Jump to content
Say: I AM

Pursuing Admission To Isma'ili Tariqa—Questions?

Recommended Posts

I wish I had time to study Ismailism more deeply but there is an ocean of information and I don't even know where to start.

 

Can you recommend an online course or something which would serve as a good foindation to undertanding the Ismaili path?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But what is the point of religion if the resurrection has already occured? Isnt the resurrection the culmination of creation?

Humbly and with utmost respect,

Religion is religion and the concept of posthumorous resurrection does not change what religion is, and that is Tawhid, or nondualism. Everything is one, undivided.

Think about it, if everything was one then statements like "Wherever you turn there is the Face of Allah..." and "He is closer to you than your jugular..." would mean just that. Language is a barrier which captures and shapes our reality. For example, in English it is popularly said, "I came into this world..." when "I came out of this world" would be more appropriate, as in "God it was Who caused you to sprout from the earth...." Language traps us into breaking things down for examination so that we can talk about it, and by doing so we lose the perspective that everything is truly nondual.

The concept of posthumous resurrection taken from a literal reading of the Qur'an seems to only further the illusion of an ego, the image we have of ourselves, because we end up identifying ourselves as somehow apart from everything else. In that way a person then makes themself equal to Allah--shirk. There is no equal. The idea of embodiment after death makes me think that one is trying to hold on to life, that their efforts are merely out of selfishness.

The Qur'anic resurrection can only mean resurrection of the mind, the way we think, because the mind takes in and forms our reality. And by coming back again to when we were babies, to when we knew not ourselves nor language to break things up will we be resurrected.

In my opinion the Qur'an is itself the Day of Judgment and its verdict is dependant upon realization of Tawhid. If a person adheres to a physical religion they will expect a physical afterlife, and they'll wait for death to find out if they guessed right. There is no certainty beyond fake certainty that physical resurrection exists. But if a person adheres to a spiritual resurrection they will expect a spiritual afterlife, if any at all, and they'll find salvation in this life and the next.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This article presents Seven Proofs for the Succession of Isma'il ibn Ja'far and his descendants to the Imamat

 

"Our branch of Shia Islam, in that particular generation of the family, accepted the legitimacy of the eldest son, Isma‘il, as being the appointed Imam to succeed and that is why they are known as Ismailis."
- Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni Aga Khan IV
(Forty-Ninth Hereditary Imam of the Shi‘i Isma‘ili Muslims)

 

Read the full article here: http://ismailignosis.com/2014/10/02/who-succeeded-imam-jafar-al-sadiq-seven-proofs-for-the-imamat-of-imam-ismail-ibn-jafar/


The Prophet Muhammad owned race horses - it is mentioned in several hadiths too.

 

Islam does not demand that its Imam live an ascetic monkish lifestyle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

This article presents Seven Proofs for the Succession of Isma'il ibn Ja'far and his descendants to the Imamat

 

"Our branch of Shia Islam, in that particular generation of the family, accepted the legitimacy of the eldest son, Isma‘il, as being the appointed Imam to succeed and that is why they are known as Ismailis."

- Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni Aga Khan IV

(Forty-Ninth Hereditary Imam of the Shi‘i Isma‘ili Muslims)

 

Read the full article here: http://ismailignosis.com/2014/10/02/who-succeeded-imam-jafar-al-sadiq-seven-proofs-for-the-imamat-of-imam-ismail-ibn-jafar/

The Prophet Muhammad owned race horses - it is mentioned in several hadiths too.

 

Islam does not demand that its Imam live an ascetic monkish lifestyle.

 

 

I bet a DNA test will prove that the Aga Khan is not even a descendant of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

 

But of course the impostor that is the Aga Khan would never submit to a DNA test.

 

The acts of worship of the Nizari Ismailis (practiced inside their JKs) are enough to show that the Aga Khan is an impostor. Their acts of worship have more shirk and heresy in them than that of the Christians with Prophet Isa (AS) and their rites such as Eucharist. Such acts of worship (as the Ismailis have) could never have anything to do with Islam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you may be right, as it seems probably possible, but that means nothing with regards to the qualities of the Imam. It doesn't matter if the Imam of the time descends from the Holy Prophet, what matters is that he believes he descends from him.

“Or were you witnesses when death came to Jacob?”

In no way can Aga Khan prove his lineage. What the Imam of the time can prove however is that he acts in accordance with Islamic principles.

“Abraham said: ‘And also my descendants?’

God said: ‘Evildoers shall not enjoy My covenant.”

In my opinion, the mind of the Imam is the true treasure of mankind. The Holy Prophet did something not yet done and that was to give birth to and nurturing a beneficial conscience. From the time of birth the Aga Khan was told about his circumstance in life, who he was, and how he might someday come to be. This no doubt shaped his psyche. It was these factors and ones like them which formed a unique reality. Who else is revered as Imam in our time? It is because of the attitudes of his people that the Aga Khan knows who he is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you may be right, as it seems probably possible, but that means nothing with regards to the qualities of the Imam. It doesn't matter if the Imam of the time descends from the Holy Prophet, what matters is that he believes he descends from him.

“Or were you witnesses when death came to Jacob?”

In no way can Aga Khan prove his lineage. What the Imam of the time can prove however is that he acts in accordance with Islamic principles.

“Abraham said: ‘And also my descendants?’

God said: ‘Evildoers shall not enjoy My covenant.”

In my opinion, the mind of the Imam is the true treasure of mankind. The Holy Prophet did something not yet done and that was to give birth to and nurturing a beneficial conscience. From the time of birth the Aga Khan was told about his circumstance in life, who he was, and how he might someday come to be. This no doubt shaped his psyche. It was these factors and ones like them which formed a unique reality. Who else is revered as Imam in our time? It is because of the attitudes of his people that the Aga Khan knows who he is.

 

 

I think one off-putting issue is the extreme and often far-fetched esoteric conclusions the Ismailis have reached. Additionally, a key issue is the manner in which the Imam operates. With all due respect, it doesnt look like he is attempting to establish the Law of God, nor abide by it himself. Hard to imagine Imam `Ali [a] chilling on cruises with women in bakinis [na'udhubillah] like the Agha Khan appears to have done. 

 

In regards to the Sharia, historically speaking, the Prophet and the early Imams stressed the importance of obeying the Law [sharia of Muhammad (sawa)] and this proving pivitol in our aspiration for Salvation. Yet, and I mean no disrespect, but it seems the current Ismailis and the Agha Khan have abandoned this tradition and no longer uphold the Sharia of Muhammad like the earlier Imams. 

 

Why do Ismaili women not dress in accordance with the Islamic dress code, which happens to be agreed upon by every single legal school amongst both the Shii and Sunni branches. Not sure how this ijma that even the previous Imams [as] upheld can just be overturned by later Ismaili Imams. Please explain this.

 

The 5 daily prayers, unless I'm mistaken, seem to have been abandoned, at least in the form of the Prophet's sunnah. 

 

 

Do you believe in a physical resurrection? What is Yawm al-Qiyama in Ismailism? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think one off-putting issue is the extreme and often far-fetched esoteric conclusions the Ismailis have reached. Additionally, a key issue is the manner in which the Imam operates. With all due respect, it doesnt look like he is attempting to establish the Law of God, nor abide by it himself. Hard to imagine Imam `Ali [a] chilling on cruises with women in bakinis [na'udhubillah] like the Agha Khan appears to have done. 

 

In regards to the Sharia, historically speaking, the Prophet and the early Imams stressed the importance of obeying the Law [sharia of Muhammad Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå] and this proving pivitol in our aspiration for Salvation. Yet, and I mean no disrespect, but it seems the current Ismailis and the Agha Khan have abandoned this tradition and no longer uphold the Sharia of Muhammad like the earlier Imams. 

 

Why do Ismaili women not dress in accordance with the Islamic dress code, which happens to be agreed upon by every single legal school amongst both the Shii and Sunni branches. Not sure how this ijma that even the previous Imams [as] upheld can just be overturned by later Ismaili Imams. Please explain this.

 

The 5 daily prayers, unless I'm mistaken, seem to have been abandoned, at least in the form of the Prophet's sunnah. 

 

 

Do you believe in a physical resurrection? What is Yawm al-Qiyama in Ismailism?

Do you like the old time religion?

Do you like having a system of beliefs and values that never change?

Doesn't a boy grow into an old man and yet remain the same man?

What is religion if it doesn't change with us?

The only thing constant in religion is the Imam of the time. And for that reason the religion grows, it burgeons. The Imam of the time is the catalyst within religion, a necessity to fulfill the covenant between believer and imam.

“To you has come a messenger, from among your number,

Aggrieved by the hardship you suffer,

Concerned for you,

Tender and compassionate towards the believers.”

This relationship is made into a covenant which the Ismaili imams follow in context with the above verse.

“O believers, obey God and obey the Prophet and those set in authority over you.”

“O believers, do not betray God and His Messenger, nor betray your undertakings knowingly.”

“Those who pay you homage are in fact paying homage to God – the hand of God rests above their own.”

Every Imam is Ali, and every Ali is the Mahdi. Do not forget the essence of religion:

“O Messenger, convey what has been revealed to you from your Lord. If you do not, you will not have passed on His message.”

“All things have We tallied in a Manifest Record (imamin mubeen).”

In a theatrical way I'll say to the point of resurrection, what does resurrection matter when heaven is with the Imam? Don't you see the angels in great delight nor hear their symphonies? God is greater, I am in heaven!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The more I read this thread the more I feel that is a proselytysing spam thread.

He claims to have been a 12er who has been inspired to convert to Ismailiism.

In order to square the circle he has adopted a couple of unique beliefs that are not to be found in 12er doctrine or Ismaili doctrine.

Firstly that all the 12 Imams had some sort of legitimacy as guides. (paraphrasing) 

Secondly and more seriously that his 'current Imam' (Agha Khan) does not have to be a descendant of the Holy Prophet (pbuhahp), he just has to believe he is.

You may be aware of the circles of belief (my interpretation) of Ismailiism. After study and acceptance you are admitted into ever inner circles where more and more of the truth is revealed to you.

So in the outer circle you are all things to all men. The Inner circles are where you are taught to reject your former beliefs and blindly follow others.

Standard ensnarement and brainwash techniques 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because before, Alevis were mostly known as Sufi Turk during the 1200s, than 1500s kizilbash, and since 1800s and 1900s we are known as Alevis

Due to prosecution of the ottomans and kurds, Alevis were exiled and assimilated in various forms, some were far apart from each other, this is why there is still similarities but some have defined theirselves as another I. E ismailies etc

If you look back they have the same ancestor tree that goes back to horasan 

 

Seyh Ahmet and Seyh Hasan 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/3/2016 at 11:57 PM, A true Sunni said:

The more I read this thread the more I feel that is a proselytysing spam thread.

He claims to have been a 12er who has been inspired to convert to Ismailiism.

In order to square the circle he has adopted a couple of unique beliefs that are not to be found in 12er doctrine or Ismaili doctrine.

Firstly that all the 12 Imams had some sort of legitimacy as guides. (paraphrasing) 

Secondly and more seriously that his 'current Imam' (Agha Khan) does not have to be a descendant of the Holy Prophet (pbuhahp), he just has to believe he is.

You may be aware of the circles of belief (my interpretation) of Ismailiism. After study and acceptance you are admitted into ever inner circles where more and more of the truth is revealed to you.

So in the outer circle you are all things to all men. The Inner circles are where you are taught to reject your former beliefs and blindly follow others.

Standard ensnarement and brainwash techniques 

Kinda like the ones Papa Khomeini used, amirite? ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

12er Shia havent this concentric circles of secrecy, with only the adept allowed into the inner secrets. Not sure what you are referring to

I meant standard ensnarement and brainwash techniques.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, A true Sunni said:

All religions employ methods or elements of brainwashing. 

You're opinion I guess.

But why blame the Aga Khan for this? I admit that I am very, very uneasy with just how insanely rich he is while some of his people remain poor. And some of his more excessive lifestyle choices.

But he's a decent guy. He contributes to society with his absolutely massive charities and his championing of a peaceful form of Islam. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recent Posts on ShiaChat!

    • I posted but dc. So i forget what i explained. However, you should learn the manner/behavior of Imam Ahlul Bayt a.s. upon receiving bad word.
    • بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم Despite the repeated use of the phrase “there is no proof or evidence for the existence of God,” I would imagine most atheists, and indeed most people, are unaware that there is in fact a technical difference between evidence and proof. Fittingly, the distinction between proof and evidence was initially taught to me in an introductory evolutionary biology course by an ardent atheist professor during my first year of university. My professor used this distinction to justify why she would not be receiving objections to evolution in her class. (Literally, she said that we were not allowed to question evolution or present counter evidence during the lecture, and that she would not entertain it during her office hours.) It was the most bizarre and dogmatic moment I had in my entire education, and I say this as someone who was blessed to study theology in a seminary environment for a year. Contrary to popular opinion, the seminaries are far less dogmatic when it comes to foundational beliefs, as they permit questioning the existence of God and raising objections to the proofs offered. She argued that evolution was based upon good evidence, but could never attain the status of complete certainty. It was a probabilistic argument, like virtually all of science, rather than a demonstration, as in the case of mathematical proofs (and, as we shall see, metaphysical arguments.) I still vividly remember the slide used to showcase an example of rational certainty – it was that of a triangle with some lines and an accompanying trigonometric proof. Because evolution (along with all empirical science) could never attain 100% rational certainty, she argued that it was always possible to be a skeptic, to raise objections about inductive inferences which are probabilistic at best, or to posit alternative explanations that could explain the data, no matter how improbable. Oh the irony. If scientific atheists only applied their standards consistently, they would either deny science or accept God. We will see why more clearly later on when we explore the evidence for the existence of God. But there is neither here nor there. For now, what I want to do is just go over some basic concepts in reason in order to set the table for the coming arguments...

      This article was originally published on themuslimtheist.com. Click here to continue reading.
    • بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم As we stated earlier, before we can answer the question “how can I know that God exists?” we must first ask the question “how do I know anything at all.” There are multiple ways that the intellect comes to know, and these modalities (or ways) of knowing are arranged hierarchically. I will go from the lowest form of knowledge to the highest – though this may seem unintuitive to the modern mind, which has been conditioned to see certainty as ordered in precisely the opposite direction. I will sort out these modern confusions as we proceed upon each level, inshaAllah. The lowest form of knowing, and the least certain is that of sense perception. “Huh? But I thought you had to see it to believe it?” you may ask. Ah, but you see sense perception deceives us all the time. We readily admit that. Sometimes we see things that aren’t really there, and sometimes what we see does not reflect reality. For instance, we perceive the earth as being flat, the sun as setting upon the horizon, the stars as being small, and if I were to put my finger in a glass of water it would appear to break due to the refraction of light. Your eyes deceive you Take a look at this clip around 12:30 where Dawkins himself says that if he were to see a direct sign of God – the heavens opening up and seeing the angels – he would still disbelieve in God. Instead, he would find it more probable that he were hallucinating, that David Blaine or some magician were playing a trick on him, or that aliens with some advanced technology could manipulate reality to make him think he were seeing what he were seeing. You can hear his own words here....

      This article was originally published on themuslimtheist.com. Click here to continue reading.
    • @Ali Hassan Hussain Mutah or marriage is not a solution to getting rid of masturbation addiction. Unfortunately many Muslims are uneducated in this sense and feel that it is a magical solution. As I said, masturbation is a behavioural addiction and it does not depend on you being married or not. Your brain is wired in a certain way (although you can fix it). There are numerous cases of Muslim/non-Muslim men who are addicted to masturbation even when they are married. Having a mindset that "marriage will solve my problem" is horrible. Guys who say this have no will power to get their addiction sorted. I feel sorry for girls who have to put up with those guys. Marriage is a way to keep you safe from masturbation to start with - so you don't develop an addiction. It can help you manage addiction but is not the ultimate solution. I'm just saying this to give you a very honest advice, one which very few people will give you.  Focus on building healthy habits. You need to have enough will power to say "no" when it comes to masturbation. Learn to hold yourself accountable. No matter how strong your desires are - it is possible to say no. Join an online community with other people who also have similar problems, to educate yourself on the potential consequences. In addition, you need to tell someone who you trust, be he a psychologist, stranger, friend or anyone. Keeping this addiction to yourself is part of the problem. Inshallah you can get rid of this addiction. Just man up and hold yourself accountable.   
    • No problem, but you have a history of being divisive yourself. I don't know what you think that you have a right to judge anybody else in this thread.  ^ This is what you really wanted to say, no point in beating around the bush and acting polite. P.S. I don't see any racism either, so I don't know what you are talking about. Another one of your pot-stirring posts as usual.
×