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A question for all the christians

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20 minutes ago, andres said:

Jesus had no human father. This does not mean that we believe God slept with Mary. What would you call someone with no human father?

so what is you opinion for Adam? he had no father and he had no mother 

what do you guys say bout him?

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Jesus referred to the father as the father in the sense that He is the creator.  It isnt necessarily a biological statement.

Adam, in a literal sense, i do not believe existed but of course christians will differ in this area.

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55 minutes ago, Tushi said:

Definitely not god, why would a creator have a human mother? 

Christians believe that only Jesus(as) human nature was born (word made flesh). They believe his divine nature (the part that's in the Trinity, the 'word' part) to be co-eternal with God.

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8 hours ago, mj1 said:

 ".  .  Christians:  .  . why do you believe that Jesus is God's Son?

What makes you believe so?

Well, MJ1, you are familiar with the Quran, no?  You have directed a question to Christian readers. You are familiar with the fact that Christian believers read the Bible, no?

 

Are you not?

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6 hours ago, mj1 said:

so what is you opinion for Adam? he had no father and he had no mother 

what do you guys say bout him?

Lets say God is the father and mother of Adam and Eve, if they existed. All evidence points to it being a myth. Actually Christians call all humans for Gods children and when we pray like Jesus taught we start: "our father which art in heaven". This does not mean we do not have biological parents. 

 

Edited by andres

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4 hours ago, Ruq said:

Christians believe that only Jesus(as) human nature was born (word made flesh). They believe his divine nature (the part that's in the Trinity, the 'word' part) to be co-eternal with God.

Trinity is a theological construction that slowly grew and was decided to be dogma after centuries of discussion. Still we are divided on this. I have my doubts wether any christian fully understand what it is all about, so I dont blaim Muslims for not understanding. Even the Quran has not got it right.

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42 minutes ago, Ruq said:

What do you mean?

I believe he's referring to an ayat that mentions God, the Holy Spirt and Mary together. Actually in another ayat it describes Jesus as breathed from God, a spirit, and a word. Add them to the biblical references and see their references better suit a hierarchy than a trinity. 

I'm of the belief that GOD Almighty didn't create all those angels and archangels to cheer Him on while He did all the work.  Best example is that it was Gabriel who coveyed the message of God to Muhammad.

 

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4 hours ago, Ruq said:

What do you mean?

Trinity means God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost is. Mary has never been believed to be a part of trinity.

I can understand that Muhammed protested against  Christians calling Jesus "son of God" if he thought we believe that God slept with Mary. Now Christians do not believe this, so what is wrong in calling Jesus "son of God"?  

 

Edited by andres

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11 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

I believe he's referring to an ayat that mentions God, the Holy Spirt and Mary together. Actually in another ayat it describes Jesus as breathed from God, a spirit, and a word. Add them to the biblical references and see their references better suit a hierarchy than a trinity. 

I'm of the belief that GOD Almighty didn't create all those angels and archangels to cheer Him on while He did all the work.  Best example is that it was Gabriel who coveyed the message of God to Muhammad.

 

I assume you are talking about 4:171. Here the Quran names 5 "persons":  God, Jesus, Mary, the word and the spirit but continues: dont say three. Sounds like  trying to say something about trinity. Very clear is 5:116 however.

This has of course  nothing to do with the Biblical text that has never heard of the concept trinity.

 

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@Son of Placid @andres O i see, ty.

@andres Well (im hypothesising) it could be problematic because it is the kind of language the polytheists in Arabia were using in relation to God (having daughters). It maybe suggests a conceptualising of God that is more in line with a polytheist type worldview. It seems that we (human beings) are very susceptible to this way of thinking, so introducing ambiguity in language is probably not helpful. Looking at Christian history overall its not obvious to me that having the term 'son' has led to deviant behaviour, but at the time of the Qurans revelation there may have been some syncretism about leading to confusion in beliefs and behaviours.

 

 

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4 hours ago, andres said:

 

This has of course  nothing to do with the Biblical text that has never heard of the concept trinity.

 

The concept of Trinity was established in Christian beliefs before the 7th century though. The Quran is repsonding to what people say in this regard, not what the Bible says.

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42 minutes ago, Ruq said:

The concept of Trinity was established in Christian beliefs before the 7th century though. The Quran is repsonding to what people say in this regard, not what the Bible says.

I agree. Of course the Quran cant critisise the Bible for something that is not written in it. And also it is correct that trinity had been established centuries before the Quran was written. Only the Quran is mistaken is saying that Mary was one of the three persons in trinity.

 

Edited by andres

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8 hours ago, Ruq said:

@Son of Placid @andres O i see, ty.

@andres Well (im hypothesising) it could be problematic because it is the kind of language the polytheists in Arabia were using in relation to God (having daughters). It maybe suggests a conceptualising of God that is more in line with a polytheist type worldview. It seems that we (human beings) are very susceptible to this way of thinking, so introducing ambiguity in language is probably not helpful. Looking at Christian history overall its not obvious to me that having the term 'son' has led to deviant behaviour, but at the time of the Qurans revelation there may have been some syncretism about leading to confusion in beliefs and behaviours.

 

I believe that Muhammad battled against polytheism until any reference that could be associated with it became a big deal. Even trinitarians believe in one God. A God who is able to manifest in three recognized attributes. In Islam, God has 99 names, all based on recognized attributes. It all depends on who tells the story. From what I see of the OT there were very few lines drawn between diety, divinity, and spirituality, often clumped into "Elohim" to explain. 

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On Saturday, April 23, 2016 at 2:40 PM, mj1 said:

Salam/peace,

I have a question from all the christians why do you believe that jesus is Gods son?

what makes you believe so?

You ask questions but have not been able to answer questions to you from others yet. 

Do you believe that the title "son of God" means that Christians believe Jesus is a product of God sleeping with Mary? If not, whats wrong in calling Jesus "son of God"?

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1 hour ago, andres said:

You ask questions but have not been able to answer questions to you from others yet. 

Do you believe that the title "son of God" means that Christians believe Jesus is a product of God sleeping with Mary? If not, whats wrong in calling Jesus "son of God"?

ofcourse the word father is inappropriate.... because according to muslim faith he is the creator and moreover dont you think the word creator makes more sense?

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19 hours ago, andres said:

I agree. Of course the Quran cant critisise the Bible for something that is not written in it. And also it is correct that trinity had been established centuries before the Quran was written. Only the Quran is mistaken is saying that Mary was one of the three persons in trinity.

 

Part of the problem with that is, if you believe that prophet Muhammad(saw) wrote the Quran it means he knew an immense amount about what Christians believe. It means he knew the Biblical stories, in great detail in many respects, and was aware of the holy spirit concept and that Jesus was called 'son' and that a triune godhead existed, yet somehow it had completely escaped his attention that the Trinity was composed of father, son and holy spirit; in all his discussions, interactions and debates with Christians this had some how never become apparent. Doesnt this scenario strike you as extremely unlikely? if we look at verse 5:116 in Quran it is not referencing the Trinity, its making a statement about worshipping Jesus(as) and Mary(as) as deities. Instead of interpreting this as a rebuke to all Christians, why not understand it as a rebuke to paganistic beliefs and behaviours occurring in Arabia at that time, because thats what it is most apparently doing.

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7 hours ago, mj1 said:

ofcourse the word father is inappropriate.... because according to muslim faith he is the creator and moreover dont you think the word creator makes more sense?

According to Christian thermology, not only Jesus, but also you and me, are children of God. Nothing naughty is meant by this, and your answer seems to suggest that you only think the Christian tradition is inapropriate. OK with me. Now Jesus himself taught us a prayer that we often use. It starts: "Our father who are in heaven..". So the therminology is blessed by Jesus himself.

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2 hours ago, Ruq said:

if we look at verse 5:116 in Quran it is not referencing the Trinity, its making a statement about worshipping Jesus(as) and Mary(as) as deities.

That is also uncorrect. Mary never was worshipped as a deity. However to me it is obvius that the Quran here speaks about trinity. And trinity means; God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost. Three persons of the one God. Trinity is not mentioned in the Gospels from the first century. It slowly took form as an explanation for the relation between the three deities as being the one God and has been official Christian belief since the 4th century. If you think trinity is strange I assure you so do I. But Mary has never been a deity in Christianity, so here the Quran is mistaken.

"And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I had ever said it, then Thou wouldst have known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?"

 

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Calling God, father, really isn't much different than calling Him, Him. Meaning, if you have a problem with someone saying that God is our father in heaven, and you think that He should only be called the creator, you may as well refer to God as It, rather than He or Him.

Calling Him, Him, Is giving Him a form of male attributes just as the word father does.

regardless, Muslims refer to God as a He all the time, but we don't jump on them about it because we know that it isn't meant in a physical or literal anatomical way. The same goes for Jesus and his reference to the Father.

Jesus asked why Father, have you forsaken me? But he wasn't asking the question in a way that implies the Father has a male anatomy or is an animal.

This whole topic is a joke.

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5 hours ago, andres said:

That is also uncorrect. Mary never was worshipped as a deity. However to me it is obvius that the Quran here speaks about trinity. And trinity means; God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost. Three persons of the one God. Trinity is not mentioned in the Gospels from the first century. It slowly took form as an explanation for the relation between the three deities as being the one God and has been official Christian belief since the 4th century. If you think trinity is strange I assure you so do I. But Mary has never been a deity in Christianity, so here the Quran is mistaken.

"And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I had ever said it, then Thou wouldst have known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?"

 

Why do you say it is speaking about Trinity when it only mentions Mary(as) and Jesus(as) in the verse? How do you know Mary was never worshipped like a deity? maybe the official doctrine of the church doesnt promote that, but it doesnt mean that there werent people doing that in 7th century Arabia. Also, bear in mind that the verse doesnt actually say people were doing that, it is illustrating a future situation in peoples minds in order to warn them about excessive language; its effectively saying that Jesus(as) will disavow the excessive claims and behaviour of some of those who consider themselves his followers.

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