could be talking about this. Now, can we get back to the topic of the thread, instead of dealing with your red-herrings?

I agree. The Quran does not say the Christians believe Mary is a Godess. It could be Pagan Arabs had her picture in the Kaaba. They had many Gods.

And if the Quran thougt they were Christians, the Quran would be wrong. I know this is not an option for you, but it is for me. End of discussion.

 

Has the topic of this thread not also been covered.?

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