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salam,

i'd like to learn about genesis 6:1-7

1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them,
2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.
3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.
6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.
7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth--men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air--for I am grieved that I have made them."
ws

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Hello my friend.   I am new around here but maybe i can help.   I was told a way to read the bible for interpertation is to look at both the whole message and each verse.   Starting with verse 1.   verse 1 says that as men or the population of man began to increase as more babies were born.   This is in the days before Noah and the flood of the earth. 

verse 2.  The sons of God.   and daughters of men.   There are many different views on this.   some say that the sons of God were angels and others say they were a more pure or closer to God.   I don't know what is right except that they are 2 different people groups.   These two groups were intermarrying.   

verse 3 here God is saying and limiting the length of time that a man will live.   Before this time people lived for hundreds of years.   after this people were limited to around 120 years of age.

verse 4. The nephilim.   These are giants.   people who were very tall and very powerful.   Like everyone else except for a few they were full of sin and because of thier size and strength they were bullies.   They also were intermarrying and having children with the rest of the people groups on earth.   It also says that these men were heros.   The children of mixed people groups were great warriors and heros.

Verse 5 .God saw the sin of man spread across the earth.   He could see how we had done horrible things because of sin.   The second half says every inclination of thoughts of his heart was only evil.   This is saying that every thought that every person had was about sin.   There was nothing good in the hearts of man.   

verse 6 The Lord was grieved.   No the Lord wasn't shocked because the Lord knows all and knew what was going to happen already.   His heart filled with pain.   This whole verse is assuming that the Lord God is human-like.   Does the God in heaven have a heart like we do?   we don't know but we like to pull God down to being equal with us.   God was unhappy with what we had done on earth.

Verse 7 - God is going to wipe every living thing off of the earth.   As a people we are to bring glory to God.   Looking at verse 5 we are spreading sin and not glory on earth and verse 6 shows us that God isn't happy.   Verse 7 shows what God want to do to punish us for not doing what He wants us to do.   

Verse 8  But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.   God found one family on earth that is worthy of saving because they are doing what God wants.

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Hi Chris, 

Welcome to the forum.

This is one of those thick subjects because regardless of what the sons of God are, we have no hard evidence, probably because they are spiritual. There were a few races of people much larger than the "Jews"  which may be confusing the issue. Genesis 6:4 first describes giants in the land, "and also after that" sons of God. It doesn't explicitly say the giants were sons of God, nor vice versa.

The difference in this forum lies in the interpretation of the Quran that states God could not have a son. This comes in context that Jesus is not the son of God, as in there is nothing becoming about God having a human son. With that I can agree, but the sons of God are different.

According to the Bible angels have been called the sons of God, and there was no reference that a human ever was, not even the Nephilim were called sons of God. Only in the NT do we see Jesus being called the Son of God, not by Himself, but from those around Him. Possibly the people who could get close enough to Jesus comprehended the spirit within Him and considered it "not of this world" thus must be of God. If the closest reference they had was the OT "sons of God", they would use the term.

Were they accurate or did Jesus get caught up in the law of association?

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Sometime two jummahs ago, we were discussing with brother Mahdi & brother Hamza about these giants & it was highlighted that these giants, the nephilim were the group of jinns that were sent away together with iblis, they descended in this period above & assumed a human form & caused corruption on the land???

Was just wondering...

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salam,

i was hoping to read " The promised one in the Qur'an" when i came across this...

The Fallen Angels the Kabbalah was devised in the sixth century BC, as an aberration of Judaism, which combined Babylonian magic and astrology.  It was from this point onward that the Bible was compiled, and evidently underwent some corruption in order to incorporate these new teachings.  To understand the history of the Illuminati, it is therefore first necessary to look at the Bible.  There, by assessing the claims of their descent, we can determine the nature of the Illuminati beliefs, before we can then follow the evolution of their conspiracy over time, from the days of Herod the Great, to the Khazars, the Crusades, and finally to our time, and the advent of al Qaeda. The Illuminati claim descent from the Fallen Angels, from whom they supposedly learned the “Ancient Wisdom”, also known as the Kabbalah.  These “Fallen Angels” are referred to in the Bible, Book of Genesis, as the Neph’i-lim, or “Sons of God”, and were said to have descended to earth and intermarried with human beings. Christian interpretations struggle with the passage, choosing to translate the term into “mighty men”.  However, apocryphal Jewish texts explain that they were the Lucifer and his legions, who were cast out of Heaven, and took wives from the female descendants of Cain.  They produced a race, according to the Bible, known as the Anakim.   According to the Illuminati, it is these other-worldly beings who first introduced humanity to the occult arts, including astrology, magic and alchemy.  This account of history is believed by occultists to accord with that of the lost continent of Atlantis, and that the race produced by the intermixing of these Fallen Angels and humans is thought to be the Aryans.  Supposedly, their corruption caused great corruption on the earth, to such an extent that, according to these same Apocryphal works, God decided to destroy them through the Flood.

 

 

Basically, the ancient pagans’ belief was dualistic.  They believed there to be two powers in Heaven, a good God and evil one (‘we’ always maintain that Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is ONE & it is difficult to define His ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì essence. Think of positive & negative, on & off, right & left, above & below, in & out, Hot & cold, wet or dry etc. till beyond infinity, yet one can never attribute Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì to any one of the opposites like defined that there is no good god & a bad god . Talib). because he was believed to journey there in winter, the dying-god was regarded as the god of the Underworld, reigning over the souls of the dead, and therefore identified with evil.  This led to the practice of black magic.  To protect oneself from him, or to summon his powers to command spirits against one’s enemies, it was believed necessary to perform heinous sacrifices.  Most common was the sacrifice of children, rites which were performed in drunkenness, attended with loud music, to drown out the screams of the suffering child, and followed by sexual orgies. 1 These were the basis of the rites later known as “Mysteries”.

The Medes According to Kabbalistic interpretation, the entire line of Jewish kings were descended from Joseph and Tamar, his daughter-in-law, a Canaanite woman who had disguised herself as a prostitute in order to seduce him.  Their son Perez was David’s ancestor.  Solomon, to whom much of Kabbalistic tradition is attributed, was the son of David from Bathsheba, a Hittite woman.  Therefore, according to Kabbalistic interpretation, though the Messiah is to be a descendant of the royal line of David, being the “Son of David”, he is also descended from the satanic lineage of the Fallen Angels, through the Canaanites.  Therefore, through intermarriage with the Canaanites, the later Cabbalists could claim descent from the Anakim, and the Fallen Angels, or Lucifer and his legions. These Anakim, supposedly, were the original inhabitants of Atlantis, or Aryans.  The Aryans are considered by the Illuminati to be the original core bloodline, a hybrid of humans and “divine” beings, responsible for the preservation of occult knowledge.  

  "Wisdom is the lost property of the Believer, let him claim it wherever he finds it" Imam Ali (as) 

ws 

 

Edited by Mzwakhe
forgot something

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On Thursday, December 24, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Mzwakhe said:

salam,

i'd like to learn about genesis 6:1-7

1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them,
2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.
3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.
6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.
7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth--men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air--for I am grieved that I have made them."
ws

This is mythical stuff written 500BC. Dont try to make history from this. We cannot expect any person that long after Adam to know exactly what happened.

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The most important point to understand in this section is that of the term nefilim [נפלים] which is the plural passive participle of nofel [נופל] from the verb nafal [נפל] which meant to fall- the passive meant fallen and the plural indicated those who had fallen. The first mention of this is in the narrative concerning Qayin bin Adam- who murdered his brother Avel.

וַיֹּ֥אמֶר יְהוָ֖ה אֶל־קָ֑יִן לָ֚מָּה חָ֣רָה לָ֔ךְ וְלָ֖מָּה נָפְל֥וּ פָנֶֽיךָ׃ 

WayYomer YHWH el-Qayin, lammah charah lakh wa lammah noflu paneykha- And YHWH said to Qayin, why are you angry and why has your countenance fallen?

The verb noflu [נפלו] is plural only because the Hebrew word for face/countenance/presence is plural- although it has a singular meaning.

The sons of Qayin followed in their father's example of murder- which is understood in the narrative of Lamech. All of Qayin's descendants were the manufacturers of instruments of pleasure and violence- they were also the first to begin to amass and hoard wealth and property. 

Not one place in the story of the flood were angels mentioned nor were they subject to divine wrath or punishment- only humans and those affected by their violence. In the narrative, it is clear that it was humans in question- the sons of Elohim were the sons of Adam, the sons of Adam were the sons of Qayin- it was the mixing of the godly lineage with the ungodly which was responsible for the spread of violence and corruption in the earth. 

 הַנְּפִלִ֞ים הָי֣וּ בָאָרֶץ֮ בַּיָּמִ֣ים הָהֵם֒ וְגַ֣ם אַֽחֲרֵי־כֵ֗ן אֲשֶׁ֨ר יָבֹ֜אוּ בְּנֵ֤י הָֽאֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־בְּנֹ֣ות הָֽאָדָ֔ם וְיָלְד֖וּ לָהֶ֑ם הֵ֧מָּה הַגִּבֹּרִ֛ים אֲשֶׁ֥ר מֵעֹולָ֖ם אַנְשֵׁ֥י הַשֵּֽׁם׃ 

HanNefilim hayyu baArets bayYom haheim wa gam acharei-khein asher yavo benei haElohim el-banoth haAdam wayyallidu lahem heimmah hagGevarim asher meiOlam anashei HashShem

The fallen were in the earth in those days, and after that the sons of God went to the daughters of men and bore children to them; these were the men of war which were men of renoun from ancient times.

Yaaqov ben Yisrael

 

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5932817ebf9ba_aladyagiant!.jpg.d5cf8a6e807298dfe0d1fbde647acdde.jpgsalam,

someone gave a poor depiction of these things in the movie Noah.

ws

images.jpg

graped giant.jpg

Edited by Mzwakhe
pics indicating the proportion of things

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On 4/22/2017 at 0:32 AM, Yaaqov Ben Yisrael said:

The most important point to understand in this section is that of the term nefilim [נפלים] which is the plural passive participle of nofel [נופל] from the verb nafal [נפל] which meant to fall- the passive meant fallen and the plural indicated those who had fallen.

It also may be interesting to note that the sons of God, aka nefilim, are mentioned as being the sons of "Elohim", by Yehovah, that is to say, by God Almighty.

Strongs interpretation of yeh-ho-vaw is;

Jehovah = "the existing One"

1) the proper name of the one true God 
1a) unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of H136

Strongs interpretation of Elohim is;

1) (plural) 
1a) rulers, judges 
1b) divine ones 
1c) angels 
1d) gods 
2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 
2a) god, goddess 
2b) godlike one 
2c) works or special possessions of God 
2d) the (true) God 
2e) God

They were quite possibly the sons of fallen angels, or the fallen angels created by Elohim.

Even though Trinitarians like to consider them one in the same, you can see there is a difference. 

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7 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

It also may be interesting to note that the sons of God, aka nefilim, are mentioned as being the sons of "Elohim", by Yehovah, that is to say, by God Almighty.

Strongs interpretation of yeh-ho-vaw is;

Jehovah = "the existing One"

1) the proper name of the one true God 
1a) unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of H136

Strongs interpretation of Elohim is;

1) (plural) 
1a) rulers, judges 
1b) divine ones 
1c) angels 
1d) gods 
2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 
2a) god, goddess 
2b) godlike one 
2c) works or special possessions of God 
2d) the (true) God 
2e) God

They were quite possibly the sons of fallen angels, or the fallen angels created by Elohim.

Even though Trinitarians like to consider them one in the same, you can see there is a difference. 

The  nefilim  were  the  result  of  the  sons  of  God  going into  the  sons  of  men; there  is  never  any  condemnation  in  the  Hebrew  text against  any  angelic  being  for  this  act-  only  against  humans  and  all  that  they  corrupted.

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6 hours ago, Yaaqov Ben Yisrael said:

The  nefilim  were  the  result  of  the  sons  of  God  going into  the  sons  of  men; there  is  never  any  condemnation  in  the  Hebrew  text against  any  angelic  being  for  this  act-  only  against  humans  and  all  that  they  corrupted.

You are right, it also doesn't explicitly say they were the actual cause of the corruption of men. God isn't testing the angels, it's mankind He's interested in. It would seem mankind is able to conjure it's own corruption.

Not much at all about fallen angels in the OT, then again, it's confusing. The OT describes "evil" as a separation from God, not as "derived from a bad spiritual entity", as thought of today. The word used for satan in the book of Job means "adversary". The same word was used for the angel that blocked Balaam’s path in Numbers 22. Jacob was able to wrestle with an angel. 

There are also angels mentioned in the description of the Holy Temple in Jerusalem, as if angels were common place and visible to all. 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

You are right, it also doesn't explicitly say they were the actual cause of the corruption of men. God isn't testing the angels, it's mankind He's interested in. It would seem mankind is able to conjure it's own corruption.

Not much at all about fallen angels in the OT, then again, it's confusing. The OT describes "evil" as a separation from God, not as "derived from a bad spiritual entity", as thought of today. The word used for satan in the book of Job means "adversary". The same word was used for the angel that blocked Balaam’s path in Numbers 22. Jacob was able to wrestle with an angel. 

There are also angels mentioned in the description of the Holy Temple in Jerusalem, as if angels were common place and visible to all. 

 

 

I am not doubting the validity of angelic beings- simply because we only see in the "visible" range of light, does not mean that which reflects light which exists past violet or red does not exist.

God is in control- both of good and bad. According to the Hebrew Text, evil angels come from God himself. This is similar to Al-Qadr, khairuhu wa sharruhu min Allah [the Decree, its good and evil, is from Allah].

Satan was first used as a title of duty to the Mal'akh YHWH [angel of YHWH]. This duty was to oppose/resist the evil inclinations of humanity; this was why the mal'akh YHWH was set in the path of Balaam- as Satan for him [lesatan lo]. Many translate this as an infinitive, but that is absolutely wrong. 

Satan, in the Hebrew text, is a faithful servant of God; his job is to prove/test humanity; in fact, there are no angels with free will to disobey God in the Hebrew Scriptures- that concept came later when Jews were introduced to the teachings of Zoroaster- the dualistic battle between Ahura Mazd and Angra Mainu.

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On 15/06/2017 at 5:15 AM, Yaaqov Ben Yisrael said:

I am not doubting the validity of angelic beings- simply because we only see in the "visible" range of light, does not mean that which reflects light which exists past violet or red does not exist.

God is in control- both of good and bad. According to the Hebrew Text, evil angels come from God himself. This is similar to Al-Qadr, khairuhu wa sharruhu min Allah [the Decree, its good and evil, is from Allah].

Satan was first used as a title of duty to the Mal'akh YHWH [angel of YHWH]. This duty was to oppose/resist the evil inclinations of humanity; this was why the mal'akh YHWH was set in the path of Balaam- as Satan for him [lesatan lo]. Many translate this as an infinitive, but that is absolutely wrong. 

Satan, in the Hebrew text, is a faithful servant of God; his job is to prove/test humanity; in fact, there are no angels with free will to disobey God in the Hebrew Scriptures- that concept came later when Jews were introduced to the teachings of Zoroaster- the dualistic battle between Ahura Mazd and Angra Mainu.

Salam Yaaqov,  so are you saying the Shaytan of the Quran and the Satan of the Tanakh are the same? And they are the faithful servants of God? 

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On 6/29/2017 at 4:26 AM, MohammadAli1993 said:

Salam Yaaqov,  so are you saying the Shaytan of the Quran and the Satan of the Tanakh are the same? And they are the faithful servants of God? 

The OT describes an individual satan, fallen from grace,becomes an adversary, (although the relationship is odd for "enemies"). According to Isaiah, satan became proud of his position and decided to raise his throne above that of God, somewhere in the far North region of  (presumably) Heaven. 

God uses satan to prove the worthiness of Job. There's no actual verses that mention satan used to "test" humans other than tempting Jesus in the NT. There really isn't much more than an implied relationship between satan and Jesus, they seem to be straight out enemies.  As a Christian, one is taught that there is good and evil and no middle ground. The Gospel of Timothy goes into more spiritual detail than the books in the Bible. Some of it is rather gory which is possibly why it didn't make the Bible.    

In the NT satan is more of an adversary, cast out of heaven to earth and something Christians are to battle. According to John's revelation, he took a third of the angels with him. Most Christians would run if they actually encountered a demon.

In Islam, iblis is somewhat clouded by the concept of Jinn.

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44 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

satan, fallen from grace

This is his falling, according to Milton

( Nothing to do with the thread, I just love the poem, I hope you enjoy it too )

 

But the sword          

Of Michaël from the armoury of God     

Was given him tempered so that neither keen    

Nor solid might resist that edge: it met  

The sword of Satan, with steep force to smite   

Descending, and in half cut sheer; nor stayed,           

 

But, with swift wheel reverse, deep entering, shared       

All his right side. Then Satan first knew pain,     

And writhed him to and fro convolved; so sore  

The griding sword with discontinuous wound     

Passed through him. But the ethereal substance closed,       

Not long divisible; and from the gash    

A stream of nectarous humour issuing flowed    

Sanguin, such as celestial Spirits may bleed,     

 

And all his armour stained, erewhile so bright,    

Forthwith, on all sides, to his aid was run                   

By Angels many and strong, who interposed     

Defence, while others bore him on their shields  

 

Back to his chariot where it stood retired           

From off the files of war: there they him laid      

Gnashing for anguish, and despite, and shame       

 

To find himself not matchless, and his pride      

Humbled by such rebuke, so far beneath           

His confidence to equal God in power.  

Yet soon he healed; for Spirits, that live throughout       

Vital in every part—not, as frail Man,            

In entrails, heart or head, liver or reins—

Cannot but by annihilating die;

:)

 

 

 

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On 7/2/2017 at 5:25 PM, Son of Placid said:

The OT describes an individual satan, fallen from grace,becomes an adversary, (although the relationship is odd for "enemies"). According to Isaiah, satan became proud of his position and decided to raise his throne above that of God, somewhere in the far North region of  (presumably) Heaven. 

God uses satan to prove the worthiness of Job. There's no actual verses that mention satan used to "test" humans other than tempting Jesus in the NT. There really isn't much more than an implied relationship between satan and Jesus, they seem to be straight out enemies.  As a Christian, one is taught that there is good and evil and no middle ground. The Gospel of Timothy goes into more spiritual detail than the books in the Bible. Some of it is rather gory which is possibly why it didn't make the Bible.    

In the NT satan is more of an adversary, cast out of heaven to earth and something Christians are to battle. According to John's revelation, he took a third of the angels with him. Most Christians would run if they actually encountered a demon.

In Islam, iblis is somewhat clouded by the concept of Jinn.

11

Not entirely. 

Nowhere in the Hebrew Text is Satan said to be disobedient, nor fallen from the service of YHWH.

God tests the believers- Abraham was tested with the offering of his son; the Israelites are tested by YHWH with false prophets, etc.

Satan, Iblis, was an Angel- otherwise, he could not have disobeyed Allah when ordered to prostrate to Adam as the Qur'an made it clear tha the command was given to the Angels. The word jinn came from the verb J-N-N which meant to cover, conceal. In the Qur'an it is used as a verb in the narrative of Abraham [فلما جنّ عليه اليل] falamma janna alaihi -llail so when the night covered him (6:77). The angelic order which followed Satan in his rebellion were called Jinn because they were debarred from entering the heavens again: for instance,

وَأَنَّا لَمَسْنَا السَّمَاءَ فَوَجَدْنَاهَا مُلِئَتْ حَرَسًا شَدِيدًا وَشُهُبًا

And that we sought to reach heaven, but we found it filled with strong guards and flaming stars 72:8

يَا مَعْشَرَ الْجِنِّ وَالْإِنْسِ إِنِ اسْتَطَعْتُمْ أَنْ تَنْفُذُوا مِنْ أَقْطَارِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ فَانْفُذُوا ۚ لَا تَنْفُذُونَ إِلَّا بِسُلْطَانٍ

O assembly of the jinn and the men! If you are able to pass through the regions of the heavens and the earth, then pass through; you cannot pass through but with authority. 55:33

Hence, the heavens were closed to them and guards were set upon it to debar them from entering it again.

 

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15 hours ago, Yaaqov Ben Yisrael said:

Not entirely. 

Nowhere in the Hebrew Text is Satan said to be disobedient, nor fallen from the service of YHWH.

God tests the believers- Abraham was tested with the offering of his son; the Israelites are tested by YHWH with false prophets, etc.

Satan, Iblis, was an Angel- otherwise, he could not have disobeyed Allah when ordered to prostrate to Adam as the Qur'an made it clear tha the command was given to the Angels. The word jinn came from the verb J-N-N which meant to cover, conceal. In the Qur'an it is used as a verb in the narrative of Abraham [فلما جنّ عليه اليل] falamma janna alaihi -llail so when the night covered him (6:77). The angelic order which followed Satan in his rebellion were called Jinn because they were debarred from entering the heavens again: for instance,

وَأَنَّا لَمَسْنَا السَّمَاءَ فَوَجَدْنَاهَا مُلِئَتْ حَرَسًا شَدِيدًا وَشُهُبًا

And that we sought to reach heaven, but we found it filled with strong guards and flaming stars 72:8

يَا مَعْشَرَ الْجِنِّ وَالْإِنْسِ إِنِ اسْتَطَعْتُمْ أَنْ تَنْفُذُوا مِنْ أَقْطَارِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ فَانْفُذُوا ۚ لَا تَنْفُذُونَ إِلَّا بِسُلْطَانٍ

O assembly of the jinn and the men! If you are able to pass through the regions of the heavens and the earth, then pass through; you cannot pass through but with authority. 55:33

Hence, the heavens were closed to them and guards were set upon it to debar them from entering it again.

 

That becomes somewhat confusing. Jinn are supposed to be common people without bodies, born of smokeless fire.

The Revelation of John speaks of a third of the angels being expelled from Heaven due to them following satan, at the time of Christ's death.

Demons are not jinn. They are the fallen angels John's revelation speaks of. In my experience, "jinn" seem to follow demons, but are far inferior in ability.

There seems to be a crossover in the above train of thought, or something I'm missing. 

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On 7/8/2017 at 7:41 AM, Son of Placid said:

That becomes somewhat confusing. Jinn are supposed to be common people without bodies, born of smokeless fire.

The Revelation of John speaks of a third of the angels being expelled from Heaven due to them following satan, at the time of Christ's death.

Demons are not jinn. They are the fallen angels John's revelation speaks of. In my experience, "jinn" seem to follow demons, but are far inferior in ability.

There seems to be a crossover in the above train of thought, or something I'm missing. 

Jinn, according to the Qur'an, are angels- just as is Shaytan [Iblis]. The jinn were created from a mixture of fire:

وَخَلَقَ الْجَانَّ مِنْ مَارِجٍ مِنْ نَارٍ

And He created the jinn from a mixture of fire 55:15

Mixture, in the above, is actually a participle, MaaRiJun; fire, which is a form of light, is not the pure photons, but a mixture of photons and the chemical exchange of matter. I quoted the Qur'an earlier to explain that the Jinn were called jinn because they had fallen and were thenceforth debarred from entering the heavens and that the Qur'an confirmed earlier Rabbinic and Christian concepts in regard angels, demons, and the fall of Shaytan. This is not found in the Hebrew Text; there is no mention of fallen angels or a disobedient Satan.

 

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On 4/22/2017 at 8:32 AM, Yaaqov Ben Yisrael said:

The most important point to understand in this section is that of the term nefilim [נפלים] which is the plural passive participle of nofel [נופל] from the verb nafal [נפל] which meant to fall- the passive meant fallen and the plural indicated those who had fallen. The first mention of this is in the narrative concerning Qayin bin Adam- who murdered his brother Avel.

וַיֹּ֥אמֶר יְהוָ֖ה אֶל־קָ֑יִן לָ֚מָּה חָ֣רָה לָ֔ךְ וְלָ֖מָּה נָפְל֥וּ פָנֶֽיךָ׃ 

WayYomer YHWH el-Qayin, lammah charah lakh wa lammah noflu paneykha- And YHWH said to Qayin, why are you angry and why has your countenance fallen?

The verb noflu [נפלו] is plural only because the Hebrew word for face/countenance/presence is plural- although it has a singular meaning.

The sons of Qayin followed in their father's example of murder- which is understood in the narrative of Lamech. All of Qayin's descendants were the manufacturers of instruments of pleasure and violence- they were also the first to begin to amass and hoard wealth and property. 

Not one place in the story of the flood were angels mentioned nor were they subject to divine wrath or punishment- only humans and those affected by their violence. In the narrative, it is clear that it was humans in question- the sons of Elohim were the sons of Adam, the sons of Adam were the sons of Qayin- it was the mixing of the godly lineage with the ungodly which was responsible for the spread of violence and corruption in the earth. 

 הַנְּפִלִ֞ים הָי֣וּ בָאָרֶץ֮ בַּיָּמִ֣ים הָהֵם֒ וְגַ֣ם אַֽחֲרֵי־כֵ֗ן אֲשֶׁ֨ר יָבֹ֜אוּ בְּנֵ֤י הָֽאֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־בְּנֹ֣ות הָֽאָדָ֔ם וְיָלְד֖וּ לָהֶ֑ם הֵ֧מָּה הַגִּבֹּרִ֛ים אֲשֶׁ֥ר מֵעֹולָ֖ם אַנְשֵׁ֥י הַשֵּֽׁם׃ 

HanNefilim hayyu baArets bayYom haheim wa gam acharei-khein asher yavo benei haElohim el-banoth haAdam wayyallidu lahem heimmah hagGevarim asher meiOlam anashei HashShem

The fallen were in the earth in those days, and after that the sons of God went to the daughters of men and bore children to them; these were the men of war which were men of renoun from ancient times.

Yaaqov ben Yisrael

 

The Biblical narrative of the fall of humanity, original sin, the first murder, etc. present some questions which have puzzled Bible readers for centuries. Some of the most often questions I receive is "Where did Cain get his wife?" and "Who were the Nefilim?"

To answer this question, it requires an understanding of Hebrew grammar and syntax-, especially of narrative structure. The first thing to understand is that the Bible is not always written in a chronological sequence; this means that when a narrative is read, it must not demand that what came first in the narrative was always the first in the narrative sequence.

An easy explanation of this can be drawn from the first two verses of the Bible, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was formless and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.” When one reads this in English, or many other translations, one might think the first two verses are in the same narrative sequence; this, however, is incorrect.

In Hebrew, the conjunction and [Waw וְ ] has several functions; the conjunction can be a temporal modifier signaling a transition from an imperfect to perfect- this is with verbs. The conjunctions can signal a continuation of a narrative sequence- the most common use of the conjunction. The conjunction can also be used as a disjunctive- a break or pause in a narrative sequence. In this case, the conjunction signifies a parenthetical narrative in the narrative sequence or a break in the prior narrative sequence and the beginning of a new narrative.

As a disjunctive, the Hebrew Waw [and] is prefixed to a non-verb in the beginning of its clause; this is what occurred in the second verse above- "And the Earth was..." This construction indicated a disjunction from the preceding verse. The creation narrative, then, actually began with the second verse and not with the first verse. This use of the disjunctive Waw [and] is employed in the narratives which followed the creation narrative: Genesis 3:1 "And the serpent was...;" Genesis 4:1 "And the man knew...;" Genesis 4:4 "And Abel brought..." In each of these cases, the use of the disjunctive Waw [and] indicated a break from the previous narrative sequence.

Genesis 3:1 indicated the break in the creation narrative sequence; it began a new narrative sequence from the point of view of the initial sin of Eve. It was not a chronological sequence but could have been up to 130 years after the events of the creation of man. Later, in Genesis, it is explained that Adam was 130 years old when Seth was born- after their expulsion from the Garden of Eden. In the midst of this narrative, Genesis 4:1 presented a new, parenthetical narrative sequence. This, too, is irrespective of time- when this took place was never clearly mentioned. The use of the disjunctive Waw here indicated that before the temptation of Eve, the children were born; this is the natural understanding of the Hebrew Text when the first commandment God ever gave Adam and Eve was to be "fruitful and multiply." That they could have spent as much as 130 years in the Garden of Eden without procreation meant that they spent up to 130 years disobeying God's first commandment. This use of the disjunctive clearly demonstrated that the children- who were twins- were born in the Garden and were not expelled with Adam and Eve.

The expulsion of Adam and Eve was not a simple command to leave the Garden but was a rather forceful and possibly a violent act. Neither of the two wished to leave the Garden of God. This is indicated by the use of the two verbs sent [שָׁלַח- shalah] and drove [גָרַשׁ- garash] in 3:23 and 24. The verb sent indicated that they were requested to leave and that they were, possibly, accompanied to the border of the Garden. The verb drove indicated that this was not a consensual leaving on the part of Adam and Eve, but they were compelled to go; this is made even more clear by the fact that the way back was guarded by cherubs wielding flaming swords.

The narrative of the birth of Cain and Abel is an interruption in the sequence of the expulsion of Adam and Eve; it explained an event which occurred prior to Adam and Eve being expelled- the birth of the twins. This narrative is immediately interrupted by the last of the disjunctive Waw clauses- Genesis 4:4 "And Abel brought..."

The new narrative began from the point of view of Cain and Abel who were adults and still living in the Garden after the expulsion of their parents. The disjunctive interrupted the narrative from the clause, "And in process of time it came to pass." The phrase "process of time" is miqets yamim in Hebrew and meant the end of an age. Sometimes, it was translated as "end of days." To what end of the age is being referenced is clear- the end of the age of innocence. At the conclusion of this narrative sequence, there would be none left who had not sinned against God.

To know, for sure, that Cain was born in a natural state of perfection, it is simple to point out that the Erbsünde [inherited sin] could not have applied to Cain. This is made clear by the statement of God, "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it" (Genesis 4:7). The final clause is written in the imperfect in the Hebrew weAttah timshol-bo [yet you, you rule over it]. This is not permissive nor an offer of advice, but a statement of fact; at this point, Cain ruled over sin- it had no power over him just like it had no power over his parents. After this, God said this to no other person.

A comparison of the two narratives- that of the expulsion of Adam and Eve and the expulsion of Cain- will explain to where they were all expelled. Adam and Eve were expelled, rather forcefully, to the East of the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3;24). It was outside the Garden of Eden which came to be known as the Land of Nod [nod meaning wandering]. As opposed to his parents, Cain willingly left from the presence of God- which was in the Garden (Genesis 3:8). This is demonstrated by the lack of the two verbs sent and drove; rather it stated that Cain "went out." The direction of travel, as in the case of his parents, was to the East- to the Land of Wandering (Genesis 4:16).

Cain left from Eden and went to the same land where his parents had been sent; this raises the question, "How long were Adam and Eve in the Land of Nod?" We already know that Adam was 130 years at the birth of Seth; before he was born, Adam had already given birth to many other children- including women. It is from the women born to Adam that Cain took his wife; this marriage and mixture led to the events of Genesis 6 and the deluge. It was Cain's lineage who invented weapons of war (Genesis 4:22), instruments of pleasure (Genesis 4:21), and were the first to take possessions (Genesis 4:20); his children followed his example as explained from the confession of Lamech- who had also killed many people. Adam's line- through Seth- were sorry for their sins and tried to amend their ways and walk with God; Cain's line, however, was unrepentant and spread violence and corruption over the face of the Earth. The Godly line was called the sons of God while the sinful line was called the sons of Adam [men].

The events of Genesis 4 and 5 led to the events of chapter 6. There have been volumes of wasted ink on this subject- most of which ignore the contextual backdrop to the chapter and invent fairy-tales of some sort of inbreeding between humans and angels.

Most of the speculation surrounds verses 1-4 with a strong emphasis on verse 4 in particular.

Gen 6:1 Now when humankind [haAdam- the man] began to multiply on the face of the ground and daughters were born to them,

Gen 6:2 and the sons of God [benei haElohim] saw that the daughters of men were good and they took for themselves wives, any they chose.

Gen 6:3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not quarrel* with humankind [baAdam- with the man] forever, since they are flesh. So their days will be 120 years.”

Gen 6:4 The nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward when the sons of God came to the daughters of men and gave birth to them. Those were the mighty men of old, men of renown.

Adam is the name that God called humanity- both female and male- in the day He created them.

Gen 5:1 This is the Book of the Genealogies of Adam: When God created Adam, in the likeness of God He made him.

Gen 5:2 Male and female He created them, and He blessed them and called their name “Adam” when He created them.

The humans which followed God and sought to amend their ways were then, and thereafter, referred to as sons of God [benei haElohim]:

Ye are the children of the LORD your God Deuteronomy 14:1

it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1:10

The idea behind the phrase benei haElohim [sons of God] is not one of absolute sinlessness, nor of being always on the side of right; the idea is and always has been one of contriteness and a readiness to do what is right in the face of bad decisions. After the birth of Seth, in the days of his son Enosh [mortal man], the line of Adam began to call upon the name of the Lord (Genesis 4:26). In Genesis 5:22, it stated that Enoch [Hanokh- dedicated] walked with God. The verb used for "walk" is hithalek in Hebrew; this is both a reciprocal verb stem as well as a reflexive and meant that one did this for or to themselves as well as in conjunction with another. The idea is that Enoch sought to amend his ways, by walking in the path of God, and God blessed him for it.

It is the same idea behind King David being called a "man after God's heart" even though he committed murder and adultery; after the crimes were committed, David was genuinely sorry and sought to reform his ways and make restitution for his bad decisions. Repentance [teshuvah] is the key:

“Now when all these things come upon you—the blessing and the curse that I have set before you—and you take them to heart in all the nations where the Lord your God has banished you, and you return [weshavta] to the Lord your God and listen to His voice according to all that I am commanding you today—you and your children—with all your heart and with all your soul, then the Lord your God will bring you back from captivity and have compassion on you, and He will return and gather you from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you. Even if your outcasts are at the ends of the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you.

Deuteronomy 30:1-4 [see also Deuteronomy 4:24-31]

“Do I delight at all in the death of the wicked?” It is a declaration of Adonai. “Rather, should he not return [beshuvo] from his ways, and live? Ezekiel 18:23

In contrast to the godly line of Adam, the line of Cain was not sorry and sought no reform; on the other hand, they continued in their murderous ways and developed the art of pleasure and war. This line was called the nephilim. Nefillim is a plural passive participle from the verb NaFaL- to fall; the passive participle is used, more often than not, as an adjective in Hebrew. The nephilim are those people who were in a fallen state. The choice of word used in this narrative echoed back to the fall of Cain himself:

Cain became very angry, and his countenance fell [nafal]. Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen [nafal]? Genesis 4:5-6

The idea behind the verb NaFaL- when applied to humans- can have several meanings; the most common meaning, when applied to humans, is that of death, or one fallen in battle. The nephilim in Genesis 6:4, however, were alive and not dead; the meaning in this case, then, is that of a person from one camp defecting to the people of another camp- they changed sides. Consider the following verse:

Then the remnant of the people who were left in the city—the deserters [haNofelim] who had defected [noflu] to the Babylonian king and the rest of the populace—Nebuzaradan captain of the guard exiled them. 2 Kings 25:11

The nephilim in Genesis 6:4, then, were those who were formerly godly but fell to the wicked ways of the sons of Cain. This is easily proven when considering the verse:

The nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, whenever the sons of God came to the daughters of men, and gave birth to them. Those were the mighty men of old, men of renown.

The last clause of this verse, in Hebrew, is actually a bit different that what is commonly translated:

הֵמָּה הַגִּבֹּרִים אֲשֶׁר מֵעוֹלָם אַנְשֵׁי הַשֵּׁם

These were the gibborim which were from ancient times men of God.

Gibborim, in Hebrew, represented men of war, or men of great valor; David's warriors were called gibborim- so too was Nimrod called a gibbor. The line of Cain was responsible for spreading violence in the Earth and the mixture of the godly line of Adam ensured that their wicked ways would dominate the world. These wicked men spread violence and war; in the end, God saw the world destroyed from these people:

God saw the earth, and behold it was destroyed because all flesh had destroyed their way upon the earth. Genesis 6:12

Only Noah was a righteous man and always sought to walk with God; for this reason, God spared the life of Noah and his family.

Noah was a righteous man. He was blameless among his generation. Noah continually walked with God. Genesis 6:9

For you only do I perceive as righteous before Me in this generation. Genesis 7:1

This narrative dealt with the consequences of the fall of humanity, the faith and righteous acts of the men of God, and their deliverance and reward for their faithfulness to God's law. It never had anything to do with fallen angels fathering hybrid children with humans and creating a race of giants or supermen. In fact, angels are not mentioned in this narrative nor were they the objects of divine wrath.

Edited by Yaaqov Ben Yisrael

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3 hours ago, Yaaqov Ben Yisrael said:

The Biblical narrative of the fall of humanity, original sin, the first murder, etc. present some questions which have puzzled Bible readers for centuries. Some of the most often questions I receive is "Where did Cain get his wife?" and "Who were the Nefilim?"

Man, you write a lot.

I don't know anything Hebrew, but I've come to understand a lot of what you've written without it. 

Atheists would tell you a day is 24 hours, creationists would say a day is 1000 years.

This is based on Peter's letter where he says a day unto the Lord is like 1000 years, and 1000 years is like a day. "Like a day" does not equal 365,250 days, 4,383,000 hours. What Peter was saying is a day, (limited time frame that we understand), is longer than anyone has ever historically lived, and 12X +/- longer than the average person at that time, which is beyond understanding, so why take it literal?  

I'm not one for believing jelly fish crawled up on shore, but the age of the earth can't be counted in days no matter how you look at it.

There's only enough info on Nefilim in the Torah to create questions. Then it depends on what your religious leaders teach. The book of Enoch gives a whole nuther description. Not sure how it survived the flood but it's quasi acceptable to Christians who don't know whether to read it or not, but they were all giants, that much they know. I expect that if these fallen angels were capable of mating with humans before the flood, there's not a lot stopping them from doing so after the flood. Especially through ages where certain people would seek it. Evil can work it's way in many forms, and does, but creating a race of superhumans doesn't seem to one of them. 

 

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5 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Man, you write a lot.

I don't know anything Hebrew, but I've come to understand a lot of what you've written without it. 

Atheists would tell you a day is 24 hours, creationists would say a day is 1000 years.

This is based on Peter's letter where he says a day unto the Lord is like 1000 years, and 1000 years is like a day. "Like a day" does not equal 365,250 days, 4,383,000 hours. What Peter was saying is a day, (limited time frame that we understand), is longer than anyone has ever historically lived, and 12X +/- longer than the average person at that time, which is beyond understanding, so why take it literal?  

I'm not one for believing jelly fish crawled up on shore, but the age of the earth can't be counted in days no matter how you look at it.

There's only enough info on Nefilim in the Torah to create questions. Then it depends on what your religious leaders teach. The book of Enoch gives a whole nuther description. Not sure how it survived the flood but it's quasi acceptable to Christians who don't know whether to read it or not, but they were all giants, that much they know. I expect that if these fallen angels were capable of mating with humans before the flood, there's not a lot stopping them from doing so after the flood. Especially through ages where certain people would seek it. Evil can work it's way in many forms, and does, but creating a race of superhumans doesn't seem to one of them. 

 

According to common myths, the nephilim were fallen angels, who cohabited with human women to produce giants. This story is told by many ancient historians, such as Philo. Where do they get their idea from?

The story of the giants can be found in Genesis chapter 6, which chronicles the proliferation of man upon the face of the globe. The "sons of God" see how beautiful their daughters are and take some for wives. This union is said to have produced giants.

The word giant does not appear in the Hebrew Text of Genesis 6. This is found rather in a translation, the LXX. Here is how this reads:

Καὶ ἐγένετο ἡνίκα ἤρξαντο οἱ ἄνθρωποι πολλοὶ γίνεσθαι ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, καὶ θυγατέρες ἐγενήθησαν αὐτοῖς.

And the time came when humanity began to be many upon the earth, and daughters were born to them

ἰδόντες δὲ οἱ υἱοὶ τοῦ θεοῦ τὰς θυγατέρας τῶν ἀνθρώπων ὅτι καλαί εἰσιν, ἔλαβον ἑαυτοῖς γυναῖκας ἀπὸ πασῶν, ὧν ἐξελέξαντο .

Then the sons of God seeing the daughters of humanity that they were beautiful, took for themselves wives from all which they desired

οἱ δὲ γίγαντες ἦσαν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις ἐκείναις καὶ μετ᾿ ἐκεῖνο, ὡς ἂν εἰσεπορεύοντο οἱ υἱοὶ τοῦ θεοῦ πρὸς τὰς θυγατέρας τῶν ἀνθρώπων καὶ ἐγεννῶσαν ἑαυτοῖς· ἐκεῖνοι ἦσαν οἱ γίγαντες οἱ ἀπ᾿ αἰῶνος, οἱ ἄνθρωποι οἱ ὀνομαστοί.

The giants (gigantes) were upon the earth (ge) in those days, and after that, when the sons of God were coming into the daughters of humanity and bore for them, they were the giants (gigantes) the men of renown.

As you can see in the above, the word giant is actually gigantes in the Greek. Gigantes means "earth born". To understand this we must understand a little Greek mythology.

According to Hippolytus (Refutation of All Heresies), there is a Greek lyric which says: "Ge (Earth), say the Greeks, was the first to produce man . . . But it is hard to discover [who] . . . was the first of men to appear . . . [whether it was Earth of the land of] Pellene to [which was born] Phlegraian Alkyoneus, eldest of the Gigantes."

Diodorus Siculus, a Greek historian, writes in the 1st century BCE: "The myths record that the Gigantes were sons of Ge (Earth) because of the exceedingly great size of their bodies." And again: "The Gigantes were punished by Zeus because they had treated the rest of mankind in a lawless fashion and, confiding in their bodily superiority and strength, had enslaved their neighbours, and because they were also disobeying the rules of justice which he was laying down and were raising up war against those whom all mankind considered to be gods because of the benefactions they were conferring upon men generally."

Looking at the above we can see the Greeks considered the gigantes to be born of the earth (Ge), which is the etymology of their name gigantes meaning "earth born". They were of great size and strength and also were very corrupt, enslaving the rest of humanity. But they were human.

 

The givorim are warriors, which is how it is used in many other places in Tanakh. This shows the warlike nature of the offspring resulting from the union of the two lineages. They were no longer those who "walked with YHWH", rather the world became filled with violence because of them.

There is no hint in these chapters that there were any heavenly angels who fell from heaven and intermarried with humanity. One proof is that the judgment of YHWH fell only upon humanity, as they were wiped out, save for Noah and his family. The heavenly host was never shown to be punished at all in the story of the flood, nor anywhere else in Tanakh.

The gigantes of the LXX are merely violent tyrants. They were born from the earth, and were an ungodly race of people. According to Genesis, humanity (adam) was also formed from the earth (adamah). In both stories (Greek myth, and Genesis), we have earth born people, who were violent and wicked people, who were ultimately punished by God. This is how the translators would have possibly seen the nefilim, and why they would have translated nefilim as gigantes.

 

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alhamdulillah,

i was also hoping to have an Islamic perspective as well.

imo, a demon and a jinn is the same thing???

is it possible to look at the creation & identify everything that was created, animals, man, angels, jinn/demons.

could we be able to recognize them (all), by our senses or not?

also, it was difficult to conceive 'giants' conceiving children with 'daughters of man'.

is anyone aware of any demonic activities?

ws

 

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4 hours ago, Mzwakhe said:

alhamdulillah,

i was also hoping to have an Islamic perspective as well.

imo, a demon and a jinn is the same thing???

is it possible to look at the creation & identify everything that was created, animals, man, angels, jinn/demons.

could we be able to recognize them (all), by our senses or not?

also, it was difficult to conceive 'giants' conceiving children with 'daughters of man'.

is anyone aware of any demonic activities?

ws

 

As a Christian, I was taught there are no jinn, only good and evil spirits. My experience tells me there are "jinn" and there are demons and they are not at all the same thing although jinn seem to be demon groupies.

I'm amazed at how much is taught about victory over evil yet most Christians have no idea and don't want one. The way they are taught it would seem angels are a thing of the past and evil is "out there", but nobody encounters anything, only sees it in the secular world.

Islam is pretty much the same with the addition of jinn, a parallel world pretty much left alone.

Fact is, the demonic realm spends much more time on the pious and agnostics than the secular. The secular are already like fish in a net. 

A rancid odour that does not belong in your surroundings is something your senses can pick up. Then what?

 @Yaaqov Ben Yisrael explains from a deeper understanding than mine that the actual meaning of the "sons of God" in Genesis were not giants, but men of public stature from the Abrahamic genealogy that married pagan women and went wild. <<< slightly paraphrased.  His explanation is above your post.

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