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SolidRock

What Did Muhammad Believe Before His Revelations?

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I'm trying to understand something, and I'm a little confused...

 

In my discussions with Muslims over the years, I've been told that the Bible has been corrupted and cannot be trusted (even though no Muslim has been able to tell me when the Bible supposedly became corrupted).  I've also been told that Islam honors Noah, Moses, Abraham and Jesus as great prophets of God.  But here's my question -- before the Qur'an was revealed, what did Muhammad and those in his community know about Noah, Moses and Abraham, and where did they get their information about those prophets from?  Did they have their own historical records, or were they getting their knowledge from a corrupted Bible?  Or was the Bible correct 1,400 years ago in Muhammad's time, and only got corrupted after the Qur'an was revealed?  To word the question better, was the Bible ALREADY corrupted in Muhammad's time?  If so, the corruption (at least the corruption of the New Testament) would have to have occurred during the 600 years between the time of Jesus and the time of Muhammad.  And if the Old Testament had been corrupted in Jesus' time, He would have said so, but since He didn't, then both the OT and the NT would have to have suddenly become corrupted during the 600 years between Jesus and Muhammad (even though no corruption happened for thousands of years prior to that, and no corruption has occurred since then -- I find it amazing that the corruption could only have occurred in the time after Jesus, leading up to Muhammad!).  Is that the Muslim belief? 

 

Again though, the main question is, what did Muhammad know about Noah, Moses and Abraham prior to the revelation of the Qur'an, and where did he get that knowledge from?  The corrupted Bible, or another source?

 

Peace,

The Rock   <><

 

 

 

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Hi SR

 

Long time!

 

How have you been?

 

There is reason to believe that while most Arabs were idol-worshipping non-believers, Muhammad and his family believed in one God.

 

The details of his knowledge are not known.

 

One can only guess. 

 

Cheers

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There were Christians and Jews around. Mohammed (as) was monotheist, but didn't belong to any particular sect of believer. Most people were polytheist, so most likely he and his family kept their beliefs to themselves.

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When asking these question you first have to determine what Muslim sect you are talking to. Sunnis believe that Prophet Mohammed (pbuhahp) became a Prophet after he received his revelation.

 

Shias believe Prophet Mohammed (pbuhahp) was born a prophet the extent of his knowledge past present and future is debated. 

 

Also we musnt confuse the New Testament with what the Muslims believe to be Injeel which is Hz Isa's (as) revelation.

 

From the Muslim point of view The New testament is like the books on Hadith. Injeel the revelation has been lost completely

Edited by A true Sunni

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When asking these question you first have to determine what Muslim sect you are talking to. 

 

Well, he is asking on a site that calls itself SHIA-chat. So one would assume that unless otherwise specified, he wants his answers as per Shia theology.  

And yes, SR, notme is right.

 

There were also some Jews and Christians around, something I forgot to mention in my post.

 

While stats are obviously not available, my feeling is that most people were idol-worshipping non-believers. 

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(salam)

 

I do not have the citation at hand, but I remember in hadith that Muhammad (pbuh) had said he (pbuh) had thought  before Sura lqra there was something unusual about his (pbuh) life.

 

His (pbuh) going up to the cave l never saw a good description about.

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the king of all prophets was always the prophet, even before the existence of hzt adam and bibi hawa, even before there was anything he was there with god and imam ali and bibi zahra!

 

dont be fooled by this temporary world and these daily accusations !

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Ok, so it sounds like you're saying that Muhammad was most likely a believer in one God, but the only knowledge he (or anyone else in his community) would have had about Noah, Moses or Abraham would have been from the corrupted Bible that existed at the time. Is that correct?

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Ok, so it sounds like you're saying that Muhammad was most likely a believer in one God, but the only knowledge he (or anyone else in his community) would have had about Noah, Moses or Abraham would have been from the corrupted Bible that existed at the time. Is that correct?

Not exactly. Remember that Ishmael would also have carried traditions regarding the prophets who preceded him, and there were other traditions which were not included in the Bible or Torah. There is also the possibility of divine inspiration before Mohammed (as) was given his mission.

Most likely people who sought knowledge could also know what was in the Bible of that time.

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Ok, so it sounds like you're saying that Muhammad was most likely a believer in one God, but the only knowledge he (or anyone else in his community) would have had about Noah, Moses or Abraham would have been from the corrupted Bible that existed at the time. Is that correct?

 

Actually noone has said this at all. You are bringing your interpretation of events and trying to put words in peoples mouths. As i said right at the beginning first determine the sect the person who is replying to you is from. 

 

i have seen this corrupted bible/knowledge/prophet discussion elsewhere and its based on a false premise. In order to understand or pose a point/question you have to understand who you are posing it to.

 

in my earlier post i pointed out the New Testament is not Injeel so you can only discuss OT

Similarly asking what religion the Holy Prophet (pbuhahp) was is an illogical question to ask a Shia and I pointed out the reason why.

 

In order to understand you have to first have to understand the nature of the Holy Prophet (pbuhahp)

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Hi Solid Rock,

You ask a good question, “What did Muhammad believe before the revelations,” and I will give some info later, to add to what has been said.

However, I think if you read Post 241 on your previous topic, “Who said the Bible was corrupted?” --- you will see that the New Testament was the same from the early translations until now. --- I think it is time to stop talking about the Bible being corrupted because we have established that there is no mention of corruption in the Quran of the former Scriptures.

Rather, it says in Surah 5:
44 It was We (God) who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was ‘guidance and light.’ By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in surrender) to God's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of God's book, and they were witnesses thereto
--- (There are many references to say that they had the OT, the Bible of the Jews, in the time of Muhammad.)

46 And in their footsteps We (God) sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was ‘guidance and light,’ and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God.
47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
--- (This is why the Muslims can’t fault us Christians from believing the Gospel Message that was given through Jesus in the New Testament)

And notice the first part of the next verse:
48 To thee (Muhammad) We (God) sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety.
--- (This Surah was given about year 5 of the Hijrah and Muhammad received more revelations in the next 5 years, before his death.)

If this was revealed to Muhammad from God, through Gabriel, --- then there is the evidence in the Quran that the former Scriptures were from God, and were CONFIRMED AS TRUE, --- and then it says, that they WERE GUARDED IN SAFETY.

The other thing to note is that the “Injeel” means, Gospel, or “Good News” and the word 'Injeel' is used interchangeably with Gospel by the different translators, --- It says in Surah 3:
48 "And God will teach him (Jesus) the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,”

--- (But God didn’t give Jesus a book to read, but rather revealed the Wisdom to Him through His intellect. --- So I think it has been well established that there was never a book called the ‘Injeel,’ because the ‘Good news’ was the Gospel Message, which Jesus delivered verbally to the disciples.)

 

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In all times, there is a Guide on earth, a witness.  I imagine the witness/guide on earth would've informed Mohammad about the True Tawrat (Torah) and Injeel (Gospel) and inherited him that knowledge, since he knew Mohammad would be a Prophet as his duty to be a Guide to those who are worthy of that guidance.

 

 

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He and his family were Hanifis

حلفاء لله غير مشرفين به

The way of prophet Abraham peace be upon them both.

حنفاء لله غير مشركين به

There is no reason To doubt that he did not follow pagan ways. Ancient Arabian community was mosaic of pagans, deviant monotheistic sects, monotheistic individuals and families including the prophet family but not exclusive to it, Christians and Jews.

Prophet is a descendant of prophet Ishmael and prophet Ibrahim. I'm not getting the frowning over a monotheistic groups amid the pagans in ancient Arabia , the land is the land of the Abrahamic religions.

Yemen, mecca, madinah or yathrib were not Roman but they were geographically more likely to be influenced by the abrahamic religions than say Asia minor.

The guide today is imam Mahdi. He is not apparent but his existence and significance should lead the seeker.

Edited by Chaotic Muslem

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This is all new knowledge to me. So Shias believe in an Imam that has hidden himself for 1400 years! Is he a human, and has he spoken to you?

How do we know that Muhammed was born a monotheist?

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This is all new knowledge to me. So Shias believe in an Imam that has hidden himself for 1400 years! Is he a human, and has he spoken to you?

How do we know that Muhammed was born a monotheist?

 

Interesting i was criticised earlier for pointing out that it is important to differentiate what sect you are and highlighted the different beliefs of sects. Looks like i wasnt that far from reality.

 

Also interesting that you didnt read the thread since this was answered in the first few posts.post no.4

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Hi Chaotic Muslim,

Quote from Post 13:
He and his family were Hanifis
حلفاء لله غير مشرفين به
The way of prophet Abraham peace be upon them both.

Response: --- It verifies this in the Introduction to The Pickthall Translation that I have.
Quote: The Meccans claimed their descent from Abraham through Ishmael, and tradition states that their temple, the Kabah had been built by Abraham for the worship of One God. It was still called the House of Allah but the chief objects of worship were many idols which were called ‘daughters of Allah,’ and intercessors. The few who felt disgust at this idolatry, which had prevailed for centuries, longed for the religion of Abraham and tried to find out what had been its teaching. Such seekers of the truth were called ‘Hunafa’ (Sing Hanif), a word originally meaning “Those who turn away (from the existing idol worship), but coming in the end to have the sense of ‘upright,’ or, ‘by nature upright,’ because such persons held the way of truth to be ‘right conduct.’ These Hunafa did not form a community. They were the ‘agnostics’ of their day, each seeking truth by the light of his own inner consciousness. --- Muhammad, son of Abdullah, became one of these. --- End of quote.

He was employed by a wealthy widow, Khadijah, as a trader, and transacted the business so well, and so excellent was the report of his behavior, that he gained the name, Al-Amin, ‘the trustworthy.’ --- Though she was 15 years older than him, they were married. --- Khadijah was a Christian.

After Muhammad received the call, through the vision of Gabriel, he was reluctant to respond at first, but she encouraged him.
Quote: “On their return to Mecca she took him to her cousin Waraqa ibn Naufal, a very old man who ‘knew the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians’ who declared his belief that the messenger had come to Muhammad, and that he was chosen as the Prophet of his people."

So Muhammad had Christian influence, and there is no mention of how many times he might have visited this cousin.
--- The early biographers tell how his wife Khadijah “tried the spirit” which came to him and proved it to be good.
--- (She may have used this test, used by Christians in 1 John 4:
1 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.")

Surah 19 was one of the first Surahs that was well known to the people because it happened about the fourth year of Muhammad’s teaching, when the small group of Muslims were persecuted severely in Mecca, so:
Quote: “The Prophet advised all who could possibly contrive to do so to emigrate to a Christian country, Abyssinia.” --- When the Negus (king) asked what they believed, the Prophet’s cousin, Ja’far ibn Abi Talib quoted the first part of Surah 19, which begins with the miraculous birth of John the Baptist, and the Virgin Birth of Jesus.

 

 

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As for waraqa, I think we Shia tell it's story a bit differently.

 

There are lots of stories quoted by people that are merely one of many versions.

 

People rely on their sources blissfully unaware of the problems in the study of Islam,  

 

According to the version I am familiar with, Waraqa may have been a Christian but Lady Khadija was certainly not. 

Edited by baqar

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Hi Chaotic Muslim,

Quote from Post 13:

He and his family were Hanifis

Your statement was true, but it doesn't give any details of what Muhammad believed before, so I quoted from the introduction to the Pickthall translation of the Quran that I have.

How many would know what 'Hanifis' believed from the name?

I am not sure if all Pickthall translations have the long introduction and history of Muhammad, but I have used this same information before on Shiachat.

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HANIF

Encyclopaedia of Ismailism by Mumtaz Ali Tajddin

"The word hanif (pl. hunafa) is derived from hanf, meaning an inclination in the forepart of the foot or inversion of the foot. A person having this distortion of the foot is called ahnaf. The singular word hanif occurs 10 times in the Koran (2:135, 3:67, 95; 4:125, 6:79, 161; 10:105, 16:120,123, 30:30), and the plural hunafa two times (22:31, 98:5). It occurs once as a synonym of muslim (3:67) and also in juxtaposition with the verb aslama (4:125). The exegetes of the Koran say that hanif in the age of ignorance signified an Arab adhering to the religion of Abraham and that title was also claimed by idolaters who only observed certain rites of that religion, such as pilgrimage to Mecca and circumcision. The verb tahannuf means pure exercise of religion in the pagan period.

The word hanif is used in the Koran to describe one who adheres to pristine monotheism. It is a descriptive name in the Koran for Abraham, and for those before Islam who by the purity and uprightness of their nature did not succumb to paganism and polytheism. The hunafa between Abraham and the time of the Prophet were thus the faithful representatives of the Abrahamic tradition during the age of ignorance.

The Koranic prototype of the ideal hanif is Abraham: "Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, rather he was a hanif" (3:67). Thus, the hanifiyah was the faith of Abraham. Hanif is therefore one inclining to a right state or tendency. The word is often mentioned in connection not only with the name of Abraham, but the Prophet and his followers are also enjoined to be hanif. It seems to signify firmness in sticking to the right state, and has reference to the inclining to error on the part of both the Jews and the Christians: "Say: Nay (we follow) the religion of Abraham, the hanif (upright), and he was not one of the polytheists" (2:135), "And who has a better religion than he who submits himself entirely to God? And he is the doer of good and follows the faith of Abraham, the upright (hanif), and God took Abraham as a friend" (4:125), "Surely Abraham was an exemplar, obedient to God, upright (hanif), and he was not of the polytheists" (16:120), and "Say: God has spoken the truth, therefore follow the religion of Abraham, the upright (hanif), and he was not one of the polytheists" (3:95). The Koranic Prophet too, is required to become a hanif by setting his face upright towards the true religion (10:105), and the same demand is also imposed on the rest of the people (22:31, 98:5).

Among the famous seekers of the Abrahamic hanifi religion, who are said to have lived in pre-Islamic Mecca were Waraqa bin Naufal, Ubaidulla bin Jahsh, Uthman bin al-Huwayrith and Zaid bin Amr bin Nufayl, Umayya bin Abi Salt, Quss bin Sa'idah, etc.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/10360

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Hi Chaotic Muslim,

Thank you, that is very informative. --- I see that Waraqa bin Naufal, was listed as a true follower of Abraham, ‘of the Abrahamic hanifi religion.’

The word ‘hanif’ is not in most English translations, but I see it in 2, most versions say:

Surah 3:67 Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man who had surrendered (to Allah), and he was not of the idolaters.

Also this is said about his faith in God:

2:130 And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: And he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.

132 The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).

If Waraqa bin Naufal followed Abraham into the New Testament, --- because it said he ‘knew the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians,’ --- he would find this in Galatians (It said he received revelations from God from the Priest and King, Melchizedek in Genesis), and it says, ‘The Gospel was preached to him’ in this verse in Galatians 3:

6 Just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”

9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

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