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Christianlady

Fulfilling Prophecies to Israel

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2 minutes ago, Yoel said:


That's precisely my point. I am an anti-Zionist. Most Hasidic Jews are anti-Zionist and reject the existence of the State of Israel, though tactical positions what to do about it may vary.

Salam Yoel,

I understand that you are anti-Zionists. However, many Jewish people who believe in G-d are Zionists. They disagree with you. That's my point.

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There is no place for Zionism in Orthodox or traditional Catholic Christianity either.

Well, the Christians who controlled the land during the Byzantine Empire and the Crusaders who later fought Muslims for control of the Holy Land would definitely agree with you. I think most Christians in that time period would be shocked at the idea of Jewish people controlling their own land. However, most Christians in that time period were ignorant of the Bible; they were only fed what their religious leaders saw fit, which is why some Crusaders had no problem killing Muslims, other Christians, and Jews. They didn't know any better; they thought God willed it. :(

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Most people on this website are probable not big fans of Zionism. The world does not orbit around Zionism, you know.

True and true. The world does however "orbit" around G-d, because G-d allows nations to fall and rise.

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There are many good reason to honestly say what "Israel" really is, a little racist apartheid state armed with nukes and full of lunatic ambitions. What's so Jewish about it?

The same thing that's so Jewish about Israel in King David's time. Do you think King David's Israel was not for the Jews, or at least Judah's inheritance was not for the Jews? 

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Replacement theology is at least consistent and traditional.

It's not Biblical though.

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Obviously, I don't agree with it, but I see where it comes from and may appreciate philosophical and ethical works written by Christian saints and mystics.

The written works of Christian saints and mystics don't trump the Tanakh, in my opinion.

Peace and God bless you

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25 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

I stand up for my Jewish friends on Shiachat. They don't come here, though I've invited one of my Jewish friends to come here. She won't. Her reason? "Muslims hate us"

 

Aha, "Burn Before Reading" logic :)

 

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6 minutes ago, Yoel said:

 

I am just stating a well known and documented historical fact. Some Jesuit and Protestant theologians were the first who suggested to gather the Jews in Palestine by political means and to create a modern nation-state for them. Centuries before any known Jew suggested it.

Salam Yoel,

Evidence please?

Again, anybody can accuse anybody of anything. Evidence is important for that reason.

Peace and God bless you

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7 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

The written works of Christian saints and mystics don't trump the Tanakh, in my opinion.

 

You're right, they don't. But it took over a thousand of years for the Church Fathers to reconcile more or less the OT and NT and to define a consistent theory that puts everything in place. That's why the Patristic tradition is indispensable in Orthodox Christianity.

 

Edited by Yoel

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Just now, Yoel said:

 

It was for God, and the Jews were for God.

Salam Yoel,

The Jews are still for God, same as the Land, which is why it's called Holy Land, yeah?

Now tell me, why can't Judaism have their holy site? Jewish people don't want to go take away Islam's holiest site: Mecca, or the Muslim holy sites of Medina, or Karbalah? They don't want to take away the Vatican. They just want to worship G-d at their holy city, Jerusalem, which is understandable.

What's so wrong about allowing Jewish people to worship G-d in Jerusalem??? The Christians who wouldn't let Jews worship in Jerusalem did evil and wrong for persecuting the Jewish people. :( Do you agree with me on that at least? The evil of the Christians who controlled the Holy Land and persecuted the Jews?

Peace and God bless you

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6 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

Salam Yoel,

Evidence please?

Again, anybody can accuse anybody of anything. Evidence is important for that reason.

Peace and God bless you

 

Already provided above, but here it is again:

http://www.christianzionism.org/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism

Now, your turn. Please provide evidence of any Jew before Herzl who suggested to gather in Palestine without the real Messiah.

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12 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

Salam Yoel,

You know most Jewish people who support Israel won't post here. That's not a surprise to anybody.

Peace and God bless you

 

Given your enthusiasm, you could yourself become Jewish and provide the prime example. Just kidding :)

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36 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

Why do you not believe that what King David did to the Jebusites is not "heretical"? In my opinion, King David is the founder of Zionism, because he conquered the fortress of Zion.

 

Once again, King David was a prophet and a saintly infallible person who had direct direct instruction from God regarding those of the Jebusites who on principle refused to accept God and to cooperate peacefully with the Jews. By your logic, Jesus was the founder of the Crusades, because he carried his cross up to Calvary. Words may sound the same, but meaning is very different.

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Just now, Yoel said:

 

Already provided above, but here it is again:

http://www.christianzionism.org/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism

 

Salam Yoel,

Thanks, but just posting a website does not prove that Christians were Zionists before any Jewish person was. Please quote your evidence.

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Now, your turn. Please provide evidence of any Jew before Herzl who suggested to gather in Palestine without the real Messiah.

I boldened some.

Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Kalischer was born in  Leszno, Prussia in 1795 and died in Thorn, Prussia, in 1874. He was one of the first forerunners of modern Zionism, and specifically of modern religious Zionism, together with Rabbi Alkalai.  A fierce opponent of Reform Judaism, Kalischer also was learned in  philosophy and non-religious subjects. He spent most of his life as a rabbi in Thorn, which is now in Torun, Poland, serving without salary. In 1862 he declared that the redemption of Zion would have to begin with action by the Jewish people; the messianic miracle would then follow.

http://zionism-israel.com/bio/kalischer_biography.htm

Peace and God bless you

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12 minutes ago, Yoel said:

 

Given your enthusiasm, you could yourself become Jewish and provide the prime example. Just kidding :)

Salam Yoel,

Lol!!! :) My Jewish friends call me "animal lover" because I get all sad when they talk about the lambs for Passover. They explained to me how Jewish people used to take care of the lamb for (I forgot how many) days before killing the lamb for Passover, like G-d commanded the Children of Israel to do. (I usually don't eat mammals.)

Regardless, I have to admit, I love my Jewish friends, same as I love my Muslim friends. :)

As for becoming Jewish, it's very possible my hubby is a descendant of Sephardic Jews... his ancestors includes Spanish people with a very Jewish sounding last name. His parents were Catholic but many Jewish people from Spain were forced into Catholicism. So, it's possible I might have married a descendant of Jewish people, though he doesn't identify as Jewish. 

Anyways, I do love the account of Ruth in the Bible!!! She is one of my heroes!!! :) I also love how she is the great grandmother of King David!!! 

Peace and God bless you

 

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13 minutes ago, Yoel said:

Once again, King David was a prophet and a saintly infallible person who had direct direct instruction from God regarding those of the Jebusites who on principle refused to accept God and to cooperate peacefully with the Jews.

Salam Yoel,

Agreed.

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By your logic, Jesus was the founder of the Crusades, because he carried his cross up to Calvary. Words may sound the same, but meaning is very different.

That's not my logic at all!!! Jesus clearly commanded his followers to love neighbors as oneself and love enemies. He gave us the example by not killing anybody but rather allowing himself to be killed. He also said "“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

King David didn't tell the children of Israel to not kill Non-Jews, did he?

Jesus did not kill either Jews or Gentiles, but he did prophecy that Jerusalem would be trampled by the Gentiles till the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. That's pretty strong language, hmm? It's also not a pleasant picture, but it truly happened.

I have to go now, but thanks so much for the interesting discussion. I respect your believe and view, though we obviously disagree. :) That's ok though!

Peace and God bless you

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22 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Salam Yoel,

Thanks, but just posting a website does not prove that Christians were Zionists before any Jewish person was. Please quote your evidence.

 

Did you look into the Wikipedia article?
 

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Christian advocacy of the restoration of the Jews on their land was first heard following the Protestant reformation, particularly in the English-speaking world among the Puritans. It was common practice among Puritans to anticipate and frequently pray for a Jewish return to their homeland.[10]John Owen, a prominent 17th century English Covenant theologian, for example, wrote: "Moreover, it is granted that there shall be a time and season, during the continuance of the kingdom of the Messiah in this world, wherein the generality of the nation of the Jews, all the world over, shall be called and effectually brought unto the knowledge of the Messiah, our Lord Jesus Christ; with which mercy they shall also receive deliverance from their captivity, restoration unto their own land, with a blessed, flourishing, and happy condition therein."[11]John Gill took a similar position.[12]

 


John Owen was born in 1616 and died in 1683. Theodor Herzl was born in 1860 and wrote Der Judenstaat in 1895, over two centuries after this Puritan guy who was not the first to come up with Christian proto-Zionism.

Edited by Yoel

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22 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Kalischer was born in  Leszno, Prussia in 1795 and died in Thorn, Prussia, in 1874. He was one of the first forerunners of modern Zionism, and specifically of modern religious Zionism, together with Rabbi Alkalai.  A fierce opponent of Reform Judaism, Kalischer also was learned in  philosophy and non-religious subjects. He spent most of his life as a rabbi in Thorn, which is now in Torun, Poland, serving without salary. In 1862 he declared that the redemption of Zion would have to begin with action by the Jewish people; the messianic miracle would then follow.

 

Kalischer was born in 1795. In 1862, long after those Jesuits and Puritans, he wrote a book, which advocated building a network of agricultural colonies in Palestine and believed that doing so would hasten the Messianic Redemption. He did not advocate creating a full-fledged state. Other rabbis of this time period almost unanimously declared that Kalischer's idea was still border-line heretical. 

Edited by Yoel

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22 hours ago, Christianlady said:

King David didn't tell the children of Israel to not kill Non-Jews, did he?
 

 

Of course he did! The commandment not to kill innocent people and to love your neighbors as yourself comes directly from the Torah. But he did wage wars against those idolaters (non non-Jews, exactly idolaters) who refused to cooperate peacefully with the Jews. Christians also conquered the world by sword and, unlike David, did not bother to sort out idolaters and monotheists,

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22 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Salam Yoel,

Lol!!! :) My Jewish friends call me "animal lover" because I get all sad when they talk about the lambs for Passover. They explained to me how Jewish people used to take care of the lamb for (I forgot how many) days before killing the lamb for Passover, like G-d commanded the Children of Israel to do. (I usually don't eat mammals.)

 

 

We don't kill lambs for Passover for the last 2000 years. Actually it's forbidden now. Learn the basics of authentic Orthodox Judaism.

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4 minutes ago, Yoel said:

 

We don't kill lambs for Passover for the last 2000 years. Actually it's forbidden now. Learn the basics of authentic Orthodox Judaism.

Salam Yoel,

You don't eat lamb during Passover? My hubby observed Passover with our Messianic Jewish friends, and we ate lamb for Passover meal. (I did too.) They said that it used to be where the Children of Israel had to take care of the lamb for (I forgot how many) days before killing it for Passover. Is that the same in Orthodox Judaism? Out of curiosity, was that changed after the Second Temple was destroyed by the Roman Empire?

Peace and God bless you

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8 minutes ago, Yoel said:

 

Of course he did! The commandment not to kill innocent people and to love your neighbors as yourself comes directly from the Torah.

Salam Yoel,

Could you please point me out to the reference where David commanded this, accounted in the Torah? Thanks.

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But he did wage wars against those idolaters (non non-Jews, exactly idolaters) who refused to cooperate peacefully with the Jews.

True.

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Christians also conquered the world by sword and, unlike David, did not bother to sort out idolaters and monotheists,

 

Christians disobeyed Jesus Christ whenever they used the sword. :(

Jesus Christ clearly commanded his followers to love neighbors as oneself (Matthew 22:35-40; Luke 10:27-37) and love enemies (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6;27-37). His Jewish followers obeyed him (except for Peter once who Jesus rebuked when he used his sword). Sadly, when Gentiles "took over", they continued following pagan traditions of conquering the world by sword. King David however didn't set up an Empire; he merely defended the Promised Land that G-d gave to the Israelites.

Peace and God bless you

 

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11 hours ago, Christianlady said:

 Out of curiosity, was that changed after the Second Temple was destroyed by the Roman Empire?

 

 

You just  said it yourself. The destruction of the Temple changed many things. Passover sacrifices was permitted to do only inside the Jerusalem Temple in the state of perfect ritual purity. We are not on this level, many original rules of Temple purity were forgotten or are impossible to keep, and the Temple itself has been destroyed. So no more sacrifices, including the lamb. Although, you may eat regular kosher lamb on Passover, but merely as a reminder, not a sacrifice.

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11 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Salam Yoel,

Could you please point me out to the reference where David commanded this, accounted in the Torah? Thanks.

 

Quote

 

You shall not kill (Exodus 20:13 and Deuteronomy 5:17)

You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 18:18)

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:sign_offtopic:@Yoel Wanted to say, briefly...thank you for your contributions. My Jewish friends ( not Hasidic) still follow your line of thinking. Guess I am one of your " traditional Catholics". Would like to talk with you some day about your thoughts on liberation theology...but  I (and some of my Jewish allies )are involved in a major action presently ...it has been like herding cats around here and I don't know when it will end.

Cheers!

image.jpeg

Edited by LeftCoastMom

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10 hours ago, Yoel said:

You shall not kill (Exodus 20:13 and Deuteronomy 5:17)

You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 18:18)

Salam Yoel,

David did not write what is written in the Torah, yes? Moses wrote these, yes? 

However, David did obey the Law God gave to the Children of Israel via Moses. I understand that, though he did indeed kill Philistines who did not let his people, the Israelites, live in peace, including Goliath.

(Yes, all through my childhood I learned about David and Goliath.)    As you can imagine, King David has been a hero of mine ever since I can remember.

There's a kid's song about David and Goliath that goes like this:

"Only a Boy Named David"

This is one of the songs I grew up listening to ..and singing.

Thanks for answering my question! I appreciate your contributions as well, though we disagree in some areas.

I pray that more and more Israelis will love their Palestinian neighbors, and vice versa. I greatly admire Israelis who stand up for the rights of Palestinians, and the Palestinians who stand up for loving their neighbors and refusing to be enemies, like one of my heroes - Daoud Nassar.

While Jewish people and Gentiles disagree over the right of Israel to exist as a nation, the fact remains that Israel is a nation, and the fact remains that G-d promised to regather the Children of Israel to the Promised Land; (I boldened some.)

Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say: 'He that scattered Israel doth gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.'

For the LORD hath ransomed Jacob, and He redeemeth him from the hand of him that is stronger than he.

And they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow unto the goodness of the LORD, to the corn, and to the wine, and to the oil, and to the young of the flock and of the herd; and their soul shall be as a watered garden, and they shall not pine any more at all.

- Jeremiah 31:9-11

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1131.htm

Some people think that's a literal gathering, like what He did via King Cyrus the Great of Persia allowing Jews to physically return, and how Nehemiah was physically allowed to return later on. Others think it's a spiritual gathering. Regardless, whatever God promises always happens!!!

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady

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On 7/27/2016 at 9:40 PM, Christianlady said:

Salam,

My Jewish friends who have come to accept Yeshua (Jesus) as the Mashiach (Christ) see Jesus Christ in Isaiah 53.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1053.htm

My Jewish friends who have not (yet, by God's grace someday they may choose to accept him) see Israel in Isaiah 53.

What do Muslims believe concerning Isaiah 53? Since Muslims reject the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ, do they reject Jesus fulfilling Isaiah 53? Thanks

Peace and God bless you

Walaykum as salaam wa rahmatullah,

In order to reciprocate to your contribution in one of the Shia-Sunni discussions, I will comment on this in the light of other (mis)interpretations I have read from you.

Isaiah 53 is often (mis)quoted in favor of Jesus (as).  Let us read the verses discarded, the verse prior to chapter 53.

"So will many nations be amazed at him and kings will shut their mouths because of him". (Isaiah 52:15)

The nations will be amazed and the kings speechless?  Really?  Jesus (as) was not world-renowned during his lifetime.  As I read somewhere, we have evidence of his followers from historians such as Josephus, Tacitus, and Suetonius but nothing from prolific authors such as Philo of Alexandria, Seneca, and Pliny the Elder.  In other words, Jesus (as) was not as famous as the prophecy you have shared.

Furthermore, Isaiah 53:10 says, "he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand" and we know that Jesus (as) - according to the Bible - started his ministry at 30 and preached for 3 years.  Certainly, he did not see "his offspring" and his days were not prolonged by any stretch of imagination.

Verse 11 in Isaiah 53 refers to this person as "my righteous servant".  But isn't the whole point of Trinity that God is 1 in 3 and 3 in 1 and that these 3 are 1.  If that is the case, how can Jesus (as) (or Son god) be the "righteous servant" of God (Father god)?  Aren't the two equal partners along with the Holy Spirit?

Also, the Old Testament is very relaxed in the use of the term "messiah" which simply means, "anointed one".  Kings and high priests were anointed so were pots and pans, even Cyrus the Great of Persia (Isaiah 45:1).

Saving the best for last, Isaiah 53:12 reads, " Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty....."  Jesus (as) will receive a portion among the great?  If you apply this to Jesus (as), then you must also concede that there were others that were his equals.  In fact, it says that Jesus (as) (if we are to take this prophecy as per your understanding) would "divide the spoil with the mighty" meaning there would be many more mighty individuals, as mighty as Jesus (as).

Still think it is a prophecy for Jesus (as)?

Edited by onereligion

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6 hours ago, onereligion said:

Walaykum as salaam wa rahmatullah,

In order to reciprocate to your contribution in one of the Shia-Sunni discussions, I will comment on this in the light of other (mis)interpretations I have read from you.

Isaiah 53 is often (mis)quoted in favor of Jesus (as).  Let us read the verses discarded, the verse prior to chapter 53.

"So will many nations be amazed at him and kings will shut their mouths because of him". (Isaiah 52:15)

The nations will be amazed and the kings speechless?  Really?  Jesus (as) was not world-renowned during his lifetime.  As I read somewhere, we have evidence of his followers from historians such as Josephus, Tacitus, and Suetonius but nothing from prolific authors such as Philo of Alexandria, Seneca, and Pliny the Elder.  In other words, Jesus (as) was not as famous as the prophecy you have shared.

Furthermore, Isaiah 53:10 says, "he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand" and we know that Jesus (as) - according to the Bible - started his ministry at 30 and preached for 3 years.  Certainly, he did not see "his offspring" and his days were not prolonged by any stretch of imagination.

Verse 11 in Isaiah 53 refers to this person as "my righteous servant".  But isn't the whole point of Trinity that God is 1 in 3 and 3 in 1 and that these 3 are 1.  If that is the case, how can Jesus (as) (or Son god) be the "righteous servant" of God (Father god)?  Aren't the two equal partners along with the Holy Spirit?

Also, the Old Testament is very relaxed in the use of the term "messiah" which simply means, "anointed one".  Kings and high priests were anointed so were pots and pans, even Cyrus the Great of Persia (Isaiah 45:1).

Saving the best for last, Isaiah 53:12 reads, " Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty....."  Jesus (as) will receive a portion among the great?  If you apply this to Jesus (as), then you must also concede that there were others that were his equals.  In fact, it says that Jesus (as) (if we are to take this prophecy as per your understanding) would "divide the spoil with the mighty" meaning there would be many more mighty individuals, as mighty as Jesus (as).

Still think it is a prophecy for Jesus (as)?

Hi onereligion

You are right, it is obvious that Jesus was not world famous when he had his mission. But 50 years after the crucifixion, when the 4 Gospels were written, he was. I also agree Old Testament prophesies are very dizzy and can be interpreted to fit your own ideas. 

 

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