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A question for all the christians

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In regards to the word "son", i suppose the discussion would vary amongst christians.  The word son of course isnt in regards to a biological relationship no more than the word father is.

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10 hours ago, Ruq said:

Why do you say it is speaking about Trinity when it only mentions Mary(as) and Jesus(as) in the verse? How do you know Mary was never worshipped like a deity? maybe the official doctrine of the church doesnt promote that, but it doesnt mean that there werent people doing that in 7th century Arabia. Also, bear in mind that the verse doesnt actually say people were doing that, it is illustrating a future situation in peoples minds in order to warn them about excessive language; its effectively saying that Jesus(as) will disavow the excessive claims and behaviour of some of those who consider themselves his followers.

The verse mentiones three deities. Allah, Jesus and Mary. From the very start Christians argued about how the relation between the three deities should be described, (complicated!) and in the 4th century the mighty church in Rome, recently having become state religion, finally decided what every christian must believe. We find the three deities already in the Bible, God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost. Never Mary or anybody else.The Quran knows about the Christian belief and the three deities, and argues against it.

Christian tradition with holy persons, Saints,  somtimes is misunderstood as a Saint being the same as a Deity. Protestants like me dont really like this tradition either.

Mary is the most Popular Saint, catholics believed she is residing in heaven, and non-Christians in Mekka and Medina can easily have believed she was a Christian God. Of course they did.

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1 hour ago, andres said:

The verse mentiones three deities. Allah, Jesus and Mary. From the very start Christians argued about how the relation between the three deities should be described, (complicated!) and in the 4th century the mighty church in Rome, recently having become state religion, finally decided what every christian must believe. We find the three deities already in the Bible, God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost. Never Mary or anybody else.The Quran knows about the Christian belief and the three deities, and argues against it.

Christian tradition with holy persons, Saints,  somtimes is misunderstood as a Saint being the same as a Deity. Protestants like me dont really like this tradition either.

Mary is the most Popular Saint, catholics believed she is residing in heaven, and non-Christians in Mekka and Medina can easily have believed she was a Christian God. Of course they did.

The verse does not refer to Trinity. It refers to people who worship them beside God. There are similar verses about how some people have taken their monks and rabbis beside Allah. All of these verses refers to worshiping. And Islamic understanding of worshiping is defined in Qur'an and Sunnah, not outside of it.


From Tafsir al-Mizan:

Some people have found it hard to explain the verse because the Christians do not believe in the divinity of the virgin Maryam; and they have mentioned several points for explaining it.

But it should be kept in mind that the verse mentions their taking her as a goddess, and not that they believe in her as a goddess. Taking someone as a god is quite different from believing in his divinity - except as a concomitant. Taking someone as a god is applicable to submitting to him with humility. Allah says: Have you then considered him who takes his base desire for his god? (45:23). And this theme is narrated from the ancients of Christians, and observed in their descendants.

al-Alusi has written in Ruhu'l-ma'ani: Verily Abu Ja'far al-Imami has narrated from some Christians that in the past there was a sect called Maryamiyyah; they believed about Maryam that she was a goddess.

(Rashid Rida) has said in Tafsiru'l-Manar. As for their taking the Christ as a god, it has already been mentioned in several places in explanation of this chapter; and as for his mother, her worship was agreed upon in the Eastern and the Western Churches after Constantine; then the Protestant denomination (which appeared many centuries after the advent of Islam) rejected her worship.

This worship offered to Maryam, mother of Christ, by Christians, is of various modes: There is a salat which contains prayer, praise, call for help and intercession; there is also a fast ascribed to her and named after her; and all this is joined with humility to her remembrance, and to her pictures and images, combined with the belief of her authority emanating from the unseen world. That authority, according to their belief, enables her to bring benefit and harm in this world and the next, either by herself or through her son. They have clearly declared that it is incumbent to worship her. However, we know not of any of their sects which would use the word, goddess, for her; of course they name her, 'Mother of god'; and some sects make it clear that it is used in its real, not metaphorical, sense,

The Qur'an says here that they had taken 'Isa and his mother for two gods, and the taking is other than naming; taking them for gods occurs when they worship them, and this certainly happens in their case. Allah has said in another verse that they say: Surely Allah, He is the Masih son of Maryam;... (5:72). But that is something else. And the Prophet (s.a.w.) has explained the divine words: They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for Lords besides Allah,... (9:31), that they followed them in what they allowed or forbade, not that they called them Lords.
 

And we have following tradition:

١ - عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد بن خالد، عن عبد الله بن يحيى، عن ابن مسكان، عن أبي بصير، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: قلت له: " اتخذوا أحبارهم و رهبانهم أربابا من دون الله " ؟ فقال: " أما والله ما دعوهم إلى عبادة أنفسهم، ولو دعوهم ما أجابوهم، ولكن أحلوا لهم حراما، وحرموا عليهم حلالا فعبدوهم من حيث لا يشعرون.

1 – A number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Khalid from `Abdullah b. Yahya from Ibn Muskan from Abu Basir from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.  He said: I said to him: “They took their rabbis and their monks as lords apart from Allah”. (9:31) So he said: Indeed by Allah, they did not call them to worship themselves, rather they allowed (i.e. made halal) for them (something) forbidden (haram) and forbade (i.e. made haram) upon them something allowed (halal).  So they worshiped them wherefrom they did not perceive. (hasan)

Edited by Dhulfikar

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1 hour ago, Dhulfikar said:

 

The Qur'an says here that they had taken 'Isa and his mother for two gods, and the taking is other than naming; taking them for gods occurs when they worship them, and this certainly happens in their case. Allah has said in another verse that they say: Surely Allah, He is the Masih son of Maryam;... (5:72). But that is something else. And the Prophet (s.a.w.) has explained the divine words: They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for Lords besides Allah,... (9:31), that they followed them in what they allowed or forbade, not that they called them Lords

This is really acrobatics. God(s) has many names. The names does not matter, a God is a God. No sane person believes a doctor and a monk to be deities, but they could be subject to admiration.

But here you are again. Modern Muslims still believe Catholics worship Saint Mary. No wonder if Muhammed also had this impression. And who does the Quran accuse of having taken Mary and Jesus as their Gods besides Allah? Three Gods. Christians of course.

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3 minutes ago, andres said:

This is really acrobatics. God(s) has many names. The names does not matter, a God is a God. No sane person believes a doctor and a monk to be deities, but they could be subject to admiration.

But here you are again. Modern Muslims still believe Catholics worship Saint Mary. No wonder if Muhammed also had this impression. And who does the Quran accuse of having taken Mary and Jesus as their Gods besides Allah? Three Gods. Christians of course.

I can now understand why you see it as acrobatic, no wonder that you can't even understand Islamic position in this matter. 

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36 minutes ago, andres said:

I do understand the Islamic position. It goes: The Quran cant be wrong.

Your case isnt strong. The verse doesnt say that Christians believe in a Mary(as), Jesus(as) + God Trinity. Its astonishing to me that you find your argument at all likely, given the reasons ive already put forth. This has nothing to do with the official position of the church, its about what different groups of peoples actually end up believing, irrespective of what labels they align themselves with. Even Christians today can have significantly different understandings of God. Quite recently an exchange has begun between Edward Feser (a Roman Catholic) and Willian Lane Craig (a Protestant) with both suggesting that each others conceptualisations of God result in something other than monotheism (Feser contends that theistic personalism results in a mono-polytheism and Craig proposes that divine simplicity ultimately results in Atheism).

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58 minutes ago, andres said:

I do understand the Islamic position. It goes: The Quran cant be wrong.

 

That would be nice, if such a statement is valid as reply to my statement, but its not. When Qur'an verse state something, the one who revealed it also explain its meaning. Your understand of these verses is far from what its truly mean. Thus your understanding is opposite of Islamic position.

Many times you do the same mistake.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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14 hours ago, iCambrian said:

For Ruq

 

" ofcourse the word father is inappropriate.... because according to muslim faith he is the creator and moreover dont you think the word creator makes more sense? " ~ MJ

 

14 hours ago, iCambrian said:

In regards to the word "son", i suppose the discussion would vary amongst christians.  The word son of course isnt in regards to a biological relationship no more than the word father is.

I think im right in saying that Jews accept the term 'father' for God and the term 'sons of God' is used in the Torah, but the way Christians use 'son' is an exclusive relationship. Although Muslims dont use 'father', we could probably use it the same way Jews do without problem.

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4 hours ago, Ruq said:

Your case isnt strong. The verse doesnt say that Christians believe in a Mary(as), Jesus(as) + God Trinity. Its astonishing to me that you find your argument at all likely, given the reasons ive already put forth. This has nothing to do with the official position of the church, its about what different groups of peoples actually end up believing, irrespective of what labels they align themselv with.

On which grounds do you determine that the Quran does not aim Christianity in 5:116? And who are the groups you think are intended? 

Do you also believe Catholics worship Mary? 

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4 hours ago, Ruq said:

 

I think im right in saying that Jews accept the term 'father' for God and the term 'sons of God' is used in the Torah, but the way Christians use 'son' is an exclusive relationship. Although Muslims dont use 'father', we could probably use it the same way Jews do without problem.

An exclusive relationship? A biological one?

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4 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

 

That would be nice, if such a statement is valid as reply to my statement, but its not. When Qur'an verse state something, the one who revealed it also explain its meaning. Your understand of these verses is far from what its truly mean. Thus your understanding is opposite of Islamic position.

Many times you do the same mistake.

And my mistake is not to make the same conclusions from the Quran as yours?

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41 minutes ago, andres said:

On which grounds do you determine that the Quran does not aim Christianity in 5:116? And who are the groups you think are intended? 

Do you also believe Catholics worship Mary? 

The initial context of the verse is a series of statements made to believers. Verse 5:116 isnt (as far as i can tell) explicitly directed at anyone in particular. The verses are giving information about Jesus's(as) life and illustrating a future scenario in heaven (which is presumably using some figurative language). There is no mention of Trinity and no mention of Christian sects, but the verse must have a purpose of course and the least we can take from it is that Jesus(as) will disavow some of the beliefs of some of the people who consider themselves his followers. The verses serve as a warning to people about making excessive claims.

I've never thought that Catholics worship Mary(as) in the sense that they worship God (which doesnt mean no one ever has), but the term 'mother of God' is one of the weirdest things ive heard any religious person ever say.

57 minutes ago, andres said:

An exclusive relationship? A biological one?

Exclusive in the sense that God is 'father in heaven' to all Christians, but all Christians dont call themselve the sons of God. Instead they assert that this term in the Gospels is referring to a specific relationship between Jesus(as) and God thaT is not applicable to oTher human beings. I dont know what you mean by 'biological'. How could Jesus(as) be a biological son?

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1 hour ago, Ruq said:

The initial context of the verse is a series of statements made to believers. Verse 5:116 isnt (as far as i can tell) explicitly directed at anyone in particular. The verses are giving information about Jesus's(as) life and illustrating a future scenario in heaven (which is presumably using some figurative language). There is no mention of Trinity and no mention of Christian sects, but the verse must have a purpose of course and the least we can take from it is that Jesus(as) will disavow some of the beliefs of some of the people who consider themselves his followers. The verses serve as a warning to people about making excessive claims.

I've never thought that Catholics worship Mary(as) in the sense that they worship God (which doesnt mean no one ever has), but the term 'mother of God' is one of the weirdest things ive heard any religious person ever say.

Exclusive in the sense that God is 'father in heaven' to all Christians, but all Christians dont call themselve the sons of God. Instead they assert that this term in the Gospels is referring to a specific relationship between Jesus(as) and God thaT is not applicable to oTher human beings. I dont know what you mean by 'biological'. How could Jesus(as) be a biological son?

Verse 5:116 warns against polytheism. There were lots of it in the society where Muhammed grew up. The Kaba was crowded with gods. When he uses Mary and Jesus instead of local Gods as warning examples this is naturally aimed at Christianity. Can you think of a sensible reason it was not? 

Of course Jesus was not a biological son of God, but I sometimes have got the feeling that Muslims believe this to be Christian belief.

Does the expression "mother of God" sound more weird to you than 'father of God"???

Edited by andres
Bad grammer

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7 hours ago, Ruq said:

 

I think im right in saying that Jews accept the term 'father' for God and the term 'sons of God' is used in the Torah, but the way Christians use 'son' is an exclusive relationship. Although Muslims dont use 'father', we could probably use it the same way Jews do without problem.

If there is an argument being made, I am not aware of what it is. But yes, son of God is often stated in an exclusive way. 

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9 hours ago, iCambrian said:

If there is an argument being made, I am not aware of what it is. But yes, son of God is often stated in an exclusive way. 

Everything about Jesus is exclusive. Born by a Virgin and Divine he is not son of God in the same way as we all are. We may have different beliefs what this means, but we agree that God did not sleep with Mary. At least 99.9999% of all Christians do.

Edited by andres

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18 hours ago, andres said:

Verse 5:116 warns against polytheism. There were lots of it in the society where Muhammed grew up. The Kaba was crowded with gods. When he uses Mary and Jesus instead of local Gods as warning examples this is naturally aimed at Christianity. Can you think of a sensible reason it was not?


Why dont you just read the verses one after another and stop projecting your story onto them? that would be sensible. The mention of Jesus(as) and Mary(as) is in the context of a 'conversation' that Jesus(as) will have with God; why do you think its being contextualised in this way rather than simply directly saying "And say 'do not worship Jesus(as) and Mary(as) as deities'"? either there were syncretic groups of people who were still worshipping Mary(as) as a deity who were meant as a specific audence, or there wasnt a specific audience and the verse is there as a general warning to illustrate that Jesus(as) will disavow those that became excessive in their worship of him and his mother.

18 hours ago, andres said:

Does the expression "mother of God" sound more weird to you than 'father of God"???

No, they sound equally bizarre.

17 hours ago, iCambrian said:

If there is an argument being made, I am not aware of what it is. But yes, son of God is often stated in an exclusive way. 

The point is that the word 'father' doesnt need to be an issue and its not one the Quran raises, its the nature of the way the word 'son' is being used that is the issue, yet it need not be as Jews accept the term 'sons of God' where 'son' is understood in a different way.

 

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I do read it as it comes

"O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?"

 

If Jesus said this to mankind it must have been around 30AD

The Quran in the following sentence denies Jesus having said this to his desciples in 30AD.

.

 

It has to do with Christianity. How difficult can it be?

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andres, I think you need to re-read that verse.  It has nothing to do with the year 30AD.  It's a quesiton Allah (SWT) will ask Jesus on the day of judgement.

And regarding this verse, it's a fact that Mary is worshipped as "the mother of god" by Catholics.  They build states of her and pray to her. That is akin to idolatry

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Catholics honor Mary as Mother of the divine Jesus. They do not worship her. This misunderstanding is the reason for Muhammeds belief that Mary was one of the three persons in Trinity. 

Yes, the conversation between Jesus and God happens on judgement day, but it is about an event that should have taken place around 30AD. Now this never happened because nobody ever reported Jesus said so. 

 

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With 3 deities I can easily understand why Muslims say Christianity is not a monitheistic religion, but the three are God, Jesus and The Holy Ghost. Mary or any other personality is not venerated by Christians. The Holy Ghost is not venerated like Jesus and God, maybe because nobody understand what it/who actually is. An outsiders belief that Mary is the third person is therefore very understandable.

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On 4/23/2016 at 8:40 AM, mj1 said:

Salam/peace,

I have a question from all the christians why do you believe that jesus is Gods son?

what makes you believe so?

Salam/Peace MJ1,

1.) I believe Jesus is the Son of God because this title is part of God's promise to King David, found in the Tanakh: (I boldened some.)

And it shall come to pass, when thy days are fulfilled that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will set up thy seed after thee, who shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.

He shall build Me a house, and I will establish his throne for ever.

I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son;

and I will not take My mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee; but I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom for ever; and his throne shall be established for ever.'

According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

- 1 Chronicles 17:11-15

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt25a17.htm

2.) Psalm 2 also includes this promise, with additional details:

"The kings of the earth stand up, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against His anointed: 'Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.'

He that sitteth in heaven laugheth, the Lord hath them in derision. Then will He speak unto them in His wrath, and affright them in His sore displeasure:

'Truly it is I that have established My king upon Zion, My holy mountain.'

I will tell of the decree: the LORD said unto me: 'Thou art My son, this day have I begotten thee.

Ask of Me, and I will give the nations for thine inheritance, and the ends of the earth for thy possession.

- Psalm 2:2-8 http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2602.htm

3.) The Prophet Isaiah elaborates on who this Messiah/Anointed One/Christ is:

For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;

That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts doth perform this.

- Isaiah 9:5-6  http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1009.htm

As a Christian, I believe Jesus Christ fulfills all the promises above.

Peace and God bless you

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Quote

And my mistake is not to make the same conclusions from the Quran as yours?

  •  

Your conclusion is opposite of what Qur'an and Sunnah state and refer.

Quote

Catholics honor Mary as Mother of the divine Jesus. They do not worship her. This misunderstanding is the reason for Muhammeds belief that Mary was one of the three persons in Trinity. 

In Islam "Worship" is different from Christianity.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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