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Why Do Sunnis Fast In Muharram?


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#1 PureEthics

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 04:57 PM

Fasting is a blessing, but at the same time the prophets grandson who he dearly loved died and his family....doesnt it mean when you fast like think Allah for everything? Would the prophet have fasted during the time of his families mourn or even his companions at that matter? I say we shouldnt fast at this month.....

Here is why I say dont fast.....clear proof

http://www.al-islam....astofashura.htm

http://www.al-islam....astofashura.htm

#2 PureEthics

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 09:38 PM

check this out....http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_773237&feature=iv&src_vid=Mhagq3H5Bmk&v=xScJEOb-ucc

#3 kalaam

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 08:25 AM

Well these are some of the narrations from the Shia book, Wasail al Shia regarding fasting on Ashura. Now it is your choice whether you want to follow the sunnah of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and Ali (ra) and Imam Baqir or not.


ãÍãÏ Èä ÇáÍÓä ÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä Úáí Èä ÇáÍÓä Èä ÝÖÇá ¡ Úä íÚÞæÈ Èä íÒíÏ ¡ Úä ÃÈí åãÇã ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÇáÍÓä ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ÞÇá : ÕÇã ÑÓæá Çááå ( Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã ) íæã ÚÇÔæÑÇÁ

1 – Muhammad b. al-Hasan by his isnad from `Ali b. al-Hasan b. Faddal from Ya`qub b. Yazid from Abu Hammam from Abu ‘l-Hasan Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: The Messenger of Allah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã fasted on the day of `Ashura.



æÚäå ¡ Úä åÇÑæä Èä ãÓáã ¡ Úä ãÓÚÏÉ Èä ÕÏÞÉ ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) Úä ÃÈíå ¡ Ãä ÚáíÇ ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ÞÇá : ÕæãæÇ ÇáÚÇÔæÑÇÁ ÇáÊÇÓÚ æÇáÚÇÔÑ ¡ ÝÇäå íßÝÑ ÐäæÈ ÓäÉ


2 – And from him from Harun b. Muslim from Mas`ada b. Sadaqa from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã from his father that `Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said: Fast on `Ashura, the ninth and the tenth, for verily it atones for the sins of a year.


æÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä ÓÚÏ Èä ÚÈÏÇááå ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÌÚÝÑ ¡ Úä ÌÚÝÑ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚÈÏÇááå ¡ Úä ÚÈÏÇááå Èä ãíãæä ÇáÞÏÇÍ ¡ Úä ÌÚÝÑ ¡ Úä ÃÈíå ( ÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã ) ÞÇá : ÕíÇã íæã ÚÇÔæÑÇÁ ßÝÇÑÉ ÓäÉ


3 – And by his isnad from Sa`d b. `Abdullah from Abu Ja`far from Ja`far b. Muhammad b. `Abdullah [Ja`far b. Muhammad b. `Ubaydullah – in at-Tahdhib] from `Abdullah b. Maymun al-Qaddah from Ja`far from his father Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: The fast of the day of `Ashura is an atonement of a year.

Edited by kalaam, 12 November 2012 - 08:27 AM.


#4 goharjanjua

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:35 AM

Trying to make these Sunni's understand anything is in vain !!

#5 Jafar Hussain

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:38 AM

I think Sunnis,shias and salafis' bidah are responsible for islamophoebia.

#6 PureEthics

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:03 PM

Well these are some of the narrations from the Shia book, Wasail al Shia regarding fasting on Ashura. Now it is your choice whether you want to follow the sunnah of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and Ali (ra) and Imam Baqir or not.


ãÍãÏ Èä ÇáÍÓä ÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä Úáí Èä ÇáÍÓä Èä ÝÖÇá ¡ Úä íÚÞæÈ Èä íÒíÏ ¡ Úä ÃÈí åãÇã ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÇáÍÓä ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ÞÇá : ÕÇã ÑÓæá Çááå ( Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã ) íæã ÚÇÔæÑÇÁ

1 – Muhammad b. al-Hasan by his isnad from `Ali b. al-Hasan b. Faddal from Ya`qub b. Yazid from Abu Hammam from Abu ‘l-Hasan Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: The Messenger of Allah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã fasted on the day of `Ashura.



æÚäå ¡ Úä åÇÑæä Èä ãÓáã ¡ Úä ãÓÚÏÉ Èä ÕÏÞÉ ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) Úä ÃÈíå ¡ Ãä ÚáíÇ ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ÞÇá : ÕæãæÇ ÇáÚÇÔæÑÇÁ ÇáÊÇÓÚ æÇáÚÇÔÑ ¡ ÝÇäå íßÝÑ ÐäæÈ ÓäÉ


2 – And from him from Harun b. Muslim from Mas`ada b. Sadaqa from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã from his father that `Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said: Fast on `Ashura, the ninth and the tenth, for verily it atones for the sins of a year.



æÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä ÓÚÏ Èä ÚÈÏÇááå ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÌÚÝÑ ¡ Úä ÌÚÝÑ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚÈÏÇááå ¡ Úä ÚÈÏÇááå Èä ãíãæä ÇáÞÏÇÍ ¡ Úä ÌÚÝÑ ¡ Úä ÃÈíå ( ÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã ) ÞÇá : ÕíÇã íæã ÚÇÔæÑÇÁ ßÝÇÑÉ ÓäÉ


3 – And by his isnad from Sa`d b. `Abdullah from Abu Ja`far from Ja`far b. Muhammad b. `Abdullah [Ja`far b. Muhammad b. `Ubaydullah – in at-Tahdhib] from `Abdullah b. Maymun al-Qaddah from Ja`far from his father Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: The fast of the day of `Ashura is an atonement of a year.


I dont know whether the chains are sahih but ill tell you one thing. You have not read history nor do you know what ashura is. Ashura means tenth of a/any month, originally. If there were hadiths they could be talking about the tenth of "A" month, not the day of ashura in the month of "MUHARRAM" (death of Hussain A.S) because the term changed to also mean Ashura day Imam hussain A.S died. So if for example, if Al-Sadiq A.S was talking about hearing from Ali A.S that fasting on 9/10 of ashura, Ashura can be any month, that doesnt mean its the tenth of Muharram. Plus I guarantee you no imam fasted on the day their grandfather died. Its illogical. Besides the fact the idea of fasting because of Moses story is completlely false. No jew even fasts on the tenth of Muharram nor does any of the chains where sunnis got this hadith works.

Go watch the link i posted and your hadith gets completely annihilated, pure false propaganda against the prophets family.

http://youtu.be/xScJEOb-ucc?t=4m13s
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#7 Ali_Hussain

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:37 PM

I dont know whether the chains are sahih but ill tell you one thing. You have not read history nor do you know what ashura is. Ashura means tenth of a/any month, originally. If there were hadiths they could be talking about the tenth of "A" month, not the day of ashura in the month of "MUHARRAM" (death of Hussain A.S) because the term changed to also mean Ashura day Imam hussain A.S died. So if for example, if Al-Sadiq A.S was talking about hearing from Ali A.S that fasting on 9/10 of ashura, Ashura can be any month, that doesnt mean its the tenth of Muharram. Plus I guarantee you no imam fasted on the day their grandfather died. Its illogical. Besides the fact the idea of fasting because of Moses story is completlely false. No jew even fasts on the tenth of Muharram nor does any of the chains where sunnis got this hadith works.

Go watch the link i posted and your hadith gets completely annihilated, pure false propaganda against the prophets family.

http://youtu.be/xScJEOb-ucc?t=4m13s


To be fair, we also have these narrations.

5 – And by his isnad from `Ali b. al-Hasan from Muhammad b. `Abdullah b. Zurara from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Abi Nasr from Aban b. `Uthman al-Ahmar from Kathir an-Nawa from Abu Ja`far Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: The ark adhere to al-Judi on the day of `Ashura, so Nuh Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã commanded whoever was with him from the jinn and man to fast on that day. Abu Ja`far Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said: Do you know what this day is? This is the day in which Allah ÚÒ æÌá forgave Adam and Hawa. And this is the day in which the sea was split for the Children of Israel and Fir`awn and whoever was with him drowned. And this is the day in which Musa Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã defeated Fir`awn. And this is the day in which Ibrahim Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã was born. And this is the day in which Allah forgave the people of Yunus. And this is the day in which `Isa b. Maryam Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã was born. And this is the day in which the Qa’im Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã will rise.

The argument about ashura just meaning the tenth is very weak, because you see Imam al-Sadiq Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã and al-Baqir Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã narrating a lot of them, so do you think they did not know the significance of ashura?


If you look at the titles of the chapters about fasting on ashura, it clearly isn't supposed to be joyful.


Desirability of the fast of the ninth and the tenth of Muharram with grief

http://www.tashayyu....asts/chapter-20

Edited by Ali_Hussain, 13 November 2012 - 12:37 PM.


#8 PureEthics

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:51 PM

That is just an informational hadith, that doesnt say we should fast. Plus dude, the argument isnt weak....it literally means 10th day......watch my video I have posted, but in conclusion, whether what ever good happens on this day, does not overcome the death of imam husaain. We have millions of hadith stating we should mourn by our imams. They also say if you fast, fast because imam hussain didnt have any food or water, but when you do break it before the hour before sunset because that is when he got killed. You cant keep your fast till sunset you have to break it before.

#9 Agha-Shabbir-Abbas

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 02:46 AM

Salaam,

This is controversial see what Imam Al-Khoei has stated:
http://al-khoei.us/b...dex.php?id=3258
http://al-khoei.us/b...dex.php?id=3259

#10 kalaam

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 04:51 AM

Khoi says in the link you gave

ÝÇáÑæÇíÇÊ ÇáäÇåíÉ ÛíÑ äÞíøÉ ÇáÓÜäÏ ÈÑãøÊåÇ ¡ Èá åí ÖÚíÝÉ ÈÃÌãÚåÇ ¡ ÝáíÓÊ áÏíäÇ ÑæÇíÉ ãÚÊÈÑÉ íÚÊãÏ ÚáíåÇ áíÍãá ÇáãÚÇÑÖ Úáì ÇáÊÞíøÉ ßãÇ ÕäÚå ÕÇÍÈ ÇáÍÏÇÆÞ . æÃãøÇ ÇáÑæÇíÇÊ ÇáãÊÖãøäÉ ááÃãÑ æÇÓÊÍÈÇÈ ÇáÕæã Ýí åÐÇ Çáíæã ÝßËíÑÉ ¡ ãËá: ÕÍíÍÉ ÇáÞÏøÇÍ : «ÕíÇã íæã ÚÇÔæÑÇÁ ßÝøÇÑÉ ÓäÉ

The narrations of prohibition (of fasting on this day) are all weak, we don't have any authentic narration which we can present to place it against the taqiyyah opinion, and as far as the narrations of istihbab of of fast on this day, so they are plenty, for example the sahih narration of Qaddah : the fast of Ashura is atonement for the year.

#11 Islamic Salvation

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 07:08 AM

Well these are some of the narrations from the Shia book, Wasail al Shia regarding fasting on Ashura. Now it is your choice whether you want to follow the sunnah of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and Ali (ra) and Imam Baqir or not.


ãÍãÏ Èä ÇáÍÓä ÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä Úáí Èä ÇáÍÓä Èä ÝÖÇá ¡ Úä íÚÞæÈ Èä íÒíÏ ¡ Úä ÃÈí åãÇã ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÇáÍÓä ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ÞÇá : ÕÇã ÑÓæá Çááå ( Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã ) íæã ÚÇÔæÑÇÁ

1 – Muhammad b. al-Hasan by his isnad from `Ali b. al-Hasan b. Faddal from Ya`qub b. Yazid from Abu Hammam from Abu ‘l-Hasan Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: The Messenger of Allah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã fasted on the day of `Ashura.




æÚäå ¡ Úä åÇÑæä Èä ãÓáã ¡ Úä ãÓÚÏÉ Èä ÕÏÞÉ ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) Úä ÃÈíå ¡ Ãä ÚáíÇ ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ÞÇá : ÕæãæÇ ÇáÚÇÔæÑÇÁ ÇáÊÇÓÚ æÇáÚÇÔÑ ¡ ÝÇäå íßÝÑ ÐäæÈ ÓäÉ

2 – And from him from Harun b. Muslim from Mas`ada b. Sadaqa from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã from his father that `Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said: Fast on `Ashura, the ninth and the tenth, for verily it atones for the sins of a year.




æÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä ÓÚÏ Èä ÚÈÏÇááå ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÌÚÝÑ ¡ Úä ÌÚÝÑ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚÈÏÇááå ¡ Úä ÚÈÏÇááå Èä ãíãæä ÇáÞÏÇÍ ¡ Úä ÌÚÝÑ ¡ Úä ÃÈíå ( ÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã ) ÞÇá : ÕíÇã íæã ÚÇÔæÑÇÁ ßÝÇÑÉ ÓäÉ

3 – And by his isnad from Sa`d b. `Abdullah from Abu Ja`far from Ja`far b. Muhammad b. `Abdullah [Ja`far b. Muhammad b. `Ubaydullah – in at-Tahdhib] from `Abdullah b. Maymun al-Qaddah from Ja`far from his father Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: The fast of the day of `Ashura is an atonement of a year.



All of these narrations are weak.


5 – And by his isnad from `Ali b. al-Hasan from Muhammad b. `Abdullah b. Zurara from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Abi Nasr from Aban b. `Uthman al-Ahmar from Kathir an-Nawa from Abu Ja`far Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: The ark adhere to al-Judi on the day of `Ashura, so Nuh Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã commanded whoever was with him from the jinn and man to fast on that day. Abu Ja`far Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said: Do you know what this day is? This is the day in which Allah ÚÒ æÌá forgave Adam and Hawa. And this is the day in which the sea was split for the Children of Israel and Fir`awn and whoever was with him drowned. And this is the day in which Musa Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã defeated Fir`awn. And this is the day in which Ibrahim Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã was born. And this is the day in which Allah forgave the people of Yunus. And this is the day in which `Isa b. Maryam Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã was born. And this is the day in which the Qa’im Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã will rise




This is a very weak Hadith, Kathir al-Nawa is an accursed individual, and from the figureheads of the Zaydi Batriyya, from whom Abu Abdillah made Tabarra, thus it can never be accepted.
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#12 kalaam

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 07:15 AM

All of these narrations are weak.


who said?

#13 Islamic Salvation

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 07:53 AM

æÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä ÓÚÏ Èä ÚÈÏÇááå ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÌÚÝÑ ¡ Úä ÌÚÝÑ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚÈíÏÇááå ¡ Úä ÚÈÏÇááå Èä ãíãæä ÇáÞÏÇÍ ¡ Úä ÌÚÝÑ ¡ Úä ÃÈíå ( ÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã ) ÞÇá : ÕíÇã íæã ÚÇÔæÑÇÁ ßÝÇÑÉ ÓäÉ

There is no Tawthiq for Ja'far b. Muhammad b. Ubaydullah.


æÚäå ¡ Úä åÇÑæä Èä ãÓáã ¡ Úä ãÓÚÏÉ Èä ÕÏÞÉ ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) Úä ÃÈíå ¡ Ãä ÚáíÇ ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ÞÇá : ÕæãæÇ ÇáÚÇÔæÑÇÁ ÇáÊÇÓÚ æÇáÚÇÔÑ ¡ ÝÇäå íßÝÑ ÐäæÈ ÓäÉ

There is no Tawthiq for Mas`ada, unless you consider all the narrators of Tafsir al-Qummi Mawthuqin, and this not the famous opinion in the Madhab, thus countless scholars rule him as Majhul.

But even if you go with al-Khoei and rule Mas`ada Thiqah, then the path of at-Tusi to Ali b. al-Hassan b. Fadhal is weak.


ãÍãÏ Èä ÇáÍÓä ÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä Úáí Èä ÇáÍÓä Èä ÝÖÇá¡ Úä íÚÞæÈ Èä íÒíÏ ¡ Úä ÃÈí åãÇã ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÇáÍÓä ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ÞÇá : ÕÇã ÑÓæá Çááå ( Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã ) íæã ÚÇÔæÑÇÁ

Again, the chain of at-Tusi to Ali b. al-Hassan b. Fadhal is weak.

Edited by Islamic Salvation, 24 November 2012 - 08:12 AM.


#14 kalaam

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 10:57 AM

There is no Tawthiq for Mas`ada, unless you consider all the narrators of Tafsir al-Qummi Mawthuqin, and this not the famous opinion in the Madhab, thus countless scholars rule him as Majhul.

But even if you go with al-Khoei and rule Mas`ada Thiqah, then the path of at-Tusi to Ali b. al-Hassan b. Fadhal is weak.


Mas'ada's narration has been authenticated by

1. Al jawahiri in jawahirul kalaam 35/224
2. Sayyid Muhammad Sadiq Ruhani in al Masail p. 149
3. Shaikh Ansari in Kitab us salat p. 114
4. Fayz Qasani in Usul al asaliya p. 84
5. Khomeini in al rasail 2/191
6. Shaikh Isfahani in al bayan p. 90
7. Shaikh Waheed Khorasani in Minhaj us saliheen 2/417
8. Aqa Hemdani in Misbahul faqih 2/244
9. Sayyid Khwansari in Jami ul Madarik 1/325
10. Muhaqqiq Bahrani in al Hadaiq al nadhira 5/280

etc

So his narration regarding fasting on ashura is also authentic according to these scholars.

Edited by kalaam, 24 November 2012 - 11:00 AM.


#15 Islamic Salvation

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 04:23 PM

^

I do not accept a Muta'akhir's Tawthiq, show a Mutaqadim who has made Tawthiq of him, and you will find that there is none.

Allamah Hilli makes Tadhi'f of him and so does Allamah Majlisi, but even their opinion does not hold weight, since they are from the Muta'akhirin.

Many consider him Majhul due to this.

The only thing in his favour is that he is a narrator in Tafsir al-Qummi, that is all that is used to make Tawthiq of him, and it is a flimsy and weak source of strengthening, which many scholars disagree with.

Can you bring any other reason for his Tawthiq?

As I said, even if you accept Mas`ada's Tawthiq due to him being a narrator in Tafsir al-Qummi, and there are a lot of scholars who have rejected this notion, there is still the problem of the path of at-Tusi to Ali b. al-Hasan b. Fadhal, which makes the Hadith Dhaif.

And you have not addresed that point.
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#16 Dar'ul_Islam

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 05:44 PM

(bismillah)

ãÍãÏ Èä ÇáÍÓä ÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä Úáí Èä ÇáÍÓä Èä ÝÖÇá¡ Úä íÚÞæÈ Èä íÒíÏ ¡ Úä ÃÈí åãÇã ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÇáÍÓä ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ÞÇá : ÕÇã ÑÓæá Çááå ( Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã ) íæã ÚÇÔæÑÇÁ

Again, the chain of at-Tusi to Ali b. al-Hassan b. Fadhal is weak.


Even if one were to consider this one authentic, it doesn't mean anything. The authentic narration about this from Zurara [ra] confirm it was practiced and then abrogated. So he [sawa] did fast it, true, but then he [sawa] abandoned it.

Even the other ones one have explanation that don't require rijali tahqeeq (Mas`ada is an `ammi or zaydi, taqiyya is a high possibility).

Ýí ÇãÇä Çááå
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#17 kalaam

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:56 PM

I do not accept a Muta'akhir's Tawthiq, show a Mutaqadim who has made Tawthiq of him, and you will find that there is none.

Allamah Hilli makes Tadhi'f of him and so does Allamah Majlisi, but even their opinion does not hold weight, since they are from the Muta'akhirin.

Many consider him Majhul due to this.

The only thing in his favour is that he is a narrator in Tafsir al-Qummi, that is all that is used to make Tawthiq of him, and it is a flimsy and weak source of strengthening, which many scholars disagree with.

Can you bring any other reason for his Tawthiq?

As I said, even if you accept Mas`ada's Tawthiq due to him being a narrator in Tafsir al-Qummi, and there are a lot of scholars who have rejected this notion, there is still the problem of the path of at-Tusi to Ali b. al-Hasan b. Fadhal, which makes the Hadith Dhaif.

And you have not addresed that point.



Frankly speaking, there are more than a dozen giant Shia scholars authenticating his narrations, and you tell me you don't accept his tawthiq because it was for this or that reason? Anyhow, my point is proved, this narration is authentic according to giant Shia scholars which includes Khomeini and al Khoi. Whether you accept it or not, I have no problem with it.

#18 Dar'ul_Islam

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 09:23 PM

(bismillah)

Frankly speaking, there are more than a dozen giant Shia scholars authenticating his narrations, and you tell me you don't accept his tawthiq because it was for this or that reason? Anyhow, my point is proved, this narration is authentic according to giant Shia scholars which includes Khomeini and al Khoi. Whether you accept it or not, I have no problem with it.


Kalaam, you seem not to be a Salafi (ie those devoid of any understanding regarding usool al-fiqh) so I hope you can see beyond "weak" and "reliable" chains. Simply because they have authenticated these narrations, does not mean they believe they have hujjiyya. Our usool and `ilm of hadeeth is different from Sunnism's version especially in light of the other narrations that explain these other narrations.

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#19 kalaam

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 10:13 PM

Kalaam, you seem not to be a Salafi (ie those devoid of any understanding regarding usool al-fiqh) so I hope you can see beyond "weak" and "reliable" chains. Simply because they have authenticated these narrations, does not mean they believe they have hujjiyya. Our usool and `ilm of hadeeth is different from Sunnism's version especially in light of the other narrations that explain these other narrations.


Didn't many Shia scholars say the fast of Ashura is mustahab?

#20 Islamic Salvation

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:49 AM

Frankly speaking, there are more than a dozen giant Shia scholars authenticating his narrations, and you tell me you don't accept his tawthiq because it was for this or that reason? Anyhow, my point is proved, this narration is authentic according to giant Shia scholars which includes Khomeini and al Khoi. Whether you accept it or not, I have no problem with it.


Do not look at people, look at their reasons.

Even today, if I told you, for example, that al-Albani has made Tawthiq of X, you will not rest assured, rather you will check his Tahqiq and look upon what he bases his Tawthiq from the past scholars.

When you look at the reason for the Tawthiq of Mas`ada, then there is nothing to support it except for:

1. al-Majlisi I said his Ahadith are similar to the narrations of the Thiqat, so we can accept them.

2. He is a narrator in Tafsir al-Qummi.

3. He is one and the same with the clearly Thiqah Mas`ada b. Ziyad.

Now these three reasons are not at all strong, therefore the man remains Majhul for a lot of scholars and his Ahadith not Mu'tabar.

#21 Islamic Salvation

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:17 AM

(bismillah)

Even if one were to consider this one authentic, it doesn't mean anything. The authentic narration about this from Zurara [ra] confirm it was practiced and then abrogated. So he [sawa] did fast it, true, but then he [sawa] abandoned it.

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Yes, the Hadith of Abu Hammam does not prove anything, as you have rightly mentioned, the Sahiha of Zurara shows that the practise of fasting was Matruk after the legislation of the fast of Ramadhan.

Even the other ones one have explanation that don't require rijali tahqeeq (Mas`ada is an `ammi or zaydi, taqiyya is a high possibility).


al-Khoei rules that the Mas`ada who is A'mmi and Zaydi Batri is not this one, rather he is the one who is the companion of Imam al-Baqir, and he is different from this Mas`ada who is a companion of as-Sadiq.

Though others consider them the same person.

All three Hadith quoted are Ghayr Mu'tabar.

1. The first one due to Ja'far b. Muhammad b. Ubaydallah.

2. The second one due to Mas`ada AND the chain of at-Tusi to Ali b. al-Hasan b. Fadhal.

3. Due to the chain of at-Tusi to Ali b. al-Hasan b. Fadhal.

Edited by Islamic Salvation, 25 November 2012 - 01:24 AM.


#22 kalaam

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 03:51 AM

Do not look at people, look at their reasons.

Even today, if I told you, for example, that al-Albani has made Tawthiq of X, you will not rest assured, rather you will check his Tahqiq and look upon what he bases his Tawthiq from the past scholars.

When you look at the reason for the Tawthiq of Mas`ada, then there is nothing to support it except for:

1. al-Majlisi I said his Ahadith are similar to the narrations of the Thiqat, so we can accept them.

2. He is a narrator in Tafsir al-Qummi.

3. He is one and the same with the clearly Thiqah Mas`ada b. Ziyad.

Now these three reasons are not at all strong, therefore the man remains Majhul for a lot of scholars and his Ahadith not Mu'tabar.


The knowledgeable Shias will know that if we go on asking the reason for the tawthiq of every narrator, there will be plenty of thiqa narrators for whom we will not be able to find any reason for their tawthiq. So you will have to discard them, and this would create a huge mess. More than ten shia top scholars considering the narrations of mas'ada as authentic is no joke to discard easily.

al-Khoei rules that the Mas`ada who is A'mmi and Zaydi Batri is not this one, rather he is the one who is the companion of Imam al-Baqir, and he is different from this Mas`ada who is a companion of as-Sadiq.

Though others consider them the same person.

All three Hadith quoted are Ghayr Mu'tabar.

1. The first one due to Ja'far b. Muhammad b. Ubaydallah.

2. The second one due to Mas`ada AND the chain of at-Tusi to Ali b. al-Hasan b. Fadhal.

3. Due to the chain of at-Tusi to Ali b. al-Hasan b. Fadhal.


al Khoi did authentication of this very hadith of mas'ada and mas'ada was thiqah according to him, see his books, so there might be more than one mas'ada but the mas'ada here is the one who is thiqah according to al Khoi.

#23 Dar'ul_Islam

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:21 AM

(bismillah)

The knowledgeable Shias will know that if we go on asking the reason for the tawthiq of every narrator, there will be plenty of thiqa narrators for whom we will not be able to find any reason for their tawthiq. So you will have to discard them, and this would create a huge mess. More than ten shia top scholars considering the narrations of mas'ada as authentic is no joke to discard easily.


To each their own usool of rijal and dirayah.

Khoi did authentication of this very hadith of mas'ada and mas'ada was thiqah according to him, see his books, so there might be more than one mas'ada but the mas'ada here is the one who is thiqah according to al Khoi.


al-Khui [rh] originally did give Mas`ada b. Sadaqa tawtheeq, yes. However, this tawtheeq was upon the basis of his narrating in Tafsir al-Qummi, which is a position he went against and returned from at the end of his life, which is why you find his books affirming this older position of his.

Not saying I agree with all the rijal stuff being said here, but this is just what it is about al-Khui [ra].

As to "many" Shi'a scholars affirming istihbaab for fast of Ashura, I have found no such thing. The majority if not all seem to condemn it and/or say it has no special importance due to its abrogation and matrook status, as far as I know.

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#24 Vigilare

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 07:13 AM

As to "many" Shi'a scholars affirming istihbaab for fast of Ashura, I have found no such thing. The majority if not all seem to condemn it and/or say it has no special importance due to its abrogation and matrook status, as far as I know.


What I find really sad is the fact that far too many shias flatly deny this fast was ever kept in the first place. To deny the link to the Jews is one thing, but to deny a sunnah of the Prophet (albeit perhaps an aboragated one) just to oppose sunnis is ridiculous.

#25 Chaotic Muslem

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 07:25 AM

What I find really sad is the fact that far too many shias flatly deny this fast was ever kept in the first place. To deny the link to the Jews is one thing, but to deny a sunnah of the Prophet (albeit perhaps an aboragated one) just to oppose sunnis is ridiculous.

maybe they did not know better? give them 70 excuses ,teach them and ask hedayah and guidance for them?
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