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Imam Mahdi (a.s) is not Messiah?

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3 minutes ago, Faruk said:

I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. 

3 things: 

1) He a.s. died 

2) He a.s. did not know that people defied him a.s. 

3) The verse is about Judgment Day

 

 

Did you read what i posted?

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18 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Did you read what i posted?

I actually only read the Quranic verse.

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Your interpretation of verse 4:159 is not compatible with the verse I posted. 

Above that there is disagreement about the interpretation of verse 4:159 

Twelver scholar Muhammad Sarwar for example gives a diffirent explanation of the verse: 

Muhammad Sarwar: There will be no one among the People of the Book who will not believe (a belief of no value) in him (Jesus) before their deaths. On the Day of Judgment, (Jesus) will testify against them. 

 

Now read again what I posted.

Edited by Faruk

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On 5/23/2017 at 9:18 AM, Ya Allah Madad said:

Then what would be the correct interpretation.

Such narrations are of the time of 6th Imam (or even before that), much before the 12th current Imam.

The interpretation is the same as it's always been. Similar to when the Israelite were awaiting Moses, they didn't think he was born and in hiding. The meaning of the "an always present Imam on earth" is if the Imam isn't apparent like during Imam Ali's time, he's in an occultation like Moses before he was born. Occultations are always spoken of by Prophets to prepare their people for their trial. When Prophet Isa said, there will be a prophet after me named Ahmad, this declared the transfer of Imamate from him to Prophet Muhammed after his death, which was later passed on to Imam Ali. hence the addition of: (apparant or hidden) in hadiths. This means that when the Imam isn't born yet, it doesn't mean there isn't any Imam, it means he isn't apparent (visibly manifested in the flesh) as is highlighted in the narration of "A sun behind the clouds" comparisons. This means that if the sun is behind the cloud and you can't see it does not mean it is no longer there, and it will eventually inevitably reappear and you would obviously live your life accordingly instead of setting fire to your crops as if the sun is for ever gone. That is exactly what "knowing your Imam" entails, knowing him through what was transferred to us concerning him and his arrival and his purpose. The "knowing him" hadith wasn't supposed to be taken as evidence that he is born, otherwise what is the point the of a born but hiding imam at least in terms of being able to know him?? And please don't start with "We can prove it is possible" stuff, anything is possible! The question is, is it true? It is unfortunate because the birth issue serves as the biggest barrier keeping sunni from pursuing the path of Ahlulbayt. What better way to keep muslims divided then to give each of them a half truth. One sect believes in an imamate and denies a human Mahdi, and the other believes in a human Mahdi and denies Imamate. And there is no sect that creates its ideology based on evidence, instead each of them writes books to support their positions by starting with their "truth" and pursuing their evidence accordingly. What a state of affairs you guys have going on here, and Ironically the Jews who are always scapegoated as the source of misguidance seem to be the most consistent of their beliefs of the Messiah's role and his human birth, perhaps I'm better served if I make my next stop a synagogue. And btw Reviving the dead and curing the blind does not mean what you guys think it does. It refers to reviving the "Sunnah" or teachings of those who came before him and correcting their beliefs. And curing the blind is exactly what I've been trying to do, the only difference is that at his time people listened and weren't so entrenched in their own ways. Now the slaves have been given a job (artificial purpose) and a car so they must know everything there is to know about life. No reason to listen to anyone trying to wake them and offending their God (wasting their time). If you don't believe me, go to a Shia a scholar and mention something about a neighbor of yours made a good case that he's The Mahdi and observe his behavior...If by some chance he doesn't start cracking up like you just made the funniest joke ever to be told then Ignore everything I posted on this site. And if by some miracle he turned to you and asked you what his evidence was, then never ever leave that person's side.

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This is why the magicians refer to him as the Necromancer - One who resurrects the dead.

And no Gandalf is not the savior, he's the fake savior. He takes on the obvious or visible elements and events of "the savior" but he really isn't. And darker, evil vibes and tones are given to the the deeper essence and purpose of the real savior (unification,bowing to only 1,black tones,ring of Soloman etc..) because they know the real message he's going to come with. Remember that their method is called Babel, and means to confuse. It is not a coincidence that the wizard's real name is "MIthrandire" from the Sun god Mithra! And please don't tell me it's just a movie. These images of false gods get more views, attention, admiration, time, money, obedience (all kinds of spiritual power and authority over people) then most figures of our history combined. How many people know who Imam Mahdi is? Heck, until recently, most sunni muslims barely knew who he was.

Edited by Prince of spacetime

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On 26/05/2017 at 1:01 AM, Faruk said:

Your interpretation of verse 4:159 is not compatible with the verse I posted. 

Above that there is disagreement about the interpretation of verse 4:159 

Twelver scholar Muhammad Sarwar for example gives a diffirent explanation of the verse: 

Muhammad Sarwar: There will be no one among the People of the Book who will not believe (a belief of no value) in him (Jesus) before their deaths. On the Day of Judgment, (Jesus) will testify against them. 

 

Now read again what I posted.

Why do you say MY INTERPRETATION? It is not mine but the Imams a.s

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22 hours ago, Prince of spacetime said:

This is why the magicians refer to him as the Necromancer - One who resurrects the dead.

And no Gandalf is not the savior, he's the fake savior. He takes on the obvious or visible elements and events of "the savior" but he really isn't. And darker, evil vibes and tones are given to the the deeper essence and purpose of the real savior (unification,bowing to only 1,black tones,ring of Soloman etc..) because they know the real message he's going to come with. Remember that their method is called Babel, and means to confuse. It is not a coincidence that the wizard's real name is "MIthrandire" from the Sun god Mithra! And please don't tell me it's just a movie. These images of false gods get more views, attention, admiration, time, money, obedience (all kinds of spiritual power and authority over people) then most figures of our history combined. How many people know who Imam Mahdi is? Heck, until recently, most sunni muslims barely knew who he was.

Babel means to confuse. What language? 

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8 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

I'm very curious what your website is. Can you tell us? 

Sure you can. It's a new clock. But this clock has a pole reversal mechanism built into it. It will make the north pole in Antarctica, and the south pole where the north pole is.   

 

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On Tuesday, May 24, 2016 at 6:07 AM, sefket83 said:

I hold it more likely he will be born again naturally to a pious family

Since when is reincarnation an islamic belief?

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On Friday, May 26, 2017 at 2:56 AM, Prince of spacetime said:

One sect believes in an imamate and denies a human Mahdi, and the other believes in a human Mahdi and denies Imamate.

Is there a connection between the belief in Dajjal being a system and the Mahdi being invisible?

Edited by Faruk

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11 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Why do you say MY INTERPRETATION? It is not mine but the Imams a.s

It is atributed to the Imams and when a famous Shia scholar is in disagreement with it and has another interpretation then there is no reason for me jumping into conclusions unconditionally.

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12 hours ago, Faruk said:

It is atributed to the Imams and when a famous Shia scholar is in disagreement with it and has another interpretation then there is no reason for me jumping into conclusions unconditionally.

Can you quote a famous shia scholar who is in disagreement with it

 

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17 hours ago, Prince of spacetime said:

Sure you can. It's a new clock. But this clock has a pole reversal mechanism built into it. It will make the north pole in Antarctica, and the south pole where the north pole is.   

 

a new clock? what for?

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4 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

a new clock? what for?

To replace the old one!

Faruk: Start going through the topic posted above, and I'll reveal more about him once everyone has the basics down. But yes, mystifying The Mahdi to a super human level is definitely the Dajjal's doing.

Edited by Prince of spacetime

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On 5/26/2017 at 5:56 AM, Prince of spacetime said:

The interpretation is the same as it's always been. Similar to when the Israelite were awaiting Moses, they didn't think he was born and in hiding. The meaning of the "an always present Imam on earth" is if the Imam isn't apparent like during Imam Ali's time, he's in an occultation like Moses before he was born. Occultations are always spoken of by Prophets to prepare their people for their trial. When Prophet Isa said, there will be a prophet after me named Ahmad, this declared the transfer of Imamate from him to Prophet Muhammed after his death, which was later passed on to Imam Ali. hence the addition of: (apparant or hidden) in hadiths. This means that when the Imam isn't born yet, it doesn't mean there isn't any Imam, it means he isn't apparent (visibly manifested in the flesh) as is highlighted in the narration of "A sun behind the clouds" comparisons. This means that if the sun is behind the cloud and you can't see it does not mean it is no longer there, and it will eventually inevitably reappear and you would obviously live your life accordingly instead of setting fire to your crops as if the sun is for ever gone. That is exactly what "knowing your Imam" entails, knowing him through what was transferred to us concerning him and his arrival and his purpose. The "knowing him" hadith wasn't supposed to be taken as evidence that he is born, otherwise what is the point the of a born but hiding imam at least in terms of being able to know him?? And please don't start with "We can prove it is possible" stuff, anything is possible! The question is, is it true? It is unfortunate because the birth issue serves as the biggest barrier keeping sunni from pursuing the path of Ahlulbayt. What better way to keep muslims divided then to give each of them a half truth. One sect believes in an imamate and denies a human Mahdi, and the other believes in a human Mahdi and denies Imamate. And there is no sect that creates its ideology based on evidence, instead each of them writes books to support their positions by starting with their "truth" and pursuing their evidence accordingly. What a state of affairs you guys have going on here, and Ironically the Jews who are always scapegoated as the source of misguidance seem to be the most consistent of their beliefs of the Messiah's role and his human birth, perhaps I'm better served if I make my next stop a synagogue. And btw Reviving the dead and curing the blind does not mean what you guys think it does. It refers to reviving the "Sunnah" or teachings of those who came before him and correcting their beliefs. And curing the blind is exactly what I've been trying to do, the only difference is that at his time people listened and weren't so entrenched in their own ways. Now the slaves have been given a job (artificial purpose) and a car so they must know everything there is to know about life. No reason to listen to anyone trying to wake them and offending their God (wasting their time). If you don't believe me, go to a Shia a scholar and mention something about a neighbor of yours made a good case that he's The Mahdi and observe his behavior...If by some chance he doesn't start cracking up like you just made the funniest joke ever to be told then Ignore everything I posted on this site. And if by some miracle he turned to you and asked you what his evidence was, then never ever leave that person's side.

Case of 12th Imam was not like that. History shows that people were still curious about mahdi when already a living Imam was among them. And as per imamate concept, everyone has to know and follow Imam of their time, not the Imam of future generations.

For e.g have a look at this narration.

Source: Kitab ul Ghaybah of Numani, chapter 16.

(1) Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Sa'eed narrated from Ali bin al-Hasan from al-Hasan bin Ali bin Yousuf from Muhammad bin Ali from Sa’dan bin Muslim that Abu Baseer had said:  I said to Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq (as): “Does this matter (the appearance of al-Mahdi) not have an end so that we relieve ourselves?” He said: “Yes, it does. But you (people) announced it; therefore Allah put it off.”  Other reference: Biharul Anwar, vol.52 p.117.  

Here people are asking from 6th Imam (which was Imam of their time and they have to follow him not imams of future i.e last 12th one). Didnt they know he will come at number 12 after 5 more Imams (7-11), according to the concept of divine imamate. And to this 6th Imam answered as “Yes, it does. But you (people) announced it; therefore Allah put it off.” This shows that even 6th Imam had no idea when will 12th one arrive. Otherwise he would have explianed to them imamate concept i.e there will be 12 imams in total and the last of them will be the mhadi and currently tyou are with the 6th Imam that is me.

Same situation happened even during the time of Imam Ali a.s, the 1st Imam as per imamate concept, see the nrrations of Imam Ali a.s about mahdi for example. Where was concept of twelve Imams as that time. SInce the time of 1st imam people were interested and talking about the mahdi (12th Imam according to shias).

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27 minutes ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

Case of 12th Imam was not like that. History shows that people were still curious about mahdi when already a living Imam was among them. And as per imamate concept, everyone has to know and follow Imam of their time, not the Imam of future generations.

For e.g have a look at this narration.

Source: Kitab ul Ghaybah of Numani, chapter 16.

(1) Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Sa'eed narrated from Ali bin al-Hasan from al-Hasan bin Ali bin Yousuf from Muhammad bin Ali from Sa’dan bin Muslim that Abu Baseer had said:  I said to Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq (as): “Does this matter (the appearance of al-Mahdi) not have an end so that we relieve ourselves?” He said: “Yes, it does. But you (people) announced it; therefore Allah put it off.”  Other reference: Biharul Anwar, vol.52 p.117.  

Here people are asking from 6th Imam (which was Imam of their time and they have to follow him not imams of future i.e last 12th one). Didnt they know he will come at number 12 after 5 more Imams (7-11), according to the concept of divine imamate. And to this 6th Imam answered as “Yes, it does. But you (people) announced it; therefore Allah put it off.” This shows that even 6th Imam had no idea when will 12th one arrive. Otherwise he would have explianed to them imamate concept i.e there will be 12 imams in total and the last of them will be the mhadi and currently tyou are with the 6th Imam that is me.

Same situation happened even during the time of Imam Ali a.s, the 1st Imam as per imamate concept, see the nrrations of Imam Ali a.s about mahdi for example. Where was concept of twelve Imams as that time. SInce the time of 1st imam people were interested and talking about the mahdi (12th Imam according to shias).

I understand what you are saying. The Mahdi was being discussed long before the Prophet even came about. As I showed earlier, Prophet Isa preached about him a lot (as the Quran and the gospels say) in addition to giving the news about another Prophet after him (also as the Quran and the gospels say). The topic of the final Imam was an ongoing conversation. Consider the situation for a moment, the prophets were able to see our world today and the mission this man must undertake in the short time the prophecies say he will complete it in, without any prophethood, only as a human being (despite the hype), and add to that the fact that there is no prophet coming for another Ghadir or Samuel/Saul style appointment; is it really that surprising that so much effort was invested to give news of his arrival? I mean all religions are expecting him, sure, but look around, despite all of that preaching how many people are actually waiting on him? Not many, I can tell you that much. If you say an Imam or king by God to a Sunni, he will look at you like you are speaking chinese, despite all the previous scriptures (in addition to the Quran) talked about it IN DEPTH!

My point earlier was the concept of Imamate is sometimes discussed as the position itself. So many times the answers and explanations the Imams gave are addressing the reasoning for the position as God's representative itself despite which manifestation (person occupying it). Otherwise my point would be debunked by the simple fact of 2 Imams (current and future) are alive at the same time! And the Prophet spoke of the Mahdi a lot more then people can imagine, but that doesn't mean he was alive then, right? Unless I misunderstood what you are trying to say, but that was what you were implying correct?   

Edited by Prince of spacetime

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On 26/05/2017 at 0:22 AM, Faruk said:

I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. 

3 things: 

1) He a.s. died 

2) He a.s. did not know that people defied him a.s. 

3) The verse is about Judgment Day 

 

How do you conclude from this verse that he a.s. returned?

 

 

How do you conclude from this verse that Isa a.s has passed away? 

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26 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

How do you conclude from this verse that Isa a.s has passed away? 

And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive." Quran 19:33 

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. Quran 5:116



Quran 5:116 is speaking about the day he a.s. was raised alive i.e. the Last Day.

Then he a.s. said:

I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; Quran 5:117

If he a.s. returned he a.s. would know that people had defied him a.s. but he a.s. did not and said in the second half of the same verse:

but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.

i.e. He a.s. did not return but died and will be ressurected.

 

Edited by Faruk

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On 11/06/2017 at 2:55 PM, Faruk said:

And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive." Quran 19:33 

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. Quran 5:116



Quran 5:116 is speaking about the day he a.s. was raised alive i.e. the Last Day.

Then he a.s. said:

I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; Quran 5:117

If he a.s. returned he a.s. would know that people had defied him a.s. but he a.s. did not and said in the second half of the same verse:

but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.

i.e. He a.s. did not return but died and will be ressurected.

 

Again it doesn't show that he passed away,  these verses you are showing 19:33 is about him coming back alive in the Day of reckoning which is way after his Return with AlMahdi (ajtfs). 

5:116 is when Allah *Will be* asking Jesus (a.s) - Allah hasn't asked yet. 

Jesus was a witness over his people whilst he was on Earth. And nobody worshipped him. It's a few years after his Ascension that people decided to make him a part of a Trinity. 

Can you bring any evidence from Hadith that he is dead now? What about the verse where it mentions that He wasn't Crucified nor was he Killed. But it was made to appear? 

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Perhaps maybe Isa AS may be sent with the Mahdi because  he can perform miracles that the Mahdi can't; himself being a prophet/messenger a rank above imam/Mahdi.  

Maybe that symbiotic duality is necessary.

Who knows, but God. 

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Theres also another thing to consider here, arent we forgetting about Prophet Idris AS?

He like Isa AS, did not die and was raised to a lofty heaven - (19:56-57)

 And unless im mistaken, the Dajjal is the antichrist who claims to be Isa AS with false miracles and magic... right?

Who better than the real deal himself to stand in front of the false messiah?

I really cant fathom the Mahdi being the messiah here.

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On 23/06/2017 at 5:45 AM, wmehar2 said:

Theres also another thing to consider here, arent we forgetting about Prophet Idris AS?

He like Isa AS, did not die and was raised to a lofty heaven - (19:56-57)

 And unless im mistaken, the Dajjal is the antichrist who claims to be Isa AS with false miracles and magic... right?

Who better than the real deal himself to stand in front of the false messiah?

I really cant fathom the Mahdi being the messiah here.

Enoch / Idris peace be upon him died. And it can be backed up by Hadith. He was raised in the heavens but his soul was taken there. Ask for reference. I've got it 

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On 10/10/2017 at 12:34 PM, MohammadAli1993 said:

Enoch / Idris peace be upon him died. And it can be backed up by Hadith. He was raised in the heavens but his soul was taken there. Ask for reference. I've got it 

I'm a staunch critic with regard to authenticity of Hadith, to be frank.

It wouldn't be sufficient enough for me to sway my opinion and belief, I'm already on the fence if the Mahdi is a fairytale made up which I see no explicit basis for in the Quran.

it fails the test,  the test that of hadith and quran books, and technology were all destroyed, the quran in our memories /words would be the only thing left. 

What then?  we would scramble from memory tainted by our nafs to generate Hadith versions 3.0 +with another inner conflict for muslims to divide on.

God says he will not burden a soul more than it can bear, attributing iman or relogious piety based on ones belief in a Mahdi or adherence to some Hadith, is beyond any human's capacity at that stage.  God says in Quran, " i am the best source of Hadith, and what other hadith do we follow other than mine?"

Edited by wmehar2

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