Jump to content
alidu78

Comparison Between Pilgrim To Kerbala And Mecca

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

We should love and appreciate people who submitted to God fully through their lives, who in turn, God uses to guide us. This would be appreciating God's Favour through his chosen ones. We should love them for a reason closely linked to love and reverence of God. If we dislike having such people as our leaders, we in reality dislike having those who are the light of Mohammad as our leader, which is hate towards Mohammad which is hate towards God.

 

God tries his creation with love of his chosen ones, to see how sincere they are to his light. We cannot go pass the light of God and see God in actuality, rather our hearts perceive a reality connected to him, no matter how close he is in that vision and appearance. 

 

If we show hatred towards the light of his chosen ones, we are showing hatred towards God's Name and face, which is hate towards God. 

 

I remember that there is a verse where a supposed grammar mistake happens with singular instead of plural used in respect to Messengers. Scholars say this was actually purposely done by God to show rejecting one Messenger would be rejecting all Messengers. The same is true of Imams. If you rejected an Imam appointed by God it's as if you rejected all Imams appointed by God including Mohammad.

 

That is the nature of submission as a religion. It requires us to submit to each and every holder of the authority of God.  Who rejects one, it's as if he rejected them all.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I found that on a shia website :

Q:How sound is the myth that visiting grave of Ali a.s equals 70 hajj while Visiting the grave of the Prophet (pbuh), who is the best of all, is not  equivalent to one Hajj?

A: Visiting the shrines of the infallibles is a sign of utmost respect. We respect and admire them as they were the closest human beings to God. Having said that nothing is higher than the House of God. The infallibles are a means towards God, not the end."
 
"Imam Sadiq (a.s.) has said, ‘Everything must be referred to the holy Quran and the Sunnah, the noble traditions of the holy Prophet (s.a.) and any Hadith that does not agree with the holy Quran it is a useless statement. (H 199, Ch. 22, h 3 ,Al-Kafi)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

as salamu alaykum,

 

makkah is honored because rasul Allah and imam ali as made their zahur their ie appeared from the right sides of their mothers, and 70 anabiya are buried near kaba. one of my teachers has the aqid that when imam as comes the qilba would which to karbalah, ashiura or day of zuhur would be new eid, and that say would be between abu fadl and hussayn, tawaf at zari, etc. no more majalis and matamn as all 14 would walk the earth again, based on among other things this ayah It was a hard test but not for those to whom God has given guidance,  as we know turing to makkah was what most wanted, but facing karbalah and certain changes will be a hard test for us.

 

these thinbgs need to be addressed because the whabbis already tell every one about them anyway.

[Mod Note: These are not mainstream Shia beliefs.]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You fail to understand the role of Imams. Imams are there to teach you how to submit to Allah the best way possible.

To be honest, if the imaams were portrayed as humans. I would consider the Shia muslims like Sunni's. But thats not the case, the Imaams are being glorified more than Allah swt. I see videos of Shias crawling to the grave of a human to show their faith. No videos of Shia crawling to the House of Allah swt. Just looking at this topic makes me furious, how could someone who calls himself muslim suggest that visiting a grave of a mortal is more rewarding than visiting the House of the Eternal?

Do you understand why Sunni's have a hard time accepting Shia's view..?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be honest, if the imaams were portrayed as humans. I would consider the Shia muslims like Sunni's. But thats not the case, the Imaams are being glorified more than Allah swt. I see videos of Shias crawling to the grave of a human to show their faith. No videos of Shia crawling to the House of Allah swt. Just looking at this topic makes me furious, how could someone who calls himself muslim suggest that visiting a grave of a mortal is more rewarding than visiting the House of the Eternal?

Do you understand why Sunni's have a hard time accepting Shia's view..?

Dutch - what do you think happens at these shrines? People go there to pray to Allah using the tawassul of the Ahlul-Bayt.

 

The Prophet (saw) said that he is leaving behind 2 weighty things namely the Quran and the Ahlul-Bayt (Ali and his offspring, Aqeel and his offspring, etc.). Leaving behind means He has left them until the end of times. So going to these shrines ensures the continuity of the Prophet(saw) inheritance for the Ummah. 

Edited by AhlulBayt_313

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dutch - what do you think happens at these shrines? People go there to pray to Allah using the tawassul of the Ahlul-Bayt.

The Prophet (saw) said that he is leaving behind 2 weighty things namely the Quran and the Ahlul-Bayt (Ali and his offspring, Aqeel and his offspring, etc.). Leaving behind means He has left them until the end of times. So going to these shrines ensures the continuity of the Prophet(saw) inheritance for the Ummah.

Praying to Hussein, asking for help in life. Call it tawassul, i call it borderline shirk. Leaving behind means leaving behind. If Allah swt wanted muslims to believe in the Imaams, He would have mentioned it in the Quran numerous times. But He does not mention their names, not even the name of Ali ra.The whole idea of Imaams is not even in the Quran. The only place where this is mentioned is in Shia hadiths written 500 years after the death of Muhammed saw. Muhammed saw himself inherited the Ummah. Thats why Sunni's say: There is no God but Allah and Muhammed is his Messenger.

Edited by AhlulBayt_313

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are some actions in sunni and shia islam which is équivalent to hajj according to sunni and shia hadith. About this shrines there are not supérior to kaaba but during thé times of our imams that was very dangerous to do zirayat because khalifs killed thé pilgrims so its for that thé graves are so graceful. That is approximately What I understood

And they explained to me that its the mustahab pilgrim to mecca which is less important to kerbala not thé obligatory pilgrim to mecca which is supérior

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tawassul (Intercession) - By all means Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is the ultimate Helper. Shias dont ask the Imams to help them directly. Shias ask for the Intercession of the Prophet (saw) and his Progeny and the best example I can give you of Intercession is directly from Sahih Bukhari:

Volume 2, Book 17, Number 123 :

Narrated by Anas

Whenever drought threatened them, 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, used to ask Al-Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib to invoke Allah for rain. He used to say, "O Allah! We used to ask our Prophet to invoke You for rain, and You would bless us with rain, and now we ask his uncle to invoke You for rain. O Allah ! Bless us with rain."(1) And so it would rain.

Caliph Umar used to call upon the cousin of the Prophet(saw) to pray for rain and and if tawassul (intercession) is good enough for him, surely its good enough for the Shia.

Do you actually think i am referring to this? Because i am referring to the fact that Shia build on the grave, that Shia do salat facing the grave, all that kissing and touching doors. Walking backwards or crawling to the grave.

“May Allah’s curse be on the Jews for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets.” (Sahih Bukhari)

[Quran 4:59] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

Who is ulil-amr? Muawiya,? Yazid? Al-Saud?

You say, "There is no God but Allah and Muhammed is his Messenger." when the ayat above explicitly tells you to obey Allah, the Prophet (saw) AND ulil-amr. So the shia kalima of, "There is no God but Allah and Muhammed is his Messenger and Ali is his successor" is more apropos.

Those in authority could mean thousands of things, like parents, leaders, teachers. This is not even close to evidence. I want to say names and clearcut language about imams in the Quran.

Moreover, how is it ok for Sunnis to follow Hanafi, Maliki, Shafai, Hanbali, Ibn Taymiyah, Abdul-Wahab but shias can't follow their imams? Are any of the people I mentioned listed in the Quran?

None are mentioned, nor is anyone claiming they are mentioned. They are intelligent scholars who studied Islam. Nothing more.

[Quran 5:55] Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

The bold text above, who is that?

[Note from Moderator: No personal remarks please]

Let me guess Ali ra? You think only Ali ra paid Zakaat or performed salat? Do you realize that this is mere an example of faith as there are hundreds of other examples.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you actually think i am referring to this? Because i am referring to the fact that Shia build on the grave, that Shia do salat facing the grave, all that kissing and touching doors. Walking backwards or crawling to the grave.

 

Salat is always done in the direction of qibla whether you are at a shrine or elsewhere. So what is wrong with kissing, touching doors, walking/crawling? These things are not shirk because no one is claiming them to be Allah. 

 

 

“May Allah’s curse be on the Jews for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets.” (Sahih Bukhari)

How many Prophets are buried right next to the Kaaba? and isn't it a great honor to pray there?

 

 

Those in authority could mean thousands of things, like parents, leaders, teachers. This is not even close to evidence. I want to say names and clearcut language about imams in the Quran.

None are mentioned, nor is anyone claiming they are mentioned. They are intelligent scholars who studied Islam. Nothing more.

Quran talks about the Imams in the section preceding Khalifah-e-Rashideen. Or better yet, find the chapter on 17 rakats per day, it should be around there somewhere. To you "those in authority" could mean thousands of things and I say one of those thousands is the Imams. You cant prove I am wrong based on your own logic.

So it is ok to follow the sunni imams because they are intelligent scholars but not follow Imam Ali (as) who is the gateway to the city of knowledge?

 

 

Let me guess Ali ra? You think only Ali ra paid Zakaat or performed salat? Do you realize that this is mere an example of faith as there are hundreds of other examples.

You can read pretty much any tafseer and it will tell you this ayat came in honor of Imam Ali (as) when he gave zakat (a ring) while he was in ruku.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salat is always done in the direction of qibla whether you are at a shrine or elsewhere. So what is wrong with kissing, touching doors, walking/crawling? These things are not shirk because no one is claiming them to be Allah.

I know that facing the grave is Shia practice. No need for the taqiyya my friend. I know that its haraam to turn your back to the grave to pray to the Qiblah and i know it is halaal to turn your back to the Qibla if facing the grave. Its in your holy scripture.

How many Prophets are buried right next to the Kaaba? and isn't it a great honor to pray there?

Praying at graves is haraam. You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with Muhammed saw.

Quran talks about the Imams in the section preceding Khalifah-e-Rashideen. Or better yet, find the chapter on 17 rakats per day, it should be around there somewhere. To you "those in authority" could mean thousands of things and I say one of those thousands is the Imams. You cant prove I am wrong based on your own logic.

The burden of proof is on you not me. Why can't you simple quote an aya from the Quran which says that Ali ra and his children are Divine Imams? Is it because its not there?

So it is ok to follow the sunni imams because they are intelligent scholars but not follow Imam Ali (as) who is the gateway to the city of knowledge?

Those Sunni imams based alot on what Ali ra taught my friend.

You can read pretty much any tafseer and it will tell you this ayat came in honor of Imam Ali (as) when he gave zakat (a ring) while he was in ruku.

No doubt. Now what?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Those in authority could mean thousands of things, like parents, leaders, teachers. This is not even close to evidence. I want to say names and clearcut language about imams in the Quran.

 

'Those in authority' are in full harmony with the guidance and leadership of Allah. How can it mean a thousands of things?

Edited by Skanderbeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The burden of proof is on you not me. Why can't you simple quote an aya from the Quran which says that Ali ra and his children are Divine Imams? Is it because its not there?

 

The proof is in the aya itself. As leadership-obedience is an up-down/top-bottom process it can only mean an appointee or appointees of Allah and who else is known as appointed by Allah in Shia AND Sunni narrations than Imam Ali a.s.?

Edited by Skanderbeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The proof is in the aya itself. As leadership-obedience is an up-down/top-bottom process it can only mean an appointee or appointees of Allah and who else is known as appointed by Allah in Shia AND Sunni narrations than Imam Ali a.s.?

 

Lets say for the sake of argument, it is indeed referred to 12(14?) divine imams athough i am hundred procent sure its not. Why are muslims allowed to differ with them if the imaam is divinely guided by Allah swt? Muslims are allowed to argue to reach common ground with a divine Imam...? 

 

those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم), if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day.

 

 

 

Shia doctrine:

 

That is Allah Must assign someone similar to prophet in his attributes and Ismah as his successor to guide the people without any deviation in religion.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[Note from Mod: This topic has been temporarily closed for review by a moderator pending one of the following actions:

1) Cleanup: Topic will be reviewed, inappropriate posts will be deleted followed by warnings/bans being implemented and then reopened.

2) Topic will be permanently deleted or sent to the lounge.

3) Topic will remain permanently closed.

Please allow up to 48 hours for one of the above actions to take place. Contact the appropriate moderator for any further explanations

The ShiaChat.com rules can be found at: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=12120][Auto]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

السلام عليكم

 

​This thread has been cleaned accordingly and refined on the basis of SC rules and policy. A few issues we've noticed:

  1. Off-topic and irrelevant replies. 
  2. Derailing and hijacking of the thread.
  3. Personal attacks/remarks.

 

Upon reopening this thread, please refrain from the above. Otherwise a warning or suspension will be issued. 

 

 

Wa `al-salam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lets say for the sake of argument, it is indeed referred to 12(14?) divine imams athough i am hundred procent sure its not. Why are muslims allowed to differ with them if the imaam is divinely guided by Allah swt? Muslims are allowed to argue to reach common ground with a divine Imam...? 

 

 

 

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

It's not about differing or allowance to argue but about obedience.

Edited by Skanderbeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

It's not about differing or allowance to argue but about obedience.

Atleast stick to the perfect Imaam claims. Disobeying Allah or Rasullallah saw is not allowed and completely out of the question, disagreeing with a divine imam is considered a possibility by Allah swt and not punishable. In fact, the divine Imaam might aswell be wrong so u have to refer it to Sunnah and Quran.

Shouldnt a Shia imam be in contact with God at all times? Or is this verse simply talking about parents?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know that facing the grave is Shia practice. No need for the taqiyya my friend. I know that its haraam to turn your back to the grave to pray to the Qiblah and i know it is halaal to turn your back to the Qibla if facing the grave. Its in your holy scripture.

 

haha. It was about time 'taqiyya' was brought up. Most losing arguments end with "I dont believe you because you are doing taqiyya".

Fact 1: turning back to grave is makruh

Fact 2: turning your back to qibla when not praying is ok in all madhabs of islam.

Fact 3: salat is only offered facing qibla and if it means your back is towards the grave, then you move from that spot.

Holy Scripture??? The Quran? That's our only Holy Scripture.

 

 

Praying at graves is haraam. You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with Muhammed saw.

Research where Prophet Ismael and his mother are buried

 

 

The burden of proof is on you not me. Why can't you simple quote an aya from the Quran which says that Ali ra and his children are Divine Imams? Is it because its not there?

The names of the Imams are not there but neither is the name of any imam you follow. The burden of proof is totally on you because you are saying following the 12 imams is wrong; however clearly you follow imams of your choosing.

 

Those Sunni imams based alot on what Ali ra taught my friend.

Did any of those 4 imams study directly under Imam Ali? No, they studied directly or indirectly under Imam Jafar Al-Sadiq (as) and he did not have a teacher other than his father all the way up to Imam Ali so at the very least you should follow the first 6 imams of the Shia...based on your logic of course.

 

 

No doubt. Now what?

Nothing - Quran tells us that Allah, the Prophet saw and Imam Ali are our Wali ([Quran 5:55] Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.) so Shias say La Ilaha Illallah, Mohammad rasoolallal, Ali waliallah exactly as the ayah instructs.

You say only Allah is your Wali so you should tell us why one should only believe in 1/3 of this ayah?

 

Lets say for the sake of argument, it is indeed referred to 12(14?) divine imams athough i am hundred procent sure its not. Why are muslims allowed to differ with them if the imaam is divinely guided by Allah swt? Muslims are allowed to argue to reach common ground with a divine Imam...? 

You are not allowed to differ with the imams but if you have a disagreement about who is the Imam (Saqifah) then differ to Allah and His Prophet saw.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Praying to Hussein, asking for help in life. Call it tawassul, i call it borderline shirk.

We pray to Allah but use the Prophet saw, and imams as tawassul (wasilah)

 

[Quran 5:35] O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and seek means of nearness (wasilah) to Him and strive hard in His way that you may be successful.

 

So as it turns out what you call shirk, we call obeying the message of Allah.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Narrated Ya'la bin Murrah:

that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "Husain is from me, and I am from Husain. Allah loves whoever loves Husain. Husain is a Sibt among the Asbat." [Asbat, plural of Sibt: A great tribe. Meaning, Al-Husain would have many offspring, such that they would become a great tribe. And this has indeed occurred. See Tuhfat Al-Ahwadhi (4/341).]

Jami` at-Tirmidhi » Chapters on Virtues

Vol. 1, Book 46, Hadith 3775

 

 

By sheer coincidence, Dr Syed Ammar Nakshwani gave a speech on visiting the grave of Imam Hussain (as). Why is it more meritorious than a non-wajib hajj...because it please the Prophet saw and if it pleases the Prophet saw then it pleases Allah:

 


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Research where Prophet Ismael and his mother are buried

 

 

Research what Haraam means.

 

The names of the Imams are not there but neither is the name of any imam you follow. The burden of proof is totally on you because you are saying following the 12 imams is wrong; however clearly you follow imams of your choosing.

I follow Muhammed saw, his name is not in the Quran? Oh my...

 

Did any of those 4 imams study directly under Imam Ali? No, they studied directly or indirectly under Imam Jafar Al-Sadiq (as) and he did not have a teacher other than his father all the way up to Imam Ali so at the very least you should follow the first 6 imams of the Shia...based on your logic of course.

So if they studied under one of your holy imams directly, how come they are Sunnis?

 

Nothing - Quran tells us that Allah, the Prophet saw and Imam Ali are our Wali ([Quran 5:55] Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.) so Shias say La Ilaha Illallah, Mohammad rasoolallal, Ali waliallah exactly as the ayah instructs.

You say only Allah is your Wali so you should tell us why one should only believe in 1/3 of this ayah?

Do not tell lies. I believe in Allah swt and that Muhammed saw is his messenger.

Its great for Ali that Muhammed saw was his family but i care very little about that.

 

 

 

 

[Note from Moderator: No personal remarks].

Edited by Jaafar Al-Shibli
Personal remarks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Atleast stick to the perfect Imaam claims. Disobeying Allah or Rasullallah saw is not allowed and completely out of the question, disagreeing with a divine imam is considered a possibility by Allah swt and not punishable. In fact, the divine Imaam might aswell be wrong so u have to refer it to Sunnah and Quran.

Shouldnt a Shia imam be in contact with God at all times? Or is this verse simply talking about parents?

No stick to the verse and do not divert.

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

If you disagree over who those in authority are then refer it to Allah and the Messenger.

Who did Muhammad s.a.w. appoint as his successor and who became it by the 'majority of men' or better said the majority of Saqifah?

It can only mean people who are put in charge by Allah and the Messenger. Refer it to Allah and the Messenger and do not invent elections with your own procedures to elect those in authority.

It is a circle which strengthens itself. 

Last but not least your claim that it is about parents doesn't make sense at all because what about the orphans and the elderly people without parents?

 

Edited by Skanderbeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Research what Haraam means.

 

 

Dont blame me if Prophet Ismael and his mother Hz hajirah are buried in the hateem in hijr-e-Ismael. I didnt do it.

 

 

I follow Muhammed saw, his name is not in the Quran? Oh my...

 

Curious how you follow Muhammad saw? Are you in direct contact? If not, you follow someone who tells you how to follow Mohammad saw. Whether you accept it or not, Quran by itself is not enough.

 

 

So if they studied under one of your holy imams directly, how come they are Sunnis?

 

Thanks for making my point. The 4 sunni madhabs are off-shoots of fiqh-e-jafri.

 

 

Do not tell lies. I believe in Allah swt and that Muhammed saw is his messenger.

Its great for Ali that Muhammed saw was his family but i care very little about that.

 

Please provide example of how I am lying about quran 5:55.

 

You know what else is great about Imam Ali - he is loved by Allah

Zirr reported:
'Ali observed: By Him Who split up the seed and created something living, the Apostle (may peace and blessings be upon him) gave me a promise that no one but a believer would love me, and none but a hypocrite would nurse grudge against me.
Sahih Muslim » The Book of Faith
Book 1, Hadith 146
 
[Quran 5:54] O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion, then Allah will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him, lowly before the believers, mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way and shall not fear the censure of any censurer; this is Allah's Face, He gives it to whom He pleases, and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.
 
Narrated Salama bin Al-Akwa:
Ali remained behind the Prophet (ﷺ) during the battle of Khaibar as he way suffering from some eye trouble but then he said, "How should I stay behind Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)?" So, he set out till he joined the Prophet. On the eve of the day of the conquest of Khaibar, Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "(No doubt) I will give the flag or, tomorrow, a man whom Allah and His Apostle love or who loves Allah and His apostle will take the flag. Allah will bestow victory upon him." Suddenly 'Ali joined us though we were not expecting him. The people said, "Here is 'Ali. "So, Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) gave the flag to him and Allah bestowed victory upon him.
Sahih al-Bukhari » Book of Fighting for the Cause of Allah (Jihaad)
Book 56, Hadith 184
 

 

Never mind my reference to Quran 4.59 and 5:54-55. They start with "Oh you who believe" so its not applicable to you.

 

 

[Note from Moderator: Deleted quotes removed]

Edited by Jaafar Al-Shibli
Deleted quotes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You know what else is great about Imam Ali - he is loved by Allah

Zirr reported:

'Ali observed: By Him Who split up the seed and created something living, the Apostle (may peace and blessings be upon him) gave me a promise that no one but a believer would love me, and none but a hypocrite would nurse grudge against me.

Sahih Muslim » The Book of Faith

Book 1, Hadith 146

[Quran 5:54] O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion, then Allah will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him, lowly before the believers, mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way and shall not fear the censure of any censurer; this is Allah's Face, He gives it to whom He pleases, and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.

Narrated Salama bin Al-Akwa:

Ali remained behind the Prophet (ﷺ) during the battle of Khaibar as he way suffering from some eye trouble but then he said, "How should I stay behind Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)?" So, he set out till he joined the Prophet. On the eve of the day of the conquest of Khaibar, Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "(No doubt) I will give the flag or, tomorrow, a man whom Allah and His Apostle love or who loves Allah and His apostle will take the flag. Allah will bestow victory upon him." Suddenly 'Ali joined us though we were not expecting him. The people said, "Here is 'Ali. "So, Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) gave the flag to him and Allah bestowed victory upon him.

Sahih al-Bukhari » Book of Fighting for the Cause of Allah (Jihaad)

Book 56, Hadith 184

Anas (may Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (may Allah bestow peaceand blessings upon him) said,“Abu Bakr and Umar are mature masters of the first and the last with the exception of the Prophets and the Messengers.”

If you help him (Muhammad) not (it does not matter), for Allah did indeed help him when the disbelievers drove him out, the second of two, when they both [Muhammad and Abu Bakr] were in the cave, and he said to his companion [Abu Bakr]: "Be not sad (or afraid), surely Allah is with us." Then Allah sent down His calmness upon him, and strengthened him with forces which you saw not, and made the word of those who disbelieved the lowermost, while it was the Word of Allah that became the uppermost, and Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise." (At-Tawbah 9:40)

“Allah and the believers deny those who dispute over you O Abu Bakr.”

“Jibrael came to me and took me by the hand then showed me the door of paradise from which my nation will enter.” Abu Bakr said, “I would love to be with you when you see it.” He replied, “As for you O Abu Bakr you shall be the first of my nation to enter paradise.”

 

Never mind my reference to Quran 4.59 and 5:54-55. They start with "Oh you who believe" so its not applicable to you.

Indeed. It starts with 'Oh you who believe' not ' Oh you who believe in Ali.

 

 

[Note from Moderator: No personal remarks and derailing of the thread].

Edited by Jaafar Al-Shibli
Irrelevancy and derailing the thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recent Posts on ShiaChat!

    • NO, IT IS HARAM. SENDING GIFT TO HER AND CONGRATULATING HER FOR HER FALLACIOUS MARRIAGE IS ALSO HARAM.
    • Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib(as)   I have avoided the discussion of “The God” and aspects and working, so we do not get distracted and dwell in the realm( of Evil, Mercy, Love, help, present/absent, why does he not act, or why he/ she is silent, why allow all this, that is going on ) that is out of our domain for this discussion at this point in time. If there is a need, I(Layman opinion) will say, The one who  created me, doesn't owe me anything, beyond guidance. If anything exists it's the lack of follow through or rejection of the guidance. I.e. If the humans allow conditions to develop, and there is oppression. Where is God is not the question. Question, is Humanity has been guided at two levels ( inner and outer), rejection of both is the issue not why God does not take away this evil person that we elected or tolerated until he/she turned on us(we were fine up untill it was happening to others). We human need to do our job, instead of having entitlement mentality, and deflect it to it's your fault God., where are you and why you do not help. We have been helped. Intellect/Guidance( brief understanding, as a layman). Maybe not the best example but it will suffice, We would not expect the Mars rover to dwell in the realm of our working, instead it should be concerned with its prime directive, and we are to provide it guidance to accomplish its work. There are may misunderstanding, in  definition, version, understanding due to linguistic, terminology(old/new), cultural (East/West) and lack of Conceptual discussion at the basic fundamental level instead of technicalities and mechanic(which is subconsciously embedded in the way we have been groomed in schools and universities). A charged and contentious environment does not help in getting to any resolution. It's usually tit for tat, and pride get in the way in different threads a that were responding to targeted and side issue out of context. No one to the best of my knowledge and understanding denies we are limited creations in all  aspects. Your creation and Your surrounding creation(s) , are proof of something that  can not be denied. So, there is a Cause, the unlimited, infinitely powerful, Unknown/Unseen Source of all this. What you(non Muslims) call that source is not relevant - you can call it a system,  I call it God. So, there are no Atheists or Agnostic here. What an Atheist/ Agnostic may be, saying is that they do not believe in the God of Islam as “presented “or as understood or as described. That is a very different issue. But this issue, gets mixed up with other issues dealing with the mechanics in other threads which are on specific topics. Getting back to the Topic. We turn now to Stephen Hawking. He proposes M-theory, a variant of string theory, to explain the origins of the universe. The conclusion of his last book, The Grand Design, states:
      Stephen Hawking is a SME ( Subject Matter Expert) in his field of Study. If he gave his scientific theory and left it at that. I would not care nor it should be my concern, as there are many SMEs and have their theories in the Scientific world about may things.  His connecting it to and concluding that there is no need for god( his understanding of what god is to him). Is the issue, I am highlighting it not only because of what he said, because he or people like him are followed and the laypeople use these ideas to formulate their ideology. This is something, prevalent, using  fiction which they call ‘Science” as a tool to attack Divine Religion. This is where this talk and connection / implication that this is the god and of you can’t pray to or ask for help form gravity, or physical laws are not empathetic, and are cold  and have no concern for the humans ….This connection makes no sense. Comparing apples and oranges and mixing stuff that is confusing. This mentally is delusional and it stems out of misunderstanding of the concepts of pray, or help, mercy, etc..or implications that ignorant people believe in miracles and angels. Or we can’t carbon date the text, or evidence of such and such event. In short ignorant conclusions by apparently learned people in their field of study Trickle down effect, and the lay Atheists/Agnostics take these talking point and formulate an opinion and argument with it. Objectivity is also an issue, here. Double standards. Scientific theories are not subject to the same rigorous, and shredding mentality.   Its 5000, 2000, 1400 old stuff, we are Technically advanced. We forget that this advancement is in Technology,(only). The basic alphabet  in terms of Social behavior, is as old as the cave people.  Moving beyond, Mechanics, working, Techinacilities and this attitude of the best generation to exist, every preceding generation had the same attitude. and we will be looked at and our theories considers as old and outdated by the new generations.  Its a Point is time assessment.  What are the benefits of the revealed information- i.e Revealed to us through our struggle and study through discovery of us and whats around us.? Do we follow the Laws, derived from this new knowledge?  If not what are we rally arguing about. If a person can't even at least in Theory acknowledge the laws of Nature for our(Humanity)  Benefit. If you were to do that, you may rethink you position, because you may realize that you have been arguing against something that Natural laws actually prove.  This is what concerns me, at this point. Why can't the objective, learned and "technically" advanced people  see that and make this connection? Technical stuff/mechanic, of Biological change, next stage, or toasters, cars, bridges, space race, new medicine and quest of the common animal are of what consequence except for knocking a book or theory of descent or maybe some new medicine may develop form the finding. If the theory of micro evolution as marketed to support the a particular version of evolution ,  is inserted here, its argues that we will always be a step behind and they(Virus) will mutate, or accomplishing something making life better and having some toys and pride issues over other nations that we went to pluto..so what ?  How does this help us , solving the social problems of Humanity? (That is what Divine Religion is about).. Is there a comprehensive Social theory under development due to above technical advancements. ?  Is there a comprehensive Social theory out there? (maybe not to the liking of the people due to Nurture, but is there) To, me it looks like a willful denial of the Nature, a clash of Nature vs Nurture. People are finding any thing to latch on to stay free of any obligation/accountability.  Correct me if I am wrong, I am a layman, average person. I read , what is written by people , i assess and drive at a conclusion. So, I post to be criticized, constructive criticism. So, I can better understand and remove misunderstanding(s) to gain better knowledge.   
    • The nature of the Existence is to exist. Thats all.
    • If the father doesn't approve of it, and didn't leave the door open for further contact, then that's it. They are not being disrespectful. Saying "no" should not forcibly come with an explanation, thus you can't demand it nor force them to listen to you. It is called freedom, and that is more sacred than anything you can tell them.
×