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How do Muslims View the Atonement

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I am fully aware that Muslims reject the atonement through Christ, but what is their "alternative"? I was watching a debate between a trinitarian and a Muslim that touched on this subject. It seemed to me that the Muslim believed Allah plainly forgives freely. While this is not inherently strange to me, it does raise another question in my mind. Do Muslims accept that Isaac is the one who led God's people (at that time) into the future? If so, then the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) becomes rather obtuse. The covenants in the Hebrew Scriptures become tedious for no real reason. For example, the Israelites were required to make sacrifices in order to make atonement (Exodus 29:36; Leviticus 4:20). Animals that were to be sacrificed had to be unblemished and Leviticus 17:11 makes it clear that it was the blood that made the atonement (purposely ignoring ties to the Greek Scriptures). However, it was not possible for them (the Israelites) to fully make atonement for their sins with imperfect and lesser creatures (Genesis 1:28; Hebrews 10:1-4). This is where the Christ comes in as the perfect being that would be the atonement for all sins. So if Muslims reject the atonement through Christ, then how do they view the practices of the Israelites in the Hebrew Scriptures?

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Theologically speaking, the crucifixion is important to Christians because of the concept of Original Sin. The problem is, neither Jews nor Muslims have such a concept. Original Sin implies that all humans are guilty for the sin of Adam, and are deserving of hellfire. But what's interesting is that God does not send Adam and Eve to hell for their sin, only their descendants, who had nothing to do with their mistake. This is against the justice of both the Old Testament and the Quran, which teach that everyone is accounted for his/her own actions. After the Original Sin came, God did not rectify this sin right away, but instead waited thousands of years before sending Jesus - putting all of those before Jesus through tedious and unnecessary toil and suffering.  Furthermore, this idea of Original Sin guilts an innocent man for our wrongful actions - that's akin to a judge punishing his own son for the crime of a convict. The idea of complete forgiveness destroys personal responsibility and our duty towards righteousness. In some way, it can even be considered Satanic, because it absolves me of my obligations, and relegates religion to the belief that all of my wrongdoings and debts have been accounted for. While we believe in a merciful God, we do not believe that God is apathetic to the evils committed before and after Jesus - evils way more serious than our ancestor eating a forbidden fruit. Furthermore, while we believe in sacrifice, we do not believe that God needs blood to forgive. Our sincere repentance suffices. God does not need to ransom anyone to forgive us - if anything, that can sound pretty cruel.

That being said, we do believe that the prophets and Imams suffered to bring this message to us, and that our love of them and our association with them will allow God to forgive us. They did not pay our debts, but they are our rolemodels and the lightbearers in the world. Our closeness to them allows us to seek the goodness they represented, so that we may take on their characteristics and manifest their example in the present times.

There are some parallels of the covenant and atonement in the death of Imam al-Husayn, who pays the Abrahamic ransom - I believe that is foretold in Jeremiah 46:10. However, this does not trump personal accountability and judgment, as faith without works is dead.

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The Catholic Church ,the biggest bunch of Christians ,rejects that all people are personally guilty for the sin of Adam and Eve. The concept of Original Sin is much more cosmological and complex. It also rejects the concept of irrevocable salvation. As you quoted from James...faith without works is dead.

From the Catechism:

 original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

Although it is proper to each individual,original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God.

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11 hours ago, Elihu said:

I am fully aware that Muslims reject the atonement through Christ, but what is their "alternative"? I was watching a debate between a trinitarian and a Muslim that touched on this subject. It seemed to me that the Muslim believed Allah plainly forgives freely. While this is not inherently strange to me, it does raise another question in my mind. Do Muslims accept that Isaac is the one who led God's people (at that time) into the future? If so, then the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) becomes rather obtuse. The covenants in the Hebrew Scriptures become tedious for no real reason. For example, the Israelites were required to make sacrifices in order to make atonement (Exodus 29:36; Leviticus 4:20). Animals that were to be sacrificed had to be unblemished and Leviticus 17:11 makes it clear that it was the blood that made the atonement (purposely ignoring ties to the Greek Scriptures). However, it was not possible for them (the Israelites) to fully make atonement for their sins with imperfect and lesser creatures (Genesis 1:28; Hebrews 10:1-4). This is where the Christ comes in as the perfect being that would be the atonement for all sins. So if Muslims reject the atonement through Christ, then how do they view the practices of the Israelites in the Hebrew Scriptures?

Hi,

There are a number of mixed concepts and lost meanings due to language barrier. Let me try to over simplify things.

Muslims believe that Allah created the humans to be tested and to live on earth. It was the plan from the very beginning. He created Adam and Eve then ordered them to not eat from a tree. God knows how many years passed because in Quran Adam is said to have forgotten when Iblis or Satan lured him and Eve to eat from that tree. The tree is not evil, it was in heaven after all. In fact according to Shia hadiths, the tree was holy one  but it was not for Adam. 

Allah had created humans with ability to choose to be good or evil. Humans will consciously choose the path. But when the child is born, he will be born in state of obliviousness and naivety. The sin cannot be assigned to lack of awareness of the deed, so children will stay pure as long as they are children. When they die, their souls go to heaven as horis there. They are the beloved of the most merciful.

Child comes to know right and wrong at the age of 7. They become accountable at the age of 9-15. The teen-hood. Even then, ignorance, forgetfulness and unintentional mistakes are not counted as sins. When you do not pray because you did not know about praying, it is not a sin. it is a sin when you do not pray even though you knew about this obligation. When you drink something mixed with wine without knowing it is not a sin. It s a sin when you drink it while aware of its contents.

This is a general frame.

Now we have to place the obligation of following Isaac, Jesus and Muhammad in that frame. We are born with ability to accept or reject their messages. We can choose to be good or bad individuals. But if we want to look good in the eye if God, we shall follow these individuals. It is a test like the test of Adam : will we follow the orders?

We believe that prophets came with everything that is good and they forbade everything that is evil. I believe the human civilisations were hugely shaped around these messages. The moral standards today are not pagan but largely brought from these messages.

So by following them, one can achieve a better self discipline and can improve from naively innocent like a child to consciously righteous. 

The rewards and sins are counted only when someone is conscious. 

 

The individual has his own responsibility towards God and the society has its own responsibility towards God. In Islam we believe that as society we should re-enforce good and discourage the evil all the time, else a bad consequence will affect the righteous and the evils among us.

Israelis as society had done numerous of crimes against prophets. They killed many and disbelieved many, thus every time they fail as society, a new law or punishment befall against them. Quran describe these laws as burdens and shackles and Jesus came to remove some of these provided that they follow him.

 

Muslims also believe that every message came with its own Shari'ah. Shari'ah means a set of laws. It is just a test to see who will follow the new prophet and who will reject it. Following an order is a conscious step towards righteousness, and righteousness here means being obedient to God rather than being holy and innocent.

The story of the cruscfication of Jesus and resurrection is a bit different in Islam. The atonement of Jesus followers back in days was through believing that he was a prophet and to follow his message. After Jesus came amauhamad and reaching salvation now is through following the newer message which says that Jesus was a prophet, man without father and his mother was virgin. 

The kingdom of heaven will come when Muhammad descendant , AlMamhdi, appears accompanied by Jesus the Messiah. Those of us who want to be resurrected to witness such glory and be honoured with being given a chance to see the kingdom, we shall work hard in achieving a good self deicpline, purifying our thoughts and hearts from maladies like envy, grudges and etc as we walk on earth everyday and we face hurdles each time, we should pass clean from them and keep our ritghousness conscious all time and ask God to make us witness that day.

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On 3/31/2016 at 2:24 PM, Qa'im said:

Theologically speaking, the crucifixion is important to Christians because of the concept of Original Sin. The problem is, neither Jews nor Muslims have such a concept. Original Sin implies that all humans are guilty for the sin of Adam, and are deserving of hellfire. But what's interesting is that God does not send Adam and Eve to hell for their sin, only their descendants, who had nothing to do with their mistake. This is against the justice of both the Old Testament and the Quran, which teach that everyone is accounted for his/her own actions. After the Original Sin came, God did not rectify this sin right away, but instead waited thousands of years before sending Jesus - putting all of those before Jesus through tedious and unnecessary toil and suffering.  Furthermore, this idea of Original Sin guilts an innocent man for our wrongful actions - that's akin to a judge punishing his own son for the crime of a convict. The idea of complete forgiveness destroys personal responsibility and our duty towards righteousness. In some way, it can even be considered Satanic, because it absolves me of my obligations, and relegates religion to the belief that all of my wrongdoings and debts have been accounted for. While we believe in a merciful God, we do not believe that God is apathetic to the evils committed before and after Jesus - evils way more serious than our ancestor eating a forbidden fruit. Furthermore, while we believe in sacrifice, we do not believe that God needs blood to forgive. Our sincere repentance suffices. God does not need to ransom anyone to forgive us - if anything, that can sound pretty cruel.

That being said, we do believe that the prophets and Imams suffered to bring this message to us, and that our love of them and our association with them will allow God to forgive us. They did not pay our debts, but they are our rolemodels and the lightbearers in the world. Our closeness to them allows us to seek the goodness they represented, so that we may take on their characteristics and manifest their example in the present times.

There are some parallels of the covenant and atonement in the death of Imam al-Husayn, who pays the Abrahamic ransom - I believe that is foretold in Jeremiah 46:10. However, this does not trump personal accountability and judgment, as faith without works is dead.

Sorry for the delayed response. It turns out that I had reached my posting limit. I have some points of disagreement in your post. My first contention is that not all Christians accept the doctrine of the hellfire, myself included. I am also not sure why you believe Adam and Eve would not go to hell. As a Christian, I fully acknowledge that Adam and Eve have gone to hell and were unrighteous. We, as descendants of Adam and Eve, have lost the perfection that they had (Romans 5:12). Since we are imperfect beings, we are sinful by nature. That does not mean we are unrighteous by nature, as we can sin and still be righteous through Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22).

Christians believe that we are held accountable for each of our own actions as individuals. That does not mean we cannot be forgiven through the same mechanism, the ransom of Christ (Matthew 20:28; Ephesians 1:7). The trials of those before Christ were not unnecessary. They have a hope just like everyone else does. Consider Luke 20:37-38, where we read the following:
"But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive." (NIV)

They are not forgotten, as they are alive in God's memory. From Abel onward, people of the faith performed animal sacrifices (Leviticus 17:11; Hebrews 11:4). God accepted these ransoms, but they would not cover the sins of man (Psalm 8:4-8).

You said that original sin implies innocent people are found guilty, but that is not the case. There are no innocent people. We, as humans, cannot determine who is innocent and who is not. Only God knows who the innocent are and he has plainly stated through his Word that there are none who are innocent. Jesus was the last perfect and sinless human on earth.

You conclude your first and most interesting paragraph by stating that the ransom is unnecessary. You even call it "cruel." While I am aware you know I disagree, I will take the time to try and explain to you why the need for a ransom came about. It started with Adam disobeying God in the Garden of Eden. It is here that he surrenders his perfection and, as I previously mentioned, passed it on to his offspring (Genesis 2:17; Romans 8:20). Because Adam surrendered his perfection, all of us (his offspring) have also lost the perfection. We, as imperfect beings, cannot avoid sin. The end result of sin is death (Romans 6:23). This was not all that happened in the Garden. What happened in the Garden was a direct result of Satan challenging God. In essence, Satan (the serpent) called God a liar and cruel ruler (Genesis 3:1-5). However, we know that Satan did not stop there. He also charged that God's servants only served Him because they were fearful, not loyal (Job 1:9-11).

It was in response to these challenges and charges that God devised the ransom (Psalm 49:8; Daniel 9:24; Galatians 3:13; Colossians 1:20; Hebrews 2:17). Jesus himself said in Matthew 20:28, "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." God's law to Israel stated that "life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot" (Deuteronomy 19:21). Jesus, like Adam, was a perfect human being. Unlike Adam, he died sinless and served as the ransom for all of imperfect humankind.
 

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Quote

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Genesis 3:7 Of course there is no timeframe in these records but it seems to say there was a physical change they became aware of.

The sin was direct disobedience to God. The act of sin was eating the fruit, and the consequence of that act came from ingesting the fruit, leaving them mortal humans. 

God forgave Adam for his sin, but did not change the "natural" process of the act he commited.

Sin is a state of mind that can be reconciled, and forgiven. Not to be confused with the actions of sin, which come with consequence pending. 

 

 

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If you are very happy with what you believe, why come and ask us in what we think then hurl to refute us 0.o 

I used to think of christians as monotheists but the more i knew guys the more  think whatever you believe in is blasphemous 0.o why do you have to put all previous prophets in lower grades as such ? And why do you have to make God look cruel ... it dose not increase in the purity of Jesus in any way .. It makes him like a good guy who is part of evil gang.. which is not so good after all XD

9 hours ago, Elihu said:

 

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10 hours ago, Chaotic Muslem said:

If you are very happy with what you believe, why come and ask us in what we think then hurl to refute us 0.o 

I used to think of christians as monotheists but the more i knew guys the more  think whatever you believe in is blasphemous 0.o why do you have to put all previous prophets in lower grades as such ? And why do you have to make God look cruel ... it dose not increase in the purity of Jesus in any way .. It makes him like a good guy who is part of evil gang.. which is not so good after all XD

I am not trying to create discomfort, but I was following the guideline of this forum, which states:
"Debates between Islam, Christianity and Judaism"

I may be happy with what I believe, but I do not know if Islam would make me happier. This is why I study it. I want to gain an understanding. I cannot know if it is true unless I study it.

Mainstream Christians are not monotheists. They are polytheists, like Hindus. They accept God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Can your provide examples of how Christians make God look evil?

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I'll agree with Chaotic that if you are happy with your religion, as we are happy with ours, that long-winded debates will not take anyone anywhere. Arguing is disliked in Islam, and debate in religion can only be done with knowledge and humility. Our duty is just to call to God, to be good examples, and to answer questions - Allah guides whom He wills.

On 01/04/2016 at 7:14 PM, Elihu said:

My first contention is that not all Christians accept the doctrine of the hellfire, myself included. I am also not sure why you believe Adam and Eve would not go to hell. As a Christian, I fully acknowledge that Adam and Eve have gone to hell and were unrighteous. We, as descendants of Adam and Eve, have lost the perfection that they had (Romans 5:12). Since we are imperfect beings, we are sinful by nature. That does not mean we are unrighteous by nature, as we can sin and still be righteous through Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22).

What is your denomination? The vast majority of Christians believe in hell, and interpret biblical references to sheol, gehenna, hades and tartaros to be this hell. At the very least, I would expect these to be interpreted as some type of divine destruction, or a place "outside the presence of God" as some say.

If you do not believe in hellfire, but believe that Adam and Eve have gone to hell, then which hell did they go to? If their hell is Genesis 3:14-16, then they are still in the presence of God. They simply suffer some worldly pains (birth pangs, contention between males and females). These are suffered by all people, regardless of whether Jesus died for us or not, and regardless of whether we are Christian or not. If the Fall is hell, then we are all in hell as long as we live.

On 01/04/2016 at 7:14 PM, Elihu said:


Christians believe that we are held accountable for each of our own actions as individuals. That does not mean we cannot be forgiven through the same mechanism, the ransom of Christ (Matthew 20:28; Ephesians 1:7). The trials of those before Christ were not unnecessary. They have a hope just like everyone else does. Consider Luke 20:37-38, where we read the following:
"But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive." (NIV)

They are not forgotten, as they are alive in God's memory. From Abel onward, people of the faith performed animal sacrifices (Leviticus 17:11; Hebrews 11:4). God accepted these ransoms, but they would not cover the sins of man (Psalm 8:4-8).

The first two sentences are in contradiction here, because it is Christ that is held responsible for my sin rather than myself. If this were true, then my only responsibility would be belief in Christ's sacrifice. Before Christ, the religion stipulated prayer, fasting, diet, and other acts of devotion. But with Christ, I can commit sin and not fear its consequences, because my debt would have already been paid. At the time of the Prophet Muhammad (s), the people were burying their daughters alive, neglecting orphans and widows, institutionalizing racism and tribalism, committing adultery, dressing immodestly, and killing each other senselessly. The number one principle of Islamic ethics is accountability. The Prophet would not have been able to change his society with the doctrine of Atonement. Many can profess to believe in it without putting the teachings of Jesus into action. The belief in the Judgment puts consequences to people's actions.

This is not just our position, but the position of the Christians who followed the Jerusalem Church. James' epistle stressed faith+works, and Acts 15:19-21 indicates that he still wanted gentile Christians to follow some laws. Church historians like Eusebius talk about the Jerusalem Church upholding circumcision as an essential practice, and the Jamesian movements (Ebionites, others) still followed Torah law.

What boggles me is that Judaism would have an organized social and economic system for centuries, through which one may attain salvation without a belief in Jesus. Then, Christ's sacrifice would remove that system altogether and relegate religion to just theology. Yes, animal sacrifices were part of this system (and that continues in Islam), but the people also sought repentance, prayer, fasting, etc. All of this is destroyed in Christianity.

On 01/04/2016 at 7:14 PM, Elihu said:

You conclude your first and most interesting paragraph by stating that the ransom is unnecessary. You even call it "cruel." While I am aware you know I disagree, I will take the time to try and explain to you why the need for a ransom came about. It started with Adam disobeying God in the Garden of Eden. It is here that he surrenders his perfection and, as I previously mentioned, passed it on to his offspring (Genesis 2:17; Romans 8:20). Because Adam surrendered his perfection, all of us (his offspring) have also lost the perfection. We, as imperfect beings, cannot avoid sin. The end result of sin is death (Romans 6:23). This was not all that happened in the Garden. What happened in the Garden was a direct result of Satan challenging God. In essence, Satan (the serpent) called God a liar and cruel ruler (Genesis 3:1-5). However, we know that Satan did not stop there. He also charged that God's servants only served Him because they were fearful, not loyal (Job 1:9-11).

The idea that the sin of the father passes down to all of his descendants is not consistent with Judaism. It is purely a Pauline idea. To think that a man who died in Palestine 2,000 years ago paid for your current-day evils is wishful thinking. Furthermore, if you don't believe in hell, then those who do not accept this human sacrifice would not go anywhere after death, and thus not pay for their disbelief.

"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself." (Ezekiel 18:20)

As for sacrifice, the Bible repeats the following:

"For thou desirest not sacrifice ... thou delightest not in burnt offerings." (Psalm 51:16)

"I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats." (Isaiah 1:11)

"Your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet unto me." (Jeremiah 6:20)

"For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." (Hosea 6:6)

"I will have mercy, and not sacrifice." (Matthew 9:13)

Sacrifice without sincerity, rectification, and good works is meaningless to God. Hence, religion is a full way of life and not just centred on a singular sacrifice. Plus, wouldn't the resurrection negate the sacrifice? And since when were sacrifices meant to be crucified - they should be beheaded. The sacrifice of Husayn better fulfills these criteria, all without a need for Original Sin.

Lastly, Jesus never plainly said he was God, nor did he ask people to worship him, nor did he teach the trinity, nor did he plainly teach the doctrine of original sin and atonement. Jesus was, in our view, a part of a great system and a great plan. He was the face of God, his words were God's words, his actions were God's actions, his way was God's way, and he was the true vicegerent of God on Earth. He taught ethics and spirituality to purify our worship, not to remove it. We believe he is the messiah, and we await his return. But messiahship in Judaism never meant godhood, nor an atonement of all sin. We don't eat his flesh, drink his blood, worship his image, or decorate trees (Jeremiah 10) - this is paganism.

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7 hours ago, Qa'im said:

What is your denomination? The vast majority of Christians believe in hell, and interpret biblical references to sheol, gehenna, hades and tartaros to be this hell. At the very least, I would expect these to be interpreted as some type of divine destruction, or a place "outside the presence of God" as some say.

If you do not believe in hellfire, but believe that Adam and Eve have gone to hell, then which hell did they go to? If their hell is Genesis 3:14-16, then they are still in the presence of God. They simply suffer some worldly pains (birth pangs, contention between males and females). These are suffered by all people, regardless of whether Jesus died for us or not, and regardless of whether we are Christian or not. If the Fall is hell, then we are all in hell as long as we live.

I am a non-denominational Christian. However, the Jehovah's Witness share this belief with me. You can read some articles about it here:
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/s/r1/lp-e?q=hell&p=par

The answer to your question about what hell is can be answered just three verses ahead of the passage you quoted. Genesis 3:19 tells us the following:

"By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

Adam, Eve, and all others "return to the ground." Hell is simply the common grave.

7 hours ago, Qa'im said:

The first two sentences are in contradiction here, because it is Christ that is held responsible for my sin rather than myself. If this were true, then my only responsibility would be belief in Christ's sacrifice. Before Christ, the religion stipulated prayer, fasting, diet, and other acts of devotion. But with Christ, I can commit sin and not fear its consequences, because my debt would have already been paid. At the time of the Prophet Muhammad (s), the people were burying their daughters alive, neglecting orphans and widows, institutionalizing racism and tribalism, committing adultery, dressing immodestly, and killing each other senselessly. The number one principle of Islamic ethics is accountability. The Prophet would not have been able to change his society with the doctrine of Atonement. Many can profess to believe in it without putting the teachings of Jesus into action. The belief in the Judgment puts consequences to people's actions.

This is not just our position, but the position of the Christians who followed the Jerusalem Church. James' epistle stressed faith+works, and Acts 15:19-21 indicates that he still wanted gentile Christians to follow some laws. Church historians like Eusebius talk about the Jerusalem Church upholding circumcision as an essential practice, and the Jamesian movements (Ebionites, others) still followed Torah law.

What boggles me is that Judaism would have an organized social and economic system for centuries, through which one may attain salvation without a belief in Jesus. Then, Christ's sacrifice would remove that system altogether and relegate religion to just theology. Yes, animal sacrifices were part of this system (and that continues in Islam), but the people also sought repentance, prayer, fasting, etc. All of this is destroyed in Christianity.

You are forgiven through Christ if you are a follower who repents. That does not mean if you sin then Jesus also sinned. Believing in the sacrifice of Jesus is important, but that is by no means a Christian's only responsibility. James 2:17 tells us that faith without works is dead. So a Christian must also perform works, not just believe. John 4:24 says that we must worship in spirit and truth. So if a Christian does not know of the truth provided in Scripture, then they are not worshiping properly.

7 hours ago, Qa'im said:

The idea that the sin of the father passes down to all of his descendants is not consistent with Judaism. It is purely a Pauline idea. To think that a man who died in Palestine 2,000 years ago paid for your current-day evils is wishful thinking. Furthermore, if you don't believe in hell, then those who do not accept this human sacrifice would not go anywhere after death, and thus not pay for their disbelief.

"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself." (Ezekiel 18:20)

As for sacrifice, the Bible repeats the following:

"For thou desirest not sacrifice ... thou delightest not in burnt offerings." (Psalm 51:16)

"I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats." (Isaiah 1:11)

"Your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet unto me." (Jeremiah 6:20)

"For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." (Hosea 6:6)

"I will have mercy, and not sacrifice." (Matthew 9:13)

Sacrifice without sincerity, rectification, and good works is meaningless to God. Hence, religion is a full way of life and not just centred on a singular sacrifice. Plus, wouldn't the resurrection negate the sacrifice? And since when were sacrifices meant to be crucified - they should be beheaded. The sacrifice of Husayn better fulfills these criteria, all without a need for Original Sin.

Lastly, Jesus never plainly said he was God, nor did he ask people to worship him, nor did he teach the trinity, nor did he plainly teach the doctrine of original sin and atonement. Jesus was, in our view, a part of a great system and a great plan. He was the face of God, his words were God's words, his actions were God's actions, his way was God's way, and he was the true vicegerent of God on Earth. He taught ethics and spirituality to purify our worship, not to remove it. We believe he is the messiah, and we await his return. But messiahship in Judaism never meant godhood, nor an atonement of all sin. We don't eat his flesh, drink his blood, worship his image, or decorate trees (Jeremiah 10) - this is paganism.

I am not an adherent of Judaism, so their doctrines of faith do not particularly concern me. I am less concerned about their rejection of original sin than I am concerned about their rejection of Jesus in general. Hell is the common grave. Everyone goes there, including Jesus when he was dead. Ezekiel 18:20 is stressing personal accountability. Consider verse 4, which tells us "[t]he one who sins is the one who will die." Verse 5 establishes another scenario: "Suppose there is a righteous man who does what is just and right." Verse 9 explains "[h]e follows my decrees and faithfully keeps my laws. That man is righteous; he will surely live, declares the Sovereign LORD." Verse 30 concludes by saying the following:
"Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall."

This is all still true today. I am not responsible for your sins, just as you are not responsible for mine. We did not inherit the specific sins of Adam. As in God knows we did not disobey him by eating from the tree. Rather, we lost his perfection and are therefore prone to sin. We will all sin and have all sinned. Think of a pan used to bake a cake. Adam was the brand new pan. However, having eaten from the tree, the pan is now dented. All future cakes made with the pan will also contain that same dent. We are all cakes made from that pan and we all contain the imperfection created by Adam.

I do not disagree with you in regard to a sacrifice needing sincerity. If someone does not recognize the crucial nature of Jesus' sacrifice, then they cannot truly appreciate it. The resurrection does not negate the sacrifice. Jesus, like Adam, was a perfect human being. The difference is that he never disobeyed God, he showed God that a perfect human (despite temptations) can have perfect obedience. This concept was sealed after his death.

I am not a trinitarian, so most of the last paragraph does not pertain to me. You can claim that Jesus never taught original sin, but Paul did. 1 Corinthians 2:13 says that "[t]his is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words."

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54 minutes ago, Elihu said:

 

"By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

Adam, Eve, and all others "return to the ground." Hell is simply the common grave.

Greetings,

So if we taken from dust and return to dust, and you mention hell is the common grave,So this verse would mean we are all from hell and we return to hell ?As grave is dust.

So according to your belief system,whether one is Jesus who is free of sins or sinful beings such as Adam and Eve, we all go to hell fire which is the grave.

:confused:

Edited by certainclarity

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34 minutes ago, certainclarity said:

Greetings,

So if we taken from dust and return to dust, and you mention hell is the common grave,So this verse would mean we are all from hell and we return to hell ?As grave is dust.

So according to your belief system,whether one is Jesus who is free of sins or sinful beings such as Adam and Eve, we all go to hell fire which is the grave.

:confused:

We all go to hell upon death, yes. We will remain there until the resurrection. We were made from dust and when we die we will return to dust. Dust is not hell, but the concept of nothingness in the grave is hell. When Lazarus had died, what did Jesus say? He said that Lazarus had fallen asleep (John 11:11-14). Ecclesiastes 9:10 says that there is "neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom" in the realm of the dead. This is what I believe.

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57 minutes ago, Elihu said:

We all go to hell upon death, yes. We will remain there until the resurrection. We were made from dust and when we die we will return to dust. Dust is not hell, but the concept of nothingness in the grave is hell. When Lazarus had died, what did Jesus say? He said that Lazarus had fallen asleep (John 11:11-14). Ecclesiastes 9:10 says that there is "neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom" in the realm of the dead. This is what I believe.

http://www.al-islam.org/the-hereafter-maad-ayatullah-dastaghaib-shirazi/barzakh-purgatory-stage-between-world-and-hereafter

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3 hours ago, Elihu said:

I am not an adherent of Judaism, so their doctrines of faith do not particularly concern me. I am less concerned about their rejection of original sin than I am concerned about their rejection of Jesus in general.

Christianity is a continuation of Judaism. God spoke to them through prophets and scriptures. If they had no concept of original sin, can we really blame them for rejecting Paul's teaching? If the original sin was a central tenet of God's religion, and the Jews had no knowledge of it for thousands of years (despite being in the midst of many prophets), why would they suddenly take it? If James, the brother of Jesus, got it wrong, then who is Paul to get it right? Paul's main authority was his claim to revelation, not the actual teachings of the living Jesus.
 

2 hours ago, Elihu said:

We all go to hell upon death, yes. We will remain there until the resurrection. We were made from dust and when we die we will return to dust. Dust is not hell, but the concept of nothingness in the grave is hell. When Lazarus had died, what did Jesus say? He said that Lazarus had fallen asleep (John 11:11-14). Ecclesiastes 9:10 says that there is "neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom" in the realm of the dead. This is what I believe.

So the original sin, a mistake I had no part in, is the reason why all humans die. Okay. Then Jesus' sacrifice pays for the original sin. So shouldn't the belief in Jesus negate death? Yet, it does not, because the Christian dies the same way as the Muslim dies. Therefore, the belief in Jesus' sacrifice bears no significance, because all go to hell despite their belief. Even Jesus goes to hell, which means God goes to hell? Is it fair to say that there is "neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom" in Jesus' realm, even if it was only three days?

I respect your beliefs, and the Quran talks highly of Christians. We believe that the Christians are sincere in their beliefs and are trying to serve God. However, they have unknowingly deviated from the central message of God, which is His oneness and the Judgment. We believe that Judaism and Christianity are really Islam in their origin, because Islam means Submission to God. Moses never called himself a Jew, and Jesus never called himself a Christian; had they been asked what their religion was, they would say they were servants of God. As long as there was creation, there was Islam. The stars, planets, trees, and animals all submit to the law and nature under which they were created, and thus are Muslims. Islam is simple - the worship of the uncreated. We believe that God created the human being in order to know Him, and instilled His signs in him and the world around him. While humans are limited, and subject to evil, we do not believe that babies or children are evil by nature. Rather, they are born believing in a Higher Power and wanting to follow it. They are born knowing what is right and wrong in their hearts. God gave that to them.

Here is a nice discussion between student missionaries and a South African Muslim:

 

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9 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

Christianity is a continuation of Judaism. God spoke to them through prophets and scriptures. If they had no concept of original sin, can we really blame them for rejecting Paul's teaching? If the original sin was a central tenet of God's religion, and the Jews had no knowledge of it for thousands of years (despite being in the midst of many prophets), why would they suddenly take it? If James, the brother of Jesus, got it wrong, then who is Paul to get it right? Paul's main authority was his claim to revelation, not the actual teachings of the living Jesus.

Indeed, Christianity is. There was some understanding of original sin in the Hebrew Scriptures. Consider Psalm 51:5, which reads:
"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

12 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

So the original sin, a mistake I had no part in, is the reason why all humans die. Okay. Then Jesus' sacrifice pays for the original sin. So shouldn't the belief in Jesus negate death? Yet, it does not, because the Christian dies the same way as the Muslim dies. Therefore, the belief in Jesus' sacrifice bears no significance, because all go to hell despite their belief. Even Jesus goes to hell, which means God goes to hell? Is it fair to say that there is "neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom" in Jesus' realm, even if it was only three days?

I respect your beliefs, and the Quran talks highly of Christians. We believe that the Christians are sincere in their beliefs and are trying to serve God. However, they have unknowingly deviated from the central message of God, which is His oneness and the Judgment. We believe that Judaism and Christianity are really Islam in their origin, because Islam means Submission to God. Moses never called himself a Jew, and Jesus never called himself a Christian; had they been asked what their religion was, they would say they were servants of God. As long as there was creation, there was Islam. The stars, planets, trees, and animals all submit to the law and nature under which they were created, and thus are Muslims. Islam is simple - the worship of the uncreated. We believe that God created the human being in order to know Him, and instilled His signs in him and the world around him. While humans are limited, and subject to evil, we do not believe that babies or children are evil by nature. Rather, they are born believing in a Higher Power and wanting to follow it. They are born knowing what is right and wrong in their hearts. God gave that to them.

Belief in Jesus does not negate physical death. It negates spiritual death. Once again, I am not a trinitarian, so I do not believe Jesus is God. God did not go to hell.

I am aware of Islam's position on other Abrahamic faiths, and I respect it. I am studying Islam because I want to know whether I have been misguided. Should I find Islam convincing, then I would be more than happy to convert. We will just have to wait and see. I really do appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions and provide the Islamic perspective on the topics I have mentioned. I will make sure to check out the video, as I have seen a couple of other speeches given by Deedat.

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18 hours ago, Qa'im said:

Well if you do not believe Jesus is God, then you have returned to your monotheist instinct. I'd suspect most Christians would already consider you a heretic, so join the club :-P

Indeed, I would be considered a heretic by most modern Christians. We will just have to see about joining the club.

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On 3/31/2016 at 8:02 PM, Elihu said:

I am fully aware that Muslims reject the atonement through Christ, but what is their "alternative"? I was watching a debate between a trinitarian and a Muslim that touched on this subject. It seemed to me that the Muslim believed Allah plainly forgives freely. While this is not inherently strange to me, it does raise another question in my mind. Do Muslims accept that Isaac is the one who led God's people (at that time) into the future? If so, then the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) becomes rather obtuse. The covenants in the Hebrew Scriptures become tedious for no real reason. For example, the Israelites were required to make sacrifices in order to make atonement (Exodus 29:36; Leviticus 4:20). Animals that were to be sacrificed had to be unblemished and Leviticus 17:11 makes it clear that it was the blood that made the atonement (purposely ignoring ties to the Greek Scriptures). However, it was not possible for them (the Israelites) to fully make atonement for their sins with imperfect and lesser creatures (Genesis 1:28; Hebrews 10:1-4). This is where the Christ comes in as the perfect being that would be the atonement for all sins. So if Muslims reject the atonement through Christ, then how do they view the practices of the Israelites in the Hebrew Scriptures?

:salam: 

2:159 Surely those who conceal what We have sent down to them of the clarities and the guidance, after We Had made it clear for the people in the Book; these will be cursed by God and be cursed by those who curse. (i.e., if the mu'minun, that is, the believers in the last scripture; Qur'an and last Prophet; Muhammad (s.a.w) and the people of the book conceal something in their scriptures - they will be cursed by God)

2:160 Except those who repent and amend and clarify (what they had concealed); for those I will accept their repentance, for I am the One who accepts repentance, the Merciful.

2:278 O you who believe, be aware of God and give up what is left from usury, if you are truly believers.

2:279 And if you will not do this, then be informed of a war from God and His messenger; but if you repent, then you will have back your principal money, you will not be wronged nor will you wrong.

5:70 We have taken the covenant of the Children of Israel and We sent to them Our messengers. Every time a messenger came to them with what their souls did not desire, a group of them they would reject, and a group of them they would kill.

5:71 And they did not consider it might be a test, so they were blind and deaf. But God would have accepted the repentance from them; but many of them were still blind and deaf.God is Seer over what they do.

5:72 Rejecters indeed are those who have said: "God is the Messiah, son of Mary." And the Messiah said: "O Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever sets up partners with God, then God will restrict Paradise from him, and his destiny will be the Fire; and the wicked will have no supporters."

5:73 Rejecters indeed are those who have said: "God is third of three!" There is no god except One god. If they do not cease from what they are saying, then those who reject from among them will be afflicted with a painful retribution.

5:74 Would they not repent to God and seek His forgiveness? God is Forgiving, Merciful.

6:54 And if those who believe in Our revelations come to you, then say: "Peace be upon you, our Lord has decreed mercy upon Himself, that any of you who commits sin out of ignorance and then repents afterwards and amends, then He is Forgiving, Merciful.

7:153 As for those who commit sin but then repent afterwards and believe; your Lord after that is Forgiving, Merciful.

22:36 And the plump livestock, We have made them for you to be among the symbols of God; you will have benefitin them. So remember the name of God upon them in succession; then, once their sides have become still, you may eat from them and feed with them the poor and the needy. It was thus that We have commissioned them for you, that you may be thankful.

22:37 Neither their meat nor their blood reaches God, but what reaches Him is the righteousness from you. It was thus that He commissioned them for you, so that you may magnify God for what He has guided you to, and give news to the good doers.

There are several verses, but, I believe these are enough!

_______________________________________________________________

How do Jews obtain forgiveness without sacrifices?

Forgiveness is obtained through repentance, prayer and tzedakah (charity or other good deeds).

In Jewish practice, prayer has taken the place of sacrifices. In accordance with the words of Hosea, we render instead of bullocks the offering of our lips (Hosea 14:3) (please note: the KJV translates this somewhat differently). While dedicating the Temple, King Solomon also indicated that prayer can be used to obtain forgiveness (I Kings 8:46-50). Our prayer services are in many ways designed to parallel the sacrificial practices. For example, we have an extra service on Shabbat, to parallel the extra Shabbat offering. For more information about this, see Jewish Liturgy. As we shall see, the purposes for bringing sacrifice are very similar to the purposes for prayer. 

It is important to note that in Judaism, sacrifice was never the exclusive means of obtaining forgiveness, was not in and of itself sufficient to obtain forgiveness, and in certain circumstances was not even effective to obtain forgiveness. This will be discussed further below. 

 

But isn't a blood sacrifice required in order to obtain forgiveness?

No. Although animal sacrifice is one means of obtaining forgiveness, there are non-animal offerings as well, and there are other means for obtaining forgiveness that do not involve sacrifices at all. The Biblical book of Jonah tells of an entire community condemned to destruction that was forgiven when they simply repented and fasted, without ever offering any sacrifice, blood or otherwise. (Jonah 3) 

The passage that people ordinarily cite for the notion that blood is required is Leviticus 17:11: "For the soul of the flesh is in the blood and I have assigned it for you upon the altar to provide atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that atones for the soul." But the passage that this verse comes from is not about atonement; it is about dietary laws, and the passage says only that blood is used to obtain atonement; not that blood is the only means for obtaining atonement. Leviticus 17:10-12 could be paraphrased as "Don't eat blood, because blood is used in atonement rituals; therefore, don't eat blood." 

http://www.jewfaq.org/qorbanot.htm

_______________________________________________________________

Not to hurt your sentiments, but, many Christian brothers and sisters preach that God loves, if he do love us, why can't he forgive our sins by merely us repenting and amending? Isn't this a sign of love? He forgives us because he loves us? We repent to God, amend our ways and God turn to us and forgive our sins? This is what true love is, it doesn't cost us anything! Just repentance and amending our ways - do righteous deeds, we merely turn to God, he is merciful, loving and he forgives our sins. 

In fact, God's generosity is clearly noted in the following verse. One's good is multiplied beyond its merits. However, the evil is only punished to the extent of the evil that is committed. Despite the evil, the doors still remain open for repentance:

6:160 "He that does good shall have ten times as much to his credit: He that does evil shall only be recompensed according to his evil: no wrong shall be done unto (any of) them"

Our Lord creates us out of nothing. He provides for us, He sustains us.  He gives us guidance, He forgives us. He continues to forgive us if we repent sincerely and amend our ways. He multiplies our goods beyond its merits, but only holds us responsible for the ‘extent’ of our evil deed, nothing more, nothing less.

This is undoubtedly a loving, caring, generous and a merciful God. Indeed He will test us, but we must put our complete faith in Him and His tests. After all, everything is to return to Him anyway.

In the end, if we are judged to receive God's wrath after all His mercy, then truly we would have failed.

"Our Master of the Day of Judgement, the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth and everything in between, the one God of Prophet's Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. (pbut) We are forever yours our Lord, in humble submission. Guide us that seek your grace to the path which leads us closest to the truth, if it is your will.  Protect us from the evil whisperer and those that lead us astray"

Amen.

 

"..DO NOT DESPAIR OF THE MERCY OF GOD.." (Qur'an 39:53 - Part)

Please pardon me I have said anything wrong! May God forgive me for my shortcomings, Amen!

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Hi Qa'im,

I am very interested in what you and Chaotic Muslim wrote, and I am glad that Elihu started the topic because I see some interesting thoughts that I think we can discuss.

 

Quote from your first Post from 31 March:

Theologically speaking, the crucifixion is important to Christians because of the concept of Original Sin. The problem is, neither Jews nor Muslims have such a concept. Original Sin implies that all humans are guilty for the sin of Adam, and are deserving of hellfire. But what's interesting is that God does not send Adam and Eve to hell for their sin, only their descendants, who had nothing to do with their mistake.

 

Response: --- I agree that there is misunderstanding about what is called 'Original sin,' --- However, when you say that Jews had no such concept of 'original sin,' --- it is written in Genesis, is it not? --- Even as it is written in Surah 7:

20 Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live for ever."

21 And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.

22 So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"

23 They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost."

24 God) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood, - for a time."

25 He said: "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)."

 

--- Is this not the concept of 'original sin'?

From this I understand that they admitted guilt and asked God to forgive them or they would be lost. --- I believe they were forgiven and allowed to live in a different form on earth where they had children after their own nature, --- while they had no such children in heaven. --- I believe they were saved, they did not go to hell.

 

--- But God gave this stern warning to their descendants, and any who came after them, as it continues in Surah 7:

26 O ye Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, - that is the best. Such are among the Signs of God, that they may receive admonition!

27 O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.

"But the raiment of righteousness, - that is the best." --- (Which Adam and Eve had to start with.) --- "As He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment (of righteousness)."

So what would you say was their 'original state,' before they were disobedient to God's command?

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Quote

 

'Original sin,' --- it is written in Genesis, is it not? --- Even as it is written in Surah 7:

20 Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live for ever."

21 And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.

22 So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"

23 They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost."

24 God) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood, - for a time."

25 He said: "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)."

 

--- Is this not the concept of 'original sin'?

From this I understand that they admitted guilt and asked God to forgive them or they would be lost. --- I believe they were forgiven and allowed to live in a different form on earth where they had children after their own nature, --- while they had no such children in heaven. --- I believe they were saved, they did not go to hell. - @placid

 

 

 

There has been much debate throughout history and within Islamic literature as to whether the Jannah referred to in the following verse was an earthly abode or a reference to another heavenly location synonymous with the paradise of the afterlife.

002.035 
"And We said: "O Adam! dwell you and your wife in the Garden (Arabic: Janata) and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) you (both) will; but do not (you two) approach this tree, or you (both) will be of the wrongdoers"

 

AN ANALYSIS OF THE TERM JANNAH

 

The Arabic word 'Jannah' is formed from the root word 'Jiim-Nun-Nun' which means to veil, cover, hide or conceal. It forms words such as 'Jinn' as these are entities concealed to one's senses.

 

'Jannah' literally means a 'garden' irrespective of whether it is an abode in the afterlife or elsewhere. It takes its meaning from the dense trees which conceal the ground.

 

 

adam%20a1111.jpg

 

adam%20a2.gif

 

  Source: Edward Lanes Lexicon    [1]

 

 

ADAM (pbuh) WAS MADE FOR THE EARTH

 

The following verse makes it absolutely clear that Adam (pbuh) was created to be placed on Earth as vicegerent. There is no mention of an intermediary abode, or a place in the heavens, but rather, as the verse clearly states, a purpose to be fulfilled on Earth.

002.030 
"Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "Indeed, I am going to place a vicegerent on the earth." They said: "Will You place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Your praises and glorify You?" He said: "Indeed, I know what you know not." 

Furthermore, we continue to read the mention of a garden (Jannah) only a few verses later. There is no disconnect in the theme of the Quranic narrative and therefore there is no reason to assume that the location has changed.

002.035 
"And We said: "O Adam! dwell you and your wife in the Garden (Arabic: Janata) and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) you (both) will; but do not (you two) approach this tree, or you (both) will be of the wrongdoers"

 

 

WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF RECREATING THE UNIVERSE IF A HEAVEN ALREADY EXISTS?

 

In the following verse, it is clear that the Universe will be recreated on the Day of Judgment for the abode of the righteous (Jannah).

021.104 
"The Day that We roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books (completed) - even as We produced the first creation, so shall We produce a new one: a promise We have undertaken: truly shall We fulfil it" 

 

021.105 
"Before this We wrote in the Psalms, after the Message (given to Moses): My servants the righteous, shall inherit the earth"

 

014:048

"(On the) day when the Earth will be changed to other than the Earth, and the heavens (also will be changed) and they will come forth to God, the One, the Almighty" 

 

The Quran also claims this abode to be as wide as the previous Universe.

003:133

"Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Garden whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous"

 

057:021

"Race one with another for forgiveness from your Lord and a Garden where the breadth is as the breadth of the heavens and the earth, prepared for those who believe in God and His messengers. Such is the bounty of God, which He bestows upon whom He will, and God is of Infinite Bounty"

 

 

HOW COULD ADAM (pbuh) HAVE KNOWN OF THE SUN OR ITS HEAT IF HE WAS IN ANOTHER HEAVENLY LOCATION?

 

There is strong suggestion in the following verses that the Garden (Jannat) was in fact in a location where the sun's heat was present. This is not such a far fetched proposition given that plant life would require the energy from the sun to sustain and flourish.

 

However, it is also clear that the state that both Adam (pbuh) and his spouse found themselves did not require them to feel the heat of the sun. If Adam (pbuh) was in a separate location and not aware at that time of an Earthly abode (as he had not yet sinned), then the mention of the heat of the sun would be somewhat meaningless.

020.117 
"Then We said: "O Adam! indeed, this is an enemy to you and your wife: so let him not get you both from the Garden (Jannate), so that you would suffer". 
 

 

020.118 
"Surely it is (ordained) for you that you shall not be hungry therein nor to go naked"

 

020.119 
"
And that you shall not suffer from thirst nor shall you feel the heat of the sun"

It is a difficult proposition to accept that despite Adam (pbuh) being created for the Earth, he was instead introduced into another location, especially when there is no direct evidence in the Quran for such an assertion. Furthermore, it is difficult to accept that he was then given volition to sin to carry it out so that he could be banished to the Earth, the intended location of his abode in the first place.  

It wouldn't be much of a choice if God had actually created him for the Earth and then waited so that Adam (pbuh) could sin before He could accomplish His plan.

A more plausible explanation given the text and the context of the narratives is that Adam (pbuh) was only placed on Earth, the intended location and therein given volition to make choices.  Indeed, the state Adam (pbuh) was introduced into was one where he would neither have to toil to gather necessary provisions for sustenance, felt the heat or thirst, nor would he have felt ashamed of his nakedness (much like the animal kingdom). For all intent and purposes, this was a state of felicity irrespective of being an Earthly abode.

 

It was this state that he was removed from after he had sinned.

002:036

Then did Satan make them slip from it (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get down, (all of you), with enmity between yourselves and for you in the earth will (is) a dwelling-place and your means of livelihood for a time." 

 

'GO DOWN'

007:024

"(God) said "Go down (Arabic: ih'bitu) (from hence) with enmity between yourselves. And on earth will be your dwelling place and livelihood for a time""

The expression 'ih'bitu' is often understood to mean a movement from paradise to planet Earth as a shift between two very different locations. From a Quran's perspective, there is no warrant for such a restrictive interpretation.

 

We note the same expression used for the Children of Israel who were not in any other location but planet Earth.

002:061 (part)

"...Go down (ih'bitu) to Egypt..."

 

The verb 'habata' (ih'bit) simply means a change of state from one (arguably better) to another, to descend from a better state of being to a lower one, a lower rank, state of dignity or a change in condition, to become degraded, or to go forth (as seen in verse 11:48).

 

 

adam%20a2222.gif

 

 Source: Edward Lanes Lexicon    [2]

 

 

Therefore, the expression in verse 7:24 can simply imply a change of state from one better and not necessarily a move from paradise to planet Earth as two very different locations.

 

 

blackfade.gif
 

FINAL THOUGHTS

 

Given the discussions above it appears that both Adam (pbuh) and his spouse were created for the purposes to reside on Earth as vicegerents. What changed was the state of felicity that they initially acquired and after sinning, were subsequently banished from it till a term appointed.

 

 

Related Articles:

(1)   Theory of Evolution and the Quran

(2)   Heaven(s) and Paradise - The Difference

(3)   Are There Seven Heavens or Several Heavens?

 

 

REFERENCES

 

[1] LANE. E.W, Edward Lanes Lexicon, Williams and Norgate 1863; Librairie du Liban Beirut-Lebanon 1968, Volume 2, Page 463

Highlights marked in red on the lexicon excerpt are my own insertions. They have no bearing on the original text other than they emphasise relevance to the topic at hand. These are merely illustrations and have solely been utilised for educational and explanatory purposes.

[2] Ibid., Volume 8, Page 2874

Highlights marked in red on the lexicon excerpt are my own insertions. They have no bearing on the original text other than they emphasise relevance to the topic at hand. These are merely illustrations and have solely been utilised for educational and explanatory purposes.

 

http://quransmessage.com/articles/adam%20and%20jannah%20FM3.htm

Edited by IjazLinorAhmad

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Furthermore, the Qur'an doesn't speak of original sin. It's @placid's own interpretation. No Muslim on this earth will agree with his interpretation. If the Qur'an speak about the original sin. Then kindly BRING AN UNEQUIVOCAL VERSE WHICH STATES SO. The Qur'an is explicit that no one will bear each others burdens and the way to paradise is not a sacrifice, but your good deeds, obedience to God and worship. 

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Hi IjazLinorAhmad,

Are you the same fellow that wrote both posts?

I guess I will answer the second post with what you wrote in the first one since it is the good information of a 'Garden of Delights' in which dwelt 'righteousness.' --- As long as the occupants were in a state of 'righteousness,' they were in harmony with our Righteous God.

 

I should give you something on the location of the Garden of Eden from Genesis 2:

8 The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed.

9 And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

10 Now a river went out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it parted and became four riverheads.

11 The name of the first is Pishon; it is the one which skirts the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold.

13 The name of the second river is Gihon; it is the one which goes around the whole land of Cush.

14 The name of the third river is Hiddekel;[b] it is the one which goes toward the east of Assyria. The fourth river is the Euphrates.

--- The footnote says Tigris. --- Hiddekek is the Hebrew name of the Tigris.

It seemed that these four RIVERHEADS (10) would have come from one source, and separated into four so the land may have shifted geographically later, but we recognize the two rivers, the Tigris and the Euphrates.

--- So between the two rivers is Iraq, --- there in not much doubt that in Iraq, in the 'Fertile Crescent' was where the Garden was.

Adam was set there as a 'vice regent' and he was over all of the animals, etc. --- It continues to say this in Genesis 2:

19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name.

20 So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field.

 

Adam was very involved and this is evidence that the animals were roaming in the same area as Adam. --- If you consider the vast area of the rivers, then you can see that this beautiful Garden was very large, and Adam was in charge of it all.

 

So maybe we should take it slow and establish first whether this is the location of the Garden in the 'Fertile Crescent' somewhere in Iraq.

Do you agree with this, that the Garden of Delights was on earth?

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Hi IjazLinorAhmad,

Now I will respond to your second post where you said:

Quote: Furthermore, the Qur'an doesn't speak of original sin. It's @placid's own interpretation. No Muslim on this earth will agree with his interpretation. If the Qur'an speak about the original sin. Then kindly BRING AN UNEQUIVOCAL VERSE WHICH STATES SO.

 

Response: --- The real 'Original Sin' was with an order of angels that had freedom of choice, and the 'Anointed Cherub' became proud and self-exalted, and rebelled against God, and it says in Ezekiel 28:

14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you;

15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you."

--- That was the 'Original Sin' that happened in 'Eternity past' --- But when God created the 'Viceregent on earth named Adam, --- He also gave him the ability to choose. --- And I think what you 'copy pasted' is quite explanatory.

Quote: 002.035
"And We said: "O Adam! dwell you and your wife in the Garden (Arabic: Janata) and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) you (both) will; but do not (you two) approach this tree, or you (both) will be of the wrongdoers"

 

020.117
"Then We said: "O Adam! indeed, this is an enemy to you and your wife: so let him not get you both from the Garden (Jannate), so that you would suffer".

 

Quote: It wouldn't be much of a choice if God had actually created him for the Earth and then waited so that Adam (pbuh)  could sin before He could accomplish His plan.

A more plausible explanation given the text and the context of the narratives is that Adam (pbuh) was only placed on Earth, the intended location and therein given volition to make choices. Indeed, the state Adam (pbuh) was introduced into was one where he would neither have to toil to gather necessary provisions for sustenance, felt the heat or thirst, nor would he have felt ashamed of his nakedness (much like the animal kingdom). For all intent and purposes, this was a state of felicity irrespective of being an Earthly abode.

It was this state that he was removed from after he had sinned.

--- (Notice what you quoted: "It was this state that he was removed from AFTER HE HAD SINNED.")

 

002:036

Then did Satan make them slip from it (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get down, (all of you), with enmity between yourselves and for you in the earth will (is) a dwelling-place and your means of livelihood for a time."

 

I had used similar verses that say the same, from Surah 7:

22 So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"

23 They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost."

24 God) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood, - for a time."

--- So whether you call it a 'slip' or a 'fall' or a 'sin' or an 'error', --- or a 'selfish act of following the devil's enticement, against God's command,' --- It was all the same incident that caused them to be removed from the Garden, was it not?

--- And since it was the first, 'misstep,' --- 'mistake,' --- 'failure of obedience,' of the Viceregent Adam, --- it is called the "Original Sin" of man.

--- (Notice what you quoted: "It was this state that he was removed from AFTER HE HAD SINNED.")

 

007:024

"(God) said "Go down (Arabic: ih'bitu) (from hence) with enmity between yourselves. And on earth will be your dwelling place and livelihood for a time""

 

The verb 'habata' (ih'bit) simply means a change of state from one (arguably better) to another, to descend from a better state of being to a lower one, a lower rank, state of dignity or a change in condition, to become degraded, or to go forth.

 

Does that not say plainly that Adam lost his position with God because of his action in listening to Satan rather than obeying God's command?

--- So Adam had no excuse, and the penalty was simply according to his error: --- While he was obedient to God, he was in the state of righteousness, or 'state of felicity.'

--- When he followed his own judgment which was influenced by Satan, --- and disobeyed God' command, --- it was a "No return" situation.

 

I can explain this later, but you wouldn't likely believe me anyway, --- so it is sufficient to say that:

Your quote: "It was this state that he was removed from AFTER HE HAD SINNED."

 

--- Do you want to hear it again in another quote?

FINAL THOUGHTS

Given the discussions above it appears that both Adam (pbuh) and his spouse were created for the purposes to reside on Earth as vicegerents. What changed was the state of felicity that they initially acquired and after sinning, were subsequently banished from it till a term appointed.

 

So the 'Final Thoughts' --- or 'conclusion' from the above discussion was:

--- "What changed was the state of felicity that they initially acquired and 'after sinning,' were subsequently banished from it."

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Hi Qa'im,

 

To quote again from your first post 31 March:

This is against the justice of both the Old Testament and the Quran, which teach that everyone is accounted for his/her own actions. After the Original Sin came, God did not rectify this sin right away, but instead waited thousands of years before sending Jesus - putting all of those before Jesus through tedious and unnecessary toil and suffering. Furthermore, this idea of Original Sin guilts an innocent man for our wrongful actions.

 

Response: --- I understand what you are saying because it looked like God put a judgment on all people for a wrong that they had nothing to do with, because it happened before they were born. --- So we are only responsible for our own sin, and our relationship with our One Holy God.

 

In my first respomse I mentioned the verses from the Quran that describe 'the fall' in Surah 7:22.

In the next post by IjazLinorAhmad, the conclusion from the discussion was that:

Quote: Given the discussions above it appears that both Adam (pbuh) and his spouse were created for the purpose to reside on earth as viceregents. --- "What changed was the state of felicity that they initially acquired and, after sinning, were subsequently banished from it."

 

So, I asked "What would you say was their 'original state,' before they were disobedient to God's command?"

--- I was looking for that response, that Muslims believe that Adam was created as a Holy 'being' that started out in harmony with God, --- which continued until Satan was able to deceive him (them) and bring about their 'fall,' --- which they admitted to, and asked forgiveness for. --- However they were removed from their 'state of felicity' and could not return, --- so they went to a lower state.

--- Is that a fair assessment of what Muslims believe?

 

I assume it must be because that is what the discussion concluded.

If you want, I would like to work through this from the time of God's decision to give Adam 'freedom of choice,' --- or, as it is worded in the discussion:

--- "That Adam (pbuh) was only placed on Earth, the intended location and therein given 'volition' to make choices." --- 'Volition' means, 'will' or 'deternination,' to make choices.

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