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Christianlady

Fulfilling Prophecies to Israel

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Salam, 

I hope everyone is very well.

One reason why I'm a Christian is because I believe Jesus (Yeshua) HaMashiach (Messiah/Christ) fulfills and will fulfill all the Messianic prophecies God gave to the Children of Israel.

For Muslims, which Messianic and other Biblical prophecies do you believe Jesus fulfills, earning the title of Messiah/Mashiach/Christ?

Sadly, even some Christians today do not realize that Christ is not Jesus' last name. Christ/Mashiach/Messiah is a title for the Anointed One/King promised by God to King David who will be on his throne forever. (2 Samuel 7, 1 Chronicles 17, Psalm 89, Isaiah 9).

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt08b07.htm

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt25a17.htm

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2689.htm

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1009.htm

Many Jewish people both 2,000 years ago till today reject Yeshua (Jesus) as the Mashiach (Christ/Messiah) for many different reasons, including the very true fact that Jesus has not yet fulfilled all the Messianic prophecies/promises. Christians however believe that Jesus Christ will fulfill them when he returns! I know that Muslims believe Jesus Christ will return. Why do they believe this? What Biblical promises/prophesies do Muslims believe Jesus fulfills?

My Jewish friends who have come to accept Yeshua (Jesus) as the Mashiach (Christ) see Jesus Christ in Isaiah 53.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1053.htm

My Jewish friends who have not (yet, by God's grace someday they may choose to accept him) see Israel in Isaiah 53.

What do Muslims believe concerning Isaiah 53? Since Muslims reject the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ, do they reject Jesus fulfilling Isaiah 53? Thanks

Peace and God bless you

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God reminds the Jews in the Quran about the covenant he made with them and that they should keep it. You are right about the immoral behaviour of many Jews.

Edited by magma
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Well, we Muslims most importantly believe that Jesus fulfills the role of the Messiah of the Jews but we have an even more important figure which is the Mahdi.

The Mahdi will bring peace and justice to this world and remove all the corruptions in this world. More specifically to us Shia Muslims is that the Mahdi is the final Imam and he is the remainder of Allah (his proof). He is among the last descendants of Fatima. He will come before Jesus when the Sufiyani starts causing havoc. Jesus will come after the Mahdi and Jesus will reveal the truth to all the Christians that he is not the Son of God (or God), and that he was never crucified at all and he never allowed any of his followers to eat pork. Jesus will then break the cross and kill the pig and then in order to show the Christians that Islam is the only true religion, he will pray behind the Mahdi. And then from that point onwards, Islam will be the only religion in existence and the whole universe will follow Islam and the Mahdi.

All of this is prophesied in the ahadith of our Prophet and our Imams.

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Well written. Common sense. Unfortunately fanatics do not always use common sense. The world should stop this aphartheid regime. As long as the worlds leading power USA hesitates, Israel can continue stealing land. Unfortunately Muslim countries arent very helpful either.

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Personally I think God did show them alot of grace when they were slaves in Egypt and that salvation did come from Jews but I do not know if they are priviliged in some way in front of God because I see not that they are morally superior but maybe they are just blessed because they are descendants from Abraham.

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Thats not a fair description. Jews, like other semitic tribes originally were polytheists. When the kingdom of Israel formed in the beginning of the first millennium BC, polytheism was still practised, but increasingly replaced by Judaism, Of course there must have been religious conflicts between the groups. 

 

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On 7/28/2016 at 6:03 AM, andres said:

As long as the worlds leading power USA hesitates, Israel can continue stealing land.

 

Zionism was invented by pseudo-Christian British and American Protestant heretics from the start with and was injected into secularized ignorant "Jewish" communities in order to create a pawn and scapegoat of British and American imperialism in the Middle East. Authentic Judaism vehemently reject Zionism and the very existence of the Zionist State as a heretical entity. Zionism is the enemy #1 of Judaism. On spiritual level, the Zionists do the same to the Jews as Germans did in physical level.

USA will support the Zionist entity, because it is historically an invention of right-wing imperialist Protestants. 100 million Christian American consider themselves Christian Zionists. By an order of magnitude more than all people of Jewish background around the world. Hundreds of thousands of Orthodox Jews, on the other hand, deny the right of the Zionist entity to exist. The largest Hasidic community, Satmar, who has about 130,000 members, officially curses the Zionist state in holiday prayers and prays for its peaceful dismantlement.

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1 hour ago, Yoel said:

Zionism was invented by pseudo-Christian British and American Protestant heretics from the start with and was injected into secularized ignorant "Jewish" communities in order to create a pawn and scapegoat of British and American imperialism in the Middle East.

Salam Yoel,

Do you have proof of this accusation? Sadly, one of the reasons why many Jewish people wanted to go back to their ancestors' homeland is because of Christians who disobeyed Jesus Christ's commands to love people. :(

Alkalai was greatly influenced by the 1840 Damascus Blood Libel, in which Jews were falsely accused of killing a Christian child in order to use his blood for baking matzoth.  This blood libel convinced Rabbi Alkalai  that Jews could only be free and secure as an independent people in their own land, and that this required action on the part of the Jews. He was likewise inspired by the joint action and organization of Jewish philanthropists and charitable groups.

http://www.zionism-israel.com/bio/alkalai_biography.htm

Interestingly, people can accuse people of other groups of anything. You accuse Protestant Christians of starting Zionism (when many Protestant and Catholic Christians erroneously thought that God had rejected the Jews - hence feeding the horrible antisemitism in both Protestant and Catholic circles. :( ) Some Christians in the past accused Jews of killing a Christian child as well as other horrible crimes? Are either accusations correct? I doubt it. 

God did not reject the Jews. The Jews did not kill Christians for Jewish festivals (a horrible accusation) and Christians whether Protestant or Catholic are not founders of Zionism.

Again sadly, many Jewish people sought their own land because of the horrible persecution against them from both Catholic and Protestant Christians who disobeyed Jesus Christ's commands to love. :(

Quote

Authentic Judaism vehemently reject Zionism and the very existence of the Zionist State as a heretical entity. Zionism is the enemy #1 of Judaism. On spiritual level, the Zionists do the same to the Jews as Germans did in physical level.

Many Jewish people who believe in G-d completely disagree with you. Also, do you think that King David, who conquered Jerusalem from the Jebusites, was evil and an enemy of Judaism?

And the king and his men went to Jerusalem against the Jebusites, the inhabitants of the land, who spoke unto David, saying: 'Except thou take away the blind and the lame, thou shalt not come in hither'; thinking: 'David cannot come in hither.'

Nevertheless David took the stronghold of Zion; the same is the city of David.  - 2 Samuel 5:6-7

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt08b05.htm

King David is the one who made the term "Zion" famous. Zionism owes its name to King David's military conquest of Zion and Jerusalem. 
 

Quote


USA will support the Zionist entity, because it is historically an invention of right-wing imperialist Protestants. 100 million Christian American consider themselves Christian Zionists. By an order of magnitude more than all people of Jewish background around the world. Hundreds of thousands of Orthodox Jews, on the other hand, deny the right of the Zionist entity to exist. The largest Hasidic community, Satmar, who has about 130,000 members, officially curses the Zionist state in holiday prayers and prays for its peaceful dismantlement.

Again, you can accuse other people of what you want, same as some Christians accused some Jews of killing a Christian child to make matzoth. I don't believe either accusation to be true.

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady

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On 7/27/2016 at 11:26 PM, Loveall said:

God reminds the Jews in the Quran about the covenant he made with them and that they should keep it. You are right about the immoral behaviour of many Jews.

Salam Loveall,

I'm sorry; I forgot about this thread till today.

Many Christians and Muslims are guilty of immoral behavior too. :(

Peace and God bless you

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On 7/28/2016 at 6:03 AM, andres said:

Well written. Common sense. Unfortunately fanatics do not always use common sense. The world should stop this aphartheid regime. As long as the worlds leading power USA hesitates, Israel can continue stealing land. Unfortunately Muslim countries arent very helpful either.

Salam Andres,

Do you believe God will fulfill these prophecies that He gave to Prophet Zechariah?

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, but the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fighteth in the day of battle. ... - Zechariah 14:2-3

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2314.htm

And the LORD shall be King over all the earth; in that day shall the LORD be One, and His name one. - Zechariah 14:9

...

And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the peoples that have warred against Jerusalem: their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their sockets, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. - Zechariah 14:12

...

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso of the families of the earth goeth not up unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, upon them there shall be no rain. " - Zechariah 14:16-17

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2314.htm

Personally, I believe God will fulfill His promises, whether we like it or not. God, after all, doesn't ask us our permission to do what He wills to do. We are clay; He is the Potter. He destroys what He wills, and He creates what He wills. Blessed be His Holy Name!!!

Peace and God bless you

 

 

 

Edited by Christianlady

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3 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Salam Yoel,

Do you have proof of this accusation? Sadly, one of the reasons why many Jewish people wanted to go back to their ancestors' homeland is because of Christians who disobeyed Jesus Christ's commands to love people. :(

Alkalai was greatly influenced by the 1840 Damascus Blood Libel, in which Jews were falsely accused of killing a Christian child in order to use his blood for baking matzoth.  This blood libel convinced Rabbi Alkalai  that Jews could only be free and secure as an independent people in their own land, and that this required action on the part of the Jews. He was likewise inspired by the joint action and organization of Jewish philanthropists and charitable groups.

http://www.zionism-israel.com/bio/alkalai_biography.htm

Interestingly, people can accuse people of other groups of anything. You accuse Protestant Christians of starting Zionism (when many Protestant and Catholic Christians erroneously thought that God had rejected the Jews - hence feeding the horrible antisemitism in both Protestant and Catholic circles. :( ) Some Christians in the past accused Jews of killing a Christian child as well as other horrible crimes? Are either accusations correct? I doubt it. 

God did not reject the Jews. The Jews did not kill Christians for Jewish festivals (a horrible accusation) and Christians whether Protestant or Catholic are not founders of Zionism.

Again sadly, many Jewish people sought their own land because of the horrible persecution against them from both Catholic and Protestant Christians who disobeyed Jesus Christ's commands to love. :(

Many Jewish people who believe in G-d completely disagree with you. Also, do you think that King David, who conquered Jerusalem from the Jebusites, was evil and an enemy of Judaism?

And the king and his men went to Jerusalem against the Jebusites, the inhabitants of the land, who spoke unto David, saying: 'Except thou take away the blind and the lame, thou shalt not come in hither'; thinking: 'David cannot come in hither.'

Nevertheless David took the stronghold of Zion; the same is the city of David.  - 2 Samuel 5:6-7

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt08b05.htm

King David is the one who made the term "Zion" famous. Zionism owes its name to King David's military conquest of Zion and Jerusalem. 
 

Again, you can accuse other people of what you want, same as some Christians accused some Jews of killing a Christian child to make matzoth. I don't believe either accusation to be true.

Peace and God bless you


We already had this discussion many times. Read historical articles on this website. Several centuries before Dr. Herzl introduced Zionism after picking up this idea from his British Protestant allies, Christian Zionism has been around in some Protestant circles of colonial era under the name of Dispensationalism or so-called Restoration of the Jews. People who invented it wanted to get rid of the Jews, send them to Palestine, turn them in a typical colonial Western nation and somehow by doing it trigger the Apocalypse and the Second Coming.

Zionism is a fundamentally anti-Jewish, destructive and heretical ideology, because it undermines the very foundations of Judaism, according to which we must wait patiently for the Messiah and not to try playing supposedly redemptive political games by physical means. There is nothing redemptive about the State of "Israel". Zionism is the epitome of anti-Jewishness, because this ideology masquerades as Jewish, destroys Judaism from within and replaces peaceful and kind Jewish values by a murderous worship of blood and soil.



may17-03-646.jpg

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3 hours ago, Christianlady said:

This blood libel convinced Rabbi Alkalai  that Jews could only be free and secure as an independent people in their own land, and that this required action on the part of the Jews. He was likewise inspired by the joint action and organization of Jewish philanthropists and charitable groups. 

 

Rabbi Judah Alkalai did not advocate creating a Jewish state and would not have dreamed of ethnic cleansing of the local population. He merely believed that it's a good idea to develop Jewish agricultural societies in Palestine. His ideas did influence the Zionists to some degree, but turning him into a Zionist is intellectual dishonesty. And Christian Zionism was already around well before he was born.

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3 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Also, do you think that King David, who conquered Jerusalem from the Jebusites, was evil and an enemy of Judaism?

 

He was a prophet who had specific instructions directly from God. We have the exact opposite instructions: to wait for Divine redemption, not to conquer any land and not even to think of dominating any nation.

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20 hours ago, Yoel said:

We already had this discussion many times. Read historical articles on this website.

Salam Yoel,

I don't remember you accusing Christians of inventing Zionism before? Christians didn't "invent"the Tanakh, though many Christians read the Tanakh and consider the Tanakh the Word of God same as the New Testament.


Zion is mentioned around 161 times in the Tanakh. Without the Tanakh, the term"Zion" would not be popular for many Jewish people around the world. This of course has nothing to do with Christians, as Zion existed long before Christians came into existence as a group of people.  

Quote

Several centuries before Dr. Herzl introduced Zionism after picking up this idea from his British Protestant allies, Christian Zionism has been around in some Protestant circles of colonial era under the name of Dispensationalism or so-called Restoration of the Jews. People who invented it wanted to get rid of the Jews,

 

Lol, Many Jewish people have made their home in the UK. While Jewish people were expelled from England in 1260, the Protestants did eventually realize that many Jewish people are wonderful citizens and are welcome in the UK.

Out of curiosity, do you think Egypt wanted to get rid of the Hebrews, and thus "invented" Moses taking them to the land G-d promised them? I don't. Why? Egypt reaped the benefits of having Hebrew slaves.


While the Jewish people are not slaves in the UK, the UK knows how much many Jewish people help make the UK a blessed country. It's not rocket science that many Jewish people have made very positive contributions to the UK in areas such as science, business, and other areas of growth.

The UK government doesn't want Jewish people to go; it was the German government under Hitler who scapegoated Jewish people and wanted them eradicated, not the UK's. Big difference there.

Similarly, many Jewish people call the USA their home. Protestant Americans have no desire to force the Jewish people to Israel. We understand the great contributions many Jewish people make to the USA and how they bless the USA. There's a reason that much of the Jewish population in the world is in the USA.

Doesn't the USA have the world's biggest Jewish population? The USA is a Protestant-dominated country, though NOT a Christian country - thanks to freedom of religion!!! :)

(Horribly, both Protestant and Catholic Christians have disobeyed Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors as oneself and love enemies, so even "Christian countries" disobey Jesus Christ.)

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send them to Palestine, turn them in a typical colonial Western nation and somehow by doing it trigger the Apocalypse and the Second Coming.

Do you believe that's why G-d sent the Children of Israel to the land of Canaan via Moses, then Moses' successor Joshua? (This was of course long before a Roman Emperor named the area in question a variant

Quote


Zionism is a fundamentally anti-Jewish, destructive and heretical ideology, because it undermines the very foundations of Judaism, according to which we must wait patiently for the Messiah and not to try playing supposedly redemptive political games by physical means. There is nothing redemptive about the State of "Israel". Zionism is the epitome of anti-Jewishness, because this ideology masquerades as Jewish, destroys Judaism from within and replaces peaceful and kind Jewish values by a murderous worship of blood and soil.

G-d promised that He would bring back the Children of Israel from where He had scattered them. Is G-d then anti-Jewish in your opinion?

Did the Children of Israel wait for the Messiah, or did they follow Moses' successor Joshua and take over the land of Canaan by physical means?

The Messiah wasn't even promised to the Children of Israel till they insisted to be like the pagan nations, hmm? G-d knew that they would reject Him as King. He had Samuel anoint Saul, who He later rejected as King. Then, G-d chose King David, who fought against the Philistines and took Jerusalem by physical means.

Was the Battle of Jericho peaceful, in your opinion? Did all the people in Jericho survive, or just Rahab and those with her?

Did Samuel congratulate Saul for being peaceful and kind to the enemies of Israel?

Was David kind to the Philistines he was attacking? What was the price again that he paid to marry the daughter of King Saul? How many foreskins??? Foreskins of whom???

Quote



may17-03-646.jpg

Again, Jewish people are diverse, and there are many Jewish people who believe G-d's promise that bring the Children of Israel back to the land He promised them.

G-d promised to regather the Children of Israel to their Promised land long before Christians ever existed as a people group.

Just like G-d used King Cyrus the Great of Persia to allow the Children of Israel to go back to the Promised Land, so G-d used the British Empire and allow the Children of Israel to back to the Promised Land.

However, neither King Cyrus the Great "invented" Zionism, nor the British Empire. Both powerful entities were used by G-d to fulfill His promises to His chosen people, the Children of Israel. G-d uses whoever He wills for His purpose.

Peace and G-d bless you

Edited by Christianlady

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46 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

Salam Yoel,

I don't remember you accusing Christians of inventing Zionism before? Christians didn't "invent"the Tanakh, though many Christians read the Tanakh and consider the Tanakh the Word of God same as the New Testament.


Zion is mentioned around 161 times in the Tanakh. Without the Tanakh, the term"Zion" would not be popular for many Jewish people around the world. This of course has nothing to do with Christians, as Zion existed long before Christians came into existence as a group of people.  

Lol, Many Jewish people have made their home in the UK. While Jewish people were expelled from England in 1260, the Protestants did eventually realize that many Jewish people are wonderful citizens and are welcome in the UK.

Out of curiosity, do you think Egypt wanted to get rid of the Hebrews, and thus "invented" Moses taking them to the land G-d promised them? I don't. Why? Egypt reaped the benefits of having Hebrew slaves.


While the Jewish people are not slaves in the UK, the UK knows how much many Jewish people help make the UK a blessed country. It's not rocket science that many Jewish people have made very positive contributions to the UK in areas such as science, business, and other areas of growth.

The UK government doesn't want Jewish people to go; it was the German government under Hitler who scapegoated Jewish people and wanted them eradicated, not the UK's. Big difference there.

Similarly, many Jewish people call the USA their home. Protestant Americans have no desire to force the Jewish people to Israel. We understand the great contributions many Jewish people make to the USA and how they bless the USA. There's a reason that much of the Jewish population in the world is in the USA.

Doesn't the USA have the world's biggest Jewish population? The USA is a Protestant-dominated country, though NOT a Christian country - thanks to freedom of religion!!! :)

(Horribly, both Protestant and Catholic Christians have disobeyed Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors as oneself and love enemies, so even "Christian countries" disobey Jesus Christ.)

Do you believe that's why G-d sent the Children of Israel to the land of Canaan via Moses, then Moses' successor Joshua? (This was of course long before a Roman Emperor named the area in question a variant

G-d promised that He would bring back the Children of Israel from where He had scattered them. Is G-d then anti-Jewish in your opinion?

Did the Children of Israel wait for the Messiah, or did they follow Moses' successor Joshua and take over the land of Canaan by physical means?

The Messiah wasn't even promised to the Children of Israel till they insisted to be like the pagan nations, hmm? G-d knew that they would reject Him as King. He had Samuel anoint Saul, who He later rejected as King. Then, G-d chose King David, who fought against the Philistines and took Jerusalem by physical means.

Was the Battle of Jericho peaceful, in your opinion? Did all the people in Jericho survive, or just Rahab and those with her?

Did Samuel congratulate Saul for being peaceful and kind to the enemies of Israel?

Was David kind to the Philistines he was attacking? What was the price again that he paid to marry the daughter of King Saul? How many foreskins??? Foreskins of whom???

Again, Jewish people are diverse, and there are many Jewish people who believe G-d's promise that bring the Children of Israel back to the land He promised them.

G-d promised to regather the Children of Israel to their Promised land long before Christians ever existed as a people group.

Just like G-d used King Cyrus the Great of Persia to allow the Children of Israel to go back to the Promised Land, so G-d used the British Empire and allow the Children of Israel to back to the Promised Land.

However, neither King Cyrus the Great "invented" Zionism, nor the British Empire. Both powerful entities were used by G-d to fulfill His promises to His chosen people, the Children of Israel. G-d uses whoever He wills for His purpose.

Peace and G-d bless you

 

Frankly, I don't understand what you are trying to tell me and while you may not remember it, we did have already several conversations on this subject before.

If you consider yourself Christian, please be honest and admit that traditional churches believe in replacement theology, according to which the Church became the new Israel after the Chist. All those prophecies, whether taken literally or not, apply only to Christians who in communion with the Church, the chosen Bride of Jesus Christ. This is the classical Patristic tradition.

You are entitled to believe in your sola scriptura doctrine, but please don't impose it on the Jews, Muslims or traditional Christians, e.g. Greek or Russian Orthodox...

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1 hour ago, Christianlady said:

Many Jewish people have made their home in the UK. While Jewish people were expelled from England in 1260, the Protestants did eventually realize that many Jewish people are wonderful citizens and are welcome in the UK.

...

Similarly, many Jewish people call the USA their home. Protestant Americans have no desire to force the Jewish people to Israel. We understand the great contributions many Jewish people make to the USA and how they bless the USA.

 

Similarly, many Jewish people call Russia, Argentina, France, Cuba, Morocco, Iran their home. If this is the case, what is your point of pushing Zionist ideology here? Are your aware that from political perspective, so-called "Israel" is a colonial apartheid state created by ethnic cleansing of indigenous population and run mostly by fascist parties? That this little banana republic with nukes is the worst disgrace of Jews and Judaism ever?

 

What's Jewish about the Zionist state anyway, besides the technical name? You can say that London and New York are more Jewish. Traditional Orthodox Jews are visible in Brooklyn than in "Israel".

Edited by Yoel

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11 minutes ago, Yoel said:

 

Frankly, I don't understand what you are trying to tell me and while you may not remember it, we did have already several conversations on this subject before.

Salam Yoel,

I remember we had discussions on if Jewish people who believe in Jesus as the Christ are truly Jewish. My Jewish friends who have accepted Yeshua (Jesus) as the Mashiach (Christ) still consider themselves Jewish, though you don't consider them Jewish, yeah?

I also remember you not believing that Jewish people who support Israel are Jewish, correct? However, many Jewish people disagree with you on that.

Oh, and also I remember you saying that Jewish is a religion, not a group of people based on ancestors. Yes? However, many Jewish people don't believe in G-d... yet they are still Jewish.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Yoel said:

If you consider yourself Christian, please be honest and admit that traditional churches believe in replacement theology, according to which the Church became the new Israel after the Chist.

That's my point here in a previous reply to you:

"Interestingly, people can accuse people of other groups of anything. You accuse Protestant Christians of starting Zionism (when many Protestant and Catholic Christians erroneously thought that God had rejected the Jews - hence feeding the horrible antisemitism in both Protestant and Catholic circles. :( ) Some Christians in the past accused Jews of killing a Christian child as well as other horrible crimes? Are either accusations correct? I doubt it. "

Many Protestant and Catholic Christians though that God rejected the Jews and replaced them with Christians - hence the replacement theology. Replacement theology is not Zionism  It's actually anti-Zionist, which is why groups like the KKK who hate Israel so much.

Quote

All those prophecies, whether taken literally or not, apply only to Christians who in communion with the Church, the chosen Bride of Jesus Christ. This is the classical Patristic tradition.

This is one reason why the Crusades happened, because Christians thought that the land of Israel now belonged to them. It's horrible and it's wrong. I reject replacement theology; it's not Biblical. The Jews have the right to the Promised Land; Christians do not replace the Jews.

Jesus Christ by the way talked about the trampling of Jeruslame by the Gentiles.

They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. - Luke 21:24 (NIV)

Well, the Gentiles did trample on Jerusalem, hmm? Roman Empire did, and then the Byzantine Empire, and then the Arab Empire, the Ottoman Empire (forgive me if I skip any empires), and the English Empire... (English are Gentiles too)
 

Quote

You are entitled to believe in your sola scriptura doctrine,

Thank you.

Quote

but please don't impose it on the Jews, Muslims or traditional Christians, e.g. Greek or Russian Orthodox...

I explain what i believe and why. I also believe in agreeing to disagree. If anyone doesn't want to discuss with me, they are free not to discuss with me.

Peace and God bless you

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Just now, Christianlady said:

Salam Yoel,

I remember we had discussions on if Jewish people who believe in Jesus as the Christ are truly Jewish. My Jewish friends who have accepted Yeshua (Jesus) as the Mashiach (Christ) still consider themselves Jewish, though you don't consider them Jewish, yeah?

I also remember you not believing that Jewish people who support Israel are Jewish, correct? However, many Jewish people disagree with you on that.

Oh, and also I remember you saying that Jewish is a religion, not a group of people based on ancestors. Yes? However, many Jewish people don't believe in G-d... yet they are still Jewish.

 

 

 

I am not into what Muslims call takfir, proclaiming individuals as heretics. But some views are traditional in Judaism, while some are not. Zionism is heretical, because besides being a secular reactionary nationalistic ideology, it turns upside down our basic eschatological beliefs.

Jewish people who don't believe in God is by definition an oxymoron. Exactly the same as "secular Shia" or "non-practicing Protestants". Yes, nowadays every combination of identities is possible. I may consider myself a three-headed monkey, but this consideration does not make this identity historically authentic. Jews are historically a concrete religious group.

Regarding Jesus, there were large Jewish groups in medieval Persia who accepted the Islamic prophet Isa. Not traditional for most Jews, but not a problem. But if the title of Messiah involved worshiping him as a god who became flesh, postulating a tripled separation in God's essence and abolishing the Jewish law - then it's a big problem.

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13 minutes ago, Yoel said:

 

Similarly, many Jewish people call Russia, Argentina, France, Cuba, Morocco, Iran their home.

True. However, my point is that many Jewish people find a home in 2 Protestant-dominated countries. The UK and the USA had/have many Protestant people who welcome Jews. They don't want to force them to go anywhere, including Israel.

Quote

If this is the case, what is your point of pushing Zionist ideology here?

I stand up for my Jewish friends on Shiachat. They don't come here, though I've invited one of my Jewish friends to come here. She won't. Her reason? "Muslims hate us"

Quote

Are your aware that from political perspective, so-called "Israel" is a colonial apartheid state created by ethnic cleansing of indigenous population and run mostly by fascist parties? That this state is a worst disgrace of Jews and Judaism ever?

Do you believe same concerning Israel during the time of King David? How many Non-Jews did King David kill? And King Saul? And the Children of Israel before God gave them a human king - from the time of Moses till the time of the prophet Samuel? 

Peace and God bless you

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2 minutes ago, Yoel said:

I am not into what Muslims call takfir, proclaiming individuals as heretics. But some views are traditional in Judaism, while some are not. Zionism is heretical, because besides being a secular reactionary nationalistic ideology, it turns upside down our basic eschatological beliefs.

Salam Yoel,

Why do you not believe that what King David did to the Jebusites is not "heretical"? In my opinion, King David is the founder of Zionism, because he conquered the fortress of Zion.

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Jewish people who don't believe in God is by definition an oxymoron. Exactly the same as "secular Shia" or "non-practicing Protestants". Yes, nowadays every combination of identities is possible.

Lol true. :)

In the times of Moses for example, any Child of Israel who didn't believe in God would be killed or expelled, correct?

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I may consider myself a three-headed monkey, but this consideration does not make this identity historically authentic.

Lol. Great point. however, you don't consider yourself a 3 headed monkey. :) Whereas, Jewish people do consider themselves Jewish.

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Jews are historically a concrete religious group.

True, but without strict commands that prohibit apostasy, that goes away. There's a reason why G-d gave the Children of Israel such strict laws with severe punishments for breaking those laws.

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Regarding Jesus, there were large Jewish groups in medieval Persia who accepted the Islamic prophet Isa. Not traditional for most Jews, but not a problem.

That's cool! :)

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But if the title of Messiah involved worshiping him as a god who became flesh, postulating a tripled separation in God's essence and abolishing the Jewish law - then it's a big problem.

There is a reason why Jesus was accused of blasphemy by the religious leaders of Israel. And, they did what they believed the Law of Moses commanded them to do: have him executed for blasphemy. I understand that. If Jesus were not speaking the Truth, the he would have been guilty of blasphemy. However, I believe Jesus always speaks the truth.

Thanks for explaining, and I personally agree to disagree with you.

Peace and God bless you

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7 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

 Replacement theology is not Zionism  It's actually anti-Zionist, which is why groups like the KKK who hate Israel so much.

 

 

 

That's precisely my point. I am an anti-Zionist. Most Hasidic Jews are anti-Zionist and reject the existence of the State of Israel, though tactical positions what to do about it may vary. There is no place for Zionism in Orthodox or traditional Catholic Christianity either. Most people on this website are probable not big fans of Zionism. The world does not orbit around Zionism, you know. There are many good reason to honestly say what "Israel" really is, a little racist apartheid state armed with nukes and full of lunatic ambitions. What's so Jewish about it?

Replacement theology is at least consistent and traditional. Obviously, I don't agree with it, but I see where it comes from and may appreciate philosophical and ethical works written by Christian saints and mystics.

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20 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

You accuse Protestant Christians of starting Zionism

 

I am just stating a well known and documented historical fact. Some Jesuit and Protestant theologians were the first who suggested to gather the Jews in Palestine by political means and to create a modern nation-state for them. Centuries before any known Jew suggested it.

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24 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

Do you believe same concerning Israel during the time of King David? How many Non-Jews did King David kill?

 

King David was a prophet, a saintly infallible person who received direct commands from God. He never killed any non-Jew as such. He did kill idolaters who practiced human sacrifices and other horrible things, and who refused to cooperate peacefully with the believers.

Edited by Yoel

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