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Efforts towards unification

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3 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

Not sure to be honest. most likely because of the very close relations that bahai/ the religion has with the state of israel makes the iranian government suspicious? Its not a topic that I have ever paid much attention to but I vaguely remember it being viewed as a political movement not a religion by the state? 

Salam DigitalUmmah,

That's really interesting. I'd like to research more about it.

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I feel very uncomfortable with referring to people as mongrels, it sounds too much like eugenics to me. Id prefer it if we stuck to referring to ideas and philosophies and ideas as mongrels, not human beings :) 

Lol ok :) Mixed ideas and philosophies (and human beings) aren't bad though: just different. 

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Peace and blessings of god be with you too sister

Thanks Bro! :)

I have to go now, but thanks for the interesting discussion and I pray God will help the Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslims to love and respect each other even though they disagree on different topics.

Peace and God bless you and your loved ones!

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13 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Salam GodMan (interesting screenname... curious about it).

Totally reasonable! While I'm not a Muslim, I totally understand the motto you state. It's similar in a way to a Christian motto (1 Corinthians 8:6).

A group can be one yet diverse though. Diversity in unity doesn't take away from unity, because without diversity, people would just be a form of clones or living robots of the same make.

Peace and God bless you

Salam

All of us eating everyday! a repetitive work like robots(robots must be charged their battery everyday). but we are not like robots because each of us doing different things! our staff of life(food) is same, but we are different people. and religion is our soul food and is same, but each one according to his capacity and understanding does it's commands!

I think it's not a problem if the source was same (Even in overview, we only have protein, carbo, fats, and vitamins and minerals, but we have thousands of food, like thousands of religions and sects ). But the matter is making the best food from the sources and Islam and exactly shia is the last version and best human's soul food!

(I don't know could I understood myself or not with my terrible english! hope I could :D)

Peace and God bless you

Edited by GodMan

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6 hours ago, GodMan said:

Peace and God bless you

Thanks GodMan,

Do you mind please if I call you MuslimBro instead of GodMan?

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All of us eating everyday! a repetitive work like robots(robots must be charged their battery everyday).but we are not like robots because each of us doing different things! our staff of life(food) is same, but we are different people. and religion is our soul food and is same, but each one according to his capacity and understanding does it's commands!

So basically you are making the point that religion is the spiritual "daily bread" (Matthew 6:11) for humans? True and excellent point, though Atheists of course disagree.

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I think it's not a problem if the source was same (Even in overview, we only have protein, carbo, fats, and vitamins and minerals, but we have thousands of food, like thousands of religions and sects ).

Awesome analogy!

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But the matter is making the best food from the sources

Ah, but which religion is the best spiritual food? This is the question that has caused, as my Agnostic and Atheist friends say, many of the wars throughout history.

Religious people who are sincere their belief will naturally think that their religion is the best, not the others.

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and Islam

Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslims agree to that, though other religious people don't.

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and exactly shia is the last version and best human's soul food!

See, since you are a sincere Shia Muslim, of course you think your belief is the best. I'm a sincere Christian and of course I think my belief is the best. :) My sincere Sunni Muslim friends think that Sunni Islam is the best. My Jewish friends who believe in G-d think that Judaism is the best. My Hindu friends think every religion is the best as long as their rights and statues are not desecrated. My Buddhist friends think that Buddhism is the best. My Atheist friends think that religion is a man-made tool to manipulate people (to put it nicely lol). 

Personally, I think it's fine for every sincere person of every belief to think that their belief is the best. The problem is when people hurt and kill each other over their disagreements. :( So, unity could start with people simply deciding enough with the killing! No more killing no matter the differences in food! (It would be awful wouldn't it if meat-eating humans killed vegetarians and vegans for not eating meat. In the same way, it's awful that people kill each other over differences in religion.)

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(I don't know could I understood myself or not with my terrible english! hope I could :D)

Your English isn't terrible at all. If I misunderstood you, let me know.

Peace and God bless you :)

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21 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Thanks GodMan,

Do you mind please if I call you MuslimBro instead of GodMan?

So basically you are making the point that religion is the spiritual "daily bread" (Matthew 6:11) for humans? True and excellent point, though Atheists of course disagree.

Awesome analogy!

Ah, but which religion is the best spiritual food? This is the question that has caused, as my Agnostic and Atheist friends say, many of the wars throughout history.

Religious people who are sincere their belief will naturally think that their religion is the best, not the others.

Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslims agree to that, though other religious people don't.

See, since you are a sincere Shia Muslim, of course you think your belief is the best. I'm a sincere Christian and of course I think my belief is the best. :) My sincere Sunni Muslim friends think that Sunni Islam is the best. My Jewish friends who believe in G-d think that Judaism is the best. My Hindu friends think every religion is the best as long as their rights and statues are not desecrated. My Buddhist friends think that Buddhism is the best. My Atheist friends think that religion is a man-made tool to manipulate people (to put it nicely lol). 

Personally, I think it's fine for every sincere person of every belief to think that their belief is the best. The problem is when people hurt and kill each other over their disagreements. :( So, unity could start with people simply deciding enough with the killing! No more killing no matter the differences in food! (It would be awful wouldn't it if meat-eating humans killed vegetarians and vegans for not eating meat. In the same way, it's awful that people kill each other over differences in religion.)

Your English isn't terrible at all. If I misunderstood you, let me know.

Peace and God bless you :)

Hello and Thank you christian lady!

about my name I should say my meaning of GodMan is someone who believes only the God and do everything to satisfy him. he is the soldier of God (something like this is my mean of that name), but if it doesn't mean like what i wanted, let me know... I think you are a native English and can help me to correct it! Also you can call me anything you like.

I didn't and don't know about Matthew and his opinion about daily bread, but yes, that example came to my mind at the moment.

But about your main content, yes, all of us not only think our religion is the best, but also believe ourself are the best human and we understand better than others :grin:

I think, If we want really know what religion is the best, we should explore our inner questions at first in our religion, and when we thought no, it's not enough reasonable answer for my question, start to searching in other big and famous religions. If we found the better answer in other religion, it noticed us to search and know more that religion!

If I said I think our religion is best, cause I can get my all answers in our Quran and or Hadiths, completely and rationally. And when I came to a dead end in my religion. maybe I will search about other religions like Christianity.(although in our Quran Allah says christian religious leaders hide the annunciation to the last prophet Muhammed(SAWS) , or I hear there is some wrong beliefs in Christianity that says Jesus is the son of God(we think as similar as Allah created the Adam he created the Jesus and Allah has no child), or God and Jesus do wrestling and etc, that we Muslim can not accept these things).

Finally about misuse of religion and killing the people, yes, our religion accepts and believes to 124,000 prophets of God, and says all of them are similar and in the one way, and each prophet completed the last prophets religion and remove from bad people distortions, and reached to Islam as the last religion. Also we(Shia) believe, the religion is completed in content and base, but it needs a good teacher like prophet to explain it to people and answer their questions and don't let the bad people to distortions. So we believe on 12 Imam's after our prophet, cause the relation between God and people should not be disconnected.

And we believe our 12th Imam(Imam Mahdi (AS)) is alive, and also your and our prophet Jesus(PBUH) is alive too and they will come a day and survive the world. And many other religions like Jewish believe on savior(although with different definitions).

So, If someone is a really Muslim, he should respect the other people believes, and he is not allowed to kill anyone!
In Quran, Allah says you can only kill Kafir's(they don't believe on God) who offense you and want kill you! in this condition you can defend yourself and kill invaders. Although there is an Ayah in Quran says forgiveness is better than killing! even if someone killed your family!

An other interesting thing in our religion is that, we believe(and it mentioned in Quran too) that, if someone really believes on his religion, and he did researching and find his religion the best, if he dies, Allah will audit him on his heart believes and his religion in doomsday! (It means Paradise is not only for Muslims, and If you really searched and found your religion the best, and you did your religious obligations good, you can go there too!)

 

Peace and Allah bless you!

Edited by GodMan

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On 1/7/2016 at 6:02 AM, GodMan said:

Hello and Thank you christian lady!about my name I should say my meaning of GodMan is someone who believes only the God and do everything to satisfy him. he is the soldier of God (something like this is my mean of that name), but if it doesn't mean like what i wanted, let me know... I think you are a native English and can help me to correct it! Also you can call me anything you like.

Hello MuslimBro,

Thanks for explaining your screenname. I understand where you are coming from now. :) Well, I don't think the forum leaders have an issue with your name, so I don't think you need to change it.

When I think GodMan, I think of Jesus Christ, who I believe is God incarnated into human flesh.  However, I understand you are meaning soldier of God, yeah?

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I didn't and don't know about Matthew and his opinion about daily bread, but yes, that example came to my mind at the moment.

That's actually not Apostle Matthew's opinion; those are Jesus Christ's words in his example of how to pray.

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But about your main content, yes, all of us not only think our religion is the best, but also believe ourself are the best human and we understand better than others :grin:

Lol I disagree.  I don't think we think we are the best humans. I am a Christian because I believe Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life: the Only way to the Father (God). I understand Muslims believe that Islam is the only true religion. I respect their view but disagree with them, same as Muslims disagree with my view. :) I'm not better than Muslims and Muslims are not better than me. We are all humans who believe what we believe is the truth. 

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I think, If we want really know what religion is the best, we should explore our inner questions at first in our religion, and when we thought no, it's not enough reasonable answer for my question, start to searching in other big and famous religions. If we found the better answer in other religion, it noticed us to search and know more that religion!

If I said I think our religion is best, cause I can get my all answers in our Quran and or Hadiths, completely and rationally. And when I came to a dead end in my religion. maybe I will search about other religions like Christianity.(although in our Quran Allah says christian religious leaders hide the annunciation to the last prophet Muhammed(SAWS) , or I hear there is some wrong beliefs in Christianity that says Jesus is the son of God(we think as similar as Allah created the Adam he created the Jesus and Allah has no child), or God and Jesus do wrestling and etc, that we Muslim can not accept these things).

 

Thanks for explaining. :)

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Finally about misuse of religion and killing the people, yes, our religion accepts and believes to 124,000 prophets of God, and says all of them are similar and in the one way, and each prophet completed the last prophets religion and remove from bad people distortions, and reached to Islam as the last religion. Also we(Shia) believe, the religion is completed in content and base, but it needs a good teacher like prophet to explain it to people and answer their questions and don't let the bad people to distortions. So we believe on 12 Imam's after our prophet, cause the relation between God and people should not be disconnected.


 

Since the Shia and the Sunni have the biggest groups of Muslims, it is very important for them to love each other and agree to disagree in their differences, yes?

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And we believe our 12th Imam(Imam Mahdi (AS)) is alive, and also your and our prophet Jesus(PBUH) is alive too and they will come a day and survive the world. And many other religions like Jewish believe on savior(although with different definitions).

Jesus Christ promised his return centuries before Muhammad said anything about him.

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So, If someone is a really Muslim, he should respect the other people believes, and he is not allowed to kill anyone!

He should love other people no matter if they are pagan or Atheist or Christian or of any belief?

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In Quran, Allah says you can only kill Kafir's(they don't believe on God) who offense you and want kill you! in this condition you can defend yourself and kill invaders. Although there is an Ayah in Quran says forgiveness is better than killing! even if someone killed your family!

I 100% agree that forgiveness is better than killing! If Sunnis and Shias would decide to forgive each other, that would be awesome!!!

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An other interesting thing in our religion is that, we believe(and it mentioned in Quran too) that, if someone really believes on his religion, and he did researching and find his religion the best, if he dies, Allah will audit him on his heart believes and his religion in doomsday! (It means Paradise is not only for Muslims, and If you really searched and found your religion the best, and you did your religious obligations good, you can go there too!)

God decides who goes to Heaven.

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Peace and Allah bless you!

Shukran :) Peace and God bless you too!

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On 1/5/2016 at 6:09 AM, DigitalUmmah said:

Not sure to be honest. most likely because of the very close relations that bahai/ the religion has with the state of israel makes the iranian government suspicious? Its not a topic that I have ever paid much attention to but I vaguely remember it being viewed as a political movement not a religion by the state? 

Bahais were persecuted in Iran in the 19th century, before Israel existed. The founder, Baha'u'llah, was exiled to Iraq by the Shah of Iran, and then sent as a prisoner to Palestine by the Ottoman rulers, arriving there in 1868. 

Yes, the state-sponsored media in Iran, and Iranian diplomats at the UN, regularly say that the Bahai Faith is not a religion, but rather a political movement. This is because the constitution guarantees religious freedom in Iran, so they have to define the Bahai religion as a non-religion.  However the reason it is persecuted, is because it IS a religion, founded after Islam, and they believe that "seal of the prophets" means that God's hands are chained forever. And it is a religious community without any clerical class -- scholars in the Bahai community have no authority, as the community is run by elected "assemblies" of lay people. Those are the main religious reasons for the persecution of the Bahais. The persecution also entails the confiscation of Bahai properties, so there is an economic motivation as well. 

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On 4/9/2016 at 4:04 PM, Sen McGlinn said:

Bahais were persecuted in Iran in the 19th century, before Israel existed. The founder, Baha'u'llah, was exiled to Iraq by the Shah of Iran, and then sent as a prisoner to Palestine by the Ottoman rulers, arriving there in 1868. 

Yes, the state-sponsored media in Iran, and Iranian diplomats at the UN, regularly say that the Bahai Faith is not a religion, but rather a political movement. This is because the constitution guarantees religious freedom in Iran, so they have to define the Bahai religion as a non-religion.  However the reason it is persecuted, is because it IS a religion, founded after Islam, and they believe that "seal of the prophets" means that God's hands are chained forever. And it is a religious community without any clerical class -- scholars in the Bahai community have no authority, as the community is run by elected "assemblies" of lay people. Those are the main religious reasons for the persecution of the Bahais. The persecution also entails the confiscation of Bahai properties, so there is an economic motivation as well. 

Mr Sen McGlinn

The point which you mentioned about the Baha’i persecution in Iran before the formation of Israel was because at that time Baha'ism and its predecessor were movements propped up by the erstwhile Czar regime of Russia who were the traditional political rivals of the Iranian monarchy. At least you agree that after the creation of Israel, Bahaism has been accommodated inside the occupied state. And they carry out the agenda of Israel in various countries including Iran, which justifies their persecution. Any group which works for an enemy country has to be under watch. I am sure you will agree to that.

If according to Baha’is they have to be law abiding citizens and if the law of the land of Israel doesn’t permit them to spread their ideology in the occupied territory (Israel) similarly Iran too does not allow treason and hence keeps a close eye on them like any other nation for the security of its people.

Why do the Bahai’s follow law in letter and spirit in Israel and not in Iran????

Terming the concept of finality of Prophethood as ‘chaining the hands of God’ is absolutely misleading because in Shia Islam guidance continues in the form of Imamate till the Day of Judgment which the Bahais don’t believe in. You can educate yourself about the concept of Finality of Prophet at thebahaitruth.com

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Basher, it appears you have been misinformed. The Bahais were never supported by the Czar. This story was put about in a fake document known as the Memoirs of Count Dolgorukov. The 'memoirs' are written in Persian, and were published in Mashhad. They cannot possibly be written by Count Dolgorukov (a real Russian diplomat, aka Dolgoruki) who served as the ambassador to Tehran from 1846 to 1854. But the Babi Faith began in 1844. The memoir claims that Dolgorukov came to Persia in 1834 as a translator for the Russian embassy. But from 1832 to 1837, he was actually the Secretary of Russian Legation in the Hague, the Netherlands. Therefore historians - except for some who believe this Russian had the miraculous ability to be in two places at the same time - have concluded that the memoirs are fictitious. Among the Iranian historians who have rejected the memoirs' authenticity are 'Abbas Iqbal-Ashtiyani, Ahmad Kasravi, and Mujtaba Minuvi. As to the real author, Mina Yazdani has suggested Shaykh Ibrahim Zanjani (Mina Yazdani, "The Confessions of Dolgoruki: Fiction and Master narrative in Twentieth-Century Iran." Iranian Studies 44.1, pp. 42-45, 2011).

See more: http://debunking-myths.blogspot.co.nz/  

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I see you also claimed that Bahais carry out the agenda of Israel. An empty claim, with no specifics and no evidence. The Government of Iran has been claiming this since 1979, and have yet to find a single notebook, letter or email as evidence. The claim is in any case idiotic: Bahais in Iran are excluded from working in the civil service, from higher ranks in the military (they do serve as soldiers), and they are under constant surveillance. Their houses are regularly raided. If Israel was seeking agents in Iran (it no doubt has some) it would not accept Bahais! Israel would want good Shiah men who can work in the military and in government departments, and who will not be watched closely by the Ministry of Information.  

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Well Mr, Sen McGlinn

Your silence on the issue of continuation of guidance in the form of Imamat till the end of the world is noted.

Your silence on the double standards of Baha’is not propagating in Israel but propagating in Iran is also noted.

You are also unable to defend the Baha’i cult on its silence on the atrocities of Israel against Humanity while at the same time crying their lungs out on what they claim as atrocities against themselves.

The Baha’i support for Israel is an open fact. The patronage which they receive in Israel is not hidden from anyone. The Baha’is have reciprocated this patronage by not uttering a single word against the atrocities of Israel against humanity. Iran has been on the forefront opposing these atrocities. Hence, it is unreasonable on the part of Baha’is to expect any soft corner from Iran as long as they owe their allegiance to a country which is always at loggerheads with Iran. The genocide that Israel commits on the Muslims daily is far more gruesome than what the Baha’is are claiming as atrocities against them in Iran.

As for your denial of the Russian involvement in supporting Baha’is you have resorted to blatant lies by trying to confuse two people with similar surnames, one in Iran and the other in Netherlands. However, the book Dawn Breakers available on official Baha’i website contradicts your claim of no Russian involvement.

On page 603 Footnote 2 of the book the Dawn Breakers, the presence of Prince Dalgourki as the Russian ambassador in Iran has been documented.

In addition we also find the following words in the same book Pg. 650

“The Russian minister, as soon as he learned of the action which the government contemplated taking, volunteered to take Bahá’u’lláh under his protection, and invited Him to go to Russia…”

When Baha’ullah was being exiled to Iraq he was given the official protection by the Russian delegation. This fact is also documented in the book Dawn Breakers available on official Baha’i website in the following words

“… and (Baha’ullah was) escorted by a member of the imperial body-guard and an official representing the Russian legation, set out from Tihrán on His journey to Baghdád”.

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/nz/DB/db-45.html

Now you have a choice – either you accept the Russian support for Baha’is or deny your own documented history.

Or a better suggestion – stop fooling and cheating the Muslim Ummah and the followers of other divine religions.

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1 hour ago, basher said:

As for your denial of the Russian involvement in supporting Baha’is you have resorted to blatant lies by trying to confuse two people with similar surnames, one in Iran and the other in Netherlands.

You can check the facts on Dolgorukov's life yourself, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimitri_Ivanovich_Dolgorukov
This shows that he was in Europe when his "memoirs" say he was in Iran creating the Babi movement, and was dead when his "memoirs" say he was helping Baha'u'llah. 

 

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You are continuing your silence on Bahai support to Israeli genocides. 

 

 

And we are witnessing how you are insulting your own books by countering the references from the Dawn Breakers with a wilipedia article!!

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