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Haydar Husayn

Do Catholics Worship Mary?

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2 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

The Qur'an also shows an in depth knowledge of the Biblical stories of Prophets, although the narrative does differ at certain points, in ways that often seem more logical than in the Bible.

If I retell a long mythical story that I heard someone else recite, my story would differ slightly. And yes, retold stories can be more or less logical than the original.

But of course, if Muhammeds revelation is correctly written down, and he remembered exactly what the Angel said, and the Angel got the message from God, the stories in the Quran are the correct ones.

Edited by andres

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from: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/saint-worship

"................Unfortunately, many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics "worship" Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call "worship"—is to be given only to God........"

Edited by andres

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3 hours ago, andres said:

from: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/saint-worship

"................Unfortunately, many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions.

Salam Andres,

it is not hostility to disagree with people's beliefs that are different than one's own. I have Catholic friends who I consider my sisters and brothers in Christ, and they consider me a sister in Christ. My former landlady is a very strong Catholic lady who brought her priest over once to pray for me when I was sick. I'm very grateful. :) My sister works for a Catholic hospital and gets along wonderfully with Catholics who know she is a Protestant.

Many Non-Catholics are not hostile to either Catholics or the church, though we disagree with Catholic doctrines. Similarly, many Catholics are not hostile to Non-Catholics. Both groups have learned to live peacefully and lovingly with each other, despite our disagreements.

Quote

They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics "worship" Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call "worship"—is to be given only to God........"

Again, praying prayers that praise Mary to Mary sounds like worship to many Non-Catholics. Of course Catholics are free to disagree with Non-Catholics, and Non-Catholics are free to disagree with Catholics.

Out of curiosity, is there anywhere in the Bible where praying to Mary or to a saint is encouraged? Thanks.

Peace and God bless you

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1 hour ago, Christianlady said:

Salam Andres,

it is not hostility to disagree with people's beliefs that are different than one's own. I have Catholic friends who I consider my sisters and brothers in Christ, and they consider me a sister in Christ. My former landlady is a very strong Catholic lady who brought her priest over once to pray for me when I was sick. I'm very grateful. :) My sister works for a Catholic hospital and gets along wonderfully with Catholics who know she is a Protestant.

Many Non-Catholics are not hostile to either Catholics or the church, though we disagree with Catholic doctrines. Similarly, many Catholics are not hostile to Non-Catholics. Both groups have learned to live peacefully and lovingly with each other, despite our disagreements.

Again, praying prayers that praise Mary to Mary sounds like worship to many Non-Catholics. Of course Catholics are free to disagree with Non-Catholics, and Non-Catholics are free to disagree with Catholics.

Out of curiosity, is there anywhere in the Bible where praying to Mary or to a saint is encouraged? Thanks.

Peace and God bless you

I am a Lutheran myself and do not believe in Saints, so you have to ask a Catholic why they do. I reacted agains unfair claims that Catholics worship Mary. This was the reason for pasting info from www.catholic.com

I find the link interesting, but it has not made me change my view that Saints do not exist. However there is no reason to accuse Catholics for lying about their relation with Saints. A nasty accusation.

 

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10 hours ago, andres said:

from: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/saint-worship

"................Unfortunately, many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics "worship" Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call "worship"—is to be given only to God........"

And functionally what is the difference between their 'latria' of God, and their 'hyperdulia' of Mary? Because I don't see much. Most, if not all, of the functions of Jesus (i.e. God, in Trinitarian Christianity) have been given to Mary.

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7 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Salam Andres,

it is not hostility to disagree with people's beliefs that are different than one's own. I have Catholic friends who I consider my sisters and brothers in Christ, and they consider me a sister in Christ. My former landlady is a very strong Catholic lady who brought her priest over once to pray for me when I was sick. I'm very grateful. :) My sister works for a Catholic hospital and gets along wonderfully with Catholics who know she is a Protestant.

How do you respond to those who quote what Paul says in Galatians 1?

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

 

Do you think the Catholic Church preaches the same Gospel as Paul?

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13 hours ago, andres said:

Catholics believe Mary is already in heaven being a Saint among very many other Saints, but probably the most honored. They are not worshipped as Gods. Persons that worship Saints as Gods are not Catholic. Period. It may seem so to non catholics, but only ignorants believe they do.

You either don't know what you are talking about, or are lying. Mary is not simply one among very many, and 'probably' the most honored. Mother of God, Queen of Heaven, Mother of the ChurchMediatrixCo-Redemptrix (with Christ), immaculately conceived, assumed into Heaven... Yeah, she really sounds like a run-of-the-mill Saint...

 

Quote

You say "many Catholics are in denial of the fact that they worship Mary". Why not all of them? If only a part, this would be a great problem within the Church. Are there any such reports? 

I said many because clearly not all Catholics necessarily worship Mary.

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13 hours ago, andres said:

In my Quran in 5:116. I am sure you knew I would refer to this. Who would claime that Jesus had said this if not Christians? Muhammed  regarded Christianity as a polotheistic religion, and here he mentions Mary and Jesus being worshipped as Gods. If he had the Christian Church in mind, he was right about Jesus, but wrong about Mary. If I am not mistaken Muhammed somewhere says something like "dont say three", which indicats he knew about trinity. But of course, in 5:116 maybe he had not trinity in mind, but a small isolated sect that existed in Mekka, maybe even extinct centuries before Muhammed was born. However in my view , a protest against a mighty Christian polytheistic  Churchs trinity 

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. [5:116]

Please tell me where you are getting a reference to the Trinity out of this. The fact that the Qur'an claims that some people worship Mary, and elsewhere warns against the concept of the Trinity, don't imply that Mary was thought to be part of that Trinity.

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11 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities ?

...............

Please tell me where you are getting a reference to the Trinity out of this. The fact that the Qur'an claims that some people worship Mary, and elsewhere warns against the concept of the Trinity, don't imply that Mary was thought to be part of that Trinity.

Why will Allah ask Jesus this question? Someone must have claimed Jesus said so. It is not the Bible. Christians, Muslims and Jews do not say so either. So who was it? Or did Muhammed believe that this was Christian belief? 

Of course I cannot know for certain, but I find it most likely that the Quran here critisises Christianity. Why spend time critisising a small, maybe already at that time extinct sect, somewhere in the Arabian peninsular desert?

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12 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

You either don't know what you are talking about, or are lying. Mary is not simply one among very many, and 'probably' the most honored. Mother of God, Queen of Heaven, Mother of the ChurchMediatrixCo-Redemptrix (with Christ), immaculately conceived, assumed into Heaven... Yeah, she really sounds like a run-of-the-mill Saint...

 

I said many because clearly not all Catholics necessarily worship Mary.

According to www.catholic.org , Mary is a Saint of "higher status" than others, but still not a deity. I feel convinced that the site is an official catholic site, so I do not question this belief is true Catholic.

I am Lutheran, never having attended Catholic mass or spoken to a Catholic priest. I do not share this belief, but it is my impression that all Catholics share this belief. Dont trust me as an authority.

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12 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

How do you respond to those who quote what Paul says in Galatians 1?

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

 

Do you think the Catholic Church preaches the same Gospel as Paul?

Yes I think so. All Christians do, but just like in Islam, we differ when it comes to interpretation.

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12 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

And functionally what is the difference between their 'latria' of God, and their 'hyperdulia' of Mary? Because I don't see much. Most, if not all, of the functions of Jesus (i.e. God, in Trinitarian Christianity) have been given to Mary.

I have never heard these words before so if yo wish to penetrate the subject you must find someone else. I can only provide you with this paste from www.catholic.org: 

 

"As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship—in other words, the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (Matt. 10:41b). A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = "beyond dulia"), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is more than the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but still of the same kind. However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator."

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Is anyone in this conversation actually Catholic? It might be more productive to wait for an actual Catholic to come along and explain their beliefs and doctrines, rather than debate based on protestant speculation. The current conversation is as if Christians and Sunni Muslims were discussing doctrines of Shia Islam. It doesn't make sense.

I know @LeftCoastMom is very busy these days and might not be available to answer. Are there any other Catholic active forum participants? 

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1 hour ago, notme said:

Is anyone in this conversation actually Catholic? It might be more productive to wait for an actual Catholic to come along and explain their beliefs and doctrines, rather than debate based on protestant speculation. The current conversation is as if Christians and Sunni Muslims were discussing doctrines of Shia Islam. It doesn't make sense.

I know @LeftCoastMom is very busy these days and might not be available to answer. Are there any other Catholic active forum participants? 

Good idea. If LCM has not got the time, Haydar and other interested can write to the Catholic church and ask.

Edited by andres

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42 minutes ago, andres said:

Good idea. If LCM has not got the time, Haydar and other interested can write to the Catholic church and ask.

I know we have other Catholic site members. I just don't know if any are active nowadays. 

I was raised Catholic, but never pursued knowledge beyond the level of what they teach teens in Sunday school. 

We were taught to honor Mary, to ask for her intercession, but that prayer in the op certainly does appear to cross the line into worship. The fact that the writer was beatified makes it appear that at least at that time the Church accepted if not supported his beliefs. It's different from what I was taught, but maybe others learned different things. I don't feel expert enough to give a good Catholic viewpoint. 

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1 hour ago, notme said:

I know we have other Catholic site members. I just don't know if any are active nowadays. 

I was raised Catholic, but never pursued knowledge beyond the level of what they teach teens in Sunday school. 

We were taught to honor Mary, to ask for her intercession, but that prayer in the op certainly does appear to cross the line into worship. The fact that the writer was beatified makes it appear that at least at that time the Church accepted if not supported his beliefs. It's different from what I was taught, but maybe others learned different things. I don't feel expert enough to give a good Catholic viewpoint. 

Are you saying that the Christian Church in the times of Muhammed, accepted the belief that Mary was a Godess?

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26 minutes ago, andres said:

Are you saying that the Christian Church in the times of Muhammed, accepted the belief that Mary was a Godess?

No, I'm saying that the prayer in the OP looks like worship, and the writer of the prayer is a Catholic saint. That seems a good reason to ask a knowledgeable Catholic to clarify, don't you think? 

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17 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

How do you respond to those who quote what Paul says in Galatians 1?

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

Salam Haydar Husain,

The Gospel is the Good News of Jesus Christ: what He taught and did for us, including his suffering, death, and resurrection from the dead, as well as his future return.

The Catholic Church does not negate Jesus Christ's death and resurrection.

Quote

Do you think the Catholic Church preaches the same Gospel as Paul?

Yes. The main issue for Protestants however is the additional doctrines that the Catholic Church believes. For example, neither Jesus Christ, no his chosen apostles, nor Paul commanded to pray to Mary.

There is no evidence as far as I know in the Bible of people praying to Mary. Now, there is indeed evidence of Jesus listening to his Mom, so maybe that's why some Catholics pray to Mary?

On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”

 Woman,[a] why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”

5His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.[b]

Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim. - John 2:1-7 (NIV)

Personally, I believe Jesus called his mother "Woman" and not "mother of God" for a reason. He called other women "Woman" too  Woman is not an insulting word, but it does show that he considers his Mom a "woman" same as he considers this woman a "woman"

Now he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath. And behold, there was a woman who had had a disabling spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not fully straighten herself. When Jesus saw her, he called her over and said to her, “Woman, you are freed from your disability.- Luke 13:10-12 (NIV)

The view of many Protestants is that only God hears prayers. Since we believe that Jesus is God incarnate, we have no problem praying to Jesus as well as to our Father in Heaven. 

If Jesus had wanted people to pray to his Mom, then he would have taught us to. Jesus did teach us to pray to our "Father in Heaven" There are some Christians who will just pray to our Father in Heaven, though other Christians like myself do interpret this to mean we can pray to Jesus too:

Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me[e] anything in my name, I will do it. - John 14:13-14 (NIV)

Please note that Jesus does not mention praying to Mary or any saint.

Anyways, most Protestants nowadays don't think that the Catholic Church preaches another Gospel. We just believe differently in different areas, yet both Catholics and Protestants believe that Jesus Christ suffered, died on the cross, rose from the dead, and will return someday!!!

Peace and God bless you

 

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58 minutes ago, notme said:

No, I'm saying that the prayer in the OP looks like worship, and the writer of the prayer is a Catholic saint. That seems a good reason to ask a knowledgeable Catholic to clarify, don't you think? 

I did not know what "op" was. Thought it was a spelling error. If I guess it means "opening post", it gives meaning. And yes, non-catholics (myself inclusive) could easily mistake this for worshipping a Virgin-Mary Godess. If so, it would be in stark contrast to the Bible, and not a Christian text. 

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No, we don't worship Mary. Christ is the only redeemer. This " co-redemptrix" stuff keeps getting shot down by the theologians. The last time I remember it even being discussed was in the 90's. Even Pope Benedict  said it was a bad idea.

Hope this helps.

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5 hours ago, notme said:

Is anyone in this conversation actually Catholic? It might be more productive to wait for an actual Catholic to come along and explain their beliefs and doctrines, rather than debate based on protestant speculation. The current conversation is as if Christians and Sunni Muslims were discussing doctrines of Shia Islam. It doesn't make sense.

I know @LeftCoastMom is very busy these days and might not be available to answer. Are there any other Catholic active forum participants? 

Had to come in here to check on possible messages. As far as I can tell from some private conversations, seems like the Shia have similar feelings about asking intercession from their holy folks  and some groups might accuse them of " worshipping" someone other than God.  (In fact, they do accuse them of that.)

Looks can be deceiving.

But I'm not  Shia, so that's a ball-park guess.

Edited by LeftCoastMom

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16 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Had to come in here to check on possible messages. As far as I can tell from some private conversations, seems like the Shia have similar feelings about asking intercession from their holy folks  and some groups might accuse them of " worshipping" someone other than God.  (In fact, they do accuse them of that.)

Looks can be deceiving.

But I'm not  Shia, so that's a ball-park guess.

Interesting. I looked it up. It is called Tawassul. Seems very similar to Catholics praying to their Saints. Or what is different? 

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18 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

The prayer that kicked all of this off is not part of the Liturgy nor have I heard it recited at all that I can remember. Saints are humans. Sometimes they went a little overboard,IMHO, in their devotions to...whatever.

Doesn't make it dogma.

Thanks for clearing that up. I thought so, but as a non-Catholic, I wasn't certain. 

 

 

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Personally the virgin mary made me many miracles when I was a child and I asked her for them. 

If believing that Mary is like equal to Jesus (intercesor to God and allowed to make miracles and get prays), but not God, just like the same position to the son; and make prays to her like the most well known that is hail mary; is worship, then yes, Mary is worshipped. 

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