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skyweb1987

Allah Chosen Prophets & Leaders With Consultation.

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Can People Choose the Prophet or Caliph or Successor of the prophet with Shura or Consultation, instead of authority / command by Allah?

 

The following questions serve as a food for thought for mindful people.

1- Hz Adam as was chosen by Allah swt as caliph / successor on the earth.  Did Allah swt make any consultation  for his selection ?

2- Allah swt Chosen Ibrahim as as Imam / leader of the people, Did Allah swt consult any prophet or any person for his selection ?

3-  Hz Adam, Nuh,  Ibrahim and the progeny of Imran were chosen above the worlds. Did Allah swt make any consultation with any prophet or person for this selection?

4- The prophet Nuh and Ibrahim were  sent to his nation. Did the people choose them as prophet by Shura or consultation?

5- Allah swt gave the progeny of ibrahim, the book and the wisdom. Did Allah swt make any consultation or Shura with any one for this award to his progeny?

6- Allah swt chosed Ishmael, Elisha, Jonah and Lot—each graced over all the nations. Did Allah swt make any consultation for this grace?

7-Allah swt made Isac and yaqub leaders / imams, whom Allah consulted for this selection of leaders / imams?

8- Allah swt made Dawood  a caliph ie his successor as his chosen representative on the earth. Did Allah swt conduct any consultation for this selection?

9- Allah swt made Haroon as and aider and adviser of hz Musa as. Did Allah swt make any consultation with the Children of israel for such selection? Or Musa made any shura for his selection?

10- Musa asked his adviser and aider made by Allah swt ie Harun to take his place as his caliph / successor  in his absence, when he left for Mountain Tur. Did he make any shura for Haroon selection? However the people themselves chose and took a calf in Musa's absence then they were condemned by Allah swt for this worst action.

11- Allah swt made 12 leaders among the children of israel. Did Allah swt make any consultation for the selection of them?

12- Allah swt chosen Talut a leader over the children of Israel because of his knowledge and physical strength. Did Allah swt  make consultation for his selection?

13- Allah swt sent the prophet Muhammad saww as mercy to the mankind. Did he make any consultation for his selection?

14- Allah swt made the prophet Muhammad saww as his messenger and the last of the prophets. Did Allah make any consultation for this selection?

15- And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him). 28:68.

This verse in the light of above verses clearly indicates that the selection of representative (prophet / leader / imam/ successor) is the authority of Allah alone. and no one has any right for it. It does not involve any  consultation for  their selection.

 

16- The way of Allah does  not change:

[This is] the established way of Allah with those who passed on before; and you will not find in the way of Allah any change. (33:62)

 

17- The people do not have any right for selection of prophet or his representative then certainly they cannot choose any one after the prophet as his caliph ./ successor at their own (by any consultation) without permission by Allah.

 

Thus what happened after the prophet Muhammad saww for the selection of the Calif Abubakr is considered an innovation or bidda in the religion in violation to the established principles of the quran.

 

Regards

Edited by skamran110

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Salam

 

To me what was Bida was not selecting a leader to lead the nation which in absence of a selection one from Allah should be from shura, but naming him a successor of the Prophet. To be a ruler it's not to succeed the role and leadership of Mohammad which is was a divine authority, a divine leadership.

 

The fact that hadiths talk about 12 successors from Quraysh or 12 Successors who would rule this nation or to follow rightly guided successors, suggests there would be someone to inherit the divine leadership of Mohammad. 

 

To make these people rulers, righteous or not, is a bida and purposely misinterpretation of the words, and ignoring their meaning.

 

This is like saying the ruler that killed Yahya was a successor of Musa while Yahya was not. 

 

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The successor of the prophet holding the divine authority ie imam Ali has been declared by the prophet himself  at the incident of Zulasheera. Then  many events of  battles in Uhud, Badr, Khandaq and Khyber proved his strength and bravery. He is the most knowledgeable after the prophet being the gate of the city of  knowledge. Many traditions are proof of  his divine authority over the believes after the prophet like hadith thaqalayn, hadith Manzela, etc. Verse of purification, Verse of Mubahila and verse of wilaya, verse of Ghadeer ie baligh and many others are further evidences in this concern.

 

The ruler of group of people in Medina selected by so called shura in undemocratic incidents at saqeefa, Abubakr cannot be conisdered as holder of the divine authority of the prophet,  yes its true, in the light of principles of quran as mentioned in post no 1,  though people called him first caliph of the prophet that is obvious bidaa and innovation.

 

The example of the children of israel is mentioned in quran who made and took calf at their own instead they were ordered to follow Haroon in the absence of Musa. The quran addresses those people  as wrong doers.

 

The 12 successors of the priophet Muhammad saww from his pure progeny have been mentioned in many traditions from shia and sunni sources. Imam Ali being the first one and al-Mahdi being the last ie 12th one. They are the ones considered as divine guides after the prophet Muhammad saww for the nation. Most of the people deny the 12 successors just to save their so called ruler after the prophet who were  named as calif after the prophet Muhammad saww and it is obvious bidda. It is like the same that the heart of the children of the Israel were made full of love of that calf and took it by themselves.

 

There is no alternate set of 12 rulers /caliphs based on any sunni hadith (other than 12 successors from the pure progeny of the prophet Muhammad saww), All sunni hadith stop at only 4 names instead.

 

Regards

Edited by skamran110

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YES. After the finality of prophethood they can choose the caliph. In fact this is what exactly happened in reality. Imam Ali (as) also became the caliph in this way. Initially he refused and said I would love to be your vizier rather than caliph but finally he agreed, unlike the so called divine Imamah which he never defended.

Here are words of Imam Ali (as) explaining this matter.

Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance 1 to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

Allah's pleasure is with the one who is chosen by muhajirun and ansaar. Strong words. In other words after the finality of prophethood Allah's pleasure means which is agreed upon by muhajirun and ansaar. You will not get any direct command from Allah swt after the end of prophethood showing you that what Allah swt want to be the caliph by taking his name.

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11 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

YES. After the finality of prophethood they can choose the caliph. In fact this is what exactly happened in reality. Imam Ali (as) also became the caliph in this way. Initially he refused and said I would love to be your vizier rather than caliph but finally he agreed, unlike the so called divine Imamah which he never defended.

I like to see the verse of quran mentioning example of people chosen caliph for their guidance for your such understanding that people can choose caliph after the prophet Muhammad saww instead of  Allah swt.

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On 11/7/2017 at 10:35 PM, skyweb1987 said:

I like to see the verse of quran mentioning example of people chosen caliph for their guidance for your such understanding that people can choose caliph after the prophet Muhammad saww instead of  Allah swt.

Did I say its in Quran? I said after finality of prophethood it is duty of people to conduct their affairs including caliphate within the boundaries of quran and sunnah. And the last verse revealed was completion of deen so how can you find an example of people chosen caliph in quran which was supposed to happen after the demise of prophet or we can say after end of revelation. I think you are confusing matters of bani israil with this final ummah. Bani israil's all matters were in hands of prophets till prophet issa (as). After him who was his successor/caliph/imam? can you tell me? As you twelvers believe earth can not exist without an imam.

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number." The people asked, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! What do you order us (to do)?" He said, "Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfil their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship." [Bukhari]

Note: Caliphs will increase in number. Shia theory says only twelve while history has proven they were much more in number than 12. Thus proving the prophecy mentioned in above hadith.

And remember, your beleifs like 12 caliphs, appointment of Imam Ali at ghadir all are hadith discussions, not of Quran. Twelver concept of imamah is also not in Quran. They just pick and choose some ambiguous verses of quran and interpret them as per their manmade hadith driven beliefs.

Most of examples in OP are about prophets. And Talut was a military leader only, at that time prophet was someone else, whose job was to guide people. And as for as 12 leaders of bani israel are concerned they all were present at the same time, unlike twelver concept one imam after other. There is no match between these two concepts. In short in quran there is no any example of any non prophet as an Imam. Then how come you claim imamah for ahlebayt? were they prophets?

As a side note: Lets consider shia marja system and supreme leader not just leader but supreme. Its also upto the people to whom they chose. And all marja are not on the same page on everything. This is reality which they realized finally after their hopless waiting for centuries.

 

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Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number." The people asked, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! What do you order us (to do)?" He said, "Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfil their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship." [Bukhari]

Note: Caliphs will increase in number. Shia theory says only twelve while history has proven they were much more in number than 12. Thus proving the prophecy mentioned in above hadith.

Yes like Sunni hadith is somehow proof for us. This hadith is an excellence of forgery, lets give validity of authority to the people like Yazid and every Muslim need to obey them as same as Obedience of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى, Messenger (saws).

Let me ask you a question, Do you think Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى give leadership of Ummah to people who enjoy His disobedience? Or rather He give them to purified ones (that is defined in 33:33) who only enjoy his obedience?

Edited by Dhulfikar

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7 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Did I say its in Quran? I said after finality of prophethood it is duty of people to conduct their affairs including caliphate within the boundaries of quran and sunnah. And the last verse revealed was completion of deen so how can you find an example of people chosen caliph in quran which was supposed to happen after the demise of prophet or we can say after end of revelation. I think you are confusing matters of bani israil with this final ummah. Bani israil's all matters were in hands of prophets till prophet issa (as). After him who was his successor/caliph/imam? can you tell me? As you twelvers believe earth can not exist without an imam.

If it is not in Quran then your  assumption that the people has right to chose a caliph at their own after the prophet saww is baseless and false and this conjecture is rejected.

Do not  the sunni follow Quran? Do they take the matter that is not defined in the quran as part of Islam to be followed? 

The matter of cl;caliphate after the prophet saww is not the matter of the people it is the matter of Allah swt. i have quoted more than 15 examples from the quran on it as evidence of my view and you have not find a single verse  or example on it.

This matter is not defined in the quran but it is the matter against the verses of quran thus we do have right to reject the man made caliphate system.

Edited by skyweb1987

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19 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:
Quote

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number." The people asked, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! What do you order us (to do)?" He said, "Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfil their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship." [Bukhari]

Note: Caliphs will increase in number. Shia theory says only twelve while history has proven they were much more in number than 12. Thus proving the prophecy mentioned in above hadith.

Yes like Sunni hadith is somehow proof for us. This hadith is an excellence of forgery, lets give validity of authority to the people like Yazid and every Muslim need to obey them as same as Obedience of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى, Messenger (saws).

Let me ask you a question, Do you think Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى give leadership of Ummah to people who enjoy His disobedience? Or rather He give them to purified ones (that is defined in 33:33) who only enjoy his obedience?

You can easily verify the hadith by taking account on history of israelis that how they used be ruled by prophets.

Moreover, you are doing the exact same mistake like other members are doing here that singling out a verse or hadith and then start making lame conclusions. This is not the only hadith on matter of caliphate. If you read other ahadith you will find that prophet said there will be both good and bad caliphs in this ummah.

It has been narrated (through a different chain of tmnamitters) on the authority of Umm Salama (wife of the Holy Prophet) that he said:

Amirs will be appointed over you, and you will find them doing good as well as bad deeds. One who hates their bad deeds is absolved from blame. One who disapproves of their bad deeds is (also) safe (so far as Divine wrath is concerned). But one who approves of their bad deeds and imitates them (is doomed). People asked: Messenger of Allah, shouldn't we fight against them? He replied: No, as long as they say their prayer. (" Hating and disapproving" refers to liking and disliking from the heart.) Sahih Muslim 1854 b
 
This particular hadith is from Umm Salma, who is also narrator of hadith of cloak.
 
It says Amirs will be appointed over you, who will appoint? Life is a test.
 
And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient. [2:155]
 

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15 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

If it is not in Quran then your  assumption that the people has right to chose a caliph at their own after the prophet saww is baseless and false and this conjecture is rejected.

Do not  the sunni follow Quran? Do they take the matter that is not defined in the quran as part of Islam to be followed? 

The matter of cl;caliphate after the prophet saww is not the matter of the people it is the matter of Allah swt. i have quoted more than 15 examples from the quran on it as evidence of my view and you have not find a single verse  or example on it.

This matter is not defined in the quran but it is the matter against the verses of quran thus we do have right to reject the man made caliphate system.

Conjecture? This is what actually happened in reality unlike theory of 12 Imams, most of them never got any power to rule. In others words were not ulil amr. If you really need a verse then it is 4:58-59.

Now tell me following your logic. Which verse of Quran say there will be 12 imams after prophet? And we must have to obey them otherwise we will be doomed? No hadith it has to be in Quran clearly. If you quote hadith then what you are asking from me is also in ahadith from Imam Ali as well.

All your examples are about prophets. Show me any example from quran about any non prophet being termed as Imam. Be honest on your claims.

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3 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Conjecture? This is what actually happened in reality unlike theory of 12 Imams, most of them never got any power to rule. In others words were not ulil amr. If you really need a verse then it is 4:58-59.

Now tell me following your logic. Which verse of Quran say there will be 12 imams after prophet? And we must have to obey them otherwise we will be doomed? No hadith it has to be in Quran clearly. If you quote hadith then what you are asking from me is also in ahadith from Imam Ali as well.

All your examples are about prophets. Show me any example from quran about any non prophet being termed as Imam. Be honest on your claims.

I like to see the verse of quran mentioning example of people chosen caliph for their guidance for your such understanding that people can choose caliph after the prophet Muhammad saww instead of  Allah swt.

.....Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful." (2:111)
 
Edited by skyweb1987

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You can easily verify the hadith by taking account on history of israelis that how they used be ruled by prophets.

That is not an validity for verifying a hadith. How many weaks hadith we have that they refer to historical context or some parts of them are truth? 

And it is unfair actually and not reasonable, that the hadith refers to Bani Israels prophets to be rulers of their Ummah who we know are supported and choosed by Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى, then suddenly we have in our final Ummah that Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى loves most, Fallible's , Sinner Rulers and choosed by people.

In Shiasm, Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى protects and support and choose his Ummah leaders same how He have always being doing.

Quote
This particular hadith is from Umm Salma, who is also narrator of hadith of cloak.

Please don't compare to hadith of cloak that is widely reported in both Shi'as and Sunnis. And just if the narrator is Umm Salama (ra), it does not mean the chain is something we consider to be strong, or that the narrator really said the following hadith. Actually I don't even like this, because I'm here trying to arguing by your hadiths that are not proof to me in first place. That's why I can only disprove them from Qur'an and Aql.

Quote
It says Amirs will be appointed over you, who will appoint? Life is a test.

Does it says that Amirs are appointed over you and that we need to OBEY them? Wait who exactly these Amirs are that disobey Allah? How can we obey them, when the obedience have been given (Qur'an 4:59) as same how we should obey Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى and Messenger (saws) who are pure and infallible. Have Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى not mentioned in Qur'an that we should never obey or follow the Sinners and that most of the people will leads us to misguidance? 

So be patient for the decision of your Lord and do not obey from among them a sinner or ungrateful [disbeliever].
And if you obey most of those upon the earth, they will mislead you from the way of Allah. They follow not except assumption, and they are not but falsifying.

--

I want to repeat my questions:

Do you think Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى give leadership of Ummah to people who enjoy His disobedience? Or rather He give them to purified ones (that is defined in 33:33) who only enjoy His obedience?

Edited by Dhulfikar

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2 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

I like to see the verse of quran mentioning example of people chosen caliph for their guidance for your such understanding that people can choose caliph after the prophet Muhammad saww instead of  Allah swt.

.....Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful." (2:111)
 

First let tell you for guidance it is book of Allah swt and sayings of Prophet saw. As for ulil amr or caliphs are concerned then their obedience is conditional. See 4:59. So to be honest your question itself is wrong. Moreover I have answered you in different angels in different threads even via words of Imam Ali (as). I can not further spoon feed.

Furthermore, why are you ignoring my questions from every thread.

5 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Conjecture? This is what actually happened in reality unlike theory of 12 Imams, most of them never got any power to rule. In others words were not ulil amr. If you really need a verse then it is 4:58-59.

Now tell me following your logic. Which verse of Quran say there will be 12 imams after prophet? And we must have to obey them otherwise we will be doomed? No hadith it has to be in Quran clearly. If you quote hadith then what you are asking from me is also in ahadith from Imam Ali as well.

All your examples are about prophets. Show me any example from quran about any non prophet being termed as Imam. Be honest on your claims.

 

Read carefully before beating about the bush. Awaiting your answers for your claims.

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All your examples are about prophets. Show me any example from quran about any non prophet being termed as Imam. Be honest on your claims.

Talut is not an prophet. Nor it is required an Imam to be an prophet. It is God who choose Who Is King, Leader, Prophet, Messenger.

Here it is verse where Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى made among the Bani Israel Imams to Guide by Allah Command, not by people. It does not refer them to be Prophets or Messengers, but it is an general sense:

And We certainly gave Moses the Scripture, so do not be in doubt over his meeting. And we made the Torah guidance for the Children of Israel. And we made of them Imams to guide by our command when they were patient and they were certain of our communications. (Surah Sajdah 32:23-24)

Then we have the opposite Imams, those that leads to the disobedience!

And we made them Imams who call to the fire and on the day of Qiyamat they shall not be assisted. And we caused a curse to follow them in this world, and on the day of Qiyamat they shall be of those made to appear hideous. (Surah Qasas 28:41-42)

So tell me Which Imams we are supposed to be follow and obey? The Disobeying Imams or Obeying Imams that leads us to guidance? Is Yazid or Abu Bakar al Baghdadi an Guided Imam or Imam that calls to the fire? 

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2 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

First let tell you for guidance it is book of Allah swt and sayings of Prophet saw. As for ulil amr or caliphs are concerned then their obedience is conditional. See 4:59. So to be honest your question itself is wrong. Moreover I have answered you in different angels in different threads even via words of Imam Ali (as). I can not further spoon feed.

I have asked you the question since my last 3 posts and you are unable to quote a single verse mentioning the principle that people can choose their caliphs for their guidance,  thus i have already rejected sunni view being against the verses of Quran. 

The essence of dialogue is to respond to the question asked in the posts instead of zigzag responses.

The book of Allah swt mentions the principles and the action of the prophet saww explains its implementation. The criteria of any hadith is that it is judged by the verses of quran if the principle does not exist in quran the relevant hadith are not considered applicable and can be rejected. You are just trying to put words in my mouth about irrelevant verses and hadith.

.....Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful." (2:111)

I am asking the verse mentioning the principle of your understanding and there is no verse in the quran for people chosen caliph. There is no single example that the people can choose the caliph / leader/ imam or prophet saaw at their own for their guidance. thus sunni view of people chosen caliph is rejected.

Edited by skyweb1987

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9 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Conjecture? This is what actually happened in reality unlike theory of 12 Imams, most of them never got any power to rule. In others words were not ulil amr. If you really need a verse then it is 4:58-59.

إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَأْمُرُكُمْ أَن تُؤَدُّوا الْأَمَانَاتِ إِلَىٰ أَهْلِهَا وَإِذَا حَكَمْتُم بَيْنَ النَّاسِ أَن تَحْكُمُوا بِالْعَدْلِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ نِعِمَّا يَعِظُكُم بِهِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ سَمِيعًا بَصِيرًا

Shakir: Surely Allah commands you to make over trusts to their owners and that when you judge between people you judge with justice; surely Allah admonishes you with what is excellent; surely Allah is Seeing, Hearing. (4:58)

The verse is mentioning that the trusts should be given their rightful owners.

Do you consider thatt he prophet saww has left the ummah without a guided rightful caliph / leader / imam after him and made a mistake or violation of the verses and he gave the man made caliphate to ummah that does not exist in quran?

The history does tell that the rightful successor. leader .imam after the prophet saww in the light of the principles of Quran was announced at many occasions as Imam Ali AS.

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ ۖ فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end. (4;59)

In the light of the first verses the prophet has given the trusts to 12 Imams the first one is Imam  Ali AS and the 12th is Al Mahdi AS, they are Ulil Amr as our  narrations. They are not a people chosen caliph. I have also proven with my research in the other thread about Ulil Amr are the 12 imams  from Ahl alabaayt AS.

This principle of selection of leader.of ummah other than the prophet has been mentioned in quran in the verse given below:

أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَى الْمَلَإِ مِن بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ مِن بَعْدِ مُوسَىٰ إِذْ قَالُوا لِنَبِيٍّ لَّهُمُ ابْعَثْ لَنَا مَلِكًا نُّقَاتِلْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ ۖ قَالَ هَلْ عَسَيْتُمْ إِن كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْقِتَالُ أَلَّا تُقَاتِلُوا ۖ قَالُوا وَمَا لَنَا أَلَّا نُقَاتِلَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ وَقَدْ أُخْرِجْنَا مِن دِيَارِنَا وَأَبْنَائِنَا ۖ فَلَمَّا كُتِبَ عَلَيْهِمُ الْقِتَالُ تَوَلَّوْا إِلَّا قَلِيلًا مِّنْهُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِالظَّالِمِينَ

Have you not considered the chiefs of the children of Israel after Musa, when they said to a prophet of theirs: Raise up for us a king, (that) we may fight in the way of Allah. He said: May it not be that you would not fight if fighting is ordained for you? They said: And what reason have we that we should not fight in the way of Allah, and we have indeed been compelled to abandon our homes and our children. But when fighting was ordained for them, they turned back, except a few of them, and Allah knows the unjust. (2:246)

وَقَالَ لَهُمْ نَبِيُّهُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ قَدْ بَعَثَ لَكُمْ طَالُوتَ مَلِكًا ۚ قَالُوا أَنَّىٰ يَكُونُ لَهُ الْمُلْكُ عَلَيْنَا وَنَحْنُ أَحَقُّ بِالْمُلْكِ مِنْهُ وَلَمْ يُؤْتَ سَعَةً مِّنَ الْمَالِ ۚ قَالَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصْطَفَاهُ عَلَيْكُمْ وَزَادَهُ بَسْطَةً فِي الْعِلْمِ وَالْجِسْمِ ۖ وَاللَّهُ يُؤْتِي مُلْكَهُ مَن يَشَاءُ ۚ وَاللَّهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ

And their prophet said to them: Surely Allah has raised Talut to be a king over you. They said: How can he hold kingship over us while we have a greater right to kingship than he, and he has not been granted an abundance of wealth? He said: Surely Allah has chosen him in preference to you, and   and Allah grants His kingdom to whom He pleases, and Allah is Amplegiving, Knowing. (2:247)

The aove two verses clarify that  the people did not choose the leader after the prophet but they asked the prophet and even the prophet did not make its choice on the leadership of the leader but he prayed to Allah swt for it.

The second verses clarifies it further that Allah swt selected Talut as leader over the peole. No shura no consultation even not chosen by the prophet saww. but Allah chosen him over the people because of He has increased him abundantly in knowledge and physique,

This scenario explained in the verses completely destroys the sunni view as there is no principle of people chosen caliph is present in quran

Edited by skyweb1987

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9 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Now tell me following your logic. Which verse of Quran say there will be 12 imams after prophet? And we must have to obey them otherwise we will be doomed? No hadith it has to be in Quran clearly. If you quote hadith then what you are asking from me is also in ahadith from Imam Ali as well.

In my last post I have mentioned that he principle exist in quran for the selection of leaders / imams/ caliphs /prophets by Allah swt for the guidance of the people so that they follow guided leaders. In the light of this principle the prophet saww has calcified it that there will be 12 leaders/ caliphs .imams after him. The Sunni hadith does mentioned it that here will be 12 caliphs/ ameers/ imams / leaders after him.  

The principle about the selection of the prophets, caliphs, iambs and leaders has been mentioned in the 15 examples given in OP.  My  last post as linked below does describe it.

there are examples of the leaders who were not chosen by the people but Allah swt selected them and they were not prophets:

One example  I have  mentioned from quran that Talut was selected as leader by Allah swt and he was not a prophet. The link is below:

I mention the following examples also who were not prophets and they were selected by Allah swt without consultation and not by the people:

In Mansab-e-Imamate whilst discussing ‘Maqaam Bashath Ghayr Nabi’ Shah Ismaeel Shaheedstates that non Prophets were also appointed by non Prophets: Citing verse 12 of Surah Maida he states:

“Allah did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel and we appointed twelve Leaders among them – its clear that these representatives were not Prophets.

Surah Sajdah verse 24:
And We appointed, from among them, leaders, giving guidance under Our command, so long as they persevered with patience and continued to have faith in Our Signs.

‘Mansab e Imamate’ by Shah Ismail Shaheed, pages 71-72

wasalam

Edited by skyweb1987

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9 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

All your examples are about prophets. Show me any example from quran about any non prophet being termed as Imam. Be honest on your claims.

Many examples of non prophet leaders chosen by Allah swt have been mentioned in my last post given above.

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23 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

That is not an validity for verifying a hadith. How many weaks hadith we have that they refer to historical context or some parts of them are truth?

This also do not mean that not a single hadith is true with respect to historical context. And its not the only hadith in this matter. There are hundreds other. Refer kitab ul imarah, sahih muslim.

23 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

And it is unfair actually and not reasonable, that the hadith refers to Bani Israels prophets to be rulers of their Ummah who we know are supported and choosed by Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى, then suddenly we have in our final Ummah that Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى loves most, Fallible's , Sinner Rulers and choosed by people.

Because now its end of prophethood and end of revelation. You can not continue the same tradition by just changing the name from prophet to imam while rest all things are same. There were many things in sharia of bani israel which are not part of this ummah. This ummah never get mann and salwah like them. This ummah got the quran in stages not all at once like them and so on.

23 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

In Shiasm, Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى protects and support and choose his Ummah leaders same how He have always being doing.

Really? But the same leaders, prophets were not supposed to do taqqiyah most of their life leaving their followers and even their own children confused, hence several sects formed and many of their children claimed imamah for themselves. This is what you want me to believe. And the last guide is missing since centuries, in absence of which you are following scholars. The thing which prophet saww already told us to follow after him as the scholars are his heirs. Not 12 Imams.

Abu 'Abdillah (Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq) says that Rasulullah said: "... And the 'Ulama are the heirs of the Ambiya; and the Ambiya did not leave dinars and dirhams as inheritance; but they left knowledge. Therefore whosoever takes knowledge has taken a great portion." (al-Kafi, vol. 1 p. 42)

23 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

Please don't compare to hadith of cloak that is widely reported in both Shi'as and Sunnis. And just if the narrator is Umm Salama (ra), it does not mean the chain is something we consider to be strong, or that the narrator really said the following hadith. Actually I don't even like this, because I'm here trying to arguing by your hadiths that are not proof to me in first place. That's why I can only disprove them from Qur'an and Aql.

This was exactly what happened after prophet. History itself proves it. And more similar ahaidth you will get in in book kitab ul imarah of sahih muslim.

23 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

Does it says that Amirs are appointed over you and that we need to OBEY them? Wait who exactly these Amirs are that disobey Allah? How can we obey them, when the obedience have been given (Qur'an 4:59) as same how we should obey Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى and Messenger (saws) who are pure and infallible. Have Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى not mentioned in Qur'an that we should never obey or follow the Sinners and that most of the people will leads us to misguidance? 

So be patient for the decision of your Lord and do not obey from among them a sinner or ungrateful [disbeliever].
And if you obey most of those upon the earth, they will mislead you from the way of Allah. They follow not except assumption, and they are not but falsifying.

--

I want to repeat my questions:

Do you think Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى give leadership of Ummah to people who enjoy His disobedience? Or rather He give them to purified ones (that is defined in 33:33) who only enjoy His obedience?

I think you also dont read full verses and ahadith like your other fellow members.

Hadith of umm salama.

Amirs will be appointed over you, and you will find them doing good as well as bad deeds. One who hates their bad deeds is absolved from blame. One who disapproves of their bad deeds is (also) safe (so far as Divine wrath is concerned). But one who approves of their bad deeds and imitates them (is doomed). People asked: Messenger of Allah, shouldn't we fight against them? He replied: No, as long as they say their prayer. (" Hating and disapproving" refers to liking and disliking from the heart.) Sahih Muslim 1854 b

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On 11/10/2017 at 8:16 AM, Dhulfikar said:

Talut is not an prophet. Nor it is required an Imam to be an prophet. It is God who choose Who Is King, Leader, Prophet, Messenger.

Talut was a king, who was appointed to serve as military leader only not for their guidance. For guidance they already had a prophet.

Have you not considered the assembly of the Children of Israel after [the time of] Moses when they said to a prophet of theirs, “Send us a king, and we will fight in the way of Allah “? He said, “Would you perhaps refrain from fighting if fighting was prescribed for you?” They said, “And why should we not fight in the cause of Allah when we have been driven out from our homes and our children?” But when fighting was prescribed for them, they turned away, except for a few of them. And Allah knows of the wrongdoers. [2:246]

On 11/10/2017 at 8:16 AM, Dhulfikar said:

Here it is verse where Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى made among the Bani Israel Imams to Guide by Allah Command, not by people. It does not refer them to be Prophets or Messengers, but it is an general sense:

And We certainly gave Moses the Scripture, so do not be in doubt over his meeting. And we made the Torah guidance for the Children of Israel. And we made of them Imams to guide by our command when they were patient and they were certain of our communications. (Surah Sajdah 32:23-24)

Then we have the opposite Imams, those that leads to the disobedience!

And we made them Imams who call to the fire and on the day of Qiyamat they shall not be assisted. And we caused a curse to follow them in this world, and on the day of Qiyamat they shall be of those made to appear hideous. (Surah Qasas 28:41-42)

So tell me Which Imams we are supposed to be follow and obey? The Disobeying Imams or Obeying Imams that leads us to guidance? Is Yazid or Abu Bakar al Baghdadi an Guided Imam or Imam that calls to the fire? 

If its in general sense then its also possile that it refer to the prophets. And history and ahadith shows that they used to be ruled and governed by prophets.

Also read the verses before and after it, all are coonected. And we made them Imams here refers to Pharaoh and Haman. Who made them Imams? How can Allah do so?

So based on all above verses you shared, it can concluded that on good side we have prophets like musa (as) and on opposite side we have people who ooposed the prophet like Pharaoh and Haman.

There is nothing in above verses which make it clear that in our ummah we have divinly appointed guides who also used to misguide people due to their fondness of taqqiyah.

Now this hadith will make more sense.

Amirs will be appointed over you, and you will find them doing good as well as bad deeds. One who hates their bad deeds is absolved from blame. One who disapproves of their bad deeds is (also) safe (so far as Divine wrath is concerned). But one who approves of their bad deeds and imitates them (is doomed). People asked: Messenger of Allah, shouldn't we fight against them? He replied: No, as long as they say their prayer. (" Hating and disapproving" refers to liking and disliking from the heart.) Sahih Muslim 1854 b

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20 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ ۖ فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end. (4;59)

Again you are taking only a part of verse as usual. See rest part of verse which make things more clear. Obedience to ulil amr is conditional. Final authority is Allah and His Rasool and its the better and good way.

This reminds me of letter 6.

Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance 1 to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

But you are in habbit of only accepting a part of verse or hadith then what can I say.

20 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

This principle of selection of leader.of ummah other than the prophet has been mentioned in quran in the verse given below:

أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَى الْمَلَإِ مِن بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ مِن بَعْدِ مُوسَىٰ إِذْ قَالُوا لِنَبِيٍّ لَّهُمُ ابْعَثْ لَنَا مَلِكًا نُّقَاتِلْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ ۖ قَالَ هَلْ عَسَيْتُمْ إِن كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْقِتَالُ أَلَّا تُقَاتِلُوا ۖ قَالُوا وَمَا لَنَا أَلَّا نُقَاتِلَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ وَقَدْ أُخْرِجْنَا مِن دِيَارِنَا وَأَبْنَائِنَا ۖ فَلَمَّا كُتِبَ عَلَيْهِمُ الْقِتَالُ تَوَلَّوْا إِلَّا قَلِيلًا مِّنْهُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِالظَّالِمِينَ

Have you not considered the chiefs of the children of Israel after Musa, when they said to a prophet of theirs: Raise up for us a king, (that) we may fight in the way of Allah. He said: May it not be that you would not fight if fighting is ordained for you? They said: And what reason have we that we should not fight in the way of Allah, and we have indeed been compelled to abandon our homes and our children. But when fighting was ordained for them, they turned back, except a few of them, and Allah knows the unjust. (2:246)

And their prophet said to them: Surely Allah has raised Talut to be a king over you. They said: How can he hold kingship over us while we have a greater right to kingship than he, and he has not been granted an abundance of wealth? He said: Surely Allah has chosen him in preference to you, and   and Allah grants His kingdom to whom He pleases, and Allah is Amplegiving, Knowing. (2:247)

The aove two verses clarify that  the people did not choose the leader after the prophet but they asked the prophet and even the prophet did not make its choice on the leadership of the leader but he prayed to Allah swt for it.

Talut was a king who was chosen only as military leader not for guidance. For guidance they already had a prophet (when they said to a prophet of theirs). Its like when prophet saww appointed someone from his companions for any army during his lifetime. And it all happened during the prophet not after the prophet. So your analogy is invalid.

19 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

In Mansab-e-Imamate whilst discussing ‘Maqaam Bashath Ghayr Nabi’ Shah Ismaeel Shaheedstates that non Prophets were also appointed by non Prophets: Citing verse 12 of Surah Maida he states:

“Allah did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel and we appointed twelve Leaders among them – its clear that these representatives were not Prophets.

Those twelve leaders were tribal chiefs for their twelve tribes. All existed at the same time not one after the other. This analogy with your man made concept of imamah one after the other and last one being missing is also invalid.

Edited by Munzir Ahmed

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21 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

I have asked you the question since my last 3 posts and you are unable to quote a single verse mentioning the principle that people can choose their caliphs for their guidance,  thus i have already rejected sunni view being against the verses of Quran. 

The essence of dialogue is to respond to the question asked in the posts instead of zigzag responses.

The book of Allah swt mentions the principles and the action of the prophet saww explains its implementation. The criteria of any hadith is that it is judged by the verses of quran if the principle does not exist in quran the relevant hadith are not considered applicable and can be rejected. You are just trying to put words in my mouth about irrelevant verses and hadith.

.....Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful." (2:111)

I am asking the verse mentioning the principle of your understanding and there is no verse in the quran for people chosen caliph. There is no single example that the people can choose the caliph / leader/ imam or prophet saaw at their own for their guidance. thus sunni view of people chosen caliph is rejected.

 

Here is the verse of Quran which you are asking. Not only a verse in fact there is an entire surah with name shura (consultation), while same is not present in your case.

I am quoting here the entire passage not just a verse out of context.

[36-43] Whatever you have been given, is merely a provision for the transitory life of this world, and that which is with Allah is better as well as more lasting. That is for those who have believed and put their trust in their Lord. Who refrain from gross sins and indecencies. Who, when they are angry, forgive. Who obey their Lord, establish the Salat, and conduct their affairs by mutual consultation. Who spend out of what We have given them as sustenance. Who, when they are oppressed, help and defend themselves. The recompense of evil is a like evil, then whoever pardons and seeks reconcilement, his reward is with Allah. Allah does not like the wrongdoers. And those who avenge themselves after they have been wronged, cannot be held blameworthy, for blameworthy indeed are those who oppress others and commit excesses in the land without any right. For such people there is a painful torment. However, the one who practices patience and is forgiving. these indeed are works of great courage and resolution.

This thing has been counted here as one of the best quality of believers. Clearly an opposition to your version of choice is not yours (which you have taken out of context from quran which in fact is talking about matters related to shirk). If choice is not ours then why to do consultation. The verse says conduct your affairs with mutual consultation, caliphate is surely the biggest affair of all. In contrast to conduct the affairs of collective life without consultation is not only the way of ignorance but also a clear violation of the law prescribed by Allah. This law became violeted from the time when Yazid came into power. He was the first one who was made caliph without consultation. So blame is on wrongdoers not on the precribed rule by Allah. Ahadith also tells us that there will be both good and bad caliphs in this ummah. Imam Ali also once cursed people of kufa that may Allah give me good followers and them a bad ruler.

Now read letter 6 once again in light of this verse. Just like muawiyah this letter is also a reference to all those who reject the shura system of caliphate.

Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance 1 to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

And prophet saww also used to consult with muhajirun and ansaar and with other tribal chiefs for their collective affairs like battles, etc except in cases where direct revelation came. This consultation was also a part of revelation enjoined by Allah swt during the prophethood of prophet saww.  Thus making it an important pillar of islam.

[159-160] (O Messenger,) it is a great mercy of Allah that you are very gentle and lenient towards them: for, had you been harsh and hard hearted, they all would have broken away from you: so pardon them and implore Allah to forgive them, and take counsel with them in the conduct of the affairs; then, when once you make up your mind (to do a thing), trust in Allah (and do it). Allah likes those who trust in Him in whatever they do. If Allah helps you, no power can overcome you, and if He forsakes you, who is there, then, after Him to help you? Therefore, true believers should trust in Allah alone.

This is the system of government mentioned in quran and is described as one of the best qulaity of believers, unlike imamah. Now answer me following: Where it is mentioned in quran that believing in imams is part of faith, or there will be twelve imams in this ummah etc? Do you have any similar unambiguous verse in quran like we have for shura system? Instead of taking parts of verses from here and there show me just one clear verse showing what you claim. Dont tell me since this and that happened in bani israel so we also have the same rules. There were many things in bani israel which we dont have in final ummah.

This thread may help you http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/61569-the-concept-of-imamah-in-the-quran/

You asked for one verse and ALHAMDULILAH I found mulitple.

We ahlul sunnah believe in quranic system of government, unlike so called imamah concept which is nothing but a man made theory with confused reality refer http://www.*************/2017/02/11/understanding-imamate-early-shia-society/. On death of every single Imam people differed badly on who is the next possible Imam. This clearly shows the absence of any nass or narrations with names of imams etc at that time. Thus even some of their sons claimed imamah for themselves, like Abdullah Aftah, son of Jafar Sadiq. For more on this confused reality refer following sources:

Book “Firaq al Shia” by Al Hassan bin Musa Abu Muhammad al Nawbakhti, also in the books al Fusoul al Mukhtarah by Muhammad bin Muhammad bin al Nu’uman known as al Mufid, Bihar al Anwar vol 47 by Muhammad Baqir al Majlisi.

w.salam

Edited by Munzir Ahmed

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This also do not mean that not a single hadith is true with respect to historical context. And its not the only hadith in this matter. There are hundreds other. Refer kitab ul imarah, sahih muslim.

 

That's why It is not proof for us and only proof for you. 

Quote

Because now its end of prophethood and end of revelation. You can not continue the same tradition by just changing the name from prophet to imam while rest all things are same. There were many things in sharia of bani israel which are not part of this ummah. This ummah never get mann and salwah like them. This ummah got the quran in stages not all at once like them and so on.

 

So the reason that Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى choosing and protecting and guiding his communication goes away as long there is no prophet-hood and no revelation? Where did you get this?

Quote

Really? But the same leaders, prophets were not supposed to do taqqiyah most of their life leaving their followers and even their own children confused, hence several sects formed and many of their children claimed imamah for themselves. This is what you want me to believe. And the last guide is missing since centuries, in absence of which you are following scholars. The thing which prophet saww already told us to follow after him as the scholars are his heirs. Not 12 Imams.

May Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى make you believe if He choose so. It is your reasoning that is troubling. It seems that you are so fine to accept Amirs with their disgusting nature and call it test of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى, but when it comes to Imams, you call them taqiyah of most of their life and making their children and followers confused. How do you come to that conclusion that Imams leaved their followers confused? or that Taqiyyah made his followers confused? But the reality is different of what you really think is. 

Quote

The thing which prophet saww already told us to follow after him as the scholars are his heirs. Not 12 Imams.

No. Read your own books what the Prophet leaved to us to obey and follow. Qur'an and Ahlulbait (as). Scholars are inheritance of the knowledge and they teach from the Quran and Sunnah, making us easier to learn and understand, but you do not obey them. In the absence of Imam you only obey the knowledge of the Qur'an and Sunnah. When Imam Mehdi (as) comes then it is wajib to obey him.

Quote

This was exactly what happened after prophet. History itself proves it. And more similar ahaidth you will get in in book kitab ul imarah of sahih muslim.

 

Lol. And 100-200 years later hadiths are proof for it. And nothing forgery could happen between them.

What happened after prophet is more complicated than what your own books says. 

Quote

I think you also dont read full verses and ahadith like your other fellow members.

I did read it like 3-4 times. I can't see it yet where it says we need to obey them. What I understood from the hadith is that there will be Amirs after you doing their worldly stuff, and be careful to not to approve their badness. Where in the hadith says anything of wajib to obeying them?

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Talut was a king, who was appointed to serve as military leader only not for their guidance. For guidance they already had a prophet.

My point is simple: It is God who choose Who Is King, Leader, Prophet, Messenger for Ummah.  

Quote

If its in general sense then its also possile that it refer to the prophets. 

General does not mean it can refer only to one group, but all different groups.

Quote

Also read the verses before and after it, all are coonected. And we made them Imams here refers to Pharaoh and Haman. Who made them Imams? How can Allah do so?

And we made them Imams

Who made them, Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى or them? Because of their actions and belief, Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى then choose them as leaders of guidance or non guidance. Not by people choose them.

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There is nothing in above verses which make it clear that in our ummah we have divinly appointed guides who also used to misguide people due to their fondness of taqqiyah.

The whole argument of the two verse is to show that Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى choose Imams to lead or mislead and it is not necessary to them to be prophets.

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There is nothing in above verses which make it clear that in our ummah we have divinly appointed guides who also used to misguide people due to their fondness of taqqiyah.

Ah, a nasibi true colors is showing of course. I feel sad for your false conclusion, but I can't do nothing.

Have a good day. And in the end you could not even answer to my main questions (three times mentioned) that I posted in my first topic.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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