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mummikiks

Ayatollah Khamenei - Fatwa On Transgender

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Hello. 
I am interested in reading the fatwa issued by Ayatollah Khamenei on transsexuals but I do not understand Arabic or Persian.
Does anybody have a link to a translated (english) version of some of the fatwas?

Thank you!
Marie 

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On 9/21/2013 at 6:18 AM, mummikiks said:

Hello. 

I am interested in reading the fatwa issued by Ayatollah Khamenei on transsexuals but I do not understand Arabic or Persian.

Does anybody have a link to a translated (english) version of some of the fatwas?

Thank you!

Marie 

He's VERY likely to accept it given Khomeini was one of the big figures that accepted transsexuals. 

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On 9/24/2013 at 6:11 AM, ShiaBen said:

He's VERY likely to accept it given Khomeini was one of the big figures that accepted transsexuals. 

Accepting Transexuals is accepted in Islam under certain, precise, biological, scientific, psychological circumstances.

Its not just simple like that.

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Q1271. Some people have the appearance of men. They have female psychological and sexual tendencies though. If they do not undergo the operation of sex change, they might commit sins insofar as their sexual behavior is concerned. Is it permissible for them to undergo such an operation?
A: There is no harm in undergoing the said operation if the end result would be determining of the true sex of the person provided that it does not lead to the commission of any ḥarām act or a vile consequence.

 

Q1272: What is the ruling in the matter of undergoing an operation for a hermaphrodite person to become either man or woman?
A: There is no objection to it in itself provided that one avoids ḥarām preliminary steps.

 

[http://www.leader.ir/tree/index.php?catid=23]

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On 9/28/2013 at 8:48 AM, Dawud1UK said:

Q1272: What is the ruling in the matter of undergoing an operation for a hermaphrodite person to become either man or woman?

A: There is no objection to it in itself provided that one avoids ḥarām preliminary steps.

[http://www.leader.ir/tree/index.php?catid=23]

:sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick:

If a Wahhabi said this, every last person on this site would be criticizing it. But because Imam Rahbar has said it, it's acceptable. Oh the hypocrisy.

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On 10/8/2013 at 11:50 PM, Mu3lam said:

If a Wahhabi said this, every last person on this site would be criticizing it. But because Imam Rahbar has said it, it's acceptable. Oh the hypocrisy.

Salam. You are right. They are to be condemned for passing negative judgment on others regarding any issues when there's no reason with both aql (logic) or naql (narration) to object their stance. If a wahabi said this and a shia objected it with no reason, surely it would be wrong, as there's no objection in islam (Quran and authentic ahadith) against SRS [sex reassignment surgery]. And that we find something disgusting does not make it haram or we fancy something does not make it halal. Our likes and dislikes are not reasons for legislation.. (Knowing that, there's no arguing about tastes. Someone might find it or any other thing such as pork, alcohol etc. good. Otherwise, why do they practice them? Anway, these people are not to legislate on the issues either.) It is God to legislate. And He is the best to do so, as He knows his creation better than anyone and has right on His servants more than anyone.. (Noting that, Islam as the true religion needs to prove these legislations are truthful through explaining the philosophy and reasoning.)

And, we know, there is rulings in islam against pork, alcohol etc.. But, nothing against SRS. Except, some people falsely USE the verse on changing God's creation (Quran 4:119) against it. But, they falsely use the same verse against everything else also (tattoos, any kind of make up for men and women, etc.) to "ease" the pain from different sicknesses in their hearts. Sadly, they become more sick by denying everything.

As brother 5a49 said, SRS is allowed in CERTAIN CASES..

Anyway, here's the best article I read earlier, explaining SRS in islam with reason and narration.. And the article is written by the marhoom marja I see in your avatar;

http://english.bayynat.org.lb/jurisprudence/sex.htm (Please press CRTL+F and type SRS to go to the related question)

Thanks. ma salam

Salam brother Dawud, Your link for Imam Khamenei's site does not work for me. However this one works; 

http://www.leader.ir/tree/view.php?parent=n5722&catid=23〈=en 

Thanks. Ma salam

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Brother, I enjoy talking to you also. But, we need to be MORE careful, especially when we are commenting on people (any people.. muslims or nonmuslims. Shia muslims or non-shia muslims.. Hizbullahi muslims or non-hizbullahi muslims etc. Quran, 49:11) Also because, we will be judged also according to the way we judge on others. Brother, I did not share the link to you, asking you to follow the Marhoom Ayatollah in this issue also. And, believe me, I know what "taking akhbars and rokhbans (scholars, sheikhs, molanas, marjas, mojtahids etc.) as lords beside God" in Quran, 9:31 refers to, in our time. But, I shared the link because; 1-) I did not read any explanation before on this ruling by Imam Ali Khamenei or anyone else.. 2-) I thought you would find it an interesting read. And, just like you don't follow any scholar blindly, we don't follow them blindly either. If -God forbid- they make mistakes, we won't follow them in those issues. And I really don't like talking about such topics (sex, gender changing, masturbation etc.), yet could you please share why you think, your marja and others made a mistake? What is your reason to believe SRS even in CERTAIN CASES mentioned is not accepted in Islam? Thanks. ma salam

Edited by HamzaTR

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This is the author: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_R._McHugh

 

This intensely felt sense of being transgendered constitutes a mental disorder in two respects. The first is that the idea of sex misalignment is simply mistaken—it does not correspond with physical reality. The second is that it can lead to grim psychological outcomes.

The transgendered suffer a disorder of "assumption" like those in other disorders familiar to psychiatrists. With the transgendered, the disordered assumption is that the individual differs from what seems given in nature—namely one's maleness or femaleness. Other kinds of disordered assumptions are held by those who suffer from anorexia and bulimia nervosa, where the assumption that departs from physical reality is the belief by the dangerously thin that they are overweight.

 

 

Read it here: http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120

 

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The whole article:

 

The government and media alliance advancing the transgender cause has gone into overdrive in recent weeks. On May 30, a U.S. Department of Health and Human Services review board ruled that Medicare can pay for the "reassignment" surgery sought by the transgendered—those who say that they don't identify with their biological sex. Earlier last month Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said that he was "open" to lifting a ban on transgender individuals serving in the military. Time magazine, seeing the trend, ran a cover story for its June 9 issue called "The Transgender Tipping Point: America's next civil rights frontier."
 
Yet policy makers and the media are doing no favors either to the public or the transgendered by treating their confusions as a right in need of defending rather than as a mental disorder that deserves understanding, treatment and prevention. This intensely felt sense of being transgendered constitutes a mental disorder in two respects. The first is that the idea of sex misalignment is simply mistaken—it does not correspond with physical reality. The second is that it can lead to grim psychological outcomes.
 
The transgendered suffer a disorder of "assumption" like those in other disorders familiar to psychiatrists. With the transgendered, the disordered assumption is that the individual differs from what seems given in nature—namely one's maleness or femaleness. Other kinds of disordered assumptions are held by those who suffer from anorexia and bulimia nervosa, where the assumption that departs from physical reality is the belief by the dangerously thin that they are overweight.
 
With body dysmorphic disorder, an often socially crippling condition, the individual is consumed by the assumption "I'm ugly." These disorders occur in subjects who have come to believe that some of their psycho-social conflicts or problems will be resolved if they can change the way that they appear to others. Such ideas work like ruling passions in their subjects' minds and tend to be accompanied by a solipsistic argument.
 
For the transgendered, this argument holds that one's feeling of "gender" is a conscious, subjective sense that, being in one's mind, cannot be questioned by others. The individual often seeks not just society's tolerance of this "personal truth" but affirmation of it. Here rests the support for "transgender equality," the demands for government payment for medical and surgical treatments, and for access to all sex-based public roles and privileges.
 
With this argument, advocates for the transgendered have persuaded several states—including California, New Jersey and Massachusetts—to pass laws barring psychiatrists, even with parental permission, from striving to restore natural gender feelings to a transgender minor. That government can intrude into parents' rights to seek help in guiding their children indicates how powerful these advocates have become.
 
How to respond? Psychiatrists obviously must challenge the solipsistic concept that what is in the mind cannot be questioned. Disorders of consciousness, after all, represent psychiatry's domain; declaring them off-limits would eliminate the field. Many will recall how, in the 1990s, an accusation of parental sex abuse of children was deemed unquestionable by the solipsists of the "recovered memory" craze.
 
You won't hear it from those championing transgender equality, but controlled and follow-up studies reveal fundamental problems with this movement. When children who reported transgender feelings were tracked without medical or surgical treatment at both Vanderbilt University and London's Portman Clinic, 70%-80% of them spontaneously lost those feelings. Some 25% did have persisting feelings; what differentiates those individuals remains to be discerned.
 
We at Johns Hopkins University—which in the 1960s was the first American medical center to venture into "sex-reassignment surgery"—launched a study in the 1970s comparing the outcomes of transgendered people who had the surgery with the outcomes of those who did not. Most of the surgically treated patients described themselves as "satisfied" by the results, but their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn't have the surgery. And so at Hopkins we stopped doing sex-reassignment surgery, since producing a "satisfied" but still troubled patient seemed an inadequate reason for surgically amputating normal organs.
 
It now appears that our long-ago decision was a wise one. A 2011 study at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden produced the most illuminating results yet regarding the transgendered, evidence that should give advocates pause. The long-term study—up to 30 years—followed 324 people who had sex-reassignment surgery. The study revealed that beginning about 10 years after having the surgery, the transgendered began to experience increasing mental difficulties. Most shockingly, their suicide mortality rose almost 20-fold above the comparable nontransgender population. This disturbing result has as yet no explanation but probably reflects the growing sense of isolation reported by the aging transgendered after surgery. The high suicide rate certainly challenges the surgery prescription.
 
There are subgroups of the transgendered, and for none does "reassignment" seem apt. One group includes male prisoners like Pvt. Bradley Manning, the convicted national-security leaker who now wishes to be called Chelsea. Facing long sentences and the rigors of a men's prison, they have an obvious motive for wanting to change their sex and hence their prison. Given that they committed their crimes as males, they should be punished as such; after serving their time, they will be free to reconsider their gender.
 
Another subgroup consists of young men and women susceptible to suggestion from "everything is normal" sex education, amplified by Internet chat groups. These are the transgender subjects most like anorexia nervosa patients: They become persuaded that seeking a drastic physical change will banish their psycho-social problems. "Diversity" counselors in their schools, rather like cult leaders, may encourage these young people to distance themselves from their families and offer advice on rebutting arguments against having transgender surgery. Treatments here must begin with removing the young person from the suggestive environment and offering a counter-message in family therapy.
 
Then there is the subgroup of very young, often prepubescent children who notice distinct sex roles in the culture and, exploring how they fit in, begin imitating the opposite sex. Misguided doctors at medical centers including Boston's Children's Hospital have begun trying to treat this behavior by administering puberty-delaying hormones to render later sex-change surgeries less onerous—even though the drugs stunt the children's growth and risk causing sterility. Given that close to 80% of such children would abandon their confusion and grow naturally into adult life if untreated, these medical interventions come close to child abuse. A better way to help these children: with devoted parenting.
 
At the heart of the problem is confusion over the nature of the transgendered. "Sex change" is biologically impossible. People who undergo sex-reassignment surgery do not change from men to women or vice versa. Rather, they become feminized men or masculinized women. Claiming that this is civil-rights matter and encouraging surgical intervention is in reality to collaborate with and promote a mental disorder.
 
Dr. McHugh, former psychiatrist in chief at Johns Hopkins Hospital, is the author of "Try to Remember: Psychiatry's Clash Over Meaning, Memory, and Mind" (Dana Press, 2008). 
Edited by Muhammed Ali

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Salam-un-Alaikum 

I have read from Internet that changing gender is allowed in shia community,is it true?
And if it is true then take an example of a man who has changed his gender into woman and at the time when she dies what Nimaz-e-Jinaza should be read to her.
A man's jinaza because she was first a man
or a women's jinaza because she is a woman now.

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12 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Ws,

Do you know someone who is a muslim transgender?

:salam:

Well there certainly are transgender muslims. There's a documentary on it online. You can find it on youtube I believe :)

:ws:

Edited by yusur317

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Salaam buddy!

Actually it's not allowed to change it but allowed to reveal it.

Most Ayatollahs have allowed to reveal it because there are people that when they come to an age their bodies change shape to something between a man and a woman (transsexual). In this situation the life will become intolerable for them as they can't marry to men or women etc. and that's why Ayatollahs have allowed them to reveal their desired gender by undergoing a surgery. So they have their choice to continue their previous gender or change into the opposite.

No need to say that this operation is not allowed to be done by normal people at all!

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28 minutes ago, Javad, said:

Salaam buddy!

Actually it's not allowed to change it but allowed to reveal it.

Most Ayatollahs have allowed to reveal it because there are people that when they come to an age their bodies change shape to something between a man and a woman (transsexual). In this situation the life will become intolerable for them as they can't marry to men or women etc. and that's why Ayatollahs have allowed them to reveal their desired gender by undergoing a surgery. So they have their choice to continue their previous gender or change into the opposite.

No need to say that this operation is not allowed to be done by normal people at all!

So only hermaphrodite people could change sex in iran ? Not normal persons ?

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26 minutes ago, alidu78 said:

So only hermaphrodite people could change sex in iran ? Not normal persons ?

Exactly !

Note that, this is Shia scholars Fetwa in every where no matter in which country.

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6 minutes ago, Javad, said:

Exactly !

Note that, this is Shia scholars Fetwa in every where no matter in which country.

But how explain that there are so much sex change in Iran ? So many iranians have hermaphrodite problems ?

PS: Did you see the private message i sent to you ?

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Hermaphroditism is hereditary, you will find communities staying together. Don't assume that all lesbian relationships are between 2 females, it is very likely that one of them is a hermaphrodite, it is easier for them to say they are lesbian than to say they are hermaphrodite.

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Trans people strongly identify with the sex that is not their biological sex.  For example, a biologically male transgender person strongly believes that they are female.  They are a female trapped inside a male body.  They believe this so strongly that they pay for surgery to surgically remove their perfectly functioning male reproductive organ.  On the face of it, this seems like self mutilation.  

It might be useful to think about a neutral case:  Imagine someone who strongly believes that they are a one-handed person trapped inside a two-handed person's body.  They only ever use their right hand; their left hand feels alien to them, like its not actually part of their body.  When they look in the mirror and see their left hand, they feel very uncomfortable.   So they go and cut of their left hand.

Wouldnt that be mutilation? Of course it would.  But then there doesnt seem to be a relevant difference between the transgender case and the one-handed person case, so if the latter is mutilation, then so is the former.

You could argue that one difference is that in removing the left hand, you are removing a fully functional part of your body.  But the same holds if you remove female breasts or male reproductive organs.

Thoughts?

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I would argue that someone who thinks that they are a one-handed person in a two-handed persons body has very little ground to stand on. While both are examples of feeling outside the body you belong, another example could be believing you are a wolf, in a humans body.

However, why i say gender is different is precisely because of the human brain, and the psychology of sex. Your brain, the hormones, the way it is modelled greatly influence how you see and view your sex, which is why you'll find transgender people far more common, in fact, almost several million fold [i don't think i can even quantify how many more fold] more common than people thinking they are one handed born in a two handed persons body, or even believing they are a wolf in another persons body.

The latter are often people with mental disorders and psychiatric problems and this is seen in other areas of their life, whereas transgender people are often normal, and there is scientific backing of some sort to support the notion their brains or some sort of hormonal and polygenetic  combined with psychological problem could be behind why they feel as they do.

Bottom line is, it's a very interesting example but i think it's insufficient to compare the two and conclude anything because beyond both being cases where one believes they are in the wrong body, as examples they aren't suitable when you begin to pick each one apart.

 

 

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Just to add , there are those born with both genital organs, would you argue it is mutilation [and not in the technical sense, because circumcision is also mutilation]  but in the negative connotation of needless damage of a perfectly healthy functioning and proper form for the sake of a mental disorder?

We would argue no, there is a physical basis i.e two genitals, and this is why it's justify to help return the person to proper order. The same may apply for someone whose brain is of a gender their genitalia and outward sex is not matched to.

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Due to modern surgical and health advancements these transgender operations can be carried out, but what about the entire human history upto about 50 or so year ago.... What did the transgender people then? Infact, were there even any transgender people? I don't ever recall reading some history or article about some person in the 1500s or 1800s or 9th century complaining that they feel like they are trapped in the wrong body (if you have read such stuff then please tell me). 

Could it be that in the past 50 odd years our environment is causing this problem (pesticides, hormones/antibiotics in meats, chemicals etc.)? 

For some reason I can't help thinking of this verse when stumble upon this transgender issue 

[shakir 4:119] And most certainly I will lead them astray and excite in them vain desires, and bid them so that they shall slit the ears of the cattle, and most certainly I will bid them so that they shall alter Allah's creation; and whoever takes the Shaitan for a guardian rather than Allah he indeed shall suffer a manifest loss.

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