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My Argument Against the Baha'i Faith

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Similar to Pascal's wager, I present the following argument against the Baha'i Faith:

  1. If I, a Muslim, am right, then you, a Baha'i, will burn in hell for eternity.
  2. If you, a Baha'i, are right, then I, a Muslim, will experience temporary remoteness from God and eventually, enjoy the all-highest paradise. 

To elaborate, according to the Baha'i Faith, hell and heaven are not literal places, but states of being. Hell is being remote from God and heaven is being close to God. All of the descriptions of heaven and hell provided in the Quran and ahadith are metaphorical. For example, fire represents unbelief and hoor al-ayn represent hidden meanings of revelation. Not to mention that hell is temporary and all souls will eventually enjoy the all-highest paradise. It reminds me of this verse:

And they (Jews) say, "Never will the Fire touch us, except for a few days." Say, "Have you taken a covenant with Allah? For Allah will never break His covenant. Or do you say about Allah that which you do not know?" (Quran 2:80)

By the way, Jews until today believe that the duration of hell is no more than 11 months.

Baha'i Belief

We can, through our prayers, help every soul to gradually attain this high station, even if it has failed to reach it in this world. The progress of the soul does not come to an end with death. It rather starts along a new line. Bahá’u’lláh teaches that great and far-reaching possibilities await the soul in the other world. Spiritual progress in that realm is infinite, and no man, while on this earth, can visualize its full power and extent.”

(Lights of Guidance, p. 204)

Jewish Belief

One custom says that a soul needs a maximum of 11 months for purification, which is why, when a parent dies, the kaddish (memorial prayer) is recited for 11 months. Even if a soul enters Gehennom (hell), it is not eternal. [1]

The period of time in Gehinnom does not exceed 12 months, and then ascends to take his place on Olam Ha-Ba (The World to Come). [2]

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3 hours ago, Ali6 said:

Similar to Pascal's wager, I present the following argument against the Baha'i Faith:

  1. If I, a Muslim, am right, then you, a Baha'i, will burn in hell for eternity.
  2. If you, a Baha'i, are right, then I, a Muslim, will experience temporary remoteness from God and eventually, enjoy the all-highest paradise. 

To elaborate, according to the Baha'i Faith, hell and heaven are not literal places, but states of being. Hell is being remote from God and heaven is being close to God. All of the descriptions of heaven and hell provided in the Quran and ahadith are metaphorical. For example, fire represents unbelief and hoor al-ayn represent hidden meanings of revelation. Not to mention that hell is temporary and all souls will eventually enjoy the all-highest paradise. It reminds me of this verse:

And they (Jews) say, "Never will the Fire touch us, except for a few days." Say, "Have you taken a covenant with Allah? For Allah will never break His covenant. Or do you say about Allah that which you do not know?" (Quran 2:80)

By the way, Jews until today believe that the duration of hell is no more than 11 months.

Baha'i Belief

We can, through our prayers, help every soul to gradually attain this high station, even if it has failed to reach it in this world. The progress of the soul does not come to an end with death. It rather starts along a new line. Bahá’u’lláh teaches that great and far-reaching possibilities await the soul in the other world. Spiritual progress in that realm is infinite, and no man, while on this earth, can visualize its full power and extent.”

(Lights of Guidance, p. 204)

Jewish Belief

One custom says that a soul needs a maximum of 11 months for purification, which is why, when a parent dies, the kaddish (memorial prayer) is recited for 11 months. Even if a soul enters Gehennom (hell), it is not eternal. [1]

The period of time in Gehinnom does not exceed 12 months, and then ascends to take his place on Olam Ha-Ba (The World to Come). [2]

Salam aleykoum I didnt really understand where is your argument against the bahai faith ?

Just because they have a similar belief with the jews its an argument against them ?

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6 hours ago, alidu78 said:

Salam aleykoum I didnt really understand where is your argument against the bahai faith ?

Just because they have a similar belief with the jews its an argument against them ?

Please take a few minutes to study Pascal's Wager.  

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Well, belief isnt something that a person is...scared into. If someone was sharpening a sword and said they would chop you unless you became a jew, you would probably get chopped because you cant just...willfully choose what you believe based on fear of getting chopped.

 

Also, of course, a person could write up their own religion and just discuss how disbelief would put you in a place worse than hell, and of course you wouldnt just believe what they wrote out of fear of it.

 

Pascals wager in general just isnt a reasonable concept to follow or use.

Edited by iCambrian

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To discredit Baha'ism there is no need to make mystical arguments about heaven and hell. While the founder Baha'u'llah was imprisoned he would run around claiming in the clearest and most explicit manner that he, the imprisoned person, is Allah:

«انه لا اله الا انا المسجون الفرید» : بهاءالله، آثار قلم اعلی، ج 1، لوح 39

  «نیست خدایی جز من زندانی تنها»

"There is no God but me the lonely, the imprisoned." (Baha'u'llah, Athar-i Qalam-i Ala, vol. 1, no. 39)

 

 «لا اله الاّ انا المسجون الغریب الفرید» بهاءالله، آثار قلم اعلی، ج 3، لوح 230

«نیست خدایی جز من زندانی غریب تنها»

"There is no God but me the imprisoned, the stranger, the lonely." (Baha'u'llah, Athar-i Qalam-i Ala, vo3. 1, no. 230)

 

«كذلك امر ربك اذكان مسجوناً فی اخرب البلاد» بهاءالله، آثار قلم اعلی، ج 1، لوح 57

«اینگونه امر كرد پروردگارت، زمانی كه زندانی بود در خراب‌ترین شهرها»:

"Your Lord ordered in this manner while he was imprisoned in the most desolate of the lands" (Baha'u'llah, Athar-i Qalam-i Ala, vol. 1, no. 57)

 

The guy before him, the Bab was a completely mentally unstable man. He started his will by this completely retarded statement where he asks his successor, Azal, to testify that the Bab is God then to testify that Azal himself is God:

Name of Azal, testify that there is no God but I, the dearest beloved. Then testify that there is no God but you, the victorious and permanent.”

:hahaha:

Edited by hadez803

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@hadez803

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life." (John 14:6)

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life." (John 11:25)

Say: God, the True One, is My witness that neither the Scriptures of the world, nor all the books and writings in existence, shall, in this Day, avail you aught without this, the Living Book, Who proclaimeth in the midmost heart of creation: “Verily, there is none other God but Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.” (Aqdas, k168)

In Islam, the 99 names of God include the Guide, the Truth, the Ever Living One, the Resurrector, the Knower of All, and the Perfectly Wise. [1]

Yet, neither Jesus nor Bahaullah (who claimed to be the second-coming of Jesus) ascribed to divinity. Even some Sufi masters (eg, Mansur al-Hallaj) have been attributed with such statements but once again, none of which is meant to be taken literally. 

This is an esoteric concept that describes the soul as a mirror and for those who have cleaned and polished their souls so much that they can reflect the sun (God) and its attributes. 

Whether you understand this concept or not, the truth of the matter is that Bahaullah never claimed to be God. 

Edited by Ali6

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9 hours ago, Ali6 said:

Yet, neither Jesus nor Bahaullah (who claimed to be the second-coming of Jesus) ascribed to divinity. Even some Sufi masters (eg, Mansur al-Hallaj) have been attributed with such statements but once again, none of which is meant to be taken literally. 

This is an esoteric concept that describes the soul as a mirror and for those who have cleaned and polished their souls so much that they can reflect the sun (God) and its attributes. 

Whether you understand this concept or not, the truth of the matter is that Bahaullah never claimed to be God. 

1- Are you a Baha'i?

2- Did you even read what I posted. Baha'u'llah stating in the most explicit manner while he was imprisoned that HE THE IMPRISONED IS Allah? No one could claim to be God in a more clear manner. He didn't stop just there. He even went one step further and state that he is the creator of Gods:

"All Gods became Gods from the flow of my affairs and all Lords became Lords by the overflowing of my decree (kul al-uluh min rashhi ‘amri ta’llahat wa kul al-rubub min ṭafh hukmi tarabbat)." (Abdu’l-Baha, Makatib, vol. 2, p. 255)

No matter how hard you try to justify these statements, there is no denial that this person is openly claiming that he is Allah and displaying extreme forms of heresy.

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38 minutes ago, hadez803 said:

1- Are you a Baha'i?

2- Did you even read what I posted. Baha'u'llah stating in the most explicit manner while he was imprisoned that HE THE IMPRISONED IS Allah? No one could claim to be God in a more clear manner. He didn't stop just there. He even went one step further and state that he is the creator of Gods:

"All Gods became Gods from the flow of my affairs and all Lords became Lords by the overflowing of my decree (kul al-uluh min rashhi ‘amri ta’llahat wa kul al-rubub min ṭafh hukmi tarabbat)." (Abdu’l-Baha, Makatib, vol. 2, p. 255)

No matter how hard you try to justify these statements, there is no denial that this person is openly claiming that he is Allah and displaying extreme forms of heresy.

1. I'm not a Baha'i.

2. I read what you posted and even pointed out that in the Aqdas, paragraph 168, Bahaullah wrote: "Verily, there is none other God but Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise." However, he didn't claim to be God anymore than Jesus did in John 11:25 or 14:6. As I mentioned before, whether or not you understand or accept the esoteric concept behind these statements, the truth of the matter is that neither Jesus nor Bahaullah ascribed to divinity. Let me be clear that I'm not justifying these statements. Rather, I'm only notifying you and neither Bahaullah nor his followers interpreted them in this way. Only misinformed critics like yourself take it literally.

Lastly, I have little regard for any quotation (eg, Makatib) from unauthenticated manuscripts of the Baha'i Faith. It is the same as if a Christian quoted unauthenticated ahadith from our manuscripts. 

Edited by Ali6

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Prophet Isa never claimed to be god, however, Bahaullah did. There are no quotes from Prophet Isa regarding this that are authentic or from him (original bible, original language), however the quote from Bahaullah is from himself and authentic. Has any Bahai refuted the authenticity of these quotes that you're comparing to false narration used against Shias? Please bring forth refutation of the authenticity of these quotes from reputable Bahia sources if you think these quotes are false.

Bahaullah explicitly claims to be god, and not just manifestation of god (which is also wrong).

"There is no God but me the lonely, the imprisoned."  God is not lonely, nor imprisoned, but Bahaullah was.

 

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2 hours ago, Ali6 said:

1. I'm not a Baha'i.

Ok. Then what religion do you follow? I can't debate with someone whose religion I do not know. And please for the sake of the argument, tell me with a simple yes or no: In your opinion, is Baha'u'llah an impostor and a fake Prophet? Sorry for being so blunt but I couldn't figure out your opinion on this issue from your posts.

 

2 hours ago, Ali6 said:

2. I read what you posted and even pointed out that in the Aqdas, paragraph 168, Bahaullah wrote: "Verily, there is none other God but Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise." However, he didn't claim to be God anymore than Jesus did in John 11:25 or 14:6. As I mentioned before, whether or not you understand or accept the esoteric concept behind these statements, the truth of the matter is that neither Jesus nor Bahaullah ascribed to divinity. Let me be clear that I'm not justifying these statements. Rather, I'm only notifying you and neither Bahaullah nor his followers interpreted them in this way. Only misinformed critics like yourself take it literally.

I don't care about the lies that Baha'is spoon-feed to outsiders about their beliefs. You can go your way and call me a misinformed critic, rest assured I am not. I have read way too much Baha'i scripture to not be easily frightened away by these accusations and allegations that are a standard method of personal attacks that Baha'i apologists use in their discussions when they are in a situation of check-mate. Argue using the Bible with a Christian. We Muslims consider it distorted specially those statements where Jesus makes claims about being God. That is why trinity based Christianity is considered Shirk in Islam. Baha'u'llah made the same claims but in a more severe and explicit manner and no matter how much you try to hide this fact, justify it and ignore it or claim I am misinformed and shouldn't take it literally, the facts on the ground will not change. I have posted more than enough quotes from authentic Baha'i scripture. The guy plainly claims he is God, case closed.

3 hours ago, Ali6 said:

Lastly, I have little regard for any quotation (eg, Makatib) from unauthenticated manuscripts of the Baha'i Faith. It is the same as if a Christian quoted unauthenticated ahadith from our manuscripts. 

Really? You didn't know those quotes were from authentic Baha'i scripture. You see I don't like posting links to their dirty official library that is available online due to the immense amount of shirk and heresy in their books, but for your information here is a direct link to "makatib" vol. 2. p. 255:

http://reference.bahai.org/fa/t/ab/MA2/ma2-255.html

The section where he claims he is the creator of Gods is on the 4th and 5th lines. If you think anything else I have posted is from an unauthentic book, don't be shy ask and I will give you a direct link to their authenticated works.

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@hadez803 @Shiawarrior313

It was a pleasure conversing with you both. Not wanting to sound redundant, I want to end our discussions on a positive note. I love your passion and perhaps we should invite Baha'is to a live recorded debate and distribute it for others to watch. Regardless of our differences, they are our brothers in humanity and that is enough of a reason to treat them with respect and uphold their human rights whenever they are violated. 

Your brother in Twelverism,

Ali ibn Fuwad

 

Edited by Ali6

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@hadez803

I hope that you enjoyed your eid yesterday.

In regards to your quote below, I doubted its authenticity at first, but after you provided me the link, I realized that I was hasty to dismiss it. 

On 7/3/2016 at 5:07 PM, hadez803 said:

"All Gods became Gods from the flow of my affairs and all Lords became Lords by the overflowing of my decree (kul al-uluh min rashhi ‘amri ta’llahat wa kul al-rubub min ṭafh hukmi tarabbat)." (Abdu’l-Baha, Makatib, vol. 2, p. 255)

My understanding now is that its correct translation is...

"All gods became gods from the flow of my affairs and all lords became lords by the overflowing of my decree."

The word, "gods", doesn't necessarily mean deities. For example, the Torah uses the word, "elohim" (plural of "el" meaning G/god), when referring to judges. [1]

See examples below.

Then his master shall bring him unto the judges (הָ֣אֱלֹהִ֔ים); he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. (Exodus 21:6) [2]

If a man shall deliver unto his neighbour money or stuff to keep, and it be stolen out of the man's house; if the thief be found, let him pay double. If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges (הָֽאֱלֹהִ֑ים), to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods. (Exodus 22:7-8) [3]

On a personal note, I don't understand why you are bent on portraying this religion as polytheistic when they profess otherwise. Wouldn't they know more about their religion than you? It's like a Sunni who is bent on portraying Shia Islam as polytheistic. It would be sufficient for him to simply ask our scholars on the subject of tawheed.

Edited by Ali6

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17 hours ago, Ali6 said:

The word, "gods", doesn't necessarily mean deities. For example, the Torah uses the word, "elohim" (plural of "el" meaning G/god), when referring to judges. [1]

See examples below.

Then his master shall bring him unto the judges (הָ֣אֱלֹהִ֔ים); he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. (Exodus 21:6) [2]

If a man shall deliver unto his neighbour money or stuff to keep, and it be stolen out of the man's house; if the thief be found, let him pay double. If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges (הָֽאֱלֹהִ֑ים), to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods. (Exodus 22:7-8) [3]

While you're at it why don't you cite some texts from some amazonian tribe as well...

"Olooh"  is the plural of "ilah" which means God in Arabic. We are discussing an Arabic word in an Arabic context, rendering the semantics of this statement in another language/belief totally irrelevant. The founder of the cult Baha'u'llah was a polytheist babbling out any nonsense that came to his mind. Case closed.

 

17 hours ago, Ali6 said:

 

On a personal note, I don't understand why you are bent on portraying this religion as polytheistic when they profess otherwise.

 

Because it is polytheistic per the scripture, regardless of the claims of the adherents.

 

Quote

Wouldn't they know more about their religion than you? It's like a Sunni who is bent on portraying Shia Islam as polytheistic. It would be sufficient for him to simply ask our scholars on the subject of tawheed.

No it isn't sufficient because we base our judgments on fact not opinion. And the teachings of Islam forbid Taqlid in the fundamental teachings of the faith like Tawheed unlike the Baha'i cult where the followers are ordered to blindly accept whatever is spoonfed to them.

Your arguments sound awfully like those of Baha'is bearing all the hallmarks and the standard arguments that I have frequently encountered while debating them. And one user stated that you always show your support for enemies of Islam:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235039703-bahais-in-iran/?do=findComment&comment=2932591

so watch it...

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2 hours ago, hadez803 said:

While you're at it why don't you cite some texts from some amazonian tribe as well...

Although the Torah is not entirely preserved, we believe that it was revealed by God and therefore, we can learn a lot from it. Herein lies the difference.

2 hours ago, hadez803 said:

The founder of the cult Baha'u'llah was a polytheist babbling out any nonsense that came to his mind. Case closed.

I'm glad to know that you've already made up your mind. Honestly, you sound like a Sunni who is convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that Shia Islam is polytheistic. I have the same chance of convincing such a person as I have with you. 

2 hours ago, hadez803 said:

so watch it..

And peace be upon you.

Edited by Ali6

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15 minutes ago, Ali6 said:

I'm glad to know that you've already made up your mind.

Another Baha'i hallmark. Seriously, have you been attending Baha'i sessions?

 

15 minutes ago, Ali6 said:

 I have the same chance of convincing such a person as I have with you. 

Trying to convince me to accept Baha'i beliefs... Interesting.

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I have a family member that actually said one time that, "Muslims should convert to Baha'i as a way of countering terrorism and creating peace." I told him, "slam and Baha'i are like an apple and an orange. Muhammad (PBUH) will always have my deep respect. Baha'u'llah was a mad man."

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1 hour ago, kernel said:

I have a family member that actually said one time that, "Muslims should convert to Baha'i as a way of countering terrorism and creating peace." I told him, "slam and Baha'i are like an apple and an orange. Muhammad (PBUH) will always have my deep respect. Baha'u'llah was a mad man."

I'll just post a single document to show the extent that Baha'i leaders praised violence and terrorism.

Baha'ism was born out of Babism. Babism was a Qajar era ISIS whose laws were described like this by one Baha'i leader:

“The utterance of the [book or religion] of Bayan in the day of the appearance of his Highness A`la (meaning the Bab) was to behead, burn the books, destroy the monuments, and massacre [everyone] but those who believed [in the Bab’s religion] and verified it,” `Abdu’l-Baha, Makatib (Egypt: 1330 AH), vol. 2, p. 266;

Baha'u'llah praised these murderous orders by these statements:

“I [swear by] He who in His hand is my soul and my essence, a single letter from the Bayan is dearer to me than everything that is in the heavens and the earth,” Asad-Allah Fadil Mazandarani, Asrar al-athar khususi, vol. 5, p. 333;

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I admit, I don't have much knowledge surrounding the Bahai faith, but @Ali6 isn't kidding about his point about the usage of the word God and Elohim, and it's varied uses.   Also, one cannot be a Muslim unless they believe in the books of Allah SWT, and the messages, one of a few stipulations.  Even if the prior books have been corrupted, we should still seek knowledge and know whats in them and use the Qu'ran to take precedence over them. 

May I all remind you of Ibn Saba', who used the word for God in a similar way when he tried to say 'Ali was the God over people, who he himself was a "former" Jew.  Perhaps he was just poorly misunderstood because his idea of what God mean's differs from the mainstream populations.  

My own humble opinion:

To me Pascal's wager is just an inferior form if not maybe even an acceptable form of acknowledgement of God's existence,  Because to believe in God is also to fear God.    A person's individual actions are affected/impacted at the mere possibility a greater power existing and punishing them.   Versus a person who acts and behaves differently because they don't fear or concede to the possibility of a God existing. 

Is God not going to ask us what we did to acknowledge him outside of our prayers?  If one changes an action to a good one from a bad one assuming one did so following Pascal's wager,  that is manifested impact of God's existence.

From what I read it seems the Bahai's assert there is Unity of God, and thus only one God.  

  • Prayer in the Bahá'í Faith consists of obligatory prayer and devotional (general) prayer. Bahá'ís over the age of 15 must individually recite an obligatory prayer each day, using fixed words and form. In addition to the daily obligatory prayer, believers are directed to daily offer devotional prayer and to meditate and study sacred scripture. There is no set form for devotions and meditations, though the devotional prayers written by the central figures of the Bahá'í Faith and collected in prayer books are held in high esteem. Reading aloud of prayers from prayer books is a typical feature of Bahá'í gatherings.
  • Backbiting and gossip are prohibited and denounced.
  • Adult Bahá'ís in good health should observe a nineteen-day sunrise-to-sunset fast each year from 2 March through 20 March.
  • Bahá'ís are forbidden to drink alcohol or to take drugs, unless prescribed by doctors.
  • Sexual intercourse is only permitted between a husband and wife, and thus premarital, extramarital, and homosexual intercourse are forbidden. (See also Homosexuality and the Bahá'í Faith)
  • Gambling is forbidden.
  • Fanaticism is forbidden.
  • Adherence to ritual is discouraged, with the notable exception of the obligatory prayers.
  • Abstaining from partisan politics is required.

 

Bahá'ís repeat the phrase "Alláh-u-Abhá", a form of the Greatest Name, 95 times per day, as described by Bahá'u'lláh in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, sometimes using prayer beads.[3]

If in the Bahai prayers there is supplication to anyone other than Allah SWT, then I would see a case that their polytheistic.  

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43 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

I admit, I don't have much knowledge surrounding the Bahai faith, but Ali6 isn't kidding about his point about the usage of the word God and Elohim, and it's varied uses. 

We are speaking about the usage of the word God in the Arabic language. The semantics of another language in this regard are completely irrelevant.

 

49 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

If in the Bahai prayers there is supplication to anyone other than Allah SWT, then I would see a case that their polytheistic.  

There are more than enough instances where Baha'u'llah explicitly claims he is God. The Baha'i Qiblah is Baha'u'llah and he never prayed because he was God. The funny thing is no Baha'i has ever come forward to explain what Baha'is used to do during their prayers when their Qibla and God, Baha'u'llah was moving around or how in heavens sake they knew where he was and where to face when they wanted to pray to him.

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5 minutes ago, hadez803 said:

There are more than enough instances where Baha'u'llah explicitly claims he is God. The Baha'i Qiblah is Baha'u'llah and he never prayed because he was God. The funny thing is no Baha'i has ever come forward to explain what Baha'is used to do during their prayers when their Qibla and God, Baha'u'llah was moving around or how in heavens sake they knew where he was and where to face when they wanted to pray to him.

If I assume what you say is true, then indeed that's problematic.  But they're a peaceful people from what I've gathered.  Best to just leave them alone, if they can't reason why a human God is outside the confines of logic.

 

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Praise be to Allah. This thread made me ponder and it is best to be a Muslim because of the argument presented. It is true both Christianity and Islam has many signs but still the possibility of burning in hell for eternity is not something I want to risk. In Christianity the punishment is not as severe also I have allways quiestioned if Jesus really could be God.

Edited by Loveall

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