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Is The Hadith Of Ashra Mubashara A Forgery?


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#1 zakzaki

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 05:46 AM

The hadith of ashra mubashara is a forgery because both Umar and AbuBakr wished they were stools of animals.  If they were sure of Jannath then why they wished to be stools of animals?

 

Statement of Umar:
"I wish I was my family's sheep. They would have fattened me up to the maximum. When they were visited by friends, they would have killed me and roasted part of me, and made qadid (meat cut into strips and dried) from the other part of it, then they would have eaten me, and lastly, they would have relieved me with their bowle evacuation ... I wish I had been all that, rather than a human being."
Minhaj as Sunnah, Ibn Taymiyya, vol 3 p 131
Hilyat al Awliya, Ibn Abi Nuaym, vol 1 p 52 .

A supposed statement of Abu Bakr:
He looked at a bird on a tree, then said, "Well done bird ... You eat the fruits, you stand on the trees and you are not accountable to anybody nor indeed can anybody punish you. I wish I was a tree by the road, and that a camel would come along and eat me. then relieve me with his bowel evacuation ... I wish that I had been all that, rather than a human being." Tarikh, Tabari, p 41
al Riyadh al Nadira, vol 1 p 134
Kanz al Ummal, p 361
Minhaj as Sunnah, Ibn Taymiyya, vol 3 p 120

 


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#2 TheIslamHistory

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 06:11 AM

Good point.

By the way, is the Hadith Sahih or hassan? Weak?

If you are able can you Identity its Authenticity?  



#3 zakzaki

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 06:16 AM

Good point.

By the way, is the Hadith Sahih or hassan? Weak?

If you are able can you Identity its Authenticity?  

 

It is mutawatir reported from many sources and besides Ibne Taymiya has included in his minjaj.


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#4 Haydar Husayn

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 06:47 AM

It could be argued that Abu Bakr and Umar were just being modest, so I don't really think this is a good argument.

As for the hadith in question, I always found it interesting how all the names were key players in Saqifa and the Shura that led to the election of Uthman. The hadith therefore very conveniently prevents any serious questions being asked about these events, since in the end they were all promised Jannah, and hence beyond reproach.
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#5 IbnSohan

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 07:09 AM

honest question:

is there a hadith about the 10 who are promised heaven at all?


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#6 zakzaki

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 07:57 AM

It could be argued that Abu Bakr and Umar were just being modest, so I don't really think this is a good argument.

 

 

The difference between the last words of Abubakr and Umar wishing to be stool of animals and Imam Ali (as) is who were the truely succesful ones.  Imam Ali's at his last time said "By the Lord of the Ka'ba, I have succeeded."

 

Even during his lifetime Imam Ali (as) accepted the Caliphate with the condition that he will not follow the sunnah of "sheikhain".  Is that what made him so confident about his success?


honest question:

is there a hadith about the 10 who are promised heaven at all?

 

Al-Hakim narrated - declaring it sahih - from Ibn Mas`ud ® who said the Prophet said: "A man from the dwellers of Paradise is about to come into your sight." Whereupon Abu Bakr came and sat among them.2 The Prophet had already given him the glad tidings of Paradise before that occasion. Meaning: When he said: "Abu Bakr is in Paradise, `Umar is in Paradise, `Uthman is in Paradise, `Ali is in Paradise, Talha is in Paradise, al-Zubayr [ibn al-`Awwam] is in Paradise, `Abd al-Rahman ibn `Awf is in Paradise, Sa`d [ibn Abi Waqqas], Sa`id [ibn Zayd ibn `Amr] is in Paradise, and Abu `Ubayda ibn al-Jarrah is in Paradise."
(Narrated from `Abd al-Rahman ibn `Awf and Sa`id ibn Zayd in the Sunan and Ahmad in his Masnad).
 

 

This hadith gives you the list of 10 people.

1. "Abu Bakr is in Paradise,
2. `Umar is in Paradise,
3. `Uthman is in Paradise,
4. `Ali is in Paradise,
5. Talha is in Paradise,
6. al-Zubayr [ibn al-`Awwam] is in Paradise,
7. `Abd al-Rahman ibn `Awf is in Paradise,
8. Sa`d [ibn Abi Waqqas],
9. Sa`id [ibn Zayd ibn `Amr] is in Paradise, and
10. Abu `Ubayda ibn al-Jarrah is in Paradise."

.


Edited by zakzaki, 14 September 2013 - 08:03 AM.


#7 Abul Hussain Hassani

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 08:15 AM

The hadith of ashra mubashara is a forgery because both Umar and AbuBakr wished they were stools of animals.  If they were sure of Jannath then why they wished to be stools of animals?

 

Statement of Umar:
"I wish I was my family's sheep. They would have fattened me up to the maximum. When they were visited by friends, they would have killed me and roasted part of me, and made qadid (meat cut into strips and dried) from the other part of it, then they would have eaten me, and lastly, they would have relieved me with their bowle evacuation ... I wish I had been all that, rather than a human being."
Minhaj as Sunnah, Ibn Taymiyya, vol 3 p 131
Hilyat al Awliya, Ibn Abi Nuaym, vol 1 p 52 .

A supposed statement of Abu Bakr:
He looked at a bird on a tree, then said, "Well done bird ... You eat the fruits, you stand on the trees and you are not accountable to anybody nor indeed can anybody punish you. I wish I was a tree by the road, and that a camel would come along and eat me. then relieve me with his bowel evacuation ... I wish that I had been all that, rather than a human being." Tarikh, Tabari, p 41
al Riyadh al Nadira, vol 1 p 134
Kanz al Ummal, p 361
Minhaj as Sunnah, Ibn Taymiyya, vol 3 p 120

 

 

(salam)

 

Similar narrations about Ali is also present in Shia books. There is a narration where he cries and wishes that he was not born and his mother didn't give birth to him. Haydar Husayn is correct, this shows their modesty and humbleness even though they were of such great status. 


Edited by Abul Hussain Hassani, 14 September 2013 - 08:18 AM.


#8 zakzaki

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 08:25 AM

(salam)

 

Similar narrations about Ali is also present in Shia books. There is a narration where he cries and wishes that he was not born and his mother didn't give birth to him. Haydar Husayn is correct, this shows their modesty and humbleness even though they were of such great status. 

 

Astagfurllah, Imam Ali (as) never wished to be anybody's stool.

 

Please show the proof if he had said he wished to be anybody's stool (astagfurllah).

 

He died with the promise of Kaaba that he was successful..



#9 IbnSohan

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 08:45 AM

who are the narrators of all the versions of this hadith?


and when was the first mention of this hadith as evidence of the superiority of the three khulafa?


(salam)

 

Similar narrations about Ali is also present in Shia books. There is a narration where he cries and wishes that he was not born and his mother didn't give birth to him. Haydar Husayn is correct, this shows their modesty and humbleness even though they were of such great status. 

that's imam ali zyn al'abdin peace be upon him, he said that when the chains were around his neck, hands and legs then tied to the women behind him and the children as they were taken to Yazid, women were struggling to keep their cover on while carrying the children while they are chained.

Curses on Yazid and those who support him.


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#10 TheIslamHistory

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 08:55 AM

(salam)

 

Similar narrations about Ali is also present in Shia books. There is a narration where he cries and wishes that he was not born and his mother didn't give birth to him. Haydar Husayn is correct, this shows their modesty and humbleness even though they were of such great status. 

 

 

I like how you come up with such Fairy Tales.

State the narration please.

And Do you ignore that Imam Ali (as) was born in the Ka'aba?

I am sorry but your Lying.

(salam)


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#11 Vigilare

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 09:56 AM

Worth remembering that not just those 10 were promised paradise.
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#12 gajarkahalva

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:08 AM

It is funny how thise 10 were promised paradise and also if I am not mistaken, Umar selected a group of 6 people who were to nominate a successor from themselves. The 6 people were: 

Imam Ali a.s

Uthman

Abdur rahman ibn auf

Sad ibn abi waqas

Zubair al awam

Talha

 

Now all these people are also part of the 10 apparently promised paradise. But Umar laid conditions down that if 1 person disagrees with 5, then kill him. If 2 people disagree with the other 4, then kill the 2. If equal on both sides then ibn Auf makes the decision.

 

If the hadith of the 10 promised jannah is true, then Umar must have known about it. But here he is saying that some people who are promised heaven, kill other people who are promised heaven if there is a disagreement on choosing the successor to him. How can it be that all them be in heaven when they could have killed each other? The muderer and the murdered both in heaven? What kind of justice is that? It's obvious that there is no such hadith.

 

This is just one of the many reasons why the promised 10 hadith seems false to me.



#13 TheIslamHistory

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:29 AM

It is funny how thise 10 were promised paradise and also if I am not mistaken, Umar selected a group of 6 people who were to nominate a successor from themselves. The 6 people were: 

Imam Ali a.s

Uthman

Abdur rahman ibn auf

Sad ibn abi waqas

Zubair al awam

Talha

 

Now all these people are also part of the 10 apparently promised paradise. But Umar laid conditions down that if 1 person disagrees with 5, then kill him. If 2 people disagree with the other 4, then kill the 2. If equal on both sides then ibn Auf makes the decision.

 

If the hadith of the 10 promised jannah is true, then Umar must have known about it. But here he is saying that some people who are promised heaven, kill other people who are promised heaven if there is a disagreement on choosing the successor to him. How can it be that all them be in heaven when they could have killed each other? The muderer and the murdered both in heaven? What kind of justice is that? It's obvious that there is no such hadith.

 

This is just one of the many reasons why the promised 10 hadith seems false to me.

 

 

Adding to what you said, how can one of those ten people (eg: Umar) nominate/ Appoint Muwiyah as Caliph and Fight Imam Ali (as)?  Who is also one of the ten?
Seems ironic really...it like Saying "Killing Eachother and We all go to heaven" ???

(salam)


Edited by TheIslamHistory, 14 September 2013 - 11:30 AM.

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#14 skamran110

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:46 AM

Besides the questionable hadith, what convinces that the 10 are guaranteed heaven? Talha and Zubair fought Imam Ali, resulted the killing of hundreds of Muslims at Jamal , and all three of them will be in heaven? History testifies that anyone who fought Hz Ali, was on the wrong path, whether it be the Kufar of mecca, the Jews of Khaiber, the wife of the prophet, Ayesha, or the great companion Muawiya. 

Do you believe that the murderer and the murdered, both will be in paradise even if they opposed each other and fought each other which resulted in killings of their own selves as well as many other Muslims?? 

 

Certainly it cannot be true. This solid argument proves the hadith as fabrication. 


Edited by skamran110, 14 September 2013 - 11:47 AM.

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#15 IbnSohan

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 01:08 PM

how many of those that are included in the list had narrated that hadith? and is there a narrator that is not one of the list that has narrated the hadith?


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#16 Ameen

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 05:54 AM

(salam)
Similar narrations about Ali is also present in Shia books. There is a narration where he cries and wishes that he was not born and his mother didn't give birth to him. Haydar Husayn is correct, this shows their modesty and humbleness even though they were of such great status.


Salaam brother. You said "similar narrations, about Ali (as), are also present in Shia books". Would you mind putting the references forward, as evidence are proof to back your claim.

(salam)
Similar narrations about Ali is also present in Shia books. There is a narration where he cries and wishes that he was not born and his mother didn't give birth to him. Haydar Husayn is correct, this shows their modesty and humbleness even though they were of such great status.


Salaam brother. You said "similar narrations, about Ali (as), are also present in Shia books". Would you mind putting the references forward, as evidence are proof to back your claim.

(salam)
Similar narrations about Ali is also present in Shia books. There is a narration where he cries and wishes that he was not born and his mother didn't give birth to him. Haydar Husayn is correct, this shows their modesty and humbleness even though they were of such great status.


Salaam brother. You said "similar narrations, about Ali (as), are also present in Shia books". Would you mind putting the references forward, as evidence are proof to back your claim.
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#17 Abu Tufayl

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 03:56 PM

(bismillah)

 

If I recall correctly...the most suspicious thing is that all the chains for this "hadith" end in the two same people (Abd al-Rahmān b. `Awf & Sa`īd b. Zayd)...who are themselves in the list of the "Promised Ten." Sa`id b. Zayd is kind of an obscure companion in comparison to the others in that list.

 

It's about as trustworthy as Abu Hurayra narrating how the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله gave him magic memory powers or when he tried to convince the people of Iraq he was not a liar, because the bulk of them thought this according to his own riwayah, by narrating to them a hadith from the Prophet ص vindicating himself... 

 

What does Sayyid Khui رحمه الله say about rijāl narrating virtues about themselves to prove their trustworthiness?

 

أن راوي الرواية هو إبراهيم نفسه، والاستدلال على وثاقة شخص، وعظم رتبته بقول نفسه من الغرائب، بل من المضحكات

 

"That the narrator of the narration is Ibrahim himself and seeking to prove the trustworthiness of a person and the grandeur of his status by his own saying is of the strangest things. Rather, from the [most] laughable things."

 

في أمان الله


Edited by Dar'ul_Islam, 15 September 2013 - 04:01 PM.

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#18 mutazili(wasil)

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 04:07 PM

there's no doubt that there's good isnaad for this hadith but the issue is that this hadith is not logical at all. why limit the number to ten when there's hadiths saying ammar and his family  (ra) will meet in paradise ?

 

also there's hadiths sahih by sunni staandards from "bukhari " saying the prophet never gave glad tidings about entering paradise but to abdullahi ibn salaam? here's the hadith :

 

حدثنا ‏ ‏عبد الله بن يوسف ‏ ‏قال سمعت ‏ ‏مالكا ‏ ‏يحدث عن ‏ ‏أبي النضر ‏ ‏مولى ‏ ‏عمر بن عبيد الله ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عامر بن سعد بن أبي وقاص ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبيه ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏ما سمعت النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏يقول ‏ ‏لأحد يمشي على الأرض إنه من أهل الجنة إلا ‏ ‏لعبد الله بن سلام 

 

the beauty of this hadith is that the narrator is one of the so-called ten heralded paradise :wacko: 

 

saad ibn abi waqqas  said : the prophet never said to anyone walking the face of the earth that he is from the people of paradise but abdullahi ibn salaam ??

 

come on !!!!!!!!


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#19 Abul Hussain Hassani

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 07:49 AM

(bismillah)

 

It's about as trustworthy as Abu Hurayra narrating how the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله gave him magic memory powers or when he tried to convince the people of Iraq he was not a liar, because the bulk of them thought this according to his own riwayah, by narrating to them a hadith from the Prophet ص vindicating himself... 

 

What does Sayyid Khui رحمه الله say about rijāl narrating virtues about themselves to prove their trustworthiness?

 

أن راوي الرواية هو إبراهيم نفسه، والاستدلال على وثاقة شخص، وعظم رتبته بقول نفسه من الغرائب، بل من المضحكات

 

"That the narrator of the narration is Ibrahim himself and seeking to prove the trustworthiness of a person and the grandeur of his status by his own saying is of the strangest things. Rather, from the [most] laughable things."

 

 

في أمان الله

 

 

 

The people of Iraq even thought the same about Ali (ra). It is not just Abu Huraira (ra)

 

Sermon 70

 

In condemnation of the people of Iraq

 

Now then, O ' people(1) of Iraq! You are like the pregnant woman who, on completion of the period of pregnancy delivers a dead child and her husband is also dead and her period of widowhood is long while only remote relation inherits her. By Allah, I did not come to you of my own accord. I came to you by force of circumstances. I have come to know that you say `Ali speaks lie. May Allah fight you! Against whom do I speak lie? Whether against Allah? But I am the first to have believed in him. Whether against His Prophet? But I am the first who testified to him. Certainly not. By Allah it was a way of expression which you failed to appreciate, and you were not capable of it. Woe to you. I am giving out these measures of nice expression free of any cost. I wish there were vessels good enough to hold them.

 

http://www.nahjulbal...l.php?Sermon=70

 

 

 

there's no doubt that there's good isnaad for this hadith but the issue is that this hadith is not logical at all. why limit the number to ten when there's hadiths saying ammar and his family  (ra) will meet in paradise ?

 

also there's hadiths sahih by sunni staandards from "bukhari " saying the prophet never gave glad tidings about entering paradise but to abdullahi ibn salaam? here's the hadith :

 

حدثنا ‏ ‏عبد الله بن يوسف ‏ ‏قال سمعت ‏ ‏مالكا ‏ ‏يحدث عن ‏ ‏أبي النضر ‏ ‏مولى ‏ ‏عمر بن عبيد الله ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عامر بن سعد بن أبي وقاص ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبيه ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏ما سمعت النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏يقول ‏ ‏لأحد يمشي على الأرض إنه من أهل الجنة إلا ‏ ‏لعبد الله بن سلام 

 

the beauty of this hadith is that the narrator is one of the so-called ten heralded paradise :wacko: 

 

saad ibn abi waqqas  said : the prophet never said to anyone walking the face of the earth that he is from the people of paradise but abdullahi ibn salaam ??

 

come on !!!!!!!!

 

He must have said it before the event when Prophet (saw) promised them paradise. 


Salaam brother. You said "similar narrations, about Ali (as), are also present in Shia books". Would you mind putting the references forward, as evidence are proof to back your claim.
 

(wasalam)

 

I don't have it with me now but upon finding it, I will share it, InshaaAllah. 


Edited by Abul Hussain Hassani, 16 September 2013 - 07:51 AM.


#20 Abu Tufayl

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 10:35 AM

(bismillah)

The people of Iraq even thought the same about Ali (ra). It is not just Abu Huraira (ra)

 

Sermon 70

 

In condemnation of the people of Iraq

 

Now then, O ' people(1) of Iraq! You are like the pregnant woman who, on completion of the period of pregnancy delivers a dead child and her husband is also dead and her period of widowhood is long while only remote relation inherits her. By Allah, I did not come to you of my own accord. I came to you by force of circumstances. I have come to know that you say `Ali speaks lie. May Allah fight you! Against whom do I speak lie? Whether against Allah? But I am the first to have believed in him. Whether against His Prophet? But I am the first who testified to him. Certainly not. By Allah it was a way of expression which you failed to appreciate, and you were not capable of it. Woe to you. I am giving out these measures of nice expression free of any cost. I wish there were vessels good enough to hold them.

 

http://www.nahjulbal...l.php?Sermon=70

 

 

 

Thanks for avoiding the real point of my post. People hating Ameer al-Mumineen [as] is well known... you know Nasiba and Khawarij...etc. Also, the statement "he speaks lies" is different than saying "Ali is a liar." The first one in Arabic is also used to just nullify a person's statements as true, although the speaker intends/believes them to really be true. It is attacking his statement, not his character. Also, Ameer al-Mumineen [as] here isn't doing as Abu Hurayra did. He [as] is calling them to attention in remembering what they already know about who he is. While Abu Hurayra had to narrate another tradition/incident to try and help himself.

 

Did you really think a "you too" fallacy would help you here? Both sects agree to the truthfulness of Imam `Ali [as] and the tawatur of his fada'il. Only one clings to that for some other people.

 

I'd also note the suspicious nature of his "hadith" about promised ten having no Ansar.

 

في أمان الله



#21 Abul Hussain Hassani

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 10:37 AM

there's no doubt that there's good isnaad for this hadith but the issue is that this hadith is not logical at all. why limit the number to ten when there's hadiths saying ammar and his family  (ra) will meet in paradise ?

 

also there's hadiths sahih by sunni staandards from "bukhari " saying the prophet never gave glad tidings about entering paradise but to abdullahi ibn salaam? here's the hadith :

 

حدثنا ‏ ‏عبد الله بن يوسف ‏ ‏قال سمعت ‏ ‏مالكا ‏ ‏يحدث عن ‏ ‏أبي النضر ‏ ‏مولى ‏ ‏عمر بن عبيد الله ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عامر بن سعد بن أبي وقاص ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبيه ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏ما سمعت النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏يقول ‏ ‏لأحد يمشي على الأرض إنه من أهل الجنة إلا ‏ ‏لعبد الله بن سلام 

 

the beauty of this hadith is that the narrator is one of the so-called ten heralded paradise :wacko: 

 

saad ibn abi waqqas  said : the prophet never said to anyone walking the face of the earth that he is from the people of paradise but abdullahi ibn salaam ??

 

come on !!!!!!!!

 

one more thing to add, the narration says "I didn't hear" this doesn't mean the Prophet (saw) never said it. I don't know why you didn't translate it properly. 



#22 mutazili(wasil)

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 03:31 PM

ok he didn t here but does this change anything?the hadith was narrated by the son of saad ibn abiwaqqas "amer", now the hadith amer heard it from his father was after the prophet' demise , so are you telling us that ibn masood never heard about his promised paradise but others did?
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#23 Mehek

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 11:47 PM

It could be argued that Abu Bakr and Umar were just being modest, so I don't really think this is a good argument.
 

 

Bro if being somebody's stool is being modest, would you like to be somebody's stool under the same pretext, may be the stool of your country's president?





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