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StrugglingForTheLight

A brief logic that will reject fake representative

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Salam

Some hadiths may suggest certain people are such that they must be adhered to and followed. 

We know some hadiths suggest Dajjal will have "miracles" and do all sort of incredible things.

The problem is these hadiths don't go with reason.

When God wishes to guide a nation, he sends a Prophet with two clear proofs:

1. Present current real time miracles.

2. Everlasting proof in a form of book from him.

1 is used, because, a falsification method would be easily that a fake Prophet cannot preform miracles. However it's even further then that, they are actually proofs of the truthfulness of the Prophet.

This is why the "Dajjal" as passed on by hadiths is not true. That the reality is God will not give a fake Prophet or fake representative or fake one claiming to be God, to have miracles. It would invalidate a great part of Quran if these ahadith were true.

That said, we know there won't be "Prophets" after Mohammad....so there will not be an everlasting proof in a form of book regarding the truth of the message. Hence the Bab who realized he needed some proof to being a "representative of Imam Mahdi"  knew he had to have some sort of proof, and he tried that by his writing... but this really would upgrade him to a Prophet if his words were such they were above the capability of humans.

Now the Quran although seals Prophethood indicates there is a chosen family to Mohammad and they possess the authority of the Messenger and God.

Now for the issue to be not ambiguous.....the Quran implicitly and the Prophet explicitly indicated there would be 12 Leaders/successors and that there would be only 12 Ulil-Amr from us after the Prophet.

As we would need clear proof regarding their names, Allah [swt] out of his wisdom had his Prophet name them all, and there is only one indication of names that coincide with the number 12.

Just as God protected the Quran, he also made that there is one set of names designated by the Rasool in ahadith. 

Now the Quran shows for a person to have clear authority to be followed, he requires clear proof.

To be a representative of God, you be a door and leader and guide to humanity. Prophets are all leaders...but all appointed leaders not are Prophets.

However they do require clear proof and evidence. We cannot follow people without clear evidence. 

However, you cannot be a representative of God that is required to be followed by God and not be one of the Ulil-Amr in this day and age. This is going around the definition.

Likewise, if you are to lead the people and people are required to follow you by God, you are an "Imam" that God has made obligatory to be followed.

Yes there is a definition of "Imam" that has a higher spiritual meaning in Quran and indicates when a human is made to be the light to humanity and the companion in the journey that leads to God at all stages directly through guiding them through out, but this doesn't negate the primary meaning of "leader" and "representative of God" that applies to all people who God has made obligatory to follow.

There is no need to look beyond Imam Mahdi for such leaders, because, the ahadith are clear, he is the remaining one of God's proofs, there is no more proofs or leaders or guides or representatives AFTER Imam Mahdi. He is the last one. The remaining one.

There are some ahadith that contradict that, but, they go against reason for the reasons mentioned. We are required clear proofs for who to follow and there would be none for people without revelations after the 12th Imam or clear miracles that all witness.

Now this even predicted in Quran, that there would be a waiting period where the clear sign and indication of God's religion would not reach humanity but that there would be time it would. Even during Mohammad time, the clear proof was local, and was not widely spread to all humanity. However the Quran shows that one day, and believers are awaiting it, the sign and clear proof will become manifest. 

According to our ahadith and according to reason, this is obviously with the Zuhoor of Imam Mahdi. 

That said, until the "sign" is hidden, the zuhoor of Imam Mahdi has not happened. And it go against reason that God would have us to be obligated to follow "representatives" of Imam who have no such clear proof with them and that he makes his religion and the path of submission to him unclear without clear evidence.

 

 

 

 

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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1 hour ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Salam

Some hadiths may suggest certain people are such that they must be adhered to and followed. 

We know some hadiths suggest Dajjal will have "miracles" and do all sort of incredible things.

The problem is these hadiths don't go with reason.

When God wishes to guide a nation, he sends a Prophet with two clear proofs:

1. Present current real time miracles.

2. Everlasting proof in a form of book from him.

1 is used, because, a falsification method would be easily that a fake Prophet cannot preform miracles. However it's even further then that, they are actually proofs of the truthfulness of the Prophet.

This is why the "Dajjal" as passed on by hadiths is not true. That the reality is God will not give a fake Prophet or fake representative or fake one claiming to be God, to have miracles. It would invalidate a great part of Quran if these ahadith were true.

That said, we know there won't be "Prophets" after Mohammad....so there will not be an everlasting proof in a form of book regarding the truth of the message. Hence the Bab who realized he needed some proof to being a "representative of Imam Mahdi"  knew he had to have some sort of proof, and he tried that by his writing... but this really would upgrade him to a Prophet if his words were such they were above the capability of humans.

Now the Quran although seals Prophethood indicates there is a chosen family to Mohammad and they possess the authority of the Messenger and God.

Now for the issue to be not ambiguous.....the Quran implicitly and the Prophet explicitly indicated there would be 12 Leaders/successors and that there would be only 12 Ulil-Amr from us after the Prophet.

As we would need clear proof regarding their names, Allah [swt] out of his wisdom had his Prophet name them all, and there is only one indication of names that coincide with the number 12.

Just as God protected the Quran, he also made that there is one set of names designated by the Rasool in ahadith. 

Now the Quran shows for a person to have clear authority to be followed, he requires clear proof.

To be a representative of God, you be a door and leader and guide to humanity. Prophets are all leaders...but all appointed leaders not are Prophets.

However they do require clear proof and evidence. We cannot follow people without clear evidence. 

However, you cannot be a representative of God that is required to be followed by God and not be one of the Ulil-Amr in this day and age. This is going around the definition.

Likewise, if you are to lead the people and people are required to follow you by God, you are an "Imam" that God has made obligatory to be followed.

Yes there is a definition of "Imam" that has a higher spiritual meaning in Quran and indicates when a human is made to be the light to humanity and the companion in the journey that leads to God at all stages directly through guiding them through out, but this doesn't negate the primary meaning of "leader" and "representative of God" that applies to all people who God has made obligatory to follow.

There is no need to look beyond Imam Mahdi for such leaders, because, the ahadith are clear, he is the remaining one of God's proofs, there is no more proofs or leaders or guides or representatives AFTER Imam Mahdi. He is the last one. The remaining one.

There are some ahadith that contradict that, but, they go against reason for the reasons mentioned. We are required clear proofs for who to follow and there would be none for people without revelations after the 12th Imam or clear miracles that all witness.

Now this even predicted in Quran, that there would be a waiting period where the clear sign and indication of God's religion would not reach humanity but that there would be time it would. Even during Mohammad time, the clear proof was local, and was not widely spread to all humanity. However the Quran shows that one day, and believers are awaiting it, the sign and clear proof will become manifest. 

According to our ahadith and according to reason, this is obviously with the Zuhoor of Imam Mahdi. 

That said, until the "sign" is hidden, the zuhoor of Imam Mahdi has not happened. And it go against reason that God would have us to be obligated to follow "representatives" of Imam who have no such clear proof with them and that he makes his religion and the path of submission to him unclear without clear evidence.

1. You were not brief

2. You were not logical.

3. Another futile attempt to discredit the marajae.

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19 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

I wasn't actually thinking of Marjaas, I was thinking more of the fake Yamani and groups claiming to represent Imam Mahdi as in they have direct access to him etc.

I stand corrected then brother. Apologies.

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It is true that Allah will not be giving dajjal miracles, however, this will not stop him from faking it through black magic / jinns and advanced technologies. The masses will not be able to or will have a hard time distinguishing fake from real for something they have no knowledge about. Imagine if he can move extremely fast, walk on water, fly, etc... using various never before heard of anti gravity technology, who would be able to disprove him?

This has already occurred in Iran a few decades ago (can't find online reference), where a British agent claimed to be a cleric of high stature, as means to remove support from the masses in support of nationalization of oil. He would do miraculous actions such as:

- Use capacitor in his Kane to give electric shock (something unknown to the people)

- Use fake beard to make it look like he has god given capability to grow his long beard within a day

- Use fireproof material for his turban, where he would set it on fire and it would not burn

Through these technological tricks, he was able to fool great deal of people and Ulema couldn't disprove him. Now imagine what dajjal will do.

- Another example: The author of economic hitman : John Perkins, in an interview, said, in south America, the Christian missionaries would place microphones in the houses of the tribal villagers, and the next day, they would reveal to them of what they had said. They claimed god had given them the knowledge and god has also told them to leave the land (As was the goal of the missionaries to claim the land from the tribals).

 

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@StrugglingForTheLight,  Prophet Mohammed pbuhap in his Will said that Imam Mohammed son of Hasan al-Askari pbuh is the 12th Imam and that these are the Twelve Imams pbut, and then he said that the Imamate continues with the 12 Mahdis and the First Mahdi is the son of Imam al-Mahdi pbuh.

So how does this contradict with the narrations that Imam al-Mahdi pbuh is the 12th Imam and that these are the 12 Imams pbut? Imam Al-Mahdi pbuh is the Twelth and he is in higher rank than the 12 Mahdis pbut. Prophet's Will and the Narrations about 12 Mahdis after the Riser all proven to be authentic, the Will transmits from Imam Jafar al-Sadiq pbuh. 

Great Scholar like Sayeed al-Sadr r.a. did not see any contradictions or something going against reason in those narrations.

Sayed Muhammad Saadiq AlSader:"And from here Imam Al Mahdi pbuh will appoint a Khaleefa(successor)during his life, or at the end of his year,so that he will become the highest chief for the nation of the world of justice after him,and the first ruler from the period of the prefered and righteous ones of Allah" Mawsoo'a of Sayed Al Sader p.645 Tareekh Ma Ba'ad Al Thuhoor

Sheikh Korani who is considered to be one of those who are specialists according to Shia Twelvers about the signs of Imam Al Mahdi pbuh defends the Imamate of the 12 Mahdis pbut.

Sheikh AlKorani points out the Tawaator of the narrations of the Mahdis in discussing the words of AlBayathi AlAmeli the author of the book Sirat AlMustaqeem who said that the narration of the will is khabar ahaad :
And the meaning from his words may Allah have mercy on him[AlBayathi]:" Is that Shareef AlMurthatha may Allah have mercy on him defended about the narrations on the continuation of Takleef(religious accountability)and the general Imamate after Imam AlMahdi pbuh with his sons the Mahdyeen(Mahdis). And he said that this doesn't conflict with that the Imams pbut are 12 and not more because they are the origin and the ones who remain from their branches and their continuation. And he does not reject the words of AlMurthatha but excluding and taking responsibility at interpreting the hadeeth of the 12 Mahdis.As for his saying that its khabar ahaad/solitary reports, the reason is that he did not look at the multiple reports that we have mentioned and I have seen some of them mentioned in the sources of other than ours also! And he imagined may Allah have mercy on him that the Qyama is close to the nation of Imam AlMahdi pbuh, he didn't come with hadeeths from Ahlulbayt pbut and also his wrong interpretation from the non existence of the nation after their nation. So we do not agree that this is evidence of the short period of their nation pbut."
Mujam Mawthoo'i liHadeeth Imam AlMahdi pbuh p.305

 

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