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Why science cannot prove ‘There is no God’?

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3 hours ago, Quisant said:

If anyone (theist or non-theist) claims that something caused time to exist, then that person is wrong. It is logically impossible for anything to cause time to exist. 

If time has been caused to exist, then it must have passed from a state of non-existence into existence. But changes in state occur within time, so if there was no time when time didn't exist, then it could not possibly change its state and come into existence.
(In the absence of time nothing can change.) 

In our time yes.

Is God's time the same as ours?

One could say, nothing exists that isnt in the 3 dimensions, now this maybe true for things within our universe, but it is not necessarily true in itself.

One could imagine a scenario where there is created time, which is a dimension, like weight, and then there maybe God time which is the framework in which God operates. The point is that you can not extrapolate assumptions to God.

 

These exact issues were raised with the Imams AS, eg How can Allah exist before there was space? How did Allah exist before time?

H 238, Ch. 6, h7
Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated in a marfu‘ manner from Zurara who has said
the following:
“Once I asked (Imam) abu Ja’far, recipient of divine supreme
covenant, ‘Did Allah exist when there was nothing?’ The Imam
replied, ‘Certainly, Allah existed when there was nothing.’ I
further inquired, ‘Where did Allah exist?’ The Imam was
leaning; he then sat up and said, ‘O Zurara, you spoke of the
impossible. You ask about space where there is no space.’”

 

H 239, Ch. 6, h8
Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Muhammad ibn
al-Walid from ibn abu Nasr from abu al-Hassan al-Muwsali who has narrated the
following from abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant,:
“Once a rabbi, hibr, came to Imam Ali, recipient of divine
supreme covenant, and asked, ‘O Amir al-Mu’minin, when did
your Lord come into existence?’ Imam Ali, recipient of divine
supreme covenant, replied, ‘Consider carefully. The question
when applies to one who did not exist (and then came into
being). When does not apply to the One Who is eternal. He was
before the before without before and after the after without an
after. He is not the end of a certain end so that His end would
also end.’ He then asked, ‘Are you a prophet?’ Imam Ali,
recipient of divine supreme covenant, replied, ‘Bereft of you be
your mother! I am a slave among the slaves of the Messenger of
Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant.’”
Note: The words ‘was’ ‘is’ and so forth do not apply in the
case of the existence of Allah. The use of such words is due to
shortcomings of language in which we seek to express the fact of
Allah’s being, to which the factor of time cannot apply.

 

The final point is that rationalisation of Allah is condemned : 

H 245, Ch. 8, h2
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from ibn abu
‘Umayr from 'Abd al-Rahman ibn al-Hajjaj from Sulayman ibn Khalid from
(Imam) abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, who said the
following:
“The words of Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious that say, ‘And
that the final end is unto thy Lord’ (53:42) instruct people to end
a discussion that may take up Allah’s Self as an object of
investigation.’”

 

 

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18 minutes ago, iraqi_shia said:

In our time yes.

Is God's time the same as ours?

One could say, nothing exists that isnt in the 3 dimensions, now this maybe true for things within our universe, but it is not necessarily true in itself.

One could imagine a scenario where there is created time, which is a dimension, like weight, and then there maybe God time which is the framework in which God operates. The point is that you can not extrapolate assumptions to God.

 

These exact issues were raised with the Imams AS, eg How can Allah exist before there was space? How did Allah exist before time?

H 238, Ch. 6, h7
Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated in a marfu‘ manner from Zurara who has said
the following:
“Once I asked (Imam) abu Ja’far, recipient of divine supreme
covenant, ‘Did Allah exist when there was nothing?’ The Imam
replied, ‘Certainly, Allah existed when there was nothing.’ I
further inquired, ‘Where did Allah exist?’ The Imam was
leaning; he then sat up and said, ‘O Zurara, you spoke of the
impossible. You ask about space where there is no space.’”

 

H 239, Ch. 6, h8
Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Muhammad ibn
al-Walid from ibn abu Nasr from abu al-Hassan al-Muwsali who has narrated the
following from abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant,:
“Once a rabbi, hibr, came to Imam Ali, recipient of divine
supreme covenant, and asked, ‘O Amir al-Mu’minin, when did
your Lord come into existence?’ Imam Ali, recipient of divine
supreme covenant, replied, ‘Consider carefully. The question
when applies to one who did not exist (and then came into
being). When does not apply to the One Who is eternal. He was
before the before without before and after the after without an
after. He is not the end of a certain end so that His end would
also end.’ He then asked, ‘Are you a prophet?’ Imam Ali,
recipient of divine supreme covenant, replied, ‘Bereft of you be
your mother! I am a slave among the slaves of the Messenger of
Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant.’”
Note: The words ‘was’ ‘is’ and so forth do not apply in the
case of the existence of Allah. The use of such words is due to
shortcomings of language in which we seek to express the fact of
Allah’s being, to which the factor of time cannot apply.

 

The final point is that rationalisation of Allah is condemned : 

H 245, Ch. 8, h2
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from ibn abu
‘Umayr from 'Abd al-Rahman ibn al-Hajjaj from Sulayman ibn Khalid from
(Imam) abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, who said the
following:
“The words of Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious that say, ‘And
that the final end is unto thy Lord’ (53:42) instruct people to end
a discussion that may take up Allah’s Self as an object of
investigation.’”

 

 

Brother pardon me but I tell you that He is creator of time and time is at his finger points. If He wishes he stops it, if He wishes he starts it. So, once I read about Imam Ali a.s who said God is time and this meant that even time cannot start without God's permission so the realm of time is also in His hands. Like he causes Mars to have only days and no nights and like He (SWT) gave long life to hazrat khizr a.s so God is master of time as well.  

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17 hours ago, Danish14 said:

Lol, its a positive change that you come to admit something as a God. Now, let me take you to another side. Firstly, I will like you tell you that everything which undergoes changes is not God. This reason of this is that every thing which causes it to change is stronger than the thing to whom it is causing change. For example:- Time, space, gases and other properties of universe are changing universe continously.  So, it means that universe is governed by them and it is helpless against them like we are helpless against time. Secondly, the one who made universe helpless before those things is God himself and all time, space and energy are his creation which defines limits of creations. And about your confusion as to who created God you gave answer yourself by believing self-existence when you mentioned about universe as God but I pointed out to you that self-existence and non-influence defines God to which your universe failed but my God qualifies for it as He has influence over all things but things do not influence it. 

 

17 hours ago, Danish14 said:

Lol, its a positive change that you come to admit something as a God. Now, let me take you to another side. Firstly, I will like you tell you that everything which undergoes changes is not God. This reason of this is that every thing which causes it to change is stronger than the thing to whom it is causing change. For example:- Time, space, gases and other properties of universe are changing universe continously.  So, it means that universe is governed by them and it is helpless against them like we are helpless against time. Secondly, the one who made universe helpless before those things is God himself and all time, space and energy are his creation which defines limits of creations. And about your confusion as to who created God you gave answer yourself by believing self-existence when you mentioned about universe as God but I pointed out to you that self-existence and non-influence defines God to which your universe failed but my God qualifies for it as He has influence over all things but things do not influence it. 

The universe as a whole is unchanging with its eternal laws by which everything within it abides.  The laws do not change are eternal.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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9 hours ago, Danish14 said:

What you are saying is not sensible. Time is a property that is assigned to things by a creator and God Himself assigned it to things that he created and prescribed time for their variations. Time came into existence when things came into existence. If there is not creation, there is no time. If there is creation, there is time. If you establish nuclear facility, you will have created time for its decommissioning when they will be closed and likewise there is age for universe too which is fixed by God himself.

What quisant is saying is that TIME itself cannot begin at a point IN TIME and cannot end at a point in TIME.  We cannot use time to measure time.  For something to be in time means that it has a before and an after.  If time began and if it will end, then time itself would have to be in time... And this is absurd.  

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

 

The universe as a whole is unchanging with its eternal laws by which everything within it abides.  The laws do not change are eternal.  

hahahahaha,

1. Laws are unchanging but universe is changing (read about universe in point 2 below) because these laws are of God himself. His laws are eternal as is He. To every action there is an equal reaction. This is not only valid in physics in material world but it is also true in world of spirituality. If you do good deeds, you will be rewarded in response and if you do bad deeds, you will get punishment if not corporal then spiritual as you become hard-heart.

2. you are wrong about universe that it is unchanging. Because, there were some atheist scientists that believed like you gave theory that universe was static but when Edwin Hubble's observations proved that universe is not steady but changing all hopes of atheist's were put to end because universe was not static as proved by observation. so, what are you talking about huh ? Universe has been changing and it will always change like you cannot avert changes of aging universe cannot change it too. Do not fool yourself by denying facts please. It is not good for you :)

1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

What quisant is saying is that TIME itself cannot begin at a point IN TIME and cannot end at a point in TIME.  We cannot use time to measure time.  For something to be in time means that it has a before and an after.  If time began and if it will end, then time itself would have to be in time... And this is absurd.  

Although time is abstract but we measure it by our way by counting it into years, months, days, hours, minutes, seconds....and this is because God made us time dependent as we grow and get old by time. But for God there is not time because He is self-existing and eternal. Time is measurable for mortal things but for eternal there is not time. And, God made for you sun and moon so that you may measure time so how can you say that time cannot be measured as we measure it by revolution of earth around sun as year and revolution around itself for hours. Parameters of time are fixed by God and He will set parameters for it as he wants. Time is at his will.

 

 

Edited by Danish14

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On Sunday, May 08, 2016 at 10:20 AM, eThErEaL said:

So as I already explained, science is based on inferences.  It makes inferences about certain things.  Do you know what an "inference" is? We can make inferences about whether there is a Flying Invisible Spaghetti Monster even though we haven't looked at every single corner of the universe and even though it is invisible and cannot possibly be detected.  In the same way, science can make an inference that god does not exist.  This is because it is just as absurd to infer that there is a flying invisible spaghetti monster.  The fact of the matter is that we KNOW that an invisible Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist, and we know this even though it cannot be detected.  It is a scientific fact that there are no invisible flying spaghetti monsters.  It is just an imagination and so is god.  

Well, thats true from the evidence you have. Edison believed in God and he had experience of him. What should be done is to provide evidence of current miracles to the world of science. 

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5 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

What quisant is saying is that TIME itself cannot begin at a point IN TIME and cannot end at a point in TIME.  We cannot use time to measure time.  For something to be in time means that it has a before and an after.  If time began and if it will end, then time itself would have to be in time... And this is absurd.  

Time is relative. It can be measured compared to some other time. 

Edited by sefket83

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5 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

 

The universe as a whole is unchanging with its eternal laws by which everything within it abides.  The laws do not change are eternal.  

Because you have no evidence of the laws changing you infer that they allways will be that way. The laws of the Universe do have start.

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18 hours ago, Quisant said:

If anyone (theist or non-theist) claims that something caused time to exist, then that person is wrong. It is logically impossible for anything to cause time to exist. 

If time has been caused to exist, then it must have passed from a state of non-existence into existence. But changes in state occur within time, so if there was no time when time didn't exist, then it could not possibly change its state and come into existence.
(In the absence of time nothing can change.) 

Finite time exists, you can say that finite time itself has no cause. That is what Stephen Hawkings also says. On the other hand it is not illogical either to say that something which is infinite created finite time if it has the ability to create something out off nothing.

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2 hours ago, sefket83 said:

Well, thats true from the evidence you have. Edison believed in God and he had experience of him. What should be done is to provide evidence of current miracles to the world of science. 

Miracles are not bound by scientific parameters. I consider it to be beyond the scope of physical science to understand them and they are not often repeated but for a cause. These are associated with the belief of person. A person having pure beliefs can understand happening of miracles. 

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11 minutes ago, Danish14 said:

Miracles are not bound by scientific parameters. I consider it to be beyond the scope of physical science to understand them and they are not often repeated but for a cause. These are associated with the belief of person. A person having pure beliefs can understand happening of miracles. 

What do you mean with to understand them? 

Kindly, Sefket

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4 minutes ago, sefket83 said:

What do you mean with to understand them? 

Kindly, Sefket

Understanding them requires:

1. Who are invested with the authority among humans to perform miracles.  These are only pure and infallible such as Prophets and infallible imams.

2. Only believers believe in miracles and non-believers do not understand it and doubts.

Many things are there but these are the two major things which I mentioned.

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2 hours ago, Danish14 said:

Understanding them requires:

1. Who are invested with the authority among humans to perform miracles.  These are only pure and infallible such as Prophets and infallible imams.

2. Only believers believe in miracles and non-believers do not understand it and doubts.

Many things are there but these are the two major things which I mentioned.

It is true only those that are ready to believe can understand them for what they are.

I think I do not understand the first thing, do you want to say we normal humans can not understand them unless we are infallible? Please have patients with me.

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26 minutes ago, sefket83 said:

It is true only those that are ready to believe can understand them for what they are.

I think I do not understand the first thing, do you want to say we normal humans can not understand them unless we are infallible? Please have patients with me.

I do not say that normal people cannot understand, I say that among normal men only believers will believer in miracles. And, I say that miracles are of two types. 

1. Miracles that are done by Allah (SWT) such as He concealed the birth of Hazrat Moses a.s so that paroh do not hurt him anyway.

2. Allah (SWT) also grants miracles to his chosen ones such as Prophets and our 12 Infallible Imams and that condition is reserved for pure ones who are infallible and are not inclined to any sin and who always have science at their finger tips. Moses's stick divided ocean into two halves for passage with the aid of God. Jesus brought dead into life with the help of Allah (SWT). Our beloved Prophet (PBUHHP) divided moon into two halves, Imam Ali a.s took the door of khyber on his hand which required 40 strongmen to move.

3. God also grants also miracles to certain human beings besides Prophets and infallible Imams but their criteria is also purity of soul and staunch belief in God some of these examples are like Hakeem Luqman a.s who was doctor and Allah (SWT) gave him such knowledge that he possessed cure of every disease except death and doubt.

In Quran, Allah (SWT) says that at the day of judgement Allah (SWT) will not speak to the wrong-doers. This is also true for this world because whoever have belief in Allah (SWT) will be rewarded by Allah (SWT) by any best gift such as gift of Islam which is biggest of miracles. So, it depends upon purity.

Edited by Danish14

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3 hours ago, Danish14 said:

I do not say that normal people cannot understand, I say that among normal men only believers will believer in miracles. And, I say that miracles are of two types. 

1. Miracles that are done by Allah (SWT) such as He concealed the birth of Hazrat Moses a.s so that paroh do not hurt him anyway.

2. Allah (SWT) also grants miracles to his chosen ones such as Prophets and our 12 Infallible Imams and that condition is reserved for pure ones who are infallible and are not inclined to any sin and who always have science at their finger tips. Moses's stick divided ocean into two halves for passage with the aid of God. Jesus brought dead into life with the help of Allah (SWT). Our beloved Prophet (PBUHHP) divided moon into two halves, Imam Ali a.s took the door of khyber on his hand which required 40 strongmen to move.

3. God also grants also miracles to certain human beings besides Prophets and infallible Imams but their criteria is also purity of soul and staunch belief in God some of these examples are like Hakeem Luqman a.s who was doctor and Allah (SWT) gave him such knowledge that he possessed cure of every disease except death and doubt.

In Quran, Allah (SWT) says that at the day of judgement Allah (SWT) will not speak to the wrong-doers. This is also true for this world because whoever have belief in Allah (SWT) will be rewarded by Allah (SWT) by any best gift such as gift of Islam which is biggest of miracles. So, it depends upon purity.

I get it now dear brother. 

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16 hours ago, Danish14 said:

Miracles are not bound by scientific parameters. I consider it to be beyond the scope of physical science to understand them and they are not often repeated but for a cause. 

Assume it is true that Allah (swt) preserves the bodies of martyrs so their blood is fresh. This could be verified by anyone. Imagine the most knowledgable phycists started to study the laws of these miracles. Probably they would be different from what they ever have observed and searching for the cause of this new set of laws the only evidence they would have is the explanation of the Quran. A theory of phycists would be born.

Edited by sefket83

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6 hours ago, sefket83 said:

Assume it is true that Allah (swt) preserves the bodies of martyrs so their blood is fresh. This could be verified by anyone. Imagine the most knowledgable phycists started to study the laws of these miracles. Probably they would be different from what they ever have observed and searching for the cause of this new set of laws the only evidence they would have is the explanation of the Quran. A theory of phycists would be born.

Every knowledge comes out of the ocean and that ocean of knowledge is the absolute Knowledgeable. Science is too infant in these days to understand the miracles because it is just focusing on apparent things parting ways from metaphysics and spirituality. Secondly, existing science is just a fraction of the single drop of the absolute knowledgeable and it is from Him that knowledge has gushed forth because He willed it so. And, for understanding His (SWT) ways, it must take account of all forms of knowledge including spirituality and metaphysics who knows that science is searching for knowledge in material things but it is not there and is in abstract ones whom it is neglecting. 

 

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1 hour ago, Danish14 said:

Every knowledge comes out of the ocean and that ocean of knowledge is the absolute Knowledgeable. Science is too infant in these days to understand the miracles because it is just focusing on apparent things parting ways from metaphysics and spirituality. Secondly, existing science is just a fraction of the single drop of the absolute knowledgeable and it is from Him that knowledge has gushed forth because He willed it so. And, for understanding His (SWT) ways, it must take account of all forms of knowledge including spirituality and metaphysics who knows that science is searching for knowledge in material things but it is not there and is in abstract ones whom it is neglecting. 

 

You are right we can not understand the ways of our most merciful lord, but he requires of us to act on that which is knowable.

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:bismillah:

On 5/10/2016 at 9:36 AM, Danish14 said:

I do not say that normal people cannot understand, I say that among normal men only believers will believer in miracles. And, I say that miracles are of two types. 

1. Miracles that are done by Allah (SWT) such as He concealed the birth of Hazrat Moses a.s so that paroh do not hurt him anyway.

2. Allah (SWT) also grants miracles to his chosen ones such as Prophets and our 12 Infallible Imams and that condition is reserved for pure ones who are infallible and are not inclined to any sin and who always have science at their finger tips. Moses's stick divided ocean into two halves for passage with the aid of God. Jesus brought dead into life with the help of Allah (SWT). Our beloved Prophet (PBUHHP) divided moon into two halves, Imam Ali a.s took the door of khyber on his hand which required 40 strongmen to move.

3. God also grants also miracles to certain human beings besides Prophets and infallible Imams but their criteria is also purity of soul and staunch belief in God some of these examples are like Hakeem Luqman a.s who was doctor and Allah (SWT) gave him such knowledge that he possessed cure of every disease except death and doubt.

In Quran, Allah (SWT) says that at the day of judgement Allah (SWT) will not speak to the wrong-doers. This is also true for this world because whoever have belief in Allah (SWT) will be rewarded by Allah (SWT) by any best gift such as gift of Islam which is biggest of miracles. So, it depends upon purity.

Salam Alaikom, albeit the topic is not about miracles just want to point that BASED ON WHAT DO YOU SAY IMAMS DO MIRACLES. May i ask what is the criteria of a miracle because what Imam ALI Peace upon Him did was not a miracle or was it! Than you drag it that others beside infallible God grant miracles! When is a extraordinary act called miracle? Is all extraordinary acts called miracle? Is all miracles extraordinary; is all extraordinary a miracle!

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10 minutes ago, Ali.Isa said:

:bismillah:

Salam Alaikom, albeit the topic is not about miracles just want to point that BASED ON WHAT DO YOU SAY IMAMS DO MIRACLES. May i ask what is the criteria of a miracle because what Imam ALI Peace upon Him did was not a miracle or was it! Than you drag it that others beside infallible God grant miracles! When is a extraordinary act called miracle? Is all extraordinary acts called miracle? Is all miracles extraordinary; is all extraordinary a miracle!

Praise be to Allah brother. Every good thing is extraordinary. I believe that there is no great miracle than Islam and Ahle Bait e Muhammad ( SAAWW ) because whatever they say is Haq. I do not know what people think about miracles but those whom Allah (SWT) loves, He (SWT) spreads His lover over them so whatever those greatmen wants Allah  (SWT ) does for them.

Edited by Danish14

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On 5/8/2016 at 2:49 AM, eThErEaL said:

Science makes inferential statements about things which exist or which may exist.  So science can infer that god does not exist because such a hypothesis is just as good as believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.   

There is nothing about the scientific method which would permit such an inference.

The statement "There is no God" is not subject to falsification, meaning it is not a valid hypothesis and, by extension, not a scientific statement.

Simply put, science has nothing to say about the existence or nonexistence of God.

Science narrowly concerns itself with the observable, measurable, and falsifiable and nothing else.

 

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On 5/8/2016 at 2:59 AM, eThErEaL said:

But I am saying that Science can make statements about a being's existence.  It is a scientific fact that spaghetti monsters do not exist.   

You see now?

The only statements that are scientifically valid are statements that can be falsified by experiments.

The statement "God does not exist" cannot be falsified and is therefore scientifically invalid.

Moreover, the statement "spaghetti monsters do not exist" is in no way, shape, or form a "scientific fact", as there is no such thing as a "scientific fact", at least, not in any technically rigorous sense.

Science as a discipline does not synthesize or assert facts per se, it merely attempts to falsify hypotheses, formulate laws, and elucidate theories, all of which are tentative and provisional.

A "fact", on the other hand, is something that is basically settled, but science, by definition, is never really settled.  That's why scientists are still testing substantial theories like evolution and general relativity, because they are always subject to revision pending new observations.

Like many atheists, you ironically have faith in the nonexistence of a deity and attempt to use science in order to support your faith-based belief system.

Or, put another way, atheism is somewhat of a religion for you.

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On 5/8/2016 at 3:11 AM, mohsenhona said:

Ok, we both agree that science to some extent can prove or disprove some beings. In fact it is undeniable.

But the question is, can it prove or disprove every beings' existence? 

Creationist say no and i posted the reason.

well, if you think that science can prove or disprove every beings' existence, so please share your information.

Thanks.  

That's not actually true.

Science does not prove hypotheses, it only attempts to falsify them.

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On 5/8/2016 at 5:35 AM, eThErEaL said:

I think you are misunderstanding me.

I know that inferences are probabilistic and can therefore turn out to be wrong (that is why I asked you if you know what an inference is).  This is why science can possibly be wrong when it says that it is a "fact" that the spaghetti monster does not exist.    

It's not a "fact" if it's possibly wrong.

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On 5/8/2016 at 6:50 PM, Darth Vader said:

There is plenty of proof. We have discovered some scientific laws which are governing things from the atom to the universe, and all science rests upon these laws. Pray tell, who created these laws of science? Did they come into being on their own? Why don't these laws change?

Personally, for me its the personalities of the Hashimites. As they have certainty in God and took nothing of this world then its true and there is indeed an afterlife, heaven and hell. If they were politicians then they would have acted like politicians but they didn't, at all.

There is no "proof" that God exists.  If there were proof of God's existence, then what would be the point of having faith?

Technically speaking, "proof" is something that only exists in pure mathematics, so it has little if anything to do with religion or science.

If you need some kind of rationalist concept to buttress your belief in God, then you should use "reason" or "logic", not "proof".

Ultimately, though, there is no proof that God exists, so it always comes down to faith.  But that doesn't mean that faith cannot be reasonable or logical either.


 

 

Edited by appeal_to_heaven

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That reminds me of this discussion I had with some lawyers. I learnt that day that we all have our own definitions of everything. Of honesty, mercy, deception, belief, everything, even proof of course. I remember wasting time with a corrupt police chief, showing him proof, preparing for the meeting I had enlarged documents of proof and highlighted things for his convenience, but he was already sold to the criminals and kept babbling things like a politician and it all fell on deaf ears.

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    • Why not give away Afghanistan to Pakistan and just be done with it? Don't the majority of Afghans live in Pakistans tribal areas and cities anyways? There is more Afghans in Pakistan than there is in Afghanistan itself so yeah again whats the difference? Obviously India would not like this and would be upset but do they have a border with Afghanistan? Whats their agenda in this whole conflict?  Afghanistan is much more closer to Pakistan and Iran than India from my knowledge.   
    • Shukriya bro See maybe I have a chance to be a geek in a Washington think tank lol Btw Herat can go to Iran too it's traditionally Persian  This way hazara will be a neutral buffer state  But India might not like this as it makes Pakistan bigger  Punjabi and muhajir might not like a pashtun dominated Pakistan   
    • 3.87. Urwa b. Yahya al-Nakhkhas al-Dihqan https://sites.google.com/site/mujamalahadith/vol1/book-of-narrators/urwa-b-yahya-al-nakhkhas-al-dihqan   [-/1] رجال الكشي: حكى بعض الثقات بنيسابور أنه خرج لإسحاق بن اسماعيل من أبي محمد عليه السّلام توقيع: يا اسحاق بن اسماعيل سترنا اللّه و اياك بستره ... فإذا وردت بغداد فاقرأه على الدهقان وكيلنا و ثقتنا و الذي يقبض من موالينا ... [1/-] Rijal al-Kashshi: One of the trustworthy narrators in Naysabur reported that a Tawqi [signed rescript] came out addressed to Ishaq b. Ismail from Abi Muhammad عليه السلام saying: O Ishaq b. Ismail, may Allah protect both you and us with His protection … so when you reach Baghdad then read it [this Tawqi] to al-Dihqan, our Wakil [agent], our Thiqa [trustworthy one], and the one who collects from our followers [the dues] … NOTES: Urwa b. Yahya al-Nakhkhas (the slave merchant) was at one time a trusted Wakil of al-Askari in Baghdad as can be confirmed from the above. But he subsequently sold his religion for the petty price of the world and betrayed the Imam. al-Tusi says in his entry on him: عروة النخاس الدهقان، ملعون غال Urwa al-Nakhkhas al-Dihqan - an accursed Ghali al-Kashshi narrates the following reports which confirm his fall from favour: - حدثني محمد بن قولويه الجمال، عن محمد بن موسى الهمداني: أن عروة بن يحيى البغدادي المعروف بالدهقان لعنه الله و كان يكذب على أبي الحسن علي بن محمد بن الرضا عليهم السلام و على أبي محمد الحسن بن علي عليهما السلام بعده، و كان يقطع أمواله لنفسه دونه و يكذب عليه، حتى لعنه أبو محمد عليه السلام و أمر شيعته بلعنة، و الدعاء عليه لقطع الأموال، لعنه الله Muhammad b. Qulawayh the cameleer - Muhammad b. Musa al-Hamdani: Urwa b. Yahya al-Baghdadi, famously known as al-Dihqan - may Allah curse him, used to lie about Abi al-Hasan Ali b. Muhammad b. al-Ridha عليهم السلام and about Abi Muhammad al-Hasan b. Ali عليهما السلام after him. He used to keep a portion of his (the Imam’s) wealth (collected dues) for himself and lie about that. This led Abu Muhammad عليه السلام to curse him and to order his Shia to curse him and supplicate against him for withholding (and keeping to himself) the collected amount - may Allah curse him. قال علي بن سلمان بن رشيد العطار البغدادي كان يلعنه أبو محمد عليه السلام و ذلك أنه كانت لأبي محمد عليه السلام خزانة، و كان يليها أبو علي بن راشد رضي الله عنه، فسلمت إلى عروة، فأخذ منها لنفسه ثم أحرق باقي ما فيها، يغايظ بذلك أبا محمد عليه السلام فلعنه و بري‏ء منه و دعا عليه، فما أمهل يومه ذلك و ليلته حتى قبضه الله إلى النار، فقال عليه السلام: جلست لربي ليلتي هذه كذا و كذا جلسة فما انفجر عمود الصبح و لا انطفى ذلك النار حتى قتل الله عدوه لعنه الله Ali b. Sulayman b. Rashid al-Baghdadi the perfumer said: Abu Muhammad عليه السلام used to curse him. That was because Abi Muhammad عليه السلام had a saved-up amount (of collections) which used to be overseen by Abu Ali b. Rashid - may Allah be pleased with him. This was handed to Urwa (fell in his hands for safe-keeping), so he took from it for himself and then destroyed (burnt) the rest of it, seeking to anger Aba Muhammad عليه السلام thereby. Because of this he [the Imam] cursed him, disassociated from him, and supplicated against him. He [Urwa] was not given respite for even a single day or night before Allah seized him unto the fire. He عليه السلام said: I sat in vigil to my Lord this night of mine - such and such a seating (of worship i.e. describing it), so the light of day did not break nor did that fire (of lamp burnt at night) go out (extinguish) except that Allah had already killed his enemy - may Allah curse him. The following is also found in a letter sent by al-Askari about Ahmad b. Hilal: و قد علمتم ما كان من أمر الدهقان عليه لعنة الله و خدمته و طول صحبته، فأبدله الله بالإيمان كفرا حين فعل ما فعل، فعاجله الله بالنقمة ولم يمهله، و الحمد لله لا شريك له، و صلى الله على محمد و آله و سلم … and you have known what the status of al-Dihqan was - may Allah curse him, his service, and the long period of his companionship, but then Allah transformed his belief into disbelief, when he committed what he committed, so Allah hastened in retribution to him and did not grant him any respite. All praise is due to Allah who has no partner, and may Allah send blessings on Muhammad and his family. What this shows is that being a Wakil of the Imam does not mean that one is Thiqa forever and cannot change into a worse state. We ask Allah to secure us from having high stations but ending in disgrace.
    • They are stems off the same roots. Im quite sure both fund eachother too. May the reappesrance of our saviour be hastened to bring peace in our holy lands and the rest of the world
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