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Krishna And Ali

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Krishna and Ali

 
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

Krishna and Ali (a.s)
The present subject under discussion is a controversial one and may annoy many of the Muslims (Shies and Sunnis) and Hindus as well. But the pivot of my discussion are only those broad minded researchers who are ever in pursuit of truth and ready to imbibe truth howsoever bitter it may be. Regarding the bitterness of truth the Holy Prophet of Islam said,

“Al-haqq-u-murrun: Truth is bitter”

To swallow truth you have to first prepare yourself, and also you have to give effort during the process of swallowing, and even after giving all the efforts it sometimes regurgitates back.People with strong conviction do not fear in going through even the wildest and most radical of theories, just like a ocean explorer who tethered to a ship with a very strong rope, possessing a big oxygen cylinder, dares to go into the abyss of the ocean in search of a treasure. Quran says,

“Hold you tightly to the rope of Allah which shall never break”

I am talking to those who are holding the rope of Allah very tightly, and those who are in doubt of their grip of the rope should avoid reading this piece of writing.

Well, coming back to the subject of discussion, Krishna and Ali-ibne-Abutalib (The first Muslim) are two different people, who existed in different periods in history. Lord Krishna was born in some 3300 BC(roughly) and Ali (as) was born in some 600AD.Both of them were the greatest personalities of their times, both were great philosophers and both were men of God(spiritual beings),both were the bravest, both of them were killed during their prayer (Krishna was killed when he was in yoga meditation by an arrow and Ali(as) was attacked by poisoned sword when he was in prayer) both had an encounter with a snake at their birth etc.The word Krishna(krish=one who digs or ploughs the earth,na= peace,with control etc) means one who ploughs or digs the earth with peace,control and authority.Hence the meaning of Krishna can also be taken as one who has control on the earth(field) or in slang "Father of earth."And as a matter of pleasant surprise one of the popular name of Ali(as) was Abu-Turab(father of earth);this title was given to Ali(as) by the Prophet of Islam(as) when he found Ali(as) asleep with sand covering his whole body(Ali(as) used to work in fields and dig wells).Krishna is also know as 'Ilapatye(Lord of earth) and Abu-Turab(father of earth) also means the same.Krishna is known as 'Satyavacha(speaker of truth) and Ali (as) was given the title of 'Siddique-al-Akbar(the greatest among truthful) by the Holy Prophet of Islam(as).
 
 
Ali,in arabic,means ‘The topmost’.It is mentioned in ‘hadith(traditions) that the name ‘Ali’ was revealed(by Allah) to the Holy Prophet of Islam for his cousin Ali-Ibne-Abutalib.Krishna declare himself as ‘Ali-the topmost’ in chapter-10 of the Bhagavatgeeta in the following verses,

The Supreme Lord said: O Arjuna, now I shall explain to you My prominent divine manifestations, because My manifestations are endless. (10.19)
O Arjuna, I am the Atma(topmost=Ali) abiding in the heart of all beings. I am also the beginning, the middle, and the end of all beings. (10.20)
I am Vishnu(vishnu was the topmost=Ali) among the (twelve) sons of Aditi, I am the radiant sun(topmost=Ali) among the luminaries, I am Maric(topmost=Ali) among the gods of wind, I am the moon(topmost among the night luminaries=Ali) . (10.21)
I am the Sama Veda(sama veda is considered as the highest among the vedas ,topmost=Ali) among the Vedas; I am Indra(topmost=Ali) among the Devas; I am the mind(topmost=Ali) among the senses; I am the consciousness(topmost=Ali) in living beings. (10.22)
( I shall now mention 'Ali' in '()' to convey the meaning "topmost) topmost=Ali

I am Shiva(Ali) among the Rudras; (I am) Kubera(Ali) among the Yakshas and demons; I am the fire(Ali) among the Vasus; and I am Meru(Ali) among the mountain peaks. (10.23)
Among the priests, O Arjuna, know Me to be the chief, Brihaspati. Among the army generals, I am Skanda(Ali); I am the ocean(Ali) among the bodies of water. (10.24)
I am Bhrigu(Ali) among the great sages; I am the monosyllable OM(Ali) among the words; I am Japa(Ali) among the Yajna; and I am the Himalaya(Ali) among the immovables. (10.25)
I am the Peepal tree(Ali) among the trees, Narada(Ali) among the sages, Chitraaratha(Ali) among the Gandharvas, and sage Kapila(Ali) among the Siddhas. (10.26)
Know Me as Uchchaihshrava(Ali), born at the time of churning the ocean for getting the nectar, among the horses; Airaavata(Ali) among the elephants; and the King(Ali) among men. (10.27)
I am thunderbolt(Ali) among the weapons, Kaamadhenu(Ali) among the cows, and the cupid(Ali) among the procreators. Among the serpents, I am Vaasuk(Ali). (10.28)
I am Sheshanaaga(Ali) among the Naagas, I am Varuna(Ali) among the water gods, and Aryamaa(Ali) among the manes. I am Yama(Ali) among the controllers. (10.29)
I am Prahlaada(Ali) among Diti's progeny, time or death among the healers, lion among the beast(Ali) and the Garuda(Ali) among birds. (10.30)
I am the wind(Ali) among the purifiers, and Lord Rama(Ali) among the warriors. I am the shark(Ali) among the fishes, and the Ganges(Ali) among the rivers. (10.31)
I am the beginning, the middle, and the end of the creation (Ali), O Arjuna. Among the knowledge I am knowledge of the supreme Self (Ali). I am logic (Ali) of the logician. (10.32)
I am the letter "A"(Ali) among the alphabets, among the compound words I am the dual compound, I am the endless time, I am the sustainer of all, and have faces on all sides (or I am omniscient). (10.33)
I am the all-devouring death (Ali) and also the origin of future beings. Among the feminine nouns I am fame (Ali) prosperity, speech, memory, intellect, resolve, and forgiveness. (10.34)
I am Brihatsaama(Ali) among the hymns. I am Gaayatri(Ali) among the mantras, I am Maargsirsha (November-December) among the months, I am the spring(Ali) among the seasons. (10.35)
I am the fraud of the gambler; I am the splendor of the splendid; I am victory (of the victorious); I am resolution (of the resolute); I am the goodness of the good(Ali). (10.36)
I am Vaasudeva(Ali) among the Vrishni, Arjuna(Ali) among the Paandavas, Vyaasa among(Ali) the sages, and Ushanaa(Ali) among the poets. (10.37)
I am the power of rulers, the statesmanship of the seekers of victory, I am silence among the secrets(Ali) and the Self-knowledge(Ali) of the knowledgeable. (10.38)
I am the origin(Ali) or seed of all beings, O Arjuna. There is nothing, animate or inanimate, that can exist without Me. (See also 7.10 and 9.18) (10.39)
There is no end of My divine manifestations, O Arjuna. This is only a brief description by Me of the extent of My divine manifestations. (10.40)

Is not Krishna trying to say(in code language) that he is Ali,the topmost in every aspect?

Now it may be argued that,when Krishna is saying he is 'Ali(as)' did Ali,at any point of time in his life, declared himself as Krishna.Well ,I am quoting a hadith form the book 'Kaukab-e-Durri',page.no 364-365,which runs as follows,
It is narrated thgrough Ammar-e Yasir, Jabir bin Abdullah, Malik-e Ashtar and Miqdad Aswad al Kindi, that when Imam Ali was proceeding towards Shaam [for the battle at Siffin], he stopped and turned his horse away from the direction of Shaam and looked around for quite some time and then proceeded in one direction [away from Shaam]. His companions were astonished at this and asked him the reason for the change of direction.
Imam Ali replied: "I see what you are unable to see, for the hidden [Ghaib] is screened from your eyes. There is a monastry in this forest in which a Christian Monk is waiting with the sword tied around his waist and is ready to blow the trumpet. I want to break his sword and shatter his trumpet to pieces. If you are with me then follow me".
He, along with his companions then proceeded to the place where they found the monastry and the hermit. The hermit was attracted by the luminiscent face of Imam Ali surrounded by his companions.
The herimt asked: "O, You Fair Gentleman where are you coming from?"
Imam Ali replied : "I am coming from Madina and we are proceeding to fight a battle at Shaam"
The personality of Imam Ali so impressed the hermit that his heart was illumined with faith.
The hermit asked: "O, you, Young man with the effulgent face are you an angel or a human being?"
Imam Ali replied: "I am a human being and a Guide to the Djinns and leader of the angles"
The hermit said: "In the Bible I have read the name as Taab Taab. O you the Effulgent One, Is that your name?".
Imam Ali replied: "Taab Taab is the name of Muhammad the Chosen One [Mustafa]. My name is Santiyya".
The hermit asked: "Is your name mentioned as Meet Meet in the Torah?"
Imam Ali replied: "Meet Meet is the name of Muhammad the Chosen One [Mustafa] and my name is Aeliya"
The hermit asked : "Are you the Messiah who has descended from the skies to alliviate the melancholy and sorrow of the denizens of the earth?"
Imam Ali replied: "No. I am not Jesus, but Jesus is one of those who adore me"
The hermit asked: "Are you Moses come down with his staff to show his miracles to mankind?"
Imam Ali replied: "Iam not Moses but Moses is one of those who loves me"
The hermit said: "For God's sake tell me your name and your descent [geneology]"
Imam Ali replied: "In every country and community I bear different names. The Arabs call me Hal `Ata and search for me in this title. The people of Tayif call me Tahmeed. Among the Meccans I am known as Babul Balad. The denizens of the skies write my name as Ahad. The Turks call me Balya and the Zangis call me Majeelan. And the Hindus call me Kishen Kishen. The Firangis call me Hami Isa. And the peoplke of Khataya call me Bolya. I am reknowned in Iraq as Ameerun Nahl. In Khurasan I am knoewwn as Haider. In the first firmament I am known as Abdul Hameed. In the second fiermament I am known as Abdul Samad. In the third firmament I am known as Abdul Majeed. In the fourth firmamwnt I am known as Zul `Ulaa. In the fifth firmament my nanmew is Ali al `Aalaa. The Glorious Lord has made me sit upon theThrone of Authority [Musnad-e-Imaarat] and designated me as Ameerul Mominin. The Chief of the two worlds [Khwaja-e-Do-Saraa] Muhammade Mustafa named me Abu Turaab. My father gave Abul Hasan as my agnomen and my mother gave the agnomen Abul `Ashar"
There are many false allegations(that he was a womaniser,he was 'makhan choor'etc) attributed to Krishna and similarly there are many false stories attributed to Ali to the extent that a group of Muslims used to curse him(as)(God forbid) from the pulpit as their religious duty(Imam –Ahmed-ibne –Hambal stopped the cursing of Ali(as) from the Jummah-sermon).Krishna was a great orator and his book of sermons is called “ The Bhagavat Geeta”.Ali(as) is considered as the greatest of Muslim orators and his anthology of sermons is called “Nahjulbalagha-peak of eloquence.” If you read Nahjulbalagha and Bhagavad-Gita you will find the same tone, same spiritual energy and the same philosophical frequency and many of the pearls of wisdom are common to both.
 
 
 
Fig.1.The script of 'OM' in Sanskrit resembles the script of 'Ali' in Arabic.
 
 
If you read Geeta from chapter -9 along with the sermon of “Bayan” of Imam Ali(as) it appears as if both of them are one personality existing in different periods of time. Because in Geeta Krishna says “ I am Saguna Brahman(God with attributes-not real, the real true God is formless and cannot be conceived and is called Nirguna Brahman)(1):Ali (a.s) in his sermon of Bayan says “I am the face of Allah which shall not perish”:Krishna says “ I made the creation”(2): Ali (a.s) says “I raised the seven heavens and established the earth with the permission of almighty Allah :Krishna says “I am the soul(atma)”(3):Ali (a.s) says “ I am the Rooh (atma-soul) :Krishna says “I am the rites and ritual of scriptures”(4): Ali (a.s) says “I am the salat(prayer), Zakat, Hajj and Jihad(holy struggle) of a true believer”: Krishna says “ I am the buddhi(intellect) which differentiates between truth and falsehood”(5): Ali(a.s) says “ I am Furquan(differentiator of truth and falsehood)”:Krishna says “I am time”(6):Ali(a.s) says “ I am the regulator of time”: Krishna says “ I am the syllable ‘OM’”(7): The author,Mr.Muhammad Geelani, in his book “OM and Ali” proved that the syllable “OM” is Ali because in Upanishads it is mentioned that “OM” is “Saguna Brahman-(Not God) and the meaning of “OM”in Sanskrit are, the hand of God, father of earth and power of God which are the exact synonym of ‘Yadullah’, ‘Abu Turab(father of earth) Quwatte-Parwardigar which are again titles given to Ali by The Holy Prophet of Islam. Krishna says “I am God’s thunderbolt, which descends on the wicked”(8): Ali says “ I make the clouds and produce the thunderbolt, and make it fall on the enemies of Allah: Krishna says “I am the beginning, the middle and the end of every thing”(9): Ali says “I am the beginning and the end of every thing”: Krishna says “I am the Fig tree”(10):Ali says “I am the Fig and the Olive”: Krishna says “I am the scriptures ever written”(11) :Ali says “I am the master of previously reveled books and the Holy Quran”: Krishna says “I will be coming again and again to establish religion”(11):Ali says “I had been send by God in erstwhile times in different forms and a thousand nations were destroyed for not believing in me”.
I have quoted only those parts of the sermon of 'Bayan' which are similar to those of 'TheBhagavatgeeta and hence, my readers may be tempted to presume that the sermon of Bayan is just a copy of 'Geeta'. But the reality is,the sermon of Bayan contains words of great scientific wisdom which are nowhere found in the Bhagavatgeeta.For instance Ali says,
 
"I am standing in the skies where only souls are able to travel and I am the only 'one' who is able to breath there." Nahjul-Asrar:Sermon of Bayan,page,192
 
The great astronomer 'Johannes Kepler' in his fictional work "Somnium (Dreams)" predicted that animals could not breath between the earth and the moon.Only in the 20th century, it was prooved that space is without oxygen, and that we cannot breath in space.This scientific fact should be enough to establish the validity of sermon of Bayan and that it is not just a copy of Geeta.
As the Geeta is older than the sermon of Bayan it will be irrational to presume that it has be copied from the sermon of Bayan.Just finding a 800 years old copy of geeta,and subjecting it to dating study(by Geiger Muller counter),shall solve the issue .
There are people who declared themselves to be God, but despite of saying such huge things both,Krishna and Ali(as) denied themselves to be God(Krishna says to Arjuna in chapter-12 that he is Saguna Brahman and the real formless God is Nirguna Brahman and the real goal of life is to reach Nirguna Brahman(Formless God).The amazing similarity of tone and subject matter of Geeta and the sermon of Bayan will be a topic of research for both the Hindu and Muslim philosophers.


                  Only Islam is the ultimate truthThe following hadith is mentioned in "Kitaab-ul-Mubeen" by Mohammadkhan Kirmani,

"One day the Omar ibn Khattab was copying the traits of Prophet Mohammad (saw) from taurait (torot),the book of Jews, as he was with a Jewish scholar.When the Holy Prophet of Islam came to know of this, he (saw) became very angry and said to Omar: "Even if Moses where here and you "O' Omar would have followed him instead of me then you would have turned an unbeliever."

According to the above hadith Islam's verdict is always the final one and only Islam should be followed.If there are common points between Geeta and Islam then Islam should be followed and not Geeta;there is a rule that latest is preferred over the old.And out of Krishna and Ali, Ali should be followed and not Krishna.
 
Edited by Sajjad_786

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Allah has sent prophets to all of the communities, so maybe krishna was a prophet and later on they started worshipping him just like they did with isa(as)

 

I can't use "maybe" to anything, bro..

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Apart from the evidence of the Quran, there is one reference which is controversial among the commentators. There is a tradition reported from the Holy Prophet (sa) which speaks of an Indian prophet by name. In his words:


 


There was a prophet of God in India who was dark in colour and his name was Kahan.1


Now anyone acquainted with the history of Indian religions would immediately connect this description to Lord Krishna, who is invariably described in the Hindu literature as being dark of complexion. Also, the title Kanhaya is added to his name Krishna. Kanhaya contains the same consonants K,N,H as does the name Kahan . There is no denying the fact that the Holy Quran makes it incumbent on every Muslim not only to believe in all the prophets, but it also clearly informs us that in every region of the world and in every age, God did raise messengers and prophets


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Let me guess SAJJAD 786 is a malang. Malangs seem to borrow heavily from the Agha Khani's. You find similar thought processes amongst the Agha Khanis.

 

Hercules also killed 2 snakes at his birth and was poisoned by a garment. Greeks try and Deify him as well. So many similarities. !!

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I think people are missing the point here, to simplify this:

there is only one path of truth, no matter whether your an Indian or an Arab or whatever , but on the path of truth, you will find the same ends will be reached, if i travel this path or you travel this path, then you will come to the same conclusions that the Imams came to, because the path of truth is one path, its not a different path for every person

there is 90000 veils between Allah and his creation, and as Allah removes more and more of these veils you will see what the Imams had seen, and say what they said also because you will be passing by the same truths 

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no bro Im not a malang I just saw this and wanted to share it with my bros and siss. just wanted to know their view about this

 

So you share garbage with your bros and siss . Pray tell what would you share with your enemies. 

 

om-symbol.jpg

 

I have copy and pasted the OHM symbol just to point out the innacuracy of your statement. You can see the symbol is composed of Arabic script. However Arabic is read right to left whereas sanskrit and Indian languages is read left to right.

 

So starting from the left is the AYN smmbol but a simplified reversal of image. This is joined to the MIM which is the second half of the symbol. The final part of the OHM is the NOON which is situated above the main symbol . So the OHM symbol is composed of the three arabic letters

 

AYN MIM NOON

 

so much for the similarity to the ALI

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^As for the comparison between words of krishna and imam Ali (AS) this is a nice project. maybe some conclusions need a bit more investigation or thought by those who are able to do that. i recall shaykh arif abdulhussien mentioning that maybe the these religions had an abrahamic base (monotheism) so it is worth a great "?" and "investigation" but i don;t know for sure if we can determine this or not. now we see this religion is very polytheistic so allahuAllam if they had a different start as many religions are looked at like they once were monotheism that was altered and changed (Zororastism as example). at the best we can take from this post the similar words of wisdom from both ends which are very interesting. 

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^As for the comparison between words of krishna and imam Ali (as) this is a nice project. maybe some conclusions need a bit more investigation or thought by those who are able to do that. i recall shaykh arif abdulhussien mentioning that maybe the these religions had an abrahamic base (monotheism) so it is worth a great "?" and "investigation" but i don;t know for sure if we can determine this or not. now we see this religion is very polytheistic so allahuAllam if they had a different start as many religions are looked at like they once were monotheism that was altered and changed (Zororastism as example). at the best we can take from this post the similar words of wisdom from both ends which are very interesting. 

These peole of old sought after truth, and they sought for truth inside themselves, and hence they found truth inside themselves

thhis truth is embedded inside every person as truth and as Islam, so a person doesnt need to have lineage to Prophets to find it

Islam is not only external and has to come externally , Islam is internal just as well as external, hence how these old buddhists found truth and why it sound so much like Islam

its not like inside we are devoid of truth, and we have to be guided externally, truth is in all aspects of the human self

"verily we will show them signs in all region of the earth and in their own souls until they know that this is truth" Quran

this applied to everyone, nobody is left unguided or alone to just go any way with any excuse

heck even if a person was born on mars or any other planet in the universe with no other person in sight, he/she will still be able to identify truth in themselves and find Islam simply by the actions they do on their own and the conscious they have in them selves

so in conclusion it doesnt mean that the indian nations had abrahamic religion influences, all it means and proves is that Islam is in all of us, because if Islam is not in all of us then what is inside of us?

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I have read about the similarities between the sayings of Ali and Krishna before.  If you search Krishna and Imam Ali in google images there are some pictures with their quotes side my side.


 

Apart from the evidence of the Quran, there is one reference which is controversial among the commentators. There is a tradition reported from the Holy Prophet (sa) which speaks of an Indian prophet by name. In his words:

 

There was a prophet of God in India who was dark in colour and his name was Kahan.1

Now anyone acquainted with the history of Indian religions would immediately connect this description to Lord Krishna, who is invariably described in the Hindu literature as being dark of complexion. Also, the title Kanhaya is added to his name Krishna. Kanhaya contains the same consonants K,N,H as does the name Kahan . There is no denying the fact that the Holy Quran makes it incumbent on every Muslim not only to believe in all the prophets, but it also clearly informs us that in every region of the world and in every age, God did raise messengers and prophets

 

 

That is very interesting since Krishna is often referred to as being "kala" (black/dark-skinned).  The truth is God sent prophets to each land and we only know of the select few mentioned by name in the Holy Qur'an.  I would not be surprised if some of the Hindu gods were actually prophets that had been deified and their messages distorted over time.

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These peole of old sought after truth, and they sought for truth inside themselves, and hence they found truth inside themselves

thhis truth is embedded inside every person as truth and as Islam, so a person doesnt need to have lineage to Prophets to find it

Islam is not only external and has to come externally , Islam is internal just as well as external, hence how these old buddhists found truth and why it sound so much like Islam

its not like inside we are devoid of truth, and we have to be guided externally, truth is in all aspects of the human self

"verily we will show them signs in all region of the earth and in their own souls until they know that this is truth" Quran

this applied to everyone, nobody is left unguided or alone to just go any way with any excuse

heck even if a person was born on mars or any other planet in the universe with no other person in sight, he/she will still be able to identify truth in themselves and find Islam simply by the actions they do on their own and the conscious they have in them selves

so in conclusion it doesnt mean that the indian nations had abrahamic religion influences, all it means and proves is that Islam is in all of us, because if Islam is not in all of us then what is inside of us?

oh no I took what he said using abrahamic as monotheistic roots as if I am not mistaking Hinduism is much older than prophet Abraham (as) I cannot personally say if it is true or not though that is for those deeply occupied in research if they can derive such a conclusion. Edited by Maitham

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  All peoples on earth have their saints and mystics and all sound and speak the same cause they receive their light from the same source. Krishna and Ali were two saints of millions of saints that have come and will still arrive in future. 

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(salam)

 

This is an excellent topic, it's about time some one brought up something related to this.

 

I have two questions though, for anyone who can answer them:

 

1. How authentic are some of the sayings Imam Ali (AS) is saying here? Like "I am the destroyer of all things" for example. Primarily from Najr al-Asrar & Khutbah al-Tutunjiyyah.

 

2. Should these sayings truly be authentic, I kept reading it in a similar fashion to Jesus (AS) in the Bible saying "Before Abraham was I" and other such large claims. It wouldn't be very far off to say all these holy figures are interconnected by a reoccurring figure (Imam Ali (AS) ) taking different roles as a Prophet, or Jinn of Solomon, etc.

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2. Should these sayings truly be authentic, I kept reading it in a similar fashion to Jesus (as) in the Bible saying "Before Abraham was I" and other such large claims.

 These sayings are common to all mystical teachings when Jesus said before Abraham i am it means our souls are created before our bodies. This applies to all humans not just Jesus. You can say this for yr self. Also as all mystics say things like i was the 1st and the last it means we were all created from the 1st soul which was one. So technically we were there in the beginning from one soul. These terms don't apply to any specific entity but everybody.

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