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Imam Mahdi (a.s) is not Messiah?

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16 hours ago, Prince of spacetime said:

That's not evidence. You simply just restated the point we are debating!

I read it as: He preached of The Mahdi, full of wisdom, and among the righteous. See how easy that was? No invention of a "miracle" was required. The issue is, you don't want to believe The Mahdi was that big of a Deal and that's fine. But I assure you the Ancients knew otherwise.   

the word في cannot be translated as "about" the way you translated it. Plus read this Ayat

 [19:29] Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?

فَأَشَارَتْ إِلَيْهِ ۖ قَالُوا كَيْفَ نُكَلِّمُ مَنْ كَانَ فِي الْمَهْدِ صَبِيًّا {29}

Please Brother but be honest to yourself 

Now you are telling me that the ayat says that "How can we talk to one who speaks about the Mahdi, a young boy?" 

That doesnt even make any sense. What makes more sense, cradle or Mahdi (ajtfs)? 

Dont bring a straw-man please 

Edited by MohammadAli1993
Straw-man detected

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2 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

the word في cannot be translated as "about" the way you translated it. Plus read this Ayat

 [19:29] Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?

فَأَشَارَتْ إِلَيْهِ ۖ قَالُوا كَيْفَ نُكَلِّمُ مَنْ كَانَ فِي الْمَهْدِ صَبِيًّا {29}

Please Brother but be honest to yourself 

Now you are telling me that the ayat says that "How can we talk to one who speaks about the Mahdi, a young boy?" 

That doesnt even make any sense. What makes more sense, cradle or Mahdi (ajtfs)? 

Dont bring a straw-man please 

That was not a straw man, I simply eliminated the impossible and whatever was left, however improbable, must be true.

What does the word "في" mean in this verse:

وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَنْ يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُنِيرٍ 

"اشارة" does not mean "point with her finger" to something present or next to her, it means "pointed them in the proper direction to reach him", a trip or a road or a path of any sort is implied with the use of this word. Similar to the use of the word "swimming" implies presence of water. Today when you buy a bus ticket, or a train or plane ticket in Arabic speaking countries. It is called a "تاشيرة".

Just like كهل was mixed up to mean old because usually old people are wise, the same mix up happened (intentionally perpetrated) with other words to refer to age when they were referring to something else.

صبي: is an "ADJECTIVE" to convey the meaning "lacking experience". It is the word used to describe young lads in bakeries and other similar small shops in the middle east (at least used to) which overtime turned into a means to call on them "Ya Sabi". And because these trainees are usually young boys learning a trade, the meaning of the word got mixed up with its "Correlation" rather than its "dependency". Another example would be women who say my daughter are صبايا which means are still fragile "age" but they are certainly not children or babies, because similar to the boys' case same word is also used to convey the meaning that they are old enough to get married or learn a trade as per examples I provided. 

So if you insist on wanting to interpret Mahdi as a cradle, then you also have to accept the meaning "lacks experience at being in a cradle" because grammar dictates that it must be read as an adverb. So is that what you are trying to tell me? That God is telling us Prophet Isa didn't know how to sit in a cradle? And before you go ahead and start bending and inventing rules for grammar, consider that even if we accept "صبي" means boy. Then why is Boy Isa sitting in a cradle? Let me guess...boy means baby all of a sudden?

And all this still doesn't answer the biggest question of all, which you so conveniently overlooked as if it's not there. What does "مهاد" mean?

And while you try to look that up, feel free to explain to me how Prophet Isa was "able to talk" to people as an old man if he was "raised up to heaven" when he was in his early 30's? 

Clearly MAHDI is what makes sense. My question to you is why does what you think make sense? try answering that without using the phrase "because X says so" otherwise why don't you just replace that X with me and accept something that doesn't contradict itself? or simply point out where I'm being dishonest with myself and save me from my delusions...I'm open to either or. 

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On 5/25/2016 at 8:30 AM, Prince of spacetime said:

Imam Mahdi is the only messiah. Prophet Isa is the spirit of Truth. The Mahdi will come with Prophet Isa means the Imam will come with the spirit of truth.  At least that's how I read prophecies.  This is not the acceptable Shia view, if that was what you were seeking.

What will be the role of Isa a.s when he return? Who will kill dajjal? Who will die first of the two, Isa a.s or Mahdi a.s? Who will be the ruler after Mahdi a.s? etc

Any authentic shia narrations on this?

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1 hour ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

What will be the role of Isa a.s when he return? Who will kill dajjal? Who will die first of the two, Isa a.s or Mahdi a.s? Who will be the ruler after Mahdi a.s? etc

Any authentic shia narrations on this?

 

Well let me ask you this: If you are reading a cook book and one of the instructions for making a pie said:

-Cut a lemon in half.

Would you go stab Don Lemon with a knife?

The answer is obviously no, and the reason you don't is because you always consider the context of these statements. Not only the context within the sentence or page, because even those must be taken into the context of the book itself. In simpler terms, the meaning of a word is like a russian doll in a center of a series of layers that limit the context (narrow down possible meanings) based on the year the book was written, knowledge of the author, purpose of the book etc... So in order to trully grasp the Intention of the author you have to have acknowledge all these things. Otherwise every physics book would be seen as a children's coloring book full of nonsense and pictures. Take the Qur'an for example, if you really want to understand it, you must read it with the understanding that it is God's word and it is meant to provide guidance. If you don't believe the Qur'an is the word of God then you can make that assessment after you have read it. That means you must read in the context of a divine book meant to provide signs not all the equations for creation. Take Moses and "splitting" the sea for example, when I read that, I understand God gave Moses the means to find a narrow path through the water where it is shallow enough to be measured using his staff and thus by using his staff as dipstick he was able to navigate his people across this water while the Pharoah's army with their chariots and heavy gears couldn't. For me personally, this takes care of 4 discrepancy:

1- Why would God ask him to throw his stick to perform the miracle? couldn't God use the "be" and it "is" approach?

2- How stupid are these "smartest and wisest of Egypt's elite be" be when they see Moses split open the ocean in the Cinematic Version accepted today that they still persisted on following them?

3- Miracles of this nature are impossible, not because God can't perform them, but because God designed our minds that if they were to happen we would not be able to conceive them - And I can scientifically prove this.

4- Why did the Israelites struggle and complain about the food, they must have stockpiled enough food in anticipation for their journey? No?

Similarly, prophecies are to be read in context of what they are-PROPHECIES. A prophecy is called so because it requires Interpretation to be solved, if it didn't require interpretation it would be called a prediction or something else. 

But if consistency isn't your main source for evidence, then here's a hadith from my family:

Quote

Abu Bashir says: I heard Imam Muhammad al-Baqr say: "He said: When the Mahdi appears he will follow in the path of the Messenger of God. Only he [the Mahdi] can explain the works of the Messenger of God.

Muhammad ibn Ibrahim Nomani: 191

And I explained the meaning of this hadith in light of its spiritual context. I would tell you who the Son of Mary and Yamani, who are Imam Mahdi's supporters, using your own hadiths as evidence. But what's the point, you'll end up giving me your opinion or somebody else's and ignore all the evidence. You (as in the collective "muslims"). 

PS. Only you can kill the dajjal. I can only show you the means to do it by freeing yourself from him. 

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The Prophet Muhammad s.a.w.a.s. said that there will be no Prophet after him s.a.w.a.s.

The Return of Christ belief is just a belief that crept in from converted christians or muslims influenced by christians who started to mix up things. The belief in the Return of Christ isn't Shirk so for them it seemed compatible with islam.

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1 hour ago, Faruk said:

The Prophet Muhammad s.a.w.a.s. said that there will be no Prophet after him s.a.w.a.s.

The Return of Christ belief is just a belief that crept in from converted christians or muslims influenced by christians who started to mix up things. The belief in the Return of Christ isn't Shirk so for them it seemed compatible with islam.

What is your evidence for this? The Son of Mary is one of Imam Mahdi's Horsemen of the end times. He is likened to the Son of Mary as a coded message for similar reasons as those that liken Imam Mahdi to prophet Muhammad. Descent from the sky pertains to "Qadar", not a man flying down. And if what you are saying is true then who is that delivering God's final warnings to Saudi, Israel, and Rome?

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1 hour ago, Faruk said:

The Prophet Muhammad s.a.w.a.s. said that there will be no Prophet after him s.a.w.a.s.

The Return of Christ belief is just a belief that crept in from converted christians or muslims influenced by christians who started to mix up things. The belief in the Return of Christ isn't Shirk so for them it seemed compatible with islam.

I meant there is a Son of Mary, but not a Prophet Isa if I misunderstood you.

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13 hours ago, Prince of spacetime said:

Well let me ask you this: If you are reading a cook book and one of the instructions for making a pie said:

-Cut a lemon in half.

Would you go stab Don Lemon with a knife?

The answer is obviously no, and the reason you don't is because you always consider the context of these statements. Not only the context within the sentence or page, because even those must be taken into the context of the book itself. In simpler terms, the meaning of a word is like a russian doll in a center of a series of layers that limit the context (narrow down possible meanings) based on the year the book was written, knowledge of the author, purpose of the book etc... So in order to trully grasp the Intention of the author you have to have acknowledge all these things. Otherwise every physics book would be seen as a children's coloring book full of nonsense and pictures. Take the Qur'an for example, if you really want to understand it, you must read it with the understanding that it is God's word and it is meant to provide guidance. If you don't believe the Qur'an is the word of God then you can make that assessment after you have read it. That means you must read in the context of a divine book meant to provide signs not all the equations for creation. Take Moses and "splitting" the sea for example, when I read that, I understand God gave Moses the means to find a narrow path through the water where it is shallow enough to be measured using his staff and thus by using his staff as dipstick he was able to navigate his people across this water while the Pharoah's army with their chariots and heavy gears couldn't. For me personally, this takes care of 4 discrepancy:

1- Why would God ask him to throw his stick to perform the miracle? couldn't God use the "be" and it "is" approach?

2- How stupid are these "smartest and wisest of Egypt's elite be" be when they see Moses split open the ocean in the Cinematic Version accepted today that they still persisted on following them?

3- Miracles of this nature are impossible, not because God can't perform them, but because God designed our minds that if they were to happen we would not be able to conceive them - And I can scientifically prove this.

4- Why did the Israelites struggle and complain about the food, they must have stockpiled enough food in anticipation for their journey? No?

Similarly, prophecies are to be read in context of what they are-PROPHECIES. A prophecy is called so because it requires Interpretation to be solved, if it didn't require interpretation it would be called a prediction or something else. 

But if consistency isn't your main source for evidence, then here's a hadith from my family:

Muhammad ibn Ibrahim Nomani: 191

And I explained the meaning of this hadith in light of its spiritual context. I would tell you who the Son of Mary and Yamani, who are Imam Mahdi's supporters, using your own hadiths as evidence. But what's the point, you'll end up giving me your opinion or somebody else's and ignore all the evidence. You (as in the collective "muslims"). 

PS. Only you can kill the dajjal. I can only show you the means to do it by freeing yourself from him. 

Every body knows and have seen/eaten a lemon but only a few of them knows about Don Lemon. Here again Lemon seems his surname. Moreover, every cook book gives full detailed instructions along with pictures. So no worries. Not even a fool will do this. As Don Lemon is not everywhere.

It wanst a good example at all. Anyways!

Also none of your discrepancies matches with what I asked. I did not ask for why or how, rather very basic simple questions. I have seen many threads regarding the minute details about the 12th Imam like following,

 

 

 

So I thought there would also be narrations about these issues.

14 hours ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

What will be the role of Isa a.s when he return? Who will kill dajjal? Who will die first of the two, Isa a.s or Mahdi a.s? Who will be the ruler after Mahdi a.s? etc

But you are saying obviously No.

Edited by Ya Allah Madad

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7 hours ago, Prince of spacetime said:

 

Any words on this? Is this acceptable to pray and hasten for his appearance? While there are many prophecies yet to be fulfilled.

 

SUBTITLES

1
00:00:00,190 --> 00:00:05,468
Imam Sadiq (a.s.) says if I met Mahdi

2
00:00:05,468 --> 00:00:10,568
I would serve him all my life. Innocent Imam says that.

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00:00:10,574 --> 00:00:12,674
I swear to God this is feasible,

4
00:00:13,095 --> 00:00:15,422
these events match with the signs.

5
00:00:15,422 --> 00:00:17,896
I don't want to match them explicitly,

6
00:00:17,897 --> 00:00:20,497
but we can consider a probability, don't we!

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Go and read the book of Haj Sheikh Ali Koorani (Age of Arrival)

8
00:00:24,734 --> 00:00:27,293
and see for yourself that the signs are
out there matched with the events.

9
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Even if Zohoor (the arrival) happens 1000 years later,

10
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We will abide by our support, no problem, but

11
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Dear God, please ! this is unfair!

12
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[People Crying ...]

13
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In old times, 1000 years ago, if somebody

14
00:00:55,830 --> 00:00:58,899
from khorasan, wanted to visit Imam Sadiq (a.s.)

15
00:00:58,899 --> 00:01:01,435
, six months of travelling was nothing.

16
00:01:01,544 --> 00:01:04,893
They went by donkey, mule... By beast, pack animal...

17
00:01:04,893 --> 00:01:07,477
It was OK, after six months, they eventually visited their Imam.

18
00:01:07,477 --> 00:01:13,069
Where do we go [to visit our imam]?  To where?

19
00:01:13,069 --> 00:01:17,654
How many times do we need to look for him everywhere?

20
00:01:17,729 --> 00:01:20,730
[Reading parts of Dua-al-Eftetah]

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O Lord, we are complainants

22
00:01:24,782 --> 00:01:27,921
We miss our prophet.

23
00:01:29,199 --> 00:01:31,531
Salman (R.t.) met his prophet,

24
00:01:31,571 --> 00:01:34,069
so did Aboozar (R.t.), but we haven’t yet.

25
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[Continuing Dua]
Our guardian (Imam) is absent too.

26
00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:43,658
And our enemies are so many

27
00:01:44,326 --> 00:01:48,076
And we are few.

28
00:01:48,703 --> 00:01:52,003
Where is our lord?

29
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Where is our motive?

30
00:01:54,178 --> 00:01:56,432
Where is our proof?

31
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Where is our Imam?

32
00:01:58,839 --> 00:02:01,918
Where is Hasan (a.s.) and where is Hussain (a.s.)?

33
00:02:01,918 --> 00:02:04,624
Where are sons of Hussain (a.s)?

34
00:02:04,624 --> 00:02:07,664
Righteous ones after righteous;

35
00:02:07,664 --> 00:02:09,892
Honest ones after honest.

36
00:02:09,892 --> 00:02:11,366
Do you really want to mourn?

37
00:02:11,366 --> 00:02:17,087
Where is the revenger of the one slain in Karbala?

38
00:02:17,090 --> 00:02:23,897
Where is the one who demands
the Prophets and their sons’ blood.

39
00:02:24,009 --> 00:02:32,168
O Lord, where is Baqiatollah (Imam Mahdi)?

40
00:02:33,379 --> 00:02:37,961
O God, I don't know how to say, I am not a eulogist,

41
00:02:37,961 --> 00:02:40,761
I just say it simply... with my own words:

42
00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:46,731
O God, we did wrong, please let he come

43
00:02:47,836 --> 00:02:51,724
What else this people need to do?

44
00:02:51,724 --> 00:02:55,597
They sacrificed two or three hundred thousands
 ... we will stand for him

45
00:02:56,008 --> 00:02:58,303
We will stand for him! Swear to GOD

46
00:02:58,303 --> 00:03:01,285
We are standing for Velayat-e-Faqih (Imam Khamenei),

47
00:03:01,285 --> 00:03:04,556
Surly we will stand for Vali e Masoom
(the innocent one) ... God witnesses us

48
00:03:04,556 --> 00:03:08,573
We will stand... Please send him

49
00:03:09,447 --> 00:03:12,737
[ Reading Farsi Poem... ]

50
00:03:12,737 --> 00:03:17,460
The love was a trouble but we didn't know

51
00:03:17,460 --> 00:03:21,964
And its result is nothing but pain yet we didn't know

52
00:03:22,690 --> 00:03:27,503
We flew away but we trapped, brought down again

53
00:03:27,503 --> 00:03:30,891
Having no wings, was the term [of flying] but we didn’t know

54
00:03:30,891 --> 00:03:35,050
The sky had seen you long but

55
00:03:35,050 --> 00:03:39,023
Our share was ignorance yet we didn't know

56
00:03:39,336 --> 00:03:47,912
The water and the Sweep at our doorstep
used to see you Passing, but we didn't know

57
00:03:47,912 --> 00:03:53,334
This long awaiting has made me worried

58
00:03:54,446 --> 00:03:58,101
This long awaiting has made me worried

59
00:03:58,101 --> 00:04:03,562
The love was a trouble but we didn't know

60
00:04:03,882 --> 00:04:09,112
O Dear Mahdi! No one understood distress of your eyes

61
00:04:09,992 --> 00:04:13,342
No one understood distress of your eyes

62
00:04:13,342 --> 00:04:18,227
No one understood tears of your eyes at nights

63
00:04:18,227 --> 00:04:21,427
We haven’t suffered as much as you had

64
00:04:21,428 --> 00:04:26,038
We didn't cry day and night as you did

65
00:04:26,162 --> 00:04:30,967
It is not bad if you visit us for these favors

66
00:04:30,967 --> 00:04:34,442
It is not bad if you visit us for these favors

67
00:04:34,442 --> 00:04:38,797
It is not bad if you keep me waiting for sometimes.

68
00:04:38,797 --> 00:04:43,107
I'm worried that you return after my death

69
00:04:44,702 --> 00:04:48,947
I'm worried that you return after my death

70
00:04:52,132 --> 00:04:59,222
[I'm worried that] you return at my funeral over my coffin

71
00:05:00,577 --> 00:05:05,427
O Sir! Are you waiting for us to die?

72
00:05:07,202 --> 00:05:10,002
O Sir! Are you waiting for us to die?

73
00:05:10,497 --> 00:05:17,317
Will you return if your expectants die?

74
00:05:17,987 --> 00:05:25,717
I want your calmness at Friday night from my heart

75
00:05:25,717 --> 00:05:27,637
I don't want anything else

76
00:05:27,637 --> 00:05:30,467
I want your calmness at Friday night from my heart

77
00:05:30,467 --> 00:05:35,672
Tomorrow of that night I want to be next to you

78
00:05:35,672 --> 00:05:40,432
Are we less than that black slave?
(referring to Imam Hossein slave on Ashoura named Jowayn)

79
00:05:40,432 --> 00:05:44,227
He was sharpening his sword during a night

80
00:05:44,392 --> 00:05:46,457
He was sharpening his sword during a night

81
00:05:46,642 --> 00:05:50,982
He went to battle field... when he came back...

82
00:05:51,422 --> 00:05:56,692
because of thirstiness, the blood he lost,
he got anesthetized and fell down

83
00:05:56,692 --> 00:06:00,492
Suddenly some kind of heat woke him up...

84
00:06:00,492 --> 00:06:05,832
He looked, his Imam had put his cheek on his cheek

85
00:06:06,500 --> 00:06:08,572
[ Continuing the Poem ...]

86
00:06:08,972 --> 00:06:14,372
We said "when you've been absent the dawn took so long"

87
00:06:14,407 --> 00:06:19,759
You went to come. But your return is being long.

88
00:06:19,759 --> 00:06:25,649
Tonight all we say is this: alright I admit it

89
00:06:25,649 --> 00:06:29,009
No problem, predecessors did something and you took this bless from them

90
00:06:29,009 --> 00:06:32,184
I don't want to be counted like them...

91
00:06:32,184 --> 00:06:34,969
I wanna settle my account  ,

92
00:06:34,969 --> 00:06:37,669
First, I wanna settle my accounts with myself;

93
00:06:37,670 --> 00:06:41,699
I was wrong and regretful! I didn't understand.

94
00:06:41,699 --> 00:06:44,330
O God, look... I did not want

95
00:06:44,331 --> 00:06:47,044
to commit sin and I didn't like to.

96
00:06:47,044 --> 00:06:49,244
After committing my sin, I felt regret

97
00:06:49,244 --> 00:06:50,939
You are witness on that, it is not

98
00:06:50,940 --> 00:06:52,634
possible to hide something from you

99
00:06:52,634 --> 00:06:55,908
After that sin... I got sad...

100
00:06:55,909 --> 00:07:00,279
I don't have the willpower. but I want to...

101
00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:04,324
This Satan does not let me ...
O God Please help me ...

102
00:07:04,324 --> 00:07:06,824
O Lord, please let us find him...

103
00:07:06,830 --> 00:07:09,830
[Reading a Dua from Mafatih-Al-Jinan
wich is read after visiting Imam Reza (a.s) shrine]

104
00:07:09,830 --> 00:07:12,374
O God I ask you for forgiveness ...
 while admitting my sin

105
00:07:12,374 --> 00:07:15,574
O God I ask you for forgiveness ...
 and I'm insisting on that.

106
00:07:15,574 --> 00:07:18,669
I ask you for your forgiveness ...
asking with shame and pardon

107
00:07:18,669 --> 00:07:21,654
I ask you for forgiveness ...
asking hopefully

108
00:07:21,654 --> 00:07:24,454
I ask you for your forgiveness ...
returning to you

109
00:07:24,454 --> 00:07:27,854
I ask you for your forgiveness ...
asking of contrition and penance

110
00:07:27,854 --> 00:07:32,734
I ask you for forgiveness ...
like a runaway that is running from you to you!

111
00:07:32,734 --> 00:07:36,349
Forgive us, O Most Merciful

 

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Quote

Every body knows and have seen/eaten a lemon but only a few of them knows about Don Lemon. Here again Lemon seems his surname. Moreover, every cook book gives full detailed instructions along with pictures. So no worries. Not even a fool will do this. As Don Lemon is not everywhere.

It wanst a good example at all. Anyways!

Also none of your discrepancies matches with what I asked. I did not ask for why or how, rather very basic simple questions. I have seen many threads regarding the minute details about the 12th Imam like following,

The reason why you thought this was a bad example was because you, ironically, didn't understand the context. You are looking at things with one eye as in through a "Relative" angle, while my answers try to address the "Absolute" depending how in depth the forum allows me. "you said everybody knows....." that's a relative statement! What if you don't speak English? you are perhaps more likely to recognize the a TV personalities name than the names of vegetables in a foreign language, no? And as I said, if a statement or line of reasoning is always always true, it cannot be used in an argument. You said the "cook book has pictures and ......" this means you are agreeing with me but you just don't know it. The reason I provided the cook book example was to show the odd approach of treating a prophecy in a different context then PROPHECY! meaning just like you would know a lemon (even if you don't know what a lemon is!!!!) you still wouldn't think it means the CNN anchor. By the same logic, the prophecy discussing a Son of Mary, should be taken as a prophecy about a person referred to as Son of Mary as a clue. Because to think it must mean Prophet Jesus will "Return from the dead-BIOLOGICALY" and physically descend from the sky would be following the exact same logic that would result in Don Lemon covering a stabbing Story about himself. So the point of the example is to not try to connect dots based on what you know and break a thousand laws of God and Nature in the process!

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Which prophecies are yet to be fulfilled, According to my calendar there was a call from the sky in the last few days (heard by people near and far and in their own language) naming the Mahdi and invoking God's curse on the tyrants and oppressors. That means the gates of forgiveness have already been shut, and there is only one means left for salvation. Intercession. 

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20 hours ago, Prince of spacetime said:

The reason why you thought this was a bad example was because you, ironically, didn't understand the context. You are looking at things with one eye as in through a "Relative" angle, while my answers try to address the "Absolute" depending how in depth the forum allows me. "you said everybody knows....." that's a relative statement! What if you don't speak English? you are perhaps more likely to recognize the a TV personalities name than the names of vegetables in a foreign language, no? And as I said, if a statement or line of reasoning is always always true, it cannot be used in an argument. You said the "cook book has pictures and ......" this means you are agreeing with me but you just don't know it. The reason I provided the cook book example was to show the odd approach of treating a prophecy in a different context then PROPHECY! meaning just like you would know a lemon (even if you don't know what a lemon is!!!!) you still wouldn't think it means the CNN anchor. By the same logic, the prophecy discussing a Son of Mary, should be taken as a prophecy about a person referred to as Son of Mary as a clue. Because to think it must mean Prophet Jesus will "Return from the dead-BIOLOGICALY" and physically descend from the sky would be following the exact same logic that would result in Don Lemon covering a stabbing Story about himself. So the point of the example is to not try to connect dots based on what you know and break a thousand laws of God and Nature in the process!

Same is in fact the case with Imam.

There are many narrations from ahlebait which say: Imam is the one which can be seen and heard. just like lemon. And we all know that 12th shia Imam do not fit in this definition.

عن عمر بن يزيد، عن أبي الحسن الاول (عليه السلام)، قال: سمعته يقول: ” من مات بغير إمام، مات ميتة جاهلية، امام حي يعرفه ” قلت: لم أسمع اباك يذكر هذا، يعني إماما حيا، فقال: ” قد والله قال ذلك رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله)، قال: وقال رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله): من مات وليس له امام يسمع له ويطيع، مات ميتة جاهلية

Abi al-Hassan (as) said: One who dies without a living and known Imam, dies the death of ignorance. The narrator said: I never heard this from your father, I mean the living Imam? He replied: By Allah the Messenger of Allah said this, and said: One who dies without an Imam, who can be heard and obeyed, dies the death of ignorance.

ال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام: من مات وليس عليه إمام حي ظاهر مات ميتة جاهلية

Abu Abdilllah (as) said: One who dies without the living and Zahir (visible . i.e which can be seen) Imam, dies the death of ignorance.

Source: Mufid in al-ekhtisas p268-289, Bihar al-Anwar v23 p92.

 

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2 hours ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

Same is in fact the case with Imam.

There are many narrations from ahlebait which say: Imam is the one which can be seen and heard. just like lemon. And we all know that 12th shia Imam do not fit in this definition.

عن عمر بن يزيد، عن أبي الحسن الاول (عليه السلام)، قال: سمعته يقول: ” من مات بغير إمام، مات ميتة جاهلية، امام حي يعرفه ” قلت: لم أسمع اباك يذكر هذا، يعني إماما حيا، فقال: ” قد والله قال ذلك رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله)، قال: وقال رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله): من مات وليس له امام يسمع له ويطيع، مات ميتة جاهلية

Abi al-Hassan (as) said: One who dies without a living and known Imam, dies the death of ignorance. The narrator said: I never heard this from your father, I mean the living Imam? He replied: By Allah the Messenger of Allah said this, and said: One who dies without an Imam, who can be heard and obeyed, dies the death of ignorance.

ال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام: من مات وليس عليه إمام حي ظاهر مات ميتة جاهلية

Abu Abdilllah (as) said: One who dies without the living and Zahir (visible . i.e which can be seen) Imam, dies the death of ignorance.

Source: Mufid in al-ekhtisas p268-289, Bihar al-Anwar v23 p92.

 

The issue with people interpreting these traditions is an incredible amount of lumping things together. It's their inability to distinguish between the "office of presidency" and "the president of the united states" and "President Obama" that has led to so many false beliefs based on baseless assumptions. Those 3 things can mean very different things in certain context. Surely "being born and in hiding" is an example of such misunderstanding, and contradicts the very logic it's based on: "the need to know him".  

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19 hours ago, Prince of spacetime said:

The issue with people interpreting these traditions is an incredible amount of lumping things together. It's their inability to distinguish between the "office of presidency" and "the president of the united states" and "President Obama" that has led to so many false beliefs based on baseless assumptions. Those 3 things can mean very different things in certain context. Surely "being born and in hiding" is an example of such misunderstanding, and contradicts the very logic it's based on: "the need to know him".  

Then what would be the correct interpretation.

Such narrations are of the time of 6th Imam (or even before that), much before the 12th current Imam.

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On 5/20/2017 at 11:11 PM, Faruk said:

The Prophet Muhammad s.a.w.a.s. said that there will be no Prophet after him s.a.w.a.s.

The Return of Christ belief is just a belief that crept in from converted christians or muslims influenced by christians who started to mix up things. The belief in the Return of Christ isn't Shirk so for them it seemed compatible with islam.

Isa (a.s) will come back and that can be backed up by Quran

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8 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Isa (a.s) will come back and that can be backed up by Quran

The countersrguments were already given in this same forum. 

That Isa a.s. is considered to be a sign of the Last Day has to do with  the fact that Allah made him a.s. raise the dead and thus that He masters creation and is able to re-create on the Last Day as well. 

 

Above that, Allah promised there will be no Prophet after Muhammad s.a.w.a.s.

Edited by Faruk

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3 minutes ago, Faruk said:

The countersrguments were already given in this same forum. 

That Isa a.s. is considered to be a sign of the Last Day has to do with  the fact that Allah made him a.s. raise the dead and thus that He masters creation and is able to re-create on the Last Day as well. 

 

Above that, Allah promised there will be no Prophet after Muhammad s.a.w.a.s.

No we havent established that. Where did you get this belief from? Are you even Shia muslim? 

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11 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Where did you get this belief from? Are you even Shia muslim? 

I should ask you that question. The Return of Christ is a populair christian belief.

According to the Book of Allah I'm just a muslim. Let's use Quran and reason instead of labels.

Edited by Faruk

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15 minutes ago, Faruk said:

I should ask you that question. The Return of Christ is a populair christian belief.

Let's use Quran and reason instead of labels.

It's not just a popular xtian belief but also a Muslim belief as well as Shia and Sunnis. 

Some xtians reject it like Jehovas Witnesses. and Are you sayin that Isa a.s will bring the Dead back to life in the Day of Judgement? 

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4 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

It's not just a popular xtian belief but also a Muslim belief as well as Shia and Sunnis. 

Some xtians reject it like Jehovas Witnesses. and Are you sayin that Isa a.s will bring the Dead back to life in the Day of Judgement? 

Not at all. Isa a.s. ressurected the dead by the power of Allah during his life. That is written in the Quran. These miracles were the proof about the Day that the dead will be brought back to life again.

Edited by Faruk

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Just now, Faruk said:

Not at all. Isa a.s. ressurected the dead by the power of Allah during his life. That is written in the Quran. These miracles werr proofs about the Day that the deaf will be brought bavk to life again.

Nowhere in the Quran does it say that Isa will bring back the dead on That Day. 

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1 minute ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Nowhere in the Quran does it say that Isa will bring back the dead on That Day. 

Where did I said that?

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2 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Not at all. Isa a.s. ressurected the dead by the power of Allah during his life. That is written in the Quran. These miracles werr proofs about the Day that the deaf will be brought bavk to life again.

Then Ali Bin Ibrahim said, ‘My father narrated to me, from Al Qasim Bin Muhammad, from Suleyman Bin Dawood Al Manqary, from Abu Hamza,
(It has been narrated) from Shahr Bin Hawshab who said, ‘Al-Hajjaj said to me, ‘O Shahr! A Verse in the Book of Allah azwj has exhausted me’. So I said, ‘O Emir! Which Verse is it?’ So he said, ‘Hisazwj Words

[4:159] And there is not one of the  People of the Book except that he believes in this before his death.

By Allahazwj! I am the Emir of the Jews and the Christians, and I strike their necks, then look at him with my own eyes. So I do not see them move their lips until they die!’ So I said, ‘May Allahazwj Correct the Emir! This is not as you are explaining it’. He said, ‘How is it?’ I said, ‘Isaas would descend to the world before the Day of Judgement, so there would not remain a Jew or someone else from the people of the nations, except that he would believe in himas before hisas death. And heas would Pray behind Al-Mahdiasws’. He said, ‘Woe be unto you! How can this be for you, and from which spring did you bring it?’ So I said, ‘It was narrated to me by Muhammadasws Bin Aliasws Bin Al-Husaynasws Bin Aliasws Bin Abu Talibasws’. So he said, ‘By Allahazwj! You have brought it from the clear spring’.1176  تفسير اِلق ه مي 163ِ :1ِ

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39 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

 

I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. 

3 things: 

1) He a.s. died 

2) He a.s. did not know that people defied him a.s. 

3) The verse is about Judgment Day 

 

How do you conclude from this verse that he a.s. returned?

 

 

Edited by Faruk

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