Jump to content
Elihu

How do Muslims View the Atonement

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."

 

And an important subject, public and personal praying. in Matthew 6:

5 "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.

But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.

7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

8 "Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.

9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

 

Here is where we identify as the "Family of God.' --- I know that Muslims have trouble with Jesus calling God 'His heavenly Father' --- and instructing His disciples, and us, to pray to "Our Father in heaven," --- but that is what we do, and we direct our prayers to 'our heavenly Father,' in Jesus' name.'

 

The Opening, which is Surah 1 has been referred to as the "Lord's Prayer for the Muslims,"

1 In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

2 Praise be to God, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the world;

3 Most Gracious, Most Merciful;

4 Master of the Day of Judgment.

5 Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.

6 Show us the straight way,

7 The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

 

Our daily prayers are important and we can talk to God at any time, and we can ask Him for wisdom and guidance, as it says in James 1:

5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.

7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;

8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To continue:

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."

 

These are the practical teachings of Jesus that fulfilled the former laws, and restored right relationships among men. --- If everyone treats his neighbor right, with love and respect, then there is no reason for hatred and violence.

 

Jesus spoke about the hypocricy in giving charitable gifts, to be seen of men. --- Then the same hypocricy in praying, to be seen by men. --- Next He speaks of fasting, by the hypocrits, to make a public display of their piety:

 

Fasting is to Be Seen Only by God

16 "Moreover, when you fast, do not be like the hypocrites, with a sad countenance. For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.

17 But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, --- (appear normal),

18 so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.

 

--- This is not a criticism of Ramadan, but an encouragement for believers to fast more often. 

 

Some Churches have a day of fasting and prayer for a certain cause, and there is always a blessing in fasting. --- Some privately fast for longer periods of time. --- They may drink water or fruit juice, but to deprive the body of food for a long period, allows the mind to be settled on spiritual things because it is not occupied with the regular interuptions for food. --- Sometimes Ministers will withdraw for a time of fasting and prayer, and continue until they get direction from the Lord, for that which they are seeking.

I understand that in Ramadan, it can take a firm dedication to go without anything, not even water, through the wakeful hours from sunrise to sunset, --- so more power to you as you fast and pray.

 

Lay Up Treasures in Heaven

19 "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal;

20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.

21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

 

The Lamp of the Body

22 "The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good (focusing on goodness and rightness), your whole body will be full of light.

23 But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

 

You Cannot Serve God and Riches

24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

You cannot serve God (as your spiritual Master), and mammon [money, possessions, fame, status, or whatever is valued more than the Lord].

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To continue:

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."

 

Next Jesus spoke of one of the most common problems, WORRY.

Matthew 6:25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?

26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?

27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?

28 "So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin;

29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?

31 "Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’

32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.

33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.

34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

 

Now I want to show you something that was printed on Shiachat some years ago:

Ali knew and taught the Quran, and it seems that God gave him wisdom through the Holy Spirit to teach all the Scriptures. This gives evidence that they had the Torah (OT) and Gospel (NT) translated into Arabic before this. The Quran was written in Arabic and that would be Ali’s language, would it not? Ali said:

(Quote from Shiachat):
Verily, I will instruct the follower of the Torah, according to the Torah. I will instruct the followers of the Gospels according to the Gospels, until both the Torah and the Gospels are made to speak and bear witness to the following: Ali has spoken the truth and the verdict that he has given is according to what has been revealed in us. (End of quote).


(Quote from Shiachat):
The words of the Spirit of God reported in the selections that follow are primarily concerned with morals. These are Christian morals and at the same time Islamic morals. Today Christendom is in a state of moral upheaval. Peculiarly modern ideas of what is right and wrong have found their way into the theologians' understandings of ethics. Significant areas of agreement are difficult to find. The simple morality taught by Jesus ('a) and which continues to be emphasized in Islam resonates in the narrations of the Shi'ah. While excessive asceticism is forbidden, we are to turn, like Jesus ('a), away from the world to find refuge in God.
From the following narrations we not only become reacquainted with the moral teachings of Jesus ('a) and with his character, but we also discover what the dear friends of Allah, the Household of the Prophet (s) found it important to transmit about him, and thereby we get a glimpse into their moral teachings and characters, too.
Muhammad Legenhausen
The Words of Jesus ('a). (End of quote).

One subject they were familiar with was ‘The Moral teachings of Jesus,’ and they used the Gospel of Matthew as follows:

(Quote from Shiachat):
28. Al-Sayyid ibn Tawus, may Allah have mercy on him, said: I read in the Gospel that Jesus ('a) said: "I tell you, do not worry about what you will eat or what you will drink or with what you will clothe your bodies. Is not the soul more excellent than food, and the body more excellent than clothes? Look at the birds of the air, they neither sow nor reap nor store away, yet your heavenly Lord provides for them. Are you not more excellent than they? Who among you by worrying can add a single measure to his stature? Then why do you worry about your clothes?'' (Bihar al-anwar, xiv, 317) [6]. (End of quote).

This is further evidence that --- as well as Muhammad confirming the Gospel --- and Ali explaining it, --- Muhammad’s household continued teaching from it.

The following passage was quoted in the same article, perhaps for comparison:

From Matt 6:25-28,
25. 'Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?
26. Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
27. Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?
28. So why do you worry about clothing?' (End of quote).

Is this not amazing? --- Consider that the Gospel would have been translated from Greek to Arabic and come down through the years to be translated into English after the English language came into being, --- and we have it today as quoted above.

Consider that the Greek was translated into Latin about AD 150. The Latin Vulgate of the whole Bible was made about AD 400, and would have been in use at that time, AD 625.
The Latin Vulgate was used through to the sixteenth century when it, with reference to the Greek, was translated into the Douay Version in English. About the same time King James commissioned some 47 linguists and scholars to produce a Bible for the common people to read. This was written in Old English as is Mr Pickthall’s translation of the Quran, and both have been updated to our common language.

Is this not amazing? --- That the translation that traveled for hundreds of years in the Arabic language and was translated into English is the same (except for the choice of words) as the Latin Vulgate that traveled the same hundreds of years on a different course in Latin, before being translated into English. 

--- Consider how accurate the translations really are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To continue:

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."

--- Bear with me a little longer because Jesus gave this Sermon on the Mount to a multiude of people, as well as teaching His disciples, --- and He explains the New attitudes of life in harmony with others, thus fulfilling the Law.

 

Matthew 7:1 "Judge not, that you be not judged.

2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?

4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye?

5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

--- Comment on Matthew 7:1-5 This is not a prohibition of judgment, nor is it a command to stop using godly wisdom, common sense, and moral courage together with God’s written word to discern right from wrong, to distinguish between morality and immorality, and to judge doctrinal truth. There are many judgments that are not only legitimate, but are commanded (cf John 7:24; 1 Cor 5:5, 12; Gal 1:8, 9; 1 John 4:1-3; 2 John 10); however, you cannot judge another if you are committing the same type of sin.

 

This was the problem with the Pharisaic Law, they would give rules for the common people, but they were exempt. --- And they allowed crookedness to go on in the Temple, and perhaps got a percentage for allowing it to happen.

--- For instance, people came from many countries to worship at the Temple during the Jewish holidays. --- In the Temple they had the "Money changers." --- People brought offerings, but they would bring it in the currency of their country. --- the 'law' was that they had to change it into the Jewish currency before they put it in the offering box.

Because they weren't all familiar with money, they could be shortchanged by the crooked moneychangers, and they could keep the differnce. --- The end result was that the Pilgrims would offer what they thought was the full amount, and it didn't matter to them, because they gave it in Faith. ---But just like crooks today the money changers were stealing from the Temple, and no doubt had somebody on the inside that was getting a percentage.

--- Had the Pilgrims put their own money in the box, the 'treasurers' cound exchange it and (if they were honest) the Temple would get the full amount. --- It says this in John 2:

13 Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

14 And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers doing business.

15 When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers’ money and overturned the tables.

16 And He said to those who sold doves, "Take these things away! Do not make My Father’s house a house of merchandise!"

--- Jesus cleansed the Temple but brought the wrath of the Pharisees on Himself, --- nevrtheless His Mission was to cleanse the hearts of men.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To continue:

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."

 

Keep Asking, Seeking, Knocking

Matthew 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?

10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

 

12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

--- Verse 12 is called, "THE GOLDEN RULE.' --- And the attitude of doing unto others AS YOU WANT THEM TO DO UNTO YOU, is the attitude of loving others as yourself.

This is one of the most profound teachings in the 'changing' of the written law, to the law of Love.

 

--- Jesus was asked by a Pharisee, 'what was the great Commandment in the Law?' in Matthew 22:

37 Jesus said to him, "‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

 

 

Naturally, the one we ask and seek for is God, who knows all of our needs.

James, the half brother of Jesus wrote in his Book, James 1:

2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,

3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.

4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

--- "That you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing" --- Being 'perfect' in the Scripture does not mean 'without flaw, or error,' but it means, complete, or mature, or 'grown up in your faith.'

 

Then he expresses the similar theme to what Jesus wrote above:

5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.

7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;

8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To continue:

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."

 

7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.

14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

--- This is the restrictive part of following Jesus. He said in Matthew 11:

28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

 

This illustration comes from their teams of oxen which were common in Judea. They were harnassed in pairs and did the plowing and hauling, so they were 'servants' to the farmers.

Consider that Jesus is saying, --- "Take My yoke upon you." --- The yoke was the heavy beam that was laid across the neck and shoulders of two oxen, and a U shaped wood was put up under their necks and through holes in the yoke, and fastened. --- This yoke meant the animal had submitted itself to the master.

The first requirement in following Jesus is to surrender our will and our way unto God, who sent Jesus to be our Example, our Savior, and our Lord. --- He said, Take My yoke upon you, "AND LEARN FROM ME."

So when we believe in God and surrender our way unto Him, then we submit to following Jesus by taking His 'yoke' upon us. --- From the beam on the shoulders of the oxen, are straps that go back to the load the oxen are pulling, --- so they are working for their 'master.'

--- The yoke restricts them from turning their heads to look very far sideways, and they can't look backward. --- And they can only see on their side because the other ox is on the other side, so they have to work as a team. --- There is no way they can back up because the yoke would slide down their neck to their head. They are not responsible for anything more than doing what is required of them, --- 'just pulling their load.'

 

But Jesus said, "For I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls."

--- This is why Jesus said, "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." --- The ones who are self sufficient and are making their way through life without God, are not interested in this type of surrender of self to God, --- who gives us peace and rest here on earth, --- and promises eternal rest at the end of this 'narrow way.'

 

30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

--- While we are wearing the light yoke and harness, and following Jesus, we are happy in our service to Him, and to God. --- because Jesus has already suffered for us, and when we identify with Him, we might be persecuted by the world, but our reward is laid up beyond the world. --- This is best expressed in what Jesus said in John 5:

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who 'hears' My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

--- "He who HEARS My word." --- This means 'he who commits himself unto following Jesus and taking His yoke upon himself,' --- would obtain Everlasting life.

Also, Jesus said in Surah 3:

50 I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.

51 "It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight."

--- So following Jesus is a restrictive way, --- and this is what He taught His disciples.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To continue:

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."

 

7:14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

 

Many have asked why Christians have no laws to follow. --- The simple answer is that while you are following laws it gives you some participation in your effort to gain favor with God.

--- We are told that we are 'Saved by Faith' --- and it is by 'God's grace, or goodness.' --- So by God's grace, we are saved through our Faith. --- And Faith in God means 'no faith in myself to save myself.'

This salvation through Faith is a GIFT OF GOD, and you can't pay for a gift, can you? Or it is not a gift. --- So we accept God's gift of salvation.

 

After Faith comes obedience, --- not obedience to written laws, but to the prompting of the Holy Spirit, in obedience to God, --- to take us from children of the world, --- to make us holy in the sight of God. --- And we have to learn obedience as it is written in Hebrews 12:

5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

"My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives."

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?

8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?

10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness.

11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

12 Therefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees,

13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed.

14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.

 

--- It is an uphill road, but this obedience keeps us on the 'straight and narrow' to enter by the 'straight gate.'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To continue:

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."

 

After the "Narrow way," Jesus spoke of false prophets in these verses:

15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?

17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

--- The standards have always been there for people to read and understand, that the one who submits his way unto the Lord is to produce the fruit of righteousness.

In these days, the standards have been lowered by men so that many --- are called Christian, who do not fit the criteria.

--- The beauty of it is that we are not to judge others. but we are to be vessels that produce 'good fruit.'

 

You might ask what that means? --- and these verses show the difference, where it says, "Let those who are led by the Spirit, live or walk daily in the Spirit. --- Galatians 5:

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,

20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,

21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

 

For those who take the name, --- but don't walk in righteousness, there is the following:

7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’

23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

James said, "For him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin." 4:17, --- and James also says in 3:

17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.

18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

 

--- You can see how Jesus fulfilled the law, by the new 'Law of Love.' --- The Holy Spirit guides in right attitudes and principles that produce, Love, joy, and peace, in our relationship with God.

--- The best attitude is that of 7:

12 "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets."

 

God has a high calling, and has the right to be restrictive. --- He doesn't fool around, He has given His Holy Spirit to guide those who are obedient, but He will reject the disobedient, even though they may know the way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To conclude:

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."

 

This is the conclusion of the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus gave the new 'attitudes' in the 'Beatitudes,' --- 5:1-16. --- Then He dealt with the new 'Law of Love' that fulfilled the written Commandments, where He said, --- "You have heard. --- But I say unto you. ---" from 5:17-48.

Chapter 6 deals with our relationship to God in giving, praying, fasting, and our possessions, that you can 'lay up on earth' or that you can 'lay up in heaven.'

Chapter 7 deals with not judging others but relying on God for their, and our, provisions, ---"Ask God in Faith, and you will receive."

--- The key verse is commonly called "The Golden Rule,"

12 "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets."

This really says, "Treat your neighbor as you want to be treated," --- so the righteous judgment that you apply, (and practice) in your own life, is the righteous judgment you want to see in others.

--- Again Jesus says, 'This right attitude of love, meets the standard and fulfills the requirement of the Law and the Prophets.'

A word of wisdom comes from the Prophet Micah, in Micah 6:

8 He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly, To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?

 

And Jesus ends His long teaching sermon with this in 7:

24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:

25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:

27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."

 

28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching,

29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

 

In Poat 1, Elihu said:

Quote: I am fully aware that Muslims reject the atonement through Christ, but what is their "alternative"?

 

In following Jesus and His teaching, we accept His atoning sacrifice. --- His death was not defeat, as it appeared. but Jesus had to go through death and be raised again to life, to conquer death, so that those who believe in God and follow Jesus, have forgiveness, and the assurance of Everlasting life.

The victory was in the Resurrection because Jesus conquered death, and opened the 'straight way' to everlasting life, as He said in John 5:

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears (receives and follows) My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

 

If you have questions or comments feel free to respond.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 03/04/2016 at 6:57 AM, Qa'im said:

I'll agree with Chaotic that if you are happy with your religion, as we are happy with ours, that long-winded debates will not take anyone anywhere. Arguing is disliked in Islam, and debate in religion can only be done with knowledge and humility. Our duty is just to call to God, to be good examples, and to answer questions - Allah guides whom He wills.

What is your denomination? The vast majority of Christians believe in hell, and interpret biblical references to sheol, gehenna, hades and tartaros to be this hell. At the very least, I would expect these to be interpreted as some type of divine destruction, or a place "outside the presence of God" as some say.

If you do not believe in hellfire, but believe that Adam and Eve have gone to hell, then which hell did they go to? If their hell is Genesis 3:14-16, then they are still in the presence of God. They simply suffer some worldly pains (birth pangs, contention between males and females). These are suffered by all people, regardless of whether Jesus died for us or not, and regardless of whether we are Christian or not. If the Fall is hell, then we are all in hell as long as we live.

The first two sentences are in contradiction here, because it is Christ that is held responsible for my sin rather than myself. If this were true, then my only responsibility would be belief in Christ's sacrifice. Before Christ, the religion stipulated prayer, fasting, diet, and other acts of devotion. But with Christ, I can commit sin and not fear its consequences, because my debt would have already been paid. At the time of the Prophet Muhammad (s), the people were burying their daughters alive, neglecting orphans and widows, institutionalizing racism and tribalism, committing adultery, dressing immodestly, and killing each other senselessly. The number one principle of Islamic ethics is accountability. The Prophet would not have been able to change his society with the doctrine of Atonement. Many can profess to believe in it without putting the teachings of Jesus into action. The belief in the Judgment puts consequences to people's actions.

This is not just our position, but the position of the Christians who followed the Jerusalem Church. James' epistle stressed faith+works, and Acts 15:19-21 indicates that he still wanted gentile Christians to follow some laws. Church historians like Eusebius talk about the Jerusalem Church upholding circumcision as an essential practice, and the Jamesian movements (Ebionites, others) still followed Torah law.

What boggles me is that Judaism would have an organized social and economic system for centuries, through which one may attain salvation without a belief in Jesus. Then, Christ's sacrifice would remove that system altogether and relegate religion to just theology. Yes, animal sacrifices were part of this system (and that continues in Islam), but the people also sought repentance, prayer, fasting, etc. All of this is destroyed in Christianity.

The idea that the sin of the father passes down to all of his descendants is not consistent with Judaism. It is purely a Pauline idea. To think that a man who died in Palestine 2,000 years ago paid for your current-day evils is wishful thinking. Furthermore, if you don't believe in hell, then those who do not accept this human sacrifice would not go anywhere after death, and thus not pay for their disbelief.

"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself." (Ezekiel 18:20)

As for sacrifice, the Bible repeats the following:

"For thou desirest not sacrifice ... thou delightest not in burnt offerings." (Psalm 51:16)

"I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats." (Isaiah 1:11)

"Your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet unto me." (Jeremiah 6:20)

"For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." (Hosea 6:6)

"I will have mercy, and not sacrifice." (Matthew 9:13)

Sacrifice without sincerity, rectification, and good works is meaningless to God. Hence, religion is a full way of life and not just centred on a singular sacrifice. Plus, wouldn't the resurrection negate the sacrifice? And since when were sacrifices meant to be crucified - they should be beheaded. The sacrifice of Husayn better fulfills these criteria, all without a need for Original Sin.

Lastly, Jesus never plainly said he was God, nor did he ask people to worship him, nor did he teach the trinity, nor did he plainly teach the doctrine of original sin and atonement. Jesus was, in our view, a part of a great system and a great plan. He was the face of God, his words were God's words, his actions were God's actions, his way was God's way, and he was the true vicegerent of God on Earth. He taught ethics and spirituality to purify our worship, not to remove it. We believe he is the messiah, and we await his return. But messiahship in Judaism never meant godhood, nor an atonement of all sin. We don't eat his flesh, drink his blood, worship his image, or decorate trees (Jeremiah 10) - this is paganism.

What about burnt offerings? Is that what Allah ever wanted 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recent Posts on ShiaChat!

    • What's interesting was that I expected this to be the moral consensus, with our scholars taking perhaps an even more rigid stance. This hasn't turned out to be the case. As @E.L King was mentioning earlier in the chatroom (correct me if I'm wrong), Sayyed al-Hakeem and as-Sistani both have issued rulings declaring gene editing to be halal in and of itself, even to the extent of it being used simply for vain purposes like increasing one's beauty.   EDIT: He's beat me to it.
    • hi i my opinion the hijab for women is because of men with illness in their hearts because the first Gate that Shaytan Temps men is from eye & seeing in men. https://www.aparat.com/v/PZit4   Hijab in the Qur'an    What links here ...  Hijab with Fatima Zahra  GG jurisprudential issues  Hijab  Culture > Theology > Religion > Shia > General > Quranic topics  (cached) Concept and dimensions of hijab in the Quran Purpose and philosophy of veil Eye veil Hijab in speech Behavioral Hijab Veil and chastity Elderly Women's Hijab Is hijab an obstacle to all social delinquency? See also: References:

      In the Holy Quran, there are more than ten verses about the veil and the sanctity of looking at the nonhuman . 
      One of these verses is verse 59 of the surah al-Ahzab: " Or Ilah al-Nabi al-Qarlazwuj and Benatk and Nas al-Momenin Iindenīn Alīān, Ibn al-Jadīn al- eqn-e-dān-e-yarfn-fla-yuzin and khanullah ghafūra rahima " (O Prophet, tell your women and daughters, To cover up, to be known and not to be offended, and Allah is All-Compassionate, Merciful.) 
      It means a national cover; that is, a woman must wear all her body so that she is protected as a gentle flower from the swordsmanship. 
      In Sura Noor, verse 31, too, a great deal of talk about hijab and honoring the unworthy look is spoken.  Concept and dimensions of hijab in the Quran The veil in the word means the barrier, curtain and cover. The use of this word is more than the meaning of the curtain. The word covers the concept that the curtain is a cover, but not every veil, but it is called the cover of the hijab through the back of the curtain. 
      The hijab, meaning ladies' Islamic cover, has two dimensions: a positive and negative one. The positive aspect of it, the necessity of covering the body and its diminutive dimension, is the forbiddenness of being revealed to the non-mahram; and these two dimensions should be together with each other so that Islamic veil can be realized; sometimes it may be the first dimension, but not the second dimension, in this case It can be said that Islamic hijab has been realized. 
      If, in the general sense, we call hijab any cover and impeding the receipt of sin, the hijab can have different types and different types. One kind of this veil is mental, intellectual, and spiritual; for example, belief in Islamic teachings, such as monotheism and prophecy, is one of the examples of the right veil, mental and spiritual, which can lead to sins and sins of mind and mind, such as infidelity And Shrek. 
      In addition, in the Qur'an, there are other types of hijab manifested in man's external behavior, such as hijab and cover in the eyes that men and women are advised in the face of the non-Mahram.  Purpose and philosophy of veil The main purpose of the ordinance of the laws in Islam is to God, which is obtained through the cultivation of self and piety:  إن أكرمكم عند الله أتقكم (حجرات; 13) is magnanimous and most honorable to you with God.
      - = ========================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================== 
      He is the God who raised among the people of Ammi (a people who did not know the reading and writing) a great prophet from the same people, to recite God's revelation to them, and purify them (from the ignorance of ignorance and ugly ethics), and the book of celibacy and wisdom In fact, before that, everyone was in a state of ignorance and misguidance. 
      The Holy Qur'an is used for the purpose of securing the divine commandment, the requirement of Islamic hijab, to achieve cultivation of the soul, purity, chastity, and purity. Verses like:  Let us convey the believers' eyes to the unworthy eyes and protect their bodies and their bodies, which is the best of their bodies and their purity.   Eye veil O my Apostle, tell the believing men to put their eyes in vain view.   قل للمؤمنات أضضضان من أبصارهن (نور; 31) Tell the messenger to the believing women to cover their eyes with an unwise look.   Hijab in speech Another type of hijab and cover of the Qur'an is the hijab of women's speech versus non-law:  Falla is a great deal of pain in your heart (parties; 32) So do not talk to men with thin, soft lips; lest you fall asleep (sickness and despair).   Behavioral Hijab Another type of hijab and cover of the Quran is the veil of women's behavior against the non-Islamic. It is instructed that women should not walk in ways that would attract unharmed attention by showing their ornaments.  And let our Lah al-Jahran be tempted to blow us away (Ibn. 31), and they should not foot to the ground to reveal the ankles and their hidden ornaments.
      Of the discussed topics, it is clearly used that the meaning of Islamic hijab is to cover and protect the coexistence of women with nonhuman men in different forms of behavior, such as how to cover, look, talk and walk. 
      Therefore, the veil and cover of a woman is also a constraint and an obstacle to nonhuman individuals who intend to infiltrate and capture the honor of others. There is also the same notion of banning and refusing the lexical roots of chastity;  Veil and chastity The two words "veil" and "chastity" are essentially the meaning of common denial and refusal. The difference between prohibiting and restraining hijab and chastity is the difference between appearance and inwardness; that is, the prohibition and inhibition in the veil is related to appearance, but the prohibition and inhibition in chastity is related to the inner and inner, because chastity is an internal state, However, given that the effect of appearance on the interior and the external impact on appearance is one of the general characteristics of man; therefore, between the veil and the apparent cover, and the chastity and inner restraint of man, is the effect and the mutual influence; so that whatever the veil and the covering The appearance and the better, this type of veil is more effective in enhancing and enhancing the inner and inner mood of chastity, and vice versa, the greater the inner and inner envy of the The veil will look better in the encounter with aliens.  Elderly Women's Hijab The Holy Quran has pointed to this impact in a subtle way. First, it allows elderly women to dress their clothes like a tent against a non-sanctuary without the intention of throwing themselves out, but ultimately says: "If they are sober, it even means clothes like tents." Not better.  And Al-Qawada'm Al-Nawa'ah Al-Naha'ah Al-Fayyid Allah Jinnah, the Prophet of Allah, the Exalted and the Most Merciful,
      In addition to the previous relationship, between the apparel cover and esoteric dignity, the relation between the sign and the sign holder is also; that is, the apparent hijab is a sign of a certain stage of esoteric dignity with the owner of the veil. Of course, this does not mean that every woman who wears a veil and a cover is necessarily of all levels of chastity.  Is hijab an obstacle to all social delinquency? Given this point of view, the answer to these forms and the doubts of those who, for the ineffectiveness of revealing the veil and the apparent cover, is to blame the offenses of some women with hijab, because the problem of these women, the weakness in the inner veil And the lack of strong faith and belief in the positive effects of hijab and apparent cover and has passed since the Islamic veil has a wide dimension, and one of its most important dimensions is the inner and inner veil of the person who faces sin and corruption , It enjoys inner convictions and faith; and, essentially, this veil of mind and ideology, as a foundation stone for other veils, including hijab and p It is apparent, because human thoughts and ideas form their behaviors. 
      Of course, just as hijab and overlays do not necessarily mean all chaos, chastity can not be imagined without observing the apparent cover. One can not deny a woman or a man who appears naked or half naked in public, because we said that the apparent cover is one of the signs and symbols of chastity, and between the amount of chastity and veil, the relationship of influence and affection There is mutual. Some consider the relationship of chastity and veil to be a kind of relationship between root and fruit; the veil, the fruit of chastity, and chastity are the roots of veil. Some people may have apparent veils, but they have not created extraneous chastity. This hijab is the only shell and appearance. On the other hand, people claim to be chastity, and they say, "I have a heart-warming heart, God works with hearts," they entertain themselves; such humans must, in their minds, have to point to the essential thing that is within the pure, external It will cleanse and never purify the heart, it will not induce the fruitless fruit of the wilderness.  See also: Hijab with Fatima Zahra  References: Interpretation books  https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdaneshnameh.roshd.ir%2Fmavara%2Fmavara-index.php%3Fpage%3D%D8%AD%D8%AC%D8%A7%D8%A8%2B%D8%AF%D8%B1%2B%D9%82%D8%B1%D8%A2%D9%86%26SSOReturnPage%3DCheck%26Rand%3D0&edit-text= http://daneshnameh.roshd.ir/mavara/mavara-index.php?page=حجاب+در+قرآن&SSOReturnPage=Check&Rand=0
    • السؤال: في علم الهندسة الوراثية يدعي بعض العلماء أن باستطاعتهم تحسين الجنس البشري بواسطة التأثير على الجينات وذلك بـ:
      ١. رفع القبح في الشكل. 
      ٢. وضع مواصفات جميلة بديلة. 
      ٣. كلا الأمرين معاً. 
      فهل يجوزللعلماء أن يفعلوا ذلك؟ وهل يحق للمسلم أن يمكن الأطباء من تحسين جيناته الوراثية؟ الجواب: إذا لم يكن له مضاعفات جانبيّة، فلا مانع منه في حدِّ ذاته.  https://www.sistani.org/arabic/qa/02115/ It seems to me, based on the fatwa above, human genetic engineering/editing for the sake of removing ugliness or increasing beauty is halal in and of itself. Also, I don't know if this is relevant, Sayyed Al-Hakeem says human cloning is halal.
    • Just a quick reminder! One day Prophet Dawood (a.s.) came out of the house reciting the Zaboor. And when he recited the Zaboor, there was no mountain, no stone and no bird that did not join him in his recitation. Finally he reached a hill on top of which lived a worshipper named Hizqil. When this man heard the mountains, stones and birds reciting the Zaboor he understood that Prophet Dawood (a.s.) was approaching. Prophet Dawood (a.s.) said: O Hizqil, allow me also to join you on the hill. He replied: No. On being refused the permission Prophet Dawood (a.s.) began to weep. Allah, the Mighty and Sublime revealed to Hizqil to allow Prophet Dawood (a.s.) and to seek His forgiveness. So he held the hand of Prophet Dawood and brought him to the top. Prophet Dawood (a.s.) said: O Hizqil, do you ever feel like committing a sin? He replied: No. He asked: Do you ever feel desirous of worldly pleasures and vices? He said: Sometimes I feel the urge. He asked: Then what do you do? He said: I go into this cave and by looking at that which is in the cave I obtain lesson from it. So Prophet Dawood (a.s.) entered the cave and saw a throne made of iron on which was a skeleton, and an iron plate was attached to it. Dawood (a.s.) saw the following written on it: ‘I am Urwah bin Salam. I ruled for 1000 years, constructed 1000 cities, married 1000 times and the gist of my whole life is that today I have turned to dust. I am the diet of worms and insects. Thus one who sees me should not desire the world.’   Reference : Kamaluddin wa Tamamun Nemah Vol 1
    • As I said basic overview, many different age/level of understanding read these threads. So, basic overview for layman. His bio says Phd, in Chemistry. But again, not a scientific lecture. To provide overview of the issue,(one of the views out there) His personal understanding, http://usamaalatar.net/en/biography-2/
×