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Replying To Shirk-Like Statements

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Hello fellow Muslim brothers and sisters. Today I will try to reply to Shirk accusations against Shia. My source will be Syed Ammar Nakshawani.

Do Shia's worship graves? When Shi'ites go to Karbala or any other Holy Mosque for that matter, are we committing Shirk? And is holding by a shrine and asking help a Polythiestic act?

Let's find out -

Firstly, when we visit our Imams' graves, we do not have the intention to worship those graves, but we are going there to honor great personalities who have layed our foundation and heritage. Many of our Shafi'i brothers do that aswell, in Egypt the grave of Sayeda Zainab is still honored by our Shafi'i brothers, ofcourse they do not beat themselves or do Shia rituals, but they do honor it and do Dua, Salat etc... next to it. Other examples are Sayeda Nafissa grandaughter of Imam Hasan AS. Some of the best literature on grave honoring made by our Shafi'i brothers, example; شفاء السقام, which is one of the great pieces of literature ever created by our Shafi'i brothers. Also, our Sufi brothers come and honor Abdul Qadir al Gailani, they come to honor him in Iraq. And some of our Hanafi brothers also come to Iraq to honor Abu Hanifa. (Note* There is only a bridge difference between his grave and Imam Jawad and Imam Kazim's (PBUH both) grave. So not every other Islamic School condemns the veneration of the grave. But many ofcourse ask us about our veneration of the grave, do have a hatred towards doing so eg. Wahabi and Salafi schools. As in the Wahabis' in the Hijaz have a particular hatred towards the veneration of a grave.. in the way they deal with the Hujaj. And this is not only against Shia, as in you find that some Sunni brother from Egypt or Turket has come to honor the great grave of the Prophet, and whilst his standing there full of passion, up comes a man with a long beard that will yell at him "Yallah Go".

So the question here arises, are we going against Allah's commands and the Quran by doing what we do? When we stand by a grave of one if our Imams, are we committing Shirk? Let's see through the analyisis -

1 - Surah 6 Verse 84 says to the Prophet "Do not pray by them nor should you pray alongside there graves"

Does this Holy Verse indicate that we should stop what we are doing?

2 - Surah 72 Verse 18 says "The Mosque's are for Allah, so do not call besides Allah"

Are we (Especially in Karbala) calling someone besides Allah?

3 - Where in the Quran does Allah mention veneration to a certain group of people by there nation?

4 - Allah SWT or Ahlulbayt, did they tell people to not stand by there graves when they die? And if they did when was this?

5 - And when did our Prophet PBUH say to go and vist the graves, and what was the reason?

6 - Sayeda Fatima and Imam Ali (PBU both), what was there behavior with the graves? And would they do and visit other graves? And what is the famous incident when Imam Ali went to Kufa and explained what exactly happens to the people who are under the ground?

7 - And why did the Prophet' build Jannat Ul Baqi?

8 - Who in Islamic history were denied having a burial which a good human deserves.

Let's examine this and disect it.

Arguably one if the most used verses by the Wahabi school to attack those who honor graves is Surah 9,Verse 84. If you are debating a Wahabi, than be prepared to get bombarded by verses, and this is why everyone should read the Quran alot of times. You may be someone who knows how to play with words, but when you get asked by the Quran, who can only reply by using the Quran. A problem within modern Shia is that we have neglected the Quran, but other schools are very familiar with it. And Wallah it is a shame, because we call ourselves followers of Ahlulbayt, but Ahlulbayt were always stressing about the Quran.

1 - Allah told the Prophet that standing beside a grave is forbidden. Which incident was this? This was relieved to the Prophet about standing beside the grave of Abdullah ibn Ubay. Before Rasulullah reached Medina, the Oas and the Khazraj were the 2 main tribes in Medina, and they had major problems with eachother over petty issues, like; why did you stare at my sheep? And such issues.So the Prophet came towards these people, when he came to them, he saw that The Oas and the Khazraj needed uniting. And one of the most famous personalities at that time was Abdullah Ibn Ubay, and he was very much revered. So when the Prophet came to Medina, he noticed that people are now revering Muhammad and not him anymore.So the envy begins to burn him, and he was not happy with what Rasulallah was doing. So he started to tell everybody that he is the man to go to if they want anything of Rasulallah. So people started coming to him and he started manipulating word. Infront of people he would be like "La Illaha Illalah' Muhammad Rasulallah", privately he was thinking on how to break the Ummah of Muhammad (PBUH). This is why he kept telling people different orders in the midst of war etc... he also used to have deals with the Jews. So the question here arises, is the Prophet allowed to judge the man by his heart or his apparent? Only Allah (SWT) is allowed to judge on what is in the heart, the Prophet cannot. The Prophet of Allah is could have easily went up to him and told him "your plotting against me", but Muhammad (PBUH and his family) is a man of mercy, but his Ummah has lost it's mercy. Now once this Abdullah Ibn Ubay died, his son Abdullah (Same name) came upto the Prophet (BTW this Hadith will be from Bukhari) He said "Ya Rasulallah my father has died" (BTW Abdullah ibn Abdullah was religious) "Ya Rasulallah, I beg of you, can I take your shirt and enshrowed my father's body with it?" Rasulallah said "It's my honor, here take the shirt". So than he asked the Prophet "Do you mind leading the prayers for my father?" The Prophet said "I will lead the prayers dor your father" At this moment Bukhari says the following "When the prophet wanted to lead the prayers for the father, Umar Ibn Khattab comes and pulls the shirt of Rasulallah, so the Prophet said "What is it?" Umar says "Do you not know the Quran says you can't pray for these people?" (He quoted Surah 9 verse 80 "Whether you ask for forgiveness or you don't, even if you ask 70 times, Allah will not forgive them" Sometimes you wonder who the Quran actually came down to, if a person thinks he can debate the man who the book was given to. How can you actually pull th Prophet back? Wow... but anyways The Prophet replied "He said Allah has given me the option to do Istighfar more than 70 times for him" Umar says "Sorry". (BTW this narration is not narrated word by word, but it is similar using similar words, you can find it) After the Prophet prayed, the verse came down now."Do not pray on any of them who have died, nor should you stand by there graves.Because they disbelieved in Allah and his Prophet and died as people of sin" (ALL BUKHARI) Now re-read the description and the criteria given "Because they disbelieved in Allah and his Prophet, and died as people of sin". Which of the Shia Imam's does this apply to? Did Ali (AS) disbelieve in Allah? Hmm. By that logic it means I am allowed to pray and stand by someone who believed in the Allah and his Prophet.

2 - Surah 17 Verse 18 says "The mosques are for Allah, do not call on anyone besides Allah" Us Shia say we agree with this,100%. Now the Wahabi's will say how do you agree with this when you do it? This was revealed to the Jews and Christians who started putting there Saints besides God,and they started praying to thoss Saints instead of Allah. Now this never happens in a Shia Mosque, we do not pray to the Imams, but we pray to God. We are not calling upon there names in Salat or Dua, we are not saying Ya Ali grant us Paradise like what the Christians say to there Saints, when we say Ya Ali we are saying "O Ali" we are not saying this in the meaning of Ali is God or calling him instead of Allah to grant us Paradise. When we say Ya Ali we are remembering if what oppression he suffered etc...

3 - Where in the Quran does Allah not condemn people who venerate graves, but in fact praises them. The people of Kahf (Cave). Ayotallah Ja'afar Subhani on the issue of Ashab al Kahf says that in the Quran Ashab al Kahf had been asleep for 300 odd years, they woke up and they realised there time has gone, so they asked Allah to let them fall asleep (same say pass away) till the day of Judgement. When they went back to the cave, 2 groups of people followed them to there cave. So they said "The polythiests said build a shrine on them" the monotheists who had won said "build a Mosque over them so we remember Allah". When we visit Imam Ali's shrine we remember Allah because we know that this man is a man who protected Allah's words.

4 - Was there a time in Mecca where the Prophet told people to stop going to graves? Yes there was. Why? Because when these people went to the grave yard they always pointed at a section and said "I have 10 members of my family buried there", the other would reply "I have 15..." and so on. It became like a competition. This is why the verse was revealed "Alhakum al takathur. Hata zortom al Maqabir" "Your numbers have overtaken you when you go and visit the graves". The graveyard is meant to be a place to remember Allah. So Prophet did forbid them for a period. The Prophet told people to go to visit the graves as it softens pople's hearts and reminds them where they will be... so it reminds them to do good. The Prophet told people to visit and honor the grave of his Uncle Hamza (AS), today go there and they will ask you to go.

6 - Fatima (AS) every Thursday would go and visit her Uncle Hamza. When we are asking Allah to give us something we usually start with "Allahuma ini asalluka wa itawajahu ilaik" We ask Allah but through Ahlulbayt, they are the Wasilla. Ali (AS) used to have a servant called Habal Araan. Habal Arran narrates that he and Ali used to the Jabana in Kufa (Jabana is a graveyard in Kufa). So Ali was there just standing there and oraying for hours. So he told Ali that shouldn't they go home by now? And than he said "Or we can stay but lets sit on my cloak" So Ali replied "No we will disturb the believers" Habal said "Which believers?",Ali replied "O Hala if you can see what I see..." So when somebody is dead, his soul is still alive. The Quran says that those who died for Allah are still alive.

7 - The Prophet built Jannat Al Baqi so the graves of Muslim personalities were honored. Not only Shia Imams are in Jannat Al Baqi, Imam Malik for instance is buried there. The Prophet built the place so great personalities in Islam are honored, when I stand by Imam Al Hasan (AS) I want to have Imam al Hasan's patience for Allah! When I go next to Imam Zain Zainul Abideen so I can have Zainul Abideen's sacrifice to sacrfice for Allah! And so on... my Ziyara Dua proves I don't worship him. In all our Imam Dua's it says "Ash'hadu anaka aqamta al salat, wa atayt, wa amarta bill ma'ruf, wa nahaita 3an al munkar, WA ATA3TA Allah! Hata Atak Al Yaqin" I swear you established Salat, you gave Zakat, you enjoyed the good, you forbid the evil, AND YOU OBEYED Allah" How am I doing Shirk when I am saying the man buried there OBEYED Allah!

7 - Fatima Al Zahra was never given a burial she deserved because of the problems she had with the Caliph at that time. Zayd, the son of Zainul Abideen was burn and thrown into a river, Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr, they burnt him with a donkey.

Thanks.

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Well done for taking the time to transcribe all that, but unfortunately the level of argumentation is not very good, as usual in Ammar Nakshawani lectures.

 

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Firstly, when we visit our Imams' graves, we do not have the intention to worship those graves, but we are going there to honor great personalities who have layed our foundation and heritage.

The word worship would need to be defined first of all. It is useless to refute an accusation by saying that since we don't accept that this is what we do, then we can't be doing it. Certainly, what goes on at those shrines would fall under certain definitions of worship in the English language. However it is not an easy word to define, which is why some time should be spent on this, rather than just brushing it off.

 

Additionally, it is quite clear that many people go to the shrine in order to seek blessings or to have their wishes fulfilled, so it is being dishonest to state that this is simply about going to honour great personalities.

 

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Arguably one if the most used verses by the Wahabi school to attack those who honor graves is Surah 9,Verse 84.

Really? I can't say I've ever seen this verse used much. However, even if it is, it is so easily refuted that I don't think it merits having such a large portion of the lecture devoted to it. Better to just refute it quickly and move on to the better arguments. Sadly, it's a common tactic to knock down weak arguments (whether real or imagined), while leaving the stronger ones, and giving the impression of winning the debate.

 

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A problem within modern Shia is that we have neglected the Quran, but other schools are very familiar with it. And Wallah it is a shame, because we call ourselves followers of Ahlulbayt, but Ahlulbayt were always stressing about the Quran.

I agree with him on this.

 

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Allah told the Prophet that standing beside a grave is forbidden. Which incident was this?

Wahhabis don't believe standing besides graves are forbidden, so I don't understand why he spent so long on this. Anyway, here is some stuff on visiting graves from a Salafi website:

 

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Visiting graves is mustahabb for men, because according to the hadeeth of Buraydah ibn al-Husayb, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I used to forbid you to visit graves, but now visit them.” (Narrated by Muslim, 977). According to another report, “… for they will remind you of the Hereafter.” (Narrated by Ahmad, 1240; Ibn Maajah, 1569; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh ibn Maajah). 

When visiting the graves it is mustahabb to greet the occupants of the graves with salaam and to make du’aa’ for them saying the words that the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to teach his companions.

 

...

 

If a person says “al-salaamu ‘alayum” when visiting graves, and says, “Al-salaamu ‘alayka ya Rasool-Allaah” when visiting the grave of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), this is not considered to be shirk, because it is not a prayer to the dead or seeking their help.

http://islamqa.info/en/34561

 

So we can see here that the issue Wahhabis have with what happens at graves is to do with praying to the person inside the grave or seeking their help. Amazingly, Ammar Nakshawani doesn't address this in his whole lecture (unless we count his false statement that nobody does this)! It really makes me wonder what kind of academic training he received that he thinks this is an acceptable way to 'disect' an opponent's position.

 

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2 - Surah 17 Verse 18 says "The mosques are for Allah, do not call on anyone besides Allah" Us Shia say we agree with this,100%. Now the Wahabi's will say how do you agree with this when you do it? This was revealed to the Jews and Christians who started putting there Saints besides God,and they started praying to thoss Saints instead of Allah. Now this never happens in a Shia Mosque, we do not pray to the Imams, but we pray to God. We are not calling upon there names in Salat or Dua, we are not saying Ya Ali grant us Paradise like what the Christians say to there Saints, when we say Ya Ali we are saying "O Ali" we are not saying this in the meaning of Ali is God or calling him instead of Allah to grant us Paradise. When we say Ya Ali we are remembering if what oppression he suffered etc...

Ammar Nakshawani in taqiyya mode again, along the lines of when he claimed that no marja allows Shias to beat themselves with chains or hit themselves with swords, etc.

 

Everyone knows many Shias make duas to the Imams, whether at their graves or not. Ironically, by agreeing to the meaning of the verse he has just massively shot himself in the foot. I mean, he should have at least tried to play the 'intercession' card, and how Shias only appear to be praying to them, but in reality are praying to Allah, etc. That would still be dishonest, but at least you don't end up shooting yourself in the foot. Plenty of Shias openly, and with no sense of doing anything wrong, say 'Ya Ali, grant me x, y, z'. He knows it just as well as everyone else. I can only imagine there were a few confused people in the room at this point.

 

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3 - Where in the Quran does Allah not condemn people who venerate graves, but in fact praises them. The people of Kahf (Cave).

I think he's reading a little too much into the story here.

And thus did We make (men) to get knowledge of them that they might know that Allah's promise is true and that as for the hour there is no doubt about it. When they disputed among themselves about their affair and said: Erect an edifice over them-- their Lord best knows them. Those who prevailed in their affair said: We will certainly raise a masjid over them. [Qur'an 18:22]

I don't see any praise for those who 'venerate' graves. The most you could argue here is that it is allowed, or even perhaps praised, to built a masjod over a grave, based on this verse.

 

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4 - Was there a time in Mecca where the Prophet told people to stop going to graves?

Irrelevant since I doubt even the dumbest blood-crazed Wahhabi on the planet says it is not permitted to visit graves. Once again, the issue is what people do at the graves, which Nakshawani has not even attempted to address here.

 

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6 - Fatima (as) every Thursday would go and visit her Uncle Hamza. When we are asking Allah to give us something we usually start with "Allahuma ini asalluka wa itawajahu ilaik" We ask Allah but through Ahlulbayt, they are the Wasilla. Ali (as) used to have a servant called Habal Araan. Habal Arran narrates that he and Ali used to the Jabana in Kufa (Jabana is a graveyard in Kufa). So Ali was there just standing there and oraying for hours. So he told Ali that shouldn't they go home by now? And than he said "Or we can stay but lets sit on my cloak" So Ali replied "No we will disturb the believers" Habal said "Which believers?",Ali replied "O Hala if you can see what I see..." So when somebody is dead, his soul is still alive. The Quran says that those who died for Allah are still alive.

Ok? Again, nobody has a problem with visiting or sending salams.

 

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7 - The Prophet built Jannat Al Baqi so the graves of Muslim personalities were honored. Not only Shia Imams are in Jannat Al Baqi, Imam Malik for instance is buried there. The Prophet built the place so great personalities in Islam are honored, when I stand by Imam Al Hasan (as) I want to have Imam al Hasan's patience for Allah! When I go next to Imam Zain Zainul Abideen so I can have Zainul Abideen's sacrifice to sacrfice for Allah! And so on... my Ziyara Dua proves I don't worship him. In all our Imam Dua's it says "Ash'hadu anaka aqamta al salat, wa atayt, wa amarta bill ma'ruf, wa nahaita 3an al munkar, WA ATA3TA Allah! Hata Atak Al Yaqin" I swear you established Salat, you gave Zakat, you enjoyed the good, you forbid the evil, AND YOU OBEYED Allah" How am I doing Shirk when I am saying the man buried there OBEYED Allah!

Again, no attempt to address the more controversial things people ask for, or do, at graves. He really seems fond of strawman arguments. Anyway, he seems to be under the impression that you can only worship someone who you believe is equal to God, which isn't true, even if some people would like it to be.

 

To be honest, I think this lecture was exceptionally weak, even by Nakshawani standards. In future he should make a better attempt to address the substance of the argument he is opposing, and not waste time on strawman arguments or easily refuted weak arguments.

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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Well done for taking the time to transcribe all that, but unfortunately the level of argumentation is not very good, as usual in Ammar Nakshawani lectures.

 

 

The word worship would need to be defined first of all. It is useless to refute an accusation by saying that since we don't accept that this is what we do, then we can't be doing it. Certainly, what goes on at those shrines would fall under certain definitions of worship in the English language. However it is not an easy word to define, which is why some time should be spent on this, rather than just brushing it off.

 

Additionally, it is quite clear that many people go to the shrine in order to seek blessings or to have their wishes fulfilled, so it is being dishonest to state that this is simply about going to honour great personalities.

Who said that is all we do? Ofcourse many people try to seek blessing, but in the name of Allah. Like the story of the Prophet's shirt below, Abdullah ibn Abdullah is not worshipping the shirt, otherwise the Prophet would not give him the shirt. Same thing happens in Karbala, people hang on and kiss the flags etc..

 

 

Really? I can't say I've ever seen this verse used much. However, even if it is, it is so easily refuted that I don't think it merits having such a large portion of the lecture devoted to it. Better to just refute it quickly and move on to the better arguments. Sadly, it's a common tactic to knock down weak arguments (whether real or imagined), while leaving the stronger ones, and giving the impression of winning the debate.

I agree with this.

 

 

 

I agree with him on this.

 

 

 

Wahhabis don't believe standing besides graves are forbidden, so I don't understand why he spent so long on this. Anyway, here is some stuff on visiting graves from a Salafi website:

 

 

http://islamqa.info/en/34561

Well obviously anyone can stand by a grave and do nothing. But about when it comes to doing Dua's for a long time on that grave?

 

So we can see here that the issue Wahhabis have with what happens at graves is to do with praying to the person inside the grave or seeking their help. Amazingly, Ammar Nakshawani doesn't address this in his whole lecture (unless we count his false statement that nobody does this)! It really makes me wonder what kind of academic training he received that he thinks this is an acceptable way to 'disect' an opponent's position.

 

 

 

Ammar Nakshawani in taqiyya mode again, along the lines of when he claimed that no marja allows Shias to beat themselves with chains or hit themselves with swords, etc.

He never said that.

 

Everyone knows many Shias make duas to the Imams, whether at their graves or not. Ironically, by agreeing to the meaning of the verse he has just massively shot himself in the foot. I mean, he should have at least tried to play the 'intercession' card, and how Shias only appear to be praying to them, but in reality are praying to Allah, etc. That would still be dishonest, but at least you don't end up shooting yourself in the foot. Plenty of Shias openly, and with no sense of doing anything wrong, say 'Ya Ali, grant me x, y, z'. He knows it just as well as everyone else. I can only imagine there were a few confused people in the room at this point.

That's what he said lol. He said "Allahuma ini atawajahu illaika bi XYZ" If there is anyone who asks Ali to grant him something than... lol

 

 

 

I think he's reading a little too much into the story here.

 

And thus did We make (men) to get knowledge of them that they might know that Allah's promise is true and that as for the hour there is no doubt about it. When they disputed among themselves about their affair and said: Erect an edifice over them-- their Lord best knows them. Those who prevailed in their affair said: We will certainly raise a masjid over them. [Qur'an 18:22]

 

I don't see any praise for those who 'venerate' graves. The most you could argue here is that it is allowed, or even perhaps praised, to built a masjod over a grave, based on this verse.

 

 

Irrelevant since I doubt even the dumbest blood-crazed Wahhabi on the planet says it is not permitted to visit graves. Once again, the issue is what people do at the graves, which Nakshawani has not even attempted to address here.

 

He never said that?

 

Ok? Again, nobody has a problem with visiting or sending salams.

 

 

 

Again, no attempt to address the more controversial things people ask for, or do, at graves. He really seems fond of strawman arguments. Anyway, he seems to be under the impression that you can only worship someone who you believe is equal to God, which isn't true, even if some people would like it to be.

 

 

To be honest, I think this lecture was exceptionally weak, even by Nakshawani standards. In future he should make a better attempt to address the substance of the argument he is opposing, and not waste time on strawman arguments or easily refuted weak arguments.

Sorry Haydar, I put my replies in quote style. So please read them from the quote. Big mistake man.

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Who said that is all we do? Ofcourse many people try to seek blessing, but in the name of Allah. Like the story of the Prophet's shirt below, Abdullah ibn Abdullah is not worshipping the shirt, otherwise the Prophet would not give him the shirt. Same thing happens in Karbala, people hang on and kiss the flags etc..

 

 

I didn't say it was all people did, but it is a big part of it, and this is what results in most of the criticism, so this is something that needs to be responded to, and not just brushed off.

 

 

Well obviously anyone can stand by a grave and do nothing. But about when it comes to doing Dua's for a long time on that grave?

From what I can tell, Wahhabis are fine with duas near graves as long as they are addressed to Allah, and not to the person inside the grave. They do however have an issue with raised voices in a masjid, and women visiting graves.

 

The deceased also benefits and is treated kindly by the visitor greeting him with salaams, making du’aa’ for him, praying for forgiveness for him. This applies only to Muslims. Among the du’aa’s that may be recited are: 

Assalaamu ‘alaykum ahl al-diyaar min al-mu’mineen wa’l-Muslimeen, in sha Allaah bikum laahiqoon, as’al Allaaha lana wa lakum al-‘aafiyah (peace be upon you O people of the dwellings, believers and Muslims, In sha Allaah we will join you, I ask Allaah to keep us and you safe and sound).” 

It is permissible to raise the hands when reciting this du’aa’, because of the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah who said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) went out one night, and I sent Bareerah to follow him and see where he went. She said, ‘He went towards Baqee’ al-Gharqad [the graveyard in Madeenah], and he stood at the bottom of al-Baqee’ and raised his hands, then he went away.’ Bareerah came back to me and told me, and when morning came I asked him about it. I said, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, where did you go out to last night? He said, ‘I was sent to the people of al-Baqee’, to pray for them.’”

 But you should not face the grave when making du’aa’ for them; rather you should face the direction of the Ka’bah, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade prayer (salaah) facing graves, and du’aa’ is the heart and soul of salaah, as is well known, and is subject to the same rulings. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Du’aa’ is worship” then he recited the aayah (interpretation of the meaning): “And your Lord said: “Invoke Me [i.e. believe in My Oneness (Islamic Monotheism) and ask Me for anything] I will respond to your (invocation).” [Ghaafir 40:60]

 

islamqa.info/en/14287

 

Anyway, you can read their views here:

 

http://islamqa.info/en/34561

http://islamqa.info/en/14287

http://islamqa.info/en/147407

 

 

He never said that.

 

He certainly did.

 

Watch from 1:02:00 onwards, particularly 1:03:30-1:03:45

"There are some that rip off their shirts and go out publicly and do it [beat their chest]. Is that what the scholars tell them? No."

 

1:03:50-1:04:30

"There are some that use chains and hurt their backs. There are some - how many of you have seen the following sight, of getting a sword and striking your head?The scholars come forward and state: "You are harming yourself. It is haram." But unfortunately what the scholars state sometimes goes in one hear and out of the other."

 

 

 

That's what he said lol. He said "Allahuma ini atawajahu illaika bi XYZ" If there is anyone who asks Ali to grant him something than... lol

I'm glad you think it's funny if ayone would ask Imam `Ali (as) for something, but I can assure you that plenty do, and it's something mainstream, endorsed by most major scholars. The only condition they put on it is that you must realise that Imam `Ali is not independent of Allah, and derives his power from Him. Apart from that, you can make dua to the Imams (and other than them) for whatever needs you have, and they can answer your dua through their God-given powers. You don't need to ask from their their graves either, since they are all-hearing and all-seeing (according to this school of thought).

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I didn't say it was all people did, but it is a big part of it, and this is what results in most of the criticism, so this is something that needs to be responded to, and not just brushed off.

 

 

From what I can tell, Wahhabis are fine with duas near graves as long as they are addressed to Allah, and not to the person inside the grave. They do however have an issue with raised voices in a masjid, and women visiting grave

Ok I am kinda new to ShiaChat so yeah. But I will reply to these 2 quotes and than the rest. Firstly as you pointed out, some misinformed individuals do that. If people are going to judge Shia Muslims on what a few Muslims do, I can judge other sects and call them terrorists.

Secondly, have you not read what Muhamad ibn Abdul Wahab said? Anyone who does a Dua on the Prophet's grave which is not directly to Allah is considered polythiesm and I can get you the statement.

BTW I think we watched a different lecture. I watched the video "Shia view on grave worship" 50 minutes just on that.

Also on the Imams' fulfilling what some people want, I have no problem with that. But through Allah they will do that.

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Ok I am kinda new to ShiaChat so yeah. But I will reply to these 2 quotes and than the rest. Firstly as you pointed out, some misinformed individuals do that. If people are going to judge Shia Muslims on what a few Muslims do, I can judge other sects and call them terrorists.

Many people start off thinking/hoping it is simply some 'misinformed' individuals, but they eventually realise that it's not the case. I used to think like you as well.

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Secondly, have you not read what Muhamad ibn Abdul Wahab said? Anyone who does a Dua on the Prophet's grave which is not directly to Allah is considered polythiesm and I can get you the statement.

Yeah, so like I said, they say that duas need to be addressed directly to Allah. However, they allow salams to the Prophet (pbuh).

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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Brother are you Shia?

 

Yes, alhamdulillah.

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The best website that explains IMO is Al-Islam.org the Shia Encyclopedia. And btw it seems we watched a different lecture. I watched "The Shia View On Grave Worship".

I didn't watch the lecture, I'm just responding to your account of it, which I assume is accurate (it certainly sounds like Ammar Nakshawani anyway).

To be honest, the point here isn't even about whether certain practices near graves are ok or not, it's about using proper argumentation. Unfortunately too many Shias don't seem to realise what good argumentation is, and consequently are vulnerable to following charismatic, but shallow, speakers. Or simply falling into speaker/scholar-worship without critically analysing the arguments they make. In order to raise the bar what is needed is more of a willingness to call out bad, or unscholarly, arguments when they are heard, rather than mindlessly cheering for 'our side'.

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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I'm glad you think it's funny if ayone would ask Imam `Ali (as) for something, but I can assure you that plenty do, and it's something mainstream, endorsed by most major scholars. The only condition they put on it is that you must realise that Imam `Ali is not independent of Allah, and derives his power from Him. Apart from that, you can make dua to the Imams (and other than them) for whatever needs you have, and they can answer your dua through their God-given powers. You don't need to ask from their their graves either, since they are all-hearing and all-seeing (according to this school of thought).

 

This is what Shaheed Mutahhari writes:

 

In most of the ziyarats (homages) which we recite, we acknowledge the existence of Wilayat and Imamat in this sense, and believe that the Imam has a universal spirit. In the ziyarats which we all recite and which we regard as a part of Shi'ah doctrine we say: "I testify that you see where I stand; you hear what I say and return my salutation." It is to be noted that we address that to an Imam who is dead. From our point of view in this respect there is no difference between a dead and a living Imam. It is not that we say so to a dead Imam only. We say: "Peace be on you, Ali ibn Musa al-Riza. I admit and testify that you hear my salutation and return it."

 

The Sunnis with the exception of the Wahhabis, believe that only the Holy Prophet is endowed with this quality of knowing and hearing. According to them nobody else in the world occupies such a high spiritual status and has such a spiritual comprehension. But we, the Shiites believe that this position is held by all our Imams. This belief is a part of our religious principles and we always acknowledge it.

 

Source

 

My only issue with the common view today is that, from what I have seen anyways, the narrations that have reached us suggest that they can only hear when we are near their graves, or they are informed of our salutations when we are afar. But we don't seem to have any consistent examples of the companions or the Imams themselves actually asking the Imams before them or even asking the Prophet (after their passing away from this world) for any thing, rather the main theme has always been to ask Allah and beseech Him, and if anything, you beseech Him by giving Him the right of the Prophet or the Imams.

 

Wassalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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@Sumerian

Apologies, i know this is an old topic but how did you manage to transcribe this? Was it with some kind of dictation device?

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Seriously, Wahhabis are way too extreme with visiting graves; why do you think they blew up thousands of graves at Jannatul Baqee and built high fences around them? Because they want to prevent people as much as they can from entering and that's why they only open it sometimes

Making dua near graves is considered as shirk for them; when really the person who makes dua say for instance near the tomb of the Holy Prophet(sawas), it's not like as if the person is asking the holy Prophet(sawas) for his needs; tawassul is about getting close to the people who are close to Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى and one of the ways to get closer to Him is by getting close to the people who are close to Him. Rasullulah(sawas) even mentioned tawassul in some hadith.

Even kissing or rubbing their hands on the graves is an an innovation for them too when it's not; it's an act of respect but they just think its shirk. It's even mentioned in their books that it is mustahab but they refute it, and I know that because when I went to Hajj a few years ago,  some Wahhabi guy was preventing the people from kissing or touching the maqam of Ibrahim(as). LIKE NOT EVEN TOUCHING IT. Just look at it and go. 

Honestly they're messed up people, and what I recently found out about them is that they do not believe that the Earth spins.

Like

I could just bang my head on a wall as to how stupid they are.

 

Fee amanillah

Edited by 3wliya_maryam

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