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Fulfilling Prophecies to Israel

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1 hour ago, andres said:

Hi onereligion

You are right, it is obvious that Jesus was not world famous when he had his mission. But 50 years after the crucifixion, when the 4 Gospels were written, he was. I also agree Old Testament prophesies are very dizzy and can be interpreted to fit your own ideas. 

 

Hello Andres,

I see your point as well.  At the end of the day, I believe religion has to be logical yet there are areas that fall under spirituality.  Areas that can only be experienced, not understood or reproduced (if that is the right word).  For Christians and Muslims, Jesus (as) was the Messiah, irrespective of what the Old Testament may (or may not) say.  Therefore, we should not try to force and fit Jesus (as) in every Biblical prophecy when he does not belong there.

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On 8 September 2016 at 3:06 PM, Christianlady said:

Others think it's a spiritual gathering. Regardless, whatever God promises always happens!!!

So how do you explain the diaspora?

And what does that tell is about the nature of God's promise to the Israelites?

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1 hour ago, Haji 2003 said:

So how do you explain the diaspora?

And what does that tell is about the nature of God's promise to the Israelites?

As I remember Gods promise was only valid as long as the Jews did not turn to other Gods. The Old Testament tells us Jews now and then did. Archeology also support this. But you are right. Jews have only ruled a land of their own for a couple of centuries througout history.

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23 hours ago, onereligion said:

Walaykum as salaam wa rahmatullah,In order to reciprocate to your contribution in one of the Shia-Sunni discussions, I will comment on this

Salam Onereligion,

Waalam :)

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in the light of other (mis)interpretations I have read from you.

You are of course entitled to your opinions and beliefs, same everyone else is, including me.

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Isaiah 53 is often (mis)quoted in favor of Jesus (as). 

Many Jewish people who do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah agree with you.
 

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Let us read the verses discarded, the verse prior to chapter 53.

"So will many nations be amazed at him and kings will shut their mouths because of him". (Isaiah 52:15)

The nations will be amazed and the kings speechless?  Really?  Jesus (as) was not world-renowned during his lifetime. 

 

Yes, really.  Do you believe that Jesus will return? When Jesus returns, you don't believe that many nations will be amazed at him and kings (and other types of political leaders) will shut their mouths because of him?

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As I read somewhere, we have evidence of his followers from historians such as Josephus, Tacitus, and Suetonius but nothing from prolific authors such as Philo of Alexandria, Seneca, and Pliny the Elder.  In other words, Jesus (as) was not as famous as the prophecy you have shared.

Again, do you believe Jesus will return? If not, why do you believe many Muslims believe Jesus will return?

 

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Furthermore, Isaiah 53:10 says, "he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand" and we know that Jesus (as) - according to the Bible - started his ministry at 30 and preached for 3 years.  Certainly, he did not see "his offspring" and his days were not prolonged by any stretch of imagination.

You don't believe that when Jesus returns, his "days" won't be prolonged? Many Muslims believe that Jesus will have kids, but I personally believe that Jesus is talking about spiritual children, not physical children.

The reason is because Jesus calls some people sons and daughters. For example: (I boldened some.)
Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.” - Matthew 9:2 (NIV)

Just then a woman who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak. She said to herself, “If I only touch his cloak, I will be healed.”

Jesus turned and saw her. Take heart, daughter,” he said, “your faith has healed you.” And the woman was healed at that moment. - Matthew 9:20-22 (NIV)

As apostle John noted, Jesus gave people "the right to become children of God":

 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. - John 1:12-13 (NIV)

This is also in fulfillment of Isaiah 8:18

Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me shall be for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, who dwelleth in mount Zion.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1008.htm

The author of Hebrews refers to Isaiah 8:18 in Hebrews chapter 2

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On 9/26/2016 at 10:35 PM, onereligion said:

Furthermore, Isaiah 53:10 says, "he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand" and we know that Jesus (as) - according to the Bible - started his ministry at 30 and preached for 3 years.  Certainly, he did not see "his offspring" and his days were not prolonged by any stretch of imagination.

Sorry, my hubby was talking with me and I forgot to answer the rest. :)

Annyways, when Jesus Christ returns, he will see his "offspring" and his days will be prolonged. Many Muslims and Christians believe this, though many Muslims believe Jesus will marry and have children, whereas many Christians believe that we are the spiritual children of God via Jesus Christ. After all, Jesus did teach his followers that God is our Father in Heaven!!! :)

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Verse 11 in Isaiah 53 refers to this person as "my righteous servant".  But isn't the whole point of Trinity that God is 1 in 3 and 3 in 1 and that these 3 are 1.  If that is the case, how can Jesus (as) (or Son god) be the "righteous servant" of God (Father god)?  Aren't the two equal partners along with the Holy Spirit?

Let's stay on topic. The New Testament is very clear that Jesus is the servant of God, who Jesus calls his Father. Matthew for example quotes another prophecy in Isaiah, which he attributes to Jesus Christ:

Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place. A large crowd followed him, and he healed all who were ill. 16 He warned them not to tell others about him. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:

18 Here is my servant whom I have chosen,
    the one I love, in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
    and he will proclaim justice to the nations.
19 He will not quarrel or cry out;
    no one will hear his voice in the streets.
20 A bruised reed he will not break,
    and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out,
till he has brought justice through to victory.
21     In his name the nations will put their hope.”[b]

- Matthew 12:15-21 (NIV)

Matthew quotes a version of Isaiah 42:1-4

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1042.htm
Some Muslims attribute Isaiah 42 to Muhammad, but Matthew attributes this prophecy to Jesus Christ around centuries before Muhammad was born.

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On 9/26/2016 at 10:35 PM, onereligion said:

Also, the Old Testament is very relaxed in the use of the term "messiah" which simply means, "anointed one".  Kings and high priests were anointed so were pots and pans, even Cyrus the Great of Persia (Isaiah 45:1).

True. However, Cyrus the Great of Persia could not be the Messiah promised on the throne of King David forever. He is disqualified for fulfilling that prophecy simply because he is not a descendant of King David. God did use King Cyrus the Great of Persia however to allow Jewish people to return to Jerusalem and rebuild it. This is why he is called an anointed one by the prophet Isaiah long before Cyrus was even born, which is pretty cool!!!

Thus saith the LORD to His anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him, and to loose the loins of kings; to open the doors before him, and that the gates may not be shut: I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight; I will break in pieces the doors of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron;  And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I am the LORD, who call thee by thy name, even the God of Israel. For the sake of Jacob My servant, and Israel Mine elect, I have called thee by thy name, I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known Me.

Please notice that many of the prophecies God gave to the prophet Isaiah are about the nation of Israel. The Messiah on the throne of King David forever is to be a King of Israel, and a citizen of Israel - not a foreigner.

Another interesting point: while some Jewish people think the Messiah comes before the regeneration of a "true" Israel, the nation of Israel did not have a human king until the people asked, which is something God foretold to Moses long before the first king of Israel (Saul) was born.  

When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein; and shalt say: 'I will set a king over me, like all the nations that are round about me'; thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose; one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee; thou mayest not put a foreigner over thee, who is not thy brother. - Deuteronomy 17:15-16

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0517.htm

 

 

Edited by Christianlady

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On 9/26/2016 at 10:35 PM, onereligion said:

Saving the best for last, Isaiah 53:12 reads, " Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty....."  Jesus (as) will receive a portion among the great?  If you apply this to Jesus (as), then you must also concede that there were others that were his equals.  In fact, it says that Jesus (as) (if we are to take this prophecy as per your understanding) would "divide the spoil with the mighty" meaning there would be many more mighty individuals, as mighty as Jesus (as).

Jesus told his chosen apostles that they will judge the 12 tribes of Israel. I consider this to be sharing his power with his apostles and the Father deems fit for such a position.

Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”

Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

- Matthew 19:27-38 (NIV)

Please note that this takes place when the Son of Man (a title Jesus gave to himself) returns and sits on his glorious throne.

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Still think it is a prophecy for Jesus (as)?

Definitely. You have not changed my belief in the slightest, and I would not be surprised if you still hold to you belief that is different than mine. My goal in explaining my beliefs is not to persuade you to my belief, but rather to explain why I believe what I believe.

Peace and God bless you

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Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah Christianlady,

Convenience dictates that my post should have received another in reply, not four.  I wonder if you find it convenient to break down a post to individual points and then dedicating an entire post to each of those points.  What that really does is that it makes the water murky and those involved in the discussion lose sight of the bigger picture.  To bring our focus back to the main point, I will address your main points in one essay-like post.

It is an Islamic belief that Jesus (as) will have a second coming.  However, if you want our narrative, he will come (for the lack of a better expression) to clear up his name.  He, among other things, will distance himself from the notion of Trinity and those who attributed, and continue to attribute, it to him.  Also, he will get married, too, but I am not certain on the details of whether or not he will procreate.  We also believe he will uphold and reestablish Islam and judge by the Qur’an, not rule by the Bible. 

Having said that and to get to your main points, I took note of you conveniently opting for “spiritual children” over physical because it is easier for you to deal with it which is why we saw you present verse after verse where Jesus (as) supposedly referred to people as “son” or “daughter”.  I say “supposedly” because the Gospels are supposed to have been written by those whose names they bear.

Anyways, coming back to Isaiah 52 (concluding verses) and 53, we are talking about a prophecy.  When you say it was fulfilled in someone, it means that what was predicted came to pass, not will come to pass in a second-coming.  In other words, if we are to wait for a second-coming for Jesus (as) to shut the mouths of kings and everything else mentioned in those passages, then the prophecy has not come to pass and therefore, it has not been fulfilled (precisely my point).  Hence, the door is wide open for speculation and for us to fit just about anyone into that frame and that is exactly what Christians do with Old Testament prophecies.  They try to squeeze Jesus (as) into anything and everything, by hook or crook.

How do you equate anything that states “I and the children”, including Isaiah 8:18, to Jesus (as) baffles me but it is interesting to see you quote Matthew which is known to humanize Jesus (as) more than deify him; John is the one that deifies Jesus (as) the most.  Reading the four Gospels, one will find this progression of Jesus (as) from human to God with Matthew being on one end and John being on the other. 

You also made mention of the word “servant” present in Isaiah 53:11 and that it (somehow) qualifies Jesus (as) to be the one Isaiah 53 spoke about.  Before I get to that point, allow me to clarify something.  I never insinuated that Cyrus was the Messiah.  I was only letting you know the meaning of the word “messiah” and that it has been applied to humans other than Jesus (as) and even to inanimate objects.  In other words, you make it a special case while the Old Testament is quite relaxed and leisurely in its use. 

Now to Isaiah 53!  The key to deciphering any text would be to look elsewhere within the same book.  Isaiah 53 uses the term “servant” but does not identify who (or what) this servant is.  Isaiah 53, as I read somewhere, is the fourth of the four “Servant Songs.”  The remaining three are found in Isaiah chapters 42, 49 and 50).  Though the “servant” in Isaiah 53 is not openly identified, the “servant” in each of the previous Servant Songs is plainly and repeatedly identified as the Jewish nation.  Beginning with chapter 41, the equating of God’s Servant with the nation of Israel is made nine times by the prophet Isaiah, and no one other than Israel is identified as the “servant”.  Here are those verses: “You are My servant, O Israel” (41:8); “You are My servant, Israel” (49:3) and you can also refer to Isaiah 44:1, 44:2, 44:21, 45:4, 48:20.  Therefore, before we jump to another chapter of the Old Testament to identify the “servant” – let alone fast-forward a few hundred years and jump to the New Testament – it is best we look at Isaiah itself and Isaiah defines “servant” as Israel numerous times.

That, by the way, is not the only reference to someone or something being the Servant of God.  The Bible often refers to the Jewish people as God’s servant.  Please see Jeremiah 30:10, 46:27-28; Psalms 136:22.  Can you think of a good reason for the “servant” in Isaiah 53 to suddenly switch and refer to someone other than the Jewish people?  I, for one, cannot; maybe you can and if you do, please enlighten us.

Some folks, from what I have read, also point to the grammatical fact that the singular form of the word (servant, not servants) is used and that it cannot refer to an entire race (or nation) of people.   This objection holds no weight because throughout the Bible, the Jewish people are consistently referred to as a singular entity using the singular pronoun.  For example, when God speaks to the entire Jewish nation at Mount Sinai, all of the Ten Commandments are written as if speaking to an individual (Exodus 20:1-14).  This is because the Jewish people are seen as one unit (see Exodus 4:22, Deuteronomy chapter 32).  This singular reference is even more common in Biblical verses referring to the Messianic era, when the Jewish people will be fully united under the banner of God (see Hosea 14:6-7, Jeremiah 50:19).

While I can go over a line-by-line understanding of Isaiah 53 with you, it is sufficient to know that earlier in the same book of Isaiah, God predicts the long and difficult exile of the Jewish people.  And while God offers them consolation, chapter 53 occurs in the midst of Isaiah's consolatory messages which tell of the restoration of Israel to prominence as God's chosen people.  Also, let us not forget that the next chapter – Isaiah 54 – speaks of redemption which awaits Jewish people, a point acknowledged by all Christian commentaries.

The last standing point from your post is regarding the 12 apostles ruling over the 12 tribes and judging them.  Once again, it has not come to pass yet.  Therefore, you should at least state that since this has not happened yet, the prophecy has not been fulfilled.  That is the least I expect from you.  Going a step further, however, since there were 12 disciples and 12 tribes, are you saying that Judas will also get to rule? 

There are many such “prophecies” which Christians have tried to squeeze Jesus (as) into.  We will get to them in the upcoming days.  For now, it is quite clear that Isaiah 53, at best, is a wide-open prophecy and Isaiah itself explicitly uses the term “servant” for the Jewish people.

Edited by onereligion

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On 9/27/2016 at 6:38 AM, Haji 2003 said:

So how do you explain the diaspora?

Salam Haji 2003,

The diaspora is a part of the cycle in the history of the Children of Israel.

When studying the overall history of the Children of Israel, we see a definite pattern/cycle:

Obedience, Disobedience, Punishment, Restoration, Obedience, Disobedience, Punishment, Restoration,...

The nation of Israel has been destroyed and the people scattered (diaspora) several times, but she has also been regenerated/restored several times, a remarkable feat in history. God's glory can be seen in His insistence on keeping the children of Israel surviving. Without God's intervention, they would be extinct as a people group. They have suffered intense discrimination at the hands of other people groups for thousands of years. :( The Children of Israel are not extinct because of God's miracles

Long before Jesus Christ was born, the Babylonians destroyed King Solomon's temple and enslaved/scattered the Children of Israel, which G-d allowed because of their sins. Jesus didn't walk in King Solomon's temple (I personally think that's sad.) :(

Jesus walked in a regenerated Israel. The Persian kings later helped the Jewish people return to the land and rebuild the walls, though not everyone who lived in the area appreciated that:

But when Sanballat the Horonite, and Tobiah the servant, the Ammonite, and Geshem the Arabian, heard it, they laughed us to scorn, and despised us, and said: 'What is this thing that ye do? will ye rebel against the king?' Then answered I them, and said unto them: 'The God of heaven, He will prosper us; therefore we His servants will arise and build; but ye have no portion, nor right, nor memorial, in Jerusalem.'

- Nehemiah 2:19-20

Nehemiah, who lived long before Jesus, worked hard to rebuild Jerusalem's walls. Please note that Nehemiah was not a Messiah. He was a leader who God used to bring the Children of Israel back to the land of their forefathers. Also, he was willing to fight those who opposed him.

But it came to pass that, when Sanballat, and Tobiah, and the Arabians, and the Ammonites, and the Ashdodites, heard that the repairing of the walls of Jerusalem went forward, and that the breaches began to be stopped, then they were very wroth; and they conspired all of them together to come and fight against Jerusalem, and to cause confusion therein.

- Nehemiah 4:1-2

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt35b04.htm

The Children of Israel fought physically and literally for the attainment of the land from the time of Moses to now, with some exceptions.  In Nehemiah's time, he and the Children of Israel were also ready to fight their hostile neighbors who opposed their nation's regeneration:

And it came to pass from that time forth, that half of my servants wrought in the work, and half of them held the spears, the shields, and the bows, and the coats of mail; and the rulers were behind all the house of Judah. They that builded the wall and they that bore burdens laded themselves, every one with one of his hands wrought in the work, and with the other held his weapon; and the builders, every one had his sword girded by his side, and so builded. And he that sounded the horn was by me.

- Nehemiah 4:10-12

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt35b04.htm

 

So, while the Children of Israel experienced diaspora, a later generation experienced returning to the Promised Land and rebuilding, even to the point of physically fighting to do so. Why? Because that's how much they knew G-d restores Israel.

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And what does that tell is about the nature of God's promise to the Israelites?

God's promise to the Israelites is forever, spanning the generations. Each generation has a chance to obey God and reap His blessings, or disobey Him and reap His wrath.

As my Jewish Orthodox friend told me, "You don't want to be a Jew. G-d punishes us more harshly than He does other people."

I personally disagree that God punishes Jewish people more harshly than other groups of people, but I understand why she thinks that.

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady

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5 hours ago, onereligion said:

Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah Christianlady,Convenience dictates that my post should have received another in reply, not four.  I wonder if you find it convenient to break down a post to individual points and then dedicating an entire post to each of those points.  What that really does is that it makes the water murky and those involved in the discussion lose sight of the bigger picture.  To bring our focus back to the main point, I will address your main points in one essay-like post.

Wasalaam again Onereligion,

I apologize. I had no idea you would find it inconvenient for me to break down my reply into sections. It is indeed more convenient for me, but I will try to answer you in an essay for your own convenience. :)

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It is an Islamic belief that Jesus (as) will have a second coming. 

I know this. That is why it's important to take into consideration that Jesus will fulfill the Messianic prophecies, as well as the rest of Isaiah 53, that he has not yet fulfilled.

If Jesus does not, then he could not be the True Messiah on the throne of King David forever. Obviously, I believe Jesus is the true Messiah (not a false one) on the throne of King David. My Jewish friends who do not believe that Jesus is truly this Messiah is because he did not fulfill many of the Messianic promises, including rescuing Israel from her political enemies. In Jesus' time, the enemies of Israel was predominantly the Roman Empire.
 

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However, if you want our narrative, he will come (for the lack of a better expression) to clear up his name.  He, among other things, will distance himself from the notion of Trinity and those who attributed, and continue to attribute, it to him.  Also, he will get married, too, but I am not certain on the details of whether or not he will procreate.  We also believe he will uphold and reestablish Islam and judge by the Qur’an, not rule by the Bible. 

Having said that and to get to your main points, I took note of you conveniently opting for “spiritual children” over physical because it is easier for you to deal with it which is why we saw you present verse after verse where Jesus (as) supposedly referred to people as “son” or “daughter”.  I say “supposedly” because the Gospels are supposed to have been written by those whose names they bear.

 

Whether Muslims agree with him or not, Jesus did teach that God is our Father in Heaven. I understand though that Muslims do not consider God to be their spiritual Father, which is why they don't call God "Father in Heaven" as Jesus instructed his followers to do.

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Anyways, coming back to Isaiah 52 (concluding verses) and 53, we are talking about a prophecy.  When you say it was fulfilled in someone, it means that what was predicted came to pass, not will come to pass in a second-coming

This is an argument of many Jewish people who do not accept Jesus as the Mashiach/Messiah. However, God can do as He wills, and if it's His will for the Messiah to fulfill some prophecies at one coming and the rest of the prophesies at a second coming, why would we negate God?
 

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In other words, if we are to wait for a second-coming for Jesus (as) to shut the mouths of kings and everything else mentioned in those passages, then the prophecy has not come to pass and therefore, it has not been fulfilled (precisely my point).  Hence, the door is wide open for speculation and for us to fit just about anyone into that frame and that is exactly what Christians do with Old Testament prophecies.  They try to squeeze Jesus (as) into anything and everything, by hook or crook.

 

To be fair, some Muslims try to squeeze Muhammad into Old Testament and New Testament prophecies/promises too lol. My Jewish Orthodox friend has commented on how exasperating it is that Christians and Muslims have done this lol. The main difference however is that the Christians accept the Tanakh as God's Written Word and Holy Scripture, whereas the Muslims have claimed that the Tanakh and the Christian Scripture (the New Testament) are corrupt. Another difference is that the earliest Christians (including Jesus' mother Mary and Jesus' apostles) were Jewish people who accepted Yeshua (Jesus) as the Jewish Messiah, whereas the earliest Muslims were Arabs. most of whom were not Jews.

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How do you equate anything that states “I and the children”, including Isaiah 8:18, to Jesus (as) baffles me but it is interesting to see you quote Matthew which is known to humanize Jesus (as) more than deify him;

Matthew quotes Isaiah several times.

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John is the one that deifies Jesus (as) the most.  Reading the four Gospels, one will find this progression of Jesus (as) from human to God with Matthew being on one end and John being on the other. 

Interesting speculation. John also quotes Isaiah.

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You also made mention of the word “servant” present in Isaiah 53:11 and that it (somehow) qualifies Jesus (as) to be the one Isaiah 53 spoke about.  Before I get to that point, allow me to clarify something.  I never insinuated that Cyrus was the Messiah.  I was only letting you know the meaning of the word “messiah” and that it has been applied to humans other than Jesus (as) and even to inanimate objects.  In other words, you make it a special case while the Old Testament is quite relaxed and leisurely in its use. 

The promise God gave to King David about the Messiah is a special case. I didn't make this promise a special case; God did. That's why many Jewish people around the world are still waiting for the Messiah. That's why Christians (both Jewish and Gentile Christians) around the world are awaiting for the return of the Messiah, who we believe is Jesus Christ (Yeshua HaMashiach).

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Now to Isaiah 53!  The key to deciphering any text would be to look elsewhere within the same book.  Isaiah 53 uses the term “servant” but does not identify who (or what) this servant is.  Isaiah 53, as I read somewhere, is the fourth of the four “Servant Songs.”  The remaining three are found in Isaiah chapters 42, 49 and 50).  Though the “servant” in Isaiah 53 is not openly identified, the “servant” in each of the previous Servant Songs is plainly and repeatedly identified as the Jewish nation. Beginning with chapter 41, the equating of God’s Servant with the nation of Israel is made nine times by the prophet Isaiah, and no one other than Israel is identified as the “servant”.  Here are those verses: “You are My servant, O Israel” (41:8); “You are My servant, Israel” (49:3) and you can also refer to Isaiah 44:1, 44:2, 44:21, 45:4, 48:20. 

Jesus is Jewish. :) However, I understand and respect your point. Again, my Jewish friends who do not accept Jesus as the Mashiach agree with you in this respect, that the servant is the Jewish nation, not the "Christian Christ" - as my Jewish Orthodox friend describes Jesus.
 

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Therefore, before we jump to another chapter of the Old Testament to identify the “servant” – let alone fast-forward a few hundred years and jump to the New Testament – it is best we look at Isaiah itself and Isaiah defines “servant” as Israel numerous times.

That, by the way, is not the only reference to someone or something being the Servant of God.  The Bible often refers to the Jewish people as God’s servant.  Please see Jeremiah 30:10, 46:27-28; Psalms 136:22.  Can you think of a good reason for the “servant” in Isaiah 53 to suddenly switch and refer to someone other than the Jewish people?  I, for one, cannot; maybe you can and if you do, please enlighten us.

Some folks, from what I have read, also point to the grammatical fact that the singular form of the word (servant, not servants) is used and that it cannot refer to an entire race (or nation) of people.   This objection holds no weight because throughout the Bible, the Jewish people are consistently referred to as a singular entity using the singular pronoun.  For example, when God speaks to the entire Jewish nation at Mount Sinai, all of the Ten Commandments are written as if speaking to an individual (Exodus 20:1-14).  This is because the Jewish people are seen as one unit (see Exodus 4:22, Deuteronomy chapter 32).  This singular reference is even more common in Biblical verses referring to the Messianic era, when the Jewish people will be fully united under the banner of God (see Hosea 14:6-7, Jeremiah 50:19).

While I can go over a line-by-line understanding of Isaiah 53 with you, it is sufficient to know that earlier in the same book of Isaiah, God predicts the long and difficult exile of the Jewish people.  And while God offers them consolation, chapter 53 occurs in the midst of Isaiah's consolatory messages which tell of the restoration of Israel to prominence as God's chosen people.  Also, let us not forget that the next chapter – Isaiah 54 – speaks of redemption which awaits Jewish people, a point acknowledged by all Christian commentaries.

The last standing point from your post is regarding the 12 apostles ruling over the 12 tribes and judging them.  Once again, it has not come to pass yet.  Therefore, you should at least state that since this has not happened yet, the prophecy has not been fulfilled.  That is the least I expect from you.  Going a step further, however, since there were 12 disciples and 12 tribes, are you saying that Judas will also get to rule? 

There are many such “prophecies” which Christians have tried to squeeze Jesus (as) into.  We will get to them in the upcoming days.  For now, it is quite clear that Isaiah 53, at best, is a wide-open prophecy and Isaiah itself explicitly uses the term “servant” for the Jewish people.

 

I have to go now, but thanks so much for this interesting discussion. If God wills, I will consider your points and go over them later. As a Christian, I do personally believe that Jesus fulfills these prophecies, though I understand why Jewish people who don't believe Jesus is the Christ disagree with me. I understand as well why some Muslims try to squeeze Muhammad into certain prophesies/promises in the Bible too.

Peace and God bless you

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18 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Wasalaam again Onereligion,

I apologize. I had no idea you would find it inconvenient for me to break down my reply into sections. It is indeed more convenient for me, but I will try to answer you in an essay for your own convenience. :)

I know this. That is why it's important to take into consideration that Jesus will fulfill the Messianic prophecies, as well as the rest of Isaiah 53, that he has not yet fulfilled.
 

Whether Muslims agree with him or not, Jesus did teach that God is our Father in Heaven. 

This is an argument of many Jewish people who do not accept Jesus as the Mashiach/Messiah. 
 

To be fair, some Muslims try to squeeze Muhammad into Old Testament and New Testament prophecies/promises too lol. 

Matthew quotes Isaiah several times.

Interesting speculation. John also quotes Isaiah.

Jesus is Jewish. :) However, I understand and respect your point. Again, my Jewish friends who do not accept Jesus as the Mashiach agree with you in this respect, that the servant is the Jewish nation, not the "Christian Christ" - as my Jewish Orthodox friend describes Jesus.

I have to go now, but thanks so much for this interesting discussion. If God wills, I will consider your points and go over them later. As a Christian, I do personally believe that Jesus fulfills these prophecies, though I understand why Jewish people who don't believe Jesus is the Christ disagree with me. I understand as well why some Muslims try to squeeze Muhammad into certain prophesies/promises in the Bible too.

Peace and God bless you

- Peace be upon you, your family and loved ones.  I won't worry about any inconveniences as much as I care for the truth.

- I am glad that you admit that Jesus (as) has not yet fulfilled Isaiah 53.  Prior to it, you wanted us to believe that Isaiah 53 speaks of Jesus (as).  A prophecy is only realized when we see its fulfillment.  If Jesus (as) has yet to fulfill Isaiah 53, let us not use it to propagate our false notions and wishful thinking.  

As a reminder, I believe that Jesus (as) is the Messiah.  We are only arguing whether Isaiah 53 is about Jesus (as) or another failed Christian attempt to squeeze him (as) into prophecies found in the Old Testament.

- To ensure a smoother discussion and in order to get to the main point, I will assume (temporarily) that Jesus (as) preached that God is our Father in Heaven.

- Honestly, that was a natural response to your reply.  I did not read it anywhere nor am I in contact with any Jews to have learned this from them.  You said that Jesus (as) will fulfill Isaiah 53 in his second-coming, hence, it is natural to raise the objection I raised.  Again, since Jesus (as) is yet to it, that prophecy (at best) is up for grabs.

- I wholeheartedly agree with your Jewish friend.  However, there is a slight difference between how we approach the Old Testament and how you view it.  While you say you believe in the Old Testament, you uphold nothing of it whereas you find us sharing many laws with the Jews.  Anyways, between the two of us, you can be sure that I do not need the present-day Old or New Testaments to supplement my faith.

- Matthew quotes Isaiah and you also said that John does the same.  Let us first understand (and admit) that neither Matthew nor John wrote the Gospels that bear their names.  It is supposed that those individuals wrote them.  Also, quoting Isaiah is pointless if you cannot prove it.  In the upcoming days, I will post more and hope to discuss with you other references to Old Testament (including Isaiah).  However, to stay on topic, quoting Isaiah (as I said earlier) is pointless because we see that quoting Isaiah 53 in favor of Jesus (as) has raised more questions than it sought to answer.

Quoting in of itself is worthless unless one can draw a parallel and thus far we have seen that Isaiah 53 is more problematic for the Christian cause.

- Thank you.  That is all I wanted to hear.  In the book of Isaiah, the word "servant" has been used many times to denote the Jewish nation.  The only time it is used anonymously (without any direct reference) is in Isaiah 53.  Why should anyone define it differently and ascribe it to Jesus (as) when there are ample mentions of the word "servant" in reference to the Jewish nation?  

Those were my points.  One, you have not proven that Isaiah 53 has been fulfilled, therefore, the prophecy is wide open and therefore, cannot be ascribed to anyone.  And two, the word "servant" refers to the Jewish nation, not Jesus (as).

- Thank you for partaking in this discussion thus far.  I must say it is good to see you not quote verses left-n-right like you usually do.  Or perhaps you have realized that this time someone is finally onto something that cannot be easily defused (bad word choice) by quoting multiple lengthy passages.

Peace be with you and your family.

Edited by onereligion

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On 28 September 2016 at 5:32 PM, Christianlady said:

Salam Haji 2003,

The diaspora is a part of the cycle in the history of the Children of Israel.

When studying the overall history of the Children of Israel, we see a definite pattern/cycle:

Obedience, Disobedience, Punishment, Restoration, Obedience, Disobedience, Punishment, Restoration,...

 

So using the above categorisation, which seems reasonable to me, how would you describe the establishment of a secular Israeli state?

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On 9/29/2016 at 9:08 AM, onereligion said:

- Peace be upon you, your family and loved ones.  I won't worry about any inconveniences as much as I care for the truth.

Peace be upon you, your family and your loved ones too. I apologize; it's been a long time. The truth is important to me as well. I 100% believe that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life! (John 14:6).

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- I am glad that you admit that Jesus (as) has not yet fulfilled Isaiah 53.  Prior to it, you wanted us to believe that Isaiah 53 speaks of Jesus (as).  A prophecy is only realized when we see its fulfillment.  If Jesus (as) has yet to fulfill Isaiah 53, let us not use it to propagate our false notions and wishful thinking.  

Jesus Christ has already fulfilled much of Isaiah 53, and will fulfill the rest when he returns. I admit that Jesus Christ has not yet fulfilled all the prophecy about him, but I also admit that Jesus Christ has fulfilled much of the prophecy about him, and will fulfill the rest when he returns. If he didn't, by the way, he could not be the Christ/Messiah.

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As a reminder, I believe that Jesus (as) is the Messiah.  We are only arguing whether Isaiah 53 is about Jesus (as) or another failed Christian attempt to squeeze him (as) into prophecies found in the Old Testament.

In order to be the Messiah/Christ, Jesus has to fulfill prophecies/promises concerning the Messiah. Out of curiosity, which Messianic prophecies/promises do you believe Jesus fulfills, in order to be the Messiah? (Isaiah 53 is not considered to be a Messianic prophecy by Jewish scholars who don't believe Jesus to be the Messiah.) 

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- To ensure a smoother discussion and in order to get to the main point, I will assume (temporarily) that Jesus (as) preached that God is our Father in Heaven.

- Honestly, that was a natural response to your reply.  I did not read it anywhere nor am I in contact with any Jews to have learned this from them.  You said that Jesus (as) will fulfill Isaiah 53 in his second-coming, hence, it is natural to raise the objection I raised.  Again, since Jesus (as) is yet to it, that prophecy (at best) is up for grabs.

 

You can of course reject what Christians believe about Jesus fulfilling Isaiah 53. Jewish people who don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah reject this as well. That's their right and freedom, same as it's my right and freedom to believe Isaiah 53 is about Jesus Christ.  My Jewish friends who believe that Jesus (Yeshua) is the Christ (Messiah/Mashiach) believe that Isaiah 53 is about Jesus.

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- I wholeheartedly agree with your Jewish friend.  However, there is a slight difference between how we approach the Old Testament and how you view it.  While you say you believe in the Old Testament, you uphold nothing of it whereas you find us sharing many laws with the Jews.  Anyways, between the two of us, you can be sure that I do not need the present-day Old or New Testaments to supplement my faith.

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- Matthew quotes Isaiah and you also said that John does the same.  Let us first understand (and admit) that neither Matthew nor John wrote the Gospels that bear their names.  It is supposed that those individuals wrote them.  Also, quoting Isaiah is pointless if you cannot prove it.  In the upcoming days, I will post more and hope to discuss with you other references to Old Testament (including Isaiah).  However, to stay on topic, quoting Isaiah (as I said earlier) is pointless because we see that quoting Isaiah 53 in favor of Jesus (as) has raised more questions than it sought to answer.

Quoting in of itself is worthless unless one can draw a parallel and thus far we have seen that Isaiah 53 is more problematic for the Christian cause.

 

Quoting is very important, which is why in research papers, it is important to quote and give the references for sources.

The suffering that Jesus Christ experienced via the torture and crucifixion fulfills much of Isaiah 53, because that's where and how Jesus Christ "was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed. "

- from Isaiah 53:5

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm
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- Thank you.  That is all I wanted to hear.  In the book of Isaiah, the word "servant" has been used many times to denote the Jewish nation.  The only time it is used anonymously (without any direct reference) is in Isaiah 53.  Why should anyone define it differently and ascribe it to Jesus (as) when there are ample mentions of the word "servant" in reference to the Jewish nation?  

Because I don't personally believe the Jewish nation takes away my transgressions. I do believe Jesus Christ, who is the King of the Jewish nation and the whole world, takes away our sins, including the sins of the Jewish nation.

Do you believe that the Jewish nation bore your diseases, carried your pains, was wounded because of your transgressions, crushed because of your iniquities? I don't personally believe the Jewish nation can do this, because the Jewish nation sins, same as Gentile nations (including my nation) sin.

Only God, who never sins, can take away the sins of sinful nations, including the sins of the Jewish nation and the Gentile nations.

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Those were my points.  One, you have not proven that Isaiah 53 has been fulfilled, therefore, the prophecy is wide open and therefore, cannot be ascribed to anyone.  And two, the word "servant" refers to the Jewish nation, not Jesus (as).

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- Thank you for partaking in this discussion thus far.  I must say it is good to see you not quote verses left-n-right like you usually do.  Or perhaps you have realized that this time someone is finally onto something that cannot be easily defused (bad word choice) by quoting multiple lengthy passages.


 

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I love the Bible, both the Tanakh and the New Testament. However, I don't have as much time to write on forums as I used to do, because I'm working more and spending more time with family. I apologize for not being on Shiachat for awhile; life has been very busy.

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Peace be with you and your family.

Thanks. Peace and God bless you and your family too!

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On 9/30/2016 at 1:30 AM, Haji 2003 said:

So using the above categorisation, which seems reasonable to me, how would you describe the establishment of a secular Israeli state?

Salam Haji 2003,

That's an awesome question!!! :)

The answer is because of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ does not force people to accept him; they are free to accept or reject him, and many Jewish people have and do reject Jesus as the Christ, hence the establishment of a secular Israeli state instead of the establishment of an Israeli state that obeys Jesus Christ. As for establishing the nation of Israel on the Law of Moses, there are some Jewish people who are trying to do this as well, but that is part of the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant came around 2,000 years ago. The fact that many Jewish people have rejected the New Covenant is why Israel is temporarily a secular nation. 

Jesus Christ brought the New Covenant (Luke 22:20) that the prophet Jeremiah foretold:  (I boldened some.)

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel,

and with the house of Judah; not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; forasmuch as they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, saith the LORD.

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the LORD, I will put My law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people; and they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: 'Know the LORD'; for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more. - Jeremiah 31:30-33

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1131.htm

The secular state of Israel is a shell that encases a remnant, a small group of Jewish people who have accepted the New Covenant that Yeshua HaMashicah (Jesus Christ) brought to his people. Interestingly, some Jews for Jesus or Messianic Jews in the secular state of Israel are persecuted in some ways for accepting Yeshua as the Mashiach. They are called not Jews, even though Jesus Christ himself is Jewish and Jesus' mother Mary is Jewish, and his apostles who walked and talked with him are Jewish. (They are accused of blasphemy and heresy, though.)

This is to be expected however, since Jesus Christ himself warned that this would happen:  (I boldened some.)

"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." - Jesus

Matthew 5:11-12 (NIV)

When Jesus Christ returns, Israel will no longer be a secular state, but rather a monarchy who has both spiritual and physical authority over the Jewish nation, and all the nations of the world.

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady

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8 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

a small group of Jewish people who have accepted the New Covenant that Yeshua HaMashicah (Jesus Christ) brought to his people.

So if this is really what matters, then why is the secular Jewish state necessary? Could these people not fulfill God's prophecy within a Muslim country that will exist where Israel now stands?

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1 hour ago, Haji 2003 said:

So if this is really what matters, then why is the secular Jewish state necessary?

Awesome questions!!! You are a great thinker, Haji 2003!!!

God knows the answers. However, we can go back to Jesus Christ to answer the question of why God allowed the regenerated Israel to be a secular state, as opposed to the regeneration of a religious Jewish nation during Nehemiah's time.

Jesus Christ was killed because the religious leaders of his day accused him of committing blasphemy:   (I boldened some.)

But Jesus remained silent.

The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”[e]

Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy."

- Matthew 26:63-65 (NIV)

The Law of Moses commands the Children of Israel to kill blasphemers:    (I boldened some.)

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him; as well the stranger, as the home-born, when he blasphemeth the Name, shall be put to death.  - Leviticus 24:16

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0324.htm

Some people who rejected Jesus as the Messiah by the way tried to stone Jesus, but failed.

 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” - John 10:31-33 (NIV)

Jesus Christ tells the truth, but the people who accused him of blasphemy didn't understand. Because of this, many Jewish believers in Jesus Christ were killed or imprisoned, some by Jewish people who rejected Jesus and some by the pagan Romans.

The Church became predominantly Gentile, since most Jewish believers of Yeshua were killed or imprisoned by their own people and by the pagan Romans. There are more Gentiles in the world than there are Jewish people, so while Gentile believers in Jesus were killed too, they multiplied much easier than the Jewish believers in Jesus Christ.

Saul/Paul, for example, was a Jewish zealot who passionately persecuted Jewish believers of Jesus until Jesus confronted him. Maybe this is why God allowed the regenerated Israel to be a secular nation, so that the Jewish body of believers in Yeshua can grow without being killed off?

Many Jewish people by the way, are still pressured to not accept Jesus as the Christ by their Jewish communities. One reason today is because of Gentile Christians horribly persecuting Jewish people (disobeying Jesus Christ). Jewish communities were pressured to reject Jesus by the religious leaders before Gentile Christians started persecuting Jewish people, however.

The fact that Jesus has not yet fulfilled all the Messianic prophecies concerning him is an important reason as well, though again, persecution of Jewish people who rejected Jesus happened when the Gentiles took control of the church. Before this, some (not all) Jewish people persecuted other Jewish people who accepted Jesus (Yeshua) as the Christ (Mashiach) in the religious Jewish state that was destroyed by the pagan Romans.

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Could these people not fulfill God's prophecy within a Muslim country that will exist where Israel now stands?

Sadly, both Christian and Muslim countries tend to persecute or pressure people of other beliefs in favor of the state religion. Both Gentile Christians and Muslims who don't have Jewish backgrounds are Gentiles. I bring this up because of Jesus' prophecy here:

"They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." - Luke 21:24 (NIV)

The "they" here are the Jews, who were indeed taken as prisoners to all nations.

Is it possible that the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled, and it is now time for the Jews to have Jerusalem again? God knows. There is indeed a movement for the Jews to regain their holy city. While Jerusalem is the third holy city for Islam, Jerusalem is the first holy city for Judaism. Personally, I believe the Christians sinned by trying to control Jerusalem, which resulted in horrible and evil persecution of Jewish people at the hand of Gentile Christians. :( I very much hope that Gentile Christians never persecute Jewish people again, no matter if they reject Jesus (Yeshua) as the Christ (Mashiach)!

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady

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You see this can go one of three different ways. And two of them don't look too good for you.

1. The Jewish state persists and things turn out the way you anticipate. The rest of us accept that we were wrong.

2. The Jewish state comes to an end and the world carries on. The problem here is that although we could well have an Israel v.2 at some later point, it will then become difficult to argue that it's Divine Will presaging the end times, because clearly it wasn't when it happened in the 20th century.

Would there not also be ethical and moral questions about your belief system if (2) were to happen? Because it's one thing to say that if there are any human rights abuses happening at the moment it does not matter because it's the price to be paid for the return of the Messiah. A bit like Pharoah's soldiers who were drowned by the Red Sea.

But when the Israel project ends decades or centuries from now, it will become obvious that this was a dead-end and there'll be no Messiah this time around and everyone who died did so only for a land grab.

I am trying to look at this from a neutral point of view.

My own prejudice is that where belief systems become fixated on specific events, especially ones that people can bring about, or specific dates, it has never really ended very well for the people who believed in them.

I can pray for the hastened arrival of the 12th Imam (ajf), but I require facts on the ground to enable it to happen.

Obviously I am more sympathetic to the views of those Jews who also don't believe that a proactive effort by humans is what is required for the re-appearance of the Messiah.

Like Muslims, those Jews will not have their faith testing when the Israel project ends. I think those Jews are better positioned for the way the future will pan out, than Christians who share your beliefs.

My opinion that it will end was reinforced by a visit a few years ago to the National Archaelogical Museum in Athens. It really brought home to me how very many tribes and civilisations had held sway over tracts of land for millenia in that region and to imagine that one group will now do so for perpetuity seems fanciful.

Time will tell.

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19 hours ago, Christianlady said:

 

When Jesus Christ returns, Israel will no longer be a secular state, but rather a monarchy who has both spiritual and physical authority over the Jewish nation, and all the nations of the world.

Peace and God bless you

 Going back to the Middle Ages? A nation run by a dictator ruling the entire world?  A Jewish or Christian Caliphate? The establishment of Israel in -48 was a descision with terrible consequenses for almost everybody, and I find it hard to believe this was what God wished. 

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On 12/8/2016 at 9:45 AM, Christianlady said:

Peace be upon you, your family and your loved ones too. I apologize; it's been a long time. The truth is important to me as well. I 100% believe that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life! (John 14:6).

Hope you find this post in peace and good health.  Good to have you back and thank you for reaffirming your belief.

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Jesus Christ has already fulfilled much of Isaiah 53, and will fulfill the rest when he returns. I admit that Jesus Christ has not yet fulfilled all the prophecy about him, but I also admit that Jesus Christ has fulfilled much of the prophecy about him, and will fulfill the rest when he returns. If he didn't, by the way, he could not be the Christ/Messiah.

Do you not see the incoherence in that notion?  Jesus (asws) has "already fulfilled much of Isaiah 53" and "will fulfill the rest when he returns".  As stated earlier, a prophecy is only realized when we see its fulfillment.  If there are portions left unfulfilled, you cannot squeeze Jesus (asws) into the gap.  Besides, I repeat, if Isaiah clearly defined "servant" to be Israel (in other chapters), why should we believe it is speaking about Jesus (asws) in Chapter 53 when it makes yet another reference to the "servant"?  Or should we abandon context?

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The suffering that Jesus Christ experienced via the torture and crucifixion fulfills much of Isaiah 53, because that's where and how Jesus Christ "was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed. "

- from Isaiah 53:5

That is extrapolation, at best!  The context of Isaiah cannot be overlooked because you believe someone experienced torture and was crucified.  Point to note is that the entire last portion of Mark (which talks about the crucifixion) has been found to be an interpolation.  Hence, you are interpreting Isaiah 53 in the light of a doubtful event which was inserted into the Bible (not find in the earliest manuscripts known to man) to make it appear as though it is talking about Jesus (asws).

Peace be upon you and your loves ones during this holiday season :)

 

Edited by onereligion

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7 hours ago, onereligion said:

  Point to note is that the entire last portion of Mark (which talks about the crucifixion) has been found to be an interpolation. 

 

The last 12 verses of Mark are missing in the oldest greek manuscripts. Eusibus notes this around 300AD. However they do not speak about the crucifixion.

Mark without those 12 verses ends very abrupt wich is the reason for the interpolation. Who made it we do not know. But it was before the Canon wad decided.

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17 hours ago, andres said:

The last 12 verses of Mark are missing in the oldest greek manuscripts. Eusibus notes this around 300AD. However they do not speak about the crucifixion.

Mark without those 12 verses ends very abrupt wich is the reason for the interpolation. Who made it we do not know. But it was before the Canon wad decided.

I apologize for my error which was due to writing in haste.  As you have correctly pointed out (which also was my intention), the resurrection (not crucifixion) mentioned in the last chapter of Mark (Mark 16, verse 9 onwards) is an interpolation according to the oldest manuscripts presently available.

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7 hours ago, onereligion said:

I apologize for my error which was due to writing in haste.  As you have correctly pointed out (which also was my intention), the resurrection (not crucifixion) mentioned in the last chapter of Mark (Mark 16, verse 9 onwards) is an interpolation according to the oldest manuscripts presently available.

No problem. I think I made a mistake also. Eusebius may not have noticed that the ending was missing in the oldest documents. Several other early christians are known to have written about this. The ending was probably lost early. The possibility that Mark ended this abrupt way can of course not be totally excluded.

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On 12/9/2016 at 5:11 AM, andres said:

 Going back to the Middle Ages? A nation run by a dictator ruling the entire world?  A Jewish or Christian Caliphate? The establishment of Israel in -48 was a descision with terrible consequenses for almost everybody, 

Salam Andres,

According to Zechariah 14, God Himself will reign. (I boldened some in the passage below.)

"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso of the families of the earth goeth not up unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, upon them there shall be no rain. " - Zechariah 14:16-17

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2314.htm

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and I find it hard to believe this was what God wished. 

Out of curiosity, do you believe that God sent the flood to destroy sinful humans during Noah's time? How many people did He save on the ark?

God will judge the earth again. Zechariah 14 is just one of the prophecies about God's judgement. 

Jesus Christ prophesied that when he, the "Son of Man" and Lord (Master) returns, the following will happen: (I boldened some.)

Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 

But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

God's way of thinking is much higher than human's way of thinking, because He is the omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent Creator.

Out of curiosity, do you believe God is a dictator? He will judge people at the Resurrection, that's for sure. However, I personally don't think God is a dictator, because He is our Creator. He has the right to discipline and punish and reward people according to His will.

Peace and God bless you

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On 12/9/2016 at 9:40 PM, onereligion said:

Hope you find this post in peace and good health.  Good to have you back and thank you for reaffirming your belief.

Salam Onereligion,

Thanks so much. :) I apologize for another long absence. I hope you find this post in peace and good health also!

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Do you not see the incoherence in that notion? 

It is not incoherent in my opinion. We obviously have 2 opposing opinions. :)

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Jesus (asws) has "already fulfilled much of Isaiah 53" and "will fulfill the rest when he returns".  As stated earlier, a prophecy is only realized when we see its fulfillment.  If there are portions left unfulfilled, you cannot squeeze Jesus (asws) into the gap. 

Prophecies are not all fulfilled at the same time. Each prophecy is fulfilled in its time frame, some more than once. For example, when Mary, who was a virgin at the time, gave birth to Jesus Christ, that did not fulfill all the prophecies, but rather this one:

"Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." - Isaiah 7:14

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1007.htm

(Immanuel, by the way, means "God with us.") This prophecy is quoted in Matthew 1:23.

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Besides, I repeat, if Isaiah clearly defined "servant" to be Israel (in other chapters), why should we believe it is speaking about Jesus (asws) in Chapter 53 when it makes yet another reference to the "servant"?  Or should we abandon context?

Because Jesus Christ "was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed." (From Isaiah 53:5)

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1053.htm

You did not answer my questions

Do you believe that you are healed by Israel's stripes? I don't.

I don't believe that Israel justifies or bears my iniquities, nope. Why? Israel has sins of her own. She is not capable of justifying anybody. (My own nation is not capable of justifying anybody either.)

Do you believe Israel "made intercession for the transgressors" (from Isaiah 53:12), especially due to the fact that Israel has her own sins to account for???

Please note that Jesus Christ (Yeshua HaMashiach) was born to save his people from their sins:

"She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

Matthew 1:21 (NIV)

Yeshua means salvation.

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That is extrapolation, at best!  The context of Isaiah cannot be overlooked because you believe someone experienced torture and was crucified.  Point to note is that the entire last portion of Mark (which talks about the crucifixion) has been found to be an interpolation.  Hence, you are interpreting Isaiah 53 in the light of a doubtful event which was inserted into the Bible (not find in the earliest manuscripts known to man) to make it appear as though it is talking about Jesus (asws).

Many of the disciples of Jesus Christ died in painful ways, giving testimony to the torture and crucifixion, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. You can of course disregard their testimonies, but I don't.
 

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Peace be upon you and your loves ones during this holiday season :)

 

Thank you so much!!! :) Peace and God bless you and your loved ones as well!!! :)

 

 

Edited by Christianlady

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Hi Christianlady.

I find it impossible to believe the flood story to be accurate. It could not have covered the entire earth. Noas boat was not large enough to pick up all landliving creatures either. I am also certainl the kangerooes in Australia did not make it to the ME in time to enter the ship. There are similar flood traditions in the ME. The oldest written over 1.000 years older than the Biblical that was composed around the Babylonian imprisonment. Some have proposed the myth to derive from the flooding of the Black Sea. Think it happened 6.000 BC.

I believe in a good and forgiving God. Do not think the term dictator can be used in heaven. But who knows. 

 

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