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Sunnis And Shias- Can We Just Unite...?

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The Imamiyya agree that whoever denies the Imamate of one of the Imams and rejects what Allah تعالى has obligated him of the imperative of obedience, then he is a kafir, astray, deserving of eternity in the Fire.
 

The rejection is how Shaytan reject to bow to Adam, he knew it is truth but because of jealousy and enviousness he reject it. 

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29 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

Akhbaris are Jaahils. They are disowned by our entire community. Clearly stating , they are out of bounds to be considered as the follower of 12ver school of thought.

We must understand that the akhbaries are our brother in Islam, just misguided.

Their literature is extremely persuasive and even attractive to the uninitiated. This 400 yr old dead philosophy had been reintroduced by mere chance amd the pervasive way in which their literature is being freely distributed is mere coincidence. OR Yasser Habib is able to have expensive Satellite broadcasting equipment, can take over a small British town, and is viciously aggressive towards Sunnis and their leaders.

These Are paid for and planned activities designed to foment fassaad and fitnah.

The same way wahabism,qadianis, and bhai were introduced as splintering movements. So when you play into hands of the puppet master and yourself  "QUO VADIS"

Who benefits from Muslims, imamis, and shia  movements being splintered.

Who is threatened by our Unity, who has encouraged Muslims to fight amongst themselves, who would be more vulnerable if we become United.

 

always ask not just what is being said, but what is the motivation and implication of such speech.

Critical thinking skills used to be plentiful in the Muslim Ummah, let's revive that.

 

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4 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

I don't accept chainless hadiths

I didn't include the chain in english, sorry.

دَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ الْبَرْقِيِّ عَنْ أَبِي هَاشِمٍ دَاوُدَ بْنِ الْقَاسِمِ الْجَعْفَرِيِّ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ الثَّانِي

A group from our companions, from Ahmad bin Muhammad al-Barqi, from Abi Hashim Dawud bin Qasim al-Ja'fari, from Abi Ja'far the second (al-Jawad (as))

5 hours ago, Hasani Samnani said:

MY dear respected brother Mansur, the word used by The Grand Ayatullah is MUKHALIFEEN  , this does not refer our Sunnie brothers, please read the original Arabic,

Yes Sunni laymen are innocent, however their "respected figures," are not.

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28 minutes ago, Mansur Bakhtiari said:

I didn't include the chain in english, sorry.

دَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ الْبَرْقِيِّ عَنْ أَبِي هَاشِمٍ دَاوُدَ بْنِ الْقَاسِمِ الْجَعْفَرِيِّ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ الثَّانِي

A group from our companions, from Ahmad bin Muhammad al-Barqi, from Abi Hashim Dawud bin Qasim al-Ja'fari, from Abi Ja'far the second (al-Jawad (as))

Yes Sunni laymen are innocent, however their "respected figures," are not.

(2:94) Say to them, "If the abode of the Hereafter with Allah is exclusively reserved for you and not for the rest of mankind, then you should long for death, if you arc sincere in your claim."

 

If you are sincere then there's no problem in killing you Shia. Embrace the hereafter.

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http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235006908-sunnis-and-shias-can-we-just-unite/?page=4&tab=comments#comment-3097753

Show me an intelligent /moral/ethical Human who would agree with

Usurping another's right or property by force.( Injustice)

Loves both Oppressor and the Oppressed.

Loves both the murderer and the murdered.

Loves both the Traitor and the Country

Loves both the Truth and the falsehood

Either this Human is confused or a Hypocrite.

 

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7 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

(2:94) Say to them, "If the abode of the Hereafter with Allah is exclusively reserved for you and not for the rest of mankind, then you should long for death, if you arc sincere in your claim."

 

If you are sincere then there's no problem in killing you Shia. Embrace the hereafter.

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235006908-sunnis-and-shias-can-we-just-unite/?page=4&tab=comments#comment-3097753

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5 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

[EDIT]

وَإِذْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ النَّبِيِّينَ لَمَا آتَيْتُكُمْ مِنْ كِتَابٍ وَحِكْمَةٍ ثُمَّ جَاءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ مُصَدِّقٌ لِمَا مَعَكُمْ لَتُؤْمِنُنَّ بِهِ وَلَتَنْصُرُنَّهُ ۚ قَالَ أَأَقْرَرْتُمْ وَأَخَذْتُمْ عَلَىٰ ذَٰلِكُمْ إِصْرِي ۖ قَالُوا أَقْرَرْنَا ۚ قَالَ فَاشْهَدُوا وَأَنَا مَعَكُمْ مِنَ الشَّاهِدِينَ {81}

[Shakir 3:81] And when Allah made a covenant through the prophets: Certainly what I have given you of Book and wisdom-- then an messenger comes to you verifying that which is with you, you must believe in him, and you must aid him. He said: Do you affirm and accept My compact in this (matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you.
[Pickthal 3:81] When Allah made (His) covenant with the prophets, (He said): Behold that which I have given you of the Scripture and knowledge. And afterward there will come unto you a messenger, confirming that which ye possess. Ye shall believe in him and ye shall help him. He said: Do ye agree, and will ye take up My burden (which I lay upon you) in this (matter)? They answered: We agree. He said: Then bear ye witness. I will be a witness with you.
[Yusufali 3:81] Behold! Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying: "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you a messenger, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help." Allah said: "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."

*****

مَا كَانَ مُحَمَّدٌ أَبَا أَحَدٍ مِنْ رِجَالِكُمْ وَلَٰكِنْ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَخَاتَمَ النَّبِيِّينَ ۗ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمًا {40}

[Shakir 33:40] Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.
[Pickthal 33:40] Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things.
[Yusufali 33:40] Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

*****

Relevant part of the Verse:

النَّبِيُّ أَوْلَىٰ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ مِنْ أَنْفُسِهِمْ ۖ وَأَزْوَاجُهُ أُمَّهَاتُهُمْ ۗ }

[Shakir 33:6] The Prophet has a greater claim on the faithful than they have on themselves, .....
[Yusufali 33:6] The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves, .......

[Yusufali 33:6] The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves, 

*****

At Ghadir Khumm, 

"Then the Messenger of Allah continued: 

"Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?"  

People cried and answered: 

"Yes, O' Messenger of God."

Then followed the key sentence denoting the clear designation of 'Ali as the leader of the Muslim ummah.  The Prophet held up the hand of 'Ali and said: 

"For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla)."

https://www.al-islam.org/ghadir/incident.htm

At Ghadir Khum, Question was asked(33:6), Muslims Answered. Seal of the Prophets, and the Witness over ALL Prophets( 3:81).

Mawla here means what? 

Does this mean, Mawla only in delivering revelation?

What does More right over the Believers( All Past Prophets and believers present at Ghadir Khumm).

Now the question is:

Lets see if the calls for Unity are real.

Are the Muslims united or disunited.

1) Messenger, only in Delivering Revelation. Rest, only a human like us, others an have better judgement,  opinions in leadership,preserving Quran, etc..

2) Messenger, but Book of Allah(awj)  is sufficient for us

3) Mawla in All comprehensive and Complete sense. (Prophet/Messenger/Imam-Khaliftullah Vicegerent of Allah(awj) without limitation of time and space - All my affairs- as Islam is the same as our Nature, as its a Way of life not only a personal relationship with  Allah(awj). 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235006908-sunnis-and-shias-can-we-just-unite/?page=4&tab=comments#comment-3097753

Edited by Hameedeh
Inappropriate post in the quote was removed.

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8 hours ago, Hasani Samnani said:

We must understand that the akhbaries are our brother in Islam, just misguided.

Their literature is extremely persuasive and even attractive to the uninitiated. This 400 yr old dead philosophy had been reintroduced by mere chance amd the pervasive way in which their literature is being freely distributed is mere coincidence. OR Yasser Habib is able to have expensive Satellite broadcasting equipment, can take over a small British town, and is viciously aggressive towards Sunnis and their leaders.

These Are paid for and planned activities designed to foment fassaad and fitnah.

The same way wahabism,qadianis, and bhai were introduced as splintering movements. So when you play into hands of the puppet master and yourself  "QUO VADIS"

Who benefits from Muslims, imamis, and shia  movements being splintered.

Who is threatened by our Unity, who has encouraged Muslims to fight amongst themselves, who would be more vulnerable if we become United.

always ask not just what is being said, but what is the motivation and implication of such speech.

Critical thinking skills used to be plentiful in the Muslim Ummah, let's revive that.

Exactly. They are paid agents and all are disowned by our community. Sunnis misunderstand us and consider that Akhbaris, Nusairis and Yasir and his Co. represent Shiism.

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10 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

The verse is addressing Kaffirs. Only a follower of Ibn Muljam will use that verse on Muslims. Are you calling me a Kaffir?

I never told you kafir. Do you have comprehension problem? I didn't even quote you while mentioning that verse. That verse I presented was in response to brother shadow_of_lights comment on cursing being immoral. 

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7 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

I'm sorry to hear that someone has implied what you are not. Do you believe in Islam? If so, you are not a kaffar. And people who say you are are just talking out of their behinds. 

As far as I can see, no one called him kafir. I just presented a verse and he took upon himself. If you go through last 3 pages, this guy is playing with us sometimes stating that shias stole the shoes during Prophet's time and sometimes falsely claiming that someone called him kafir. He is actually having a popcorn time seeing shias fighting with each other on some petty issues. 

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9 hours ago, Mansur Bakhtiari said:

Al-Majlisi (ra) says the hadith is Sahih (Mirat al-Uqool, Volume 11, Page 77)

Sayed al-Khoei (ra) also says:

Misbah al Fuqaha Volume 2 Page 11:  It has been proven in the narrations and Ziyarat and supplications that it is permissible to curse the ones who oppose us, and that it is obligatory to disown them, and increase their insults, and accuse them, and slander them, meaning to curse them because they are from the people of innovation and doubt. 

What you are saying (the bold part) is in contradiction with Quran.

Quran orders us to be just even towards the enemies. Isnt accusing them of doing what they havent done, unjust?

I dont have Hawza education but as far as I know we cannot issue a general rule from a single non-motawater narration which is in contradiction to Quran and other narrations and ethics even if its sanad is authentic.

Moreover, rijal books are not errorless like Quran. They were written by fallible people so maybe their content is not 100% correct.

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Al-Kulayni, Kitab al-Kafi, Volume two, Page 375

4 - محمد بن يحيى، عن محمد بن الحسين، عن أحمد بن محمد بن أبي نصر، عن داود ابن سرحان، عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) قال: قال رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله): إذا رأيتم أهل الريب والبدع من بعدي فأظهر والبراءة منهم وأكثروا من سبهم والقول فيهم والوقيعة وباهتوهم (2) كيلا يطمعوا في الفساد في الاسلام ويحذرهم الناس ولا يتعلمون من بدعهم يكتب الله لكم بذلك الحسنات ويرفع لكم به الدرجات في الآخرة.

مباهته in the above narration can have another meaning: amazing someone by bringing strong arguments.

فإن قيل: يحدث بنفسه فقد باهتوا العقل الصريح بضرورة حكمه بأن ما لم يكن فكان احتاج إلى محدث مكون (نهایه الاقدام)

 

اصحاب انكار ومباهته ان احتججت عليهم بان الله واحد قالوا (عیون اخبارالرضا)

باهتوهم  : جادلوهم وأسكتوهم واقطعوا الكلام عليهم. أو المراد به إلزامهم بالحجج البالغة ؛ لينقطعواويبهتوا وجعلهم متحيّرين لا يحيرون جواباً ، كما بهت الذي كفر في محاجّة إبراهيم عليه‌السلام (footnotes of Kafi)

 

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Surah 5:

O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm for Allah, witnesses in justice, and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what you do.

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In Quran Allah says to prophet (pbuh) that there is no need to harm yourself for guidance of people it's just needs that you transfer& announce the word of Allah to people by forcing people don't accept anything but we must stop spreading false word & act from unbelievers &extremists& hypocrites 

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There is no compulsion in Religion.

Having said that, We are been accused of being anti Unity.

What does Unity means. 


1)Living a peaceful life with other Humans, we all do that. (Christians, Jews, Hindus., Atheist, Agnostics live, go to school and work).

This is call coexistence not unity.No shared common Vision. 

2)Team, Corporation, Army has unity. Unity of Purpose, goal and Vision and they work towards it.

If there is no unity of purpose, goal and Vision a team, a corporation and Army will fail.

So, in which sense we are looking of Unity here.

In (1), live and let live works.

In (2) you need to have a discussion and come to a shared agreed upon goal and vision. In this context, It can’t be and is not called imposing your view on others.

So, if we were to be a team with same goal and vision, we need to discuss the Actual cause(s) of disunity.

If people are not willing to discuss and present argument to support their view, what are we really looking for? In reality Looking for option ( 1). In this case We are not a team, do not share the same goal and vision.

We do not agree on Prophethood, and are not willing to engage in an academic discussion. So, what is this thread about? If we can’t have Unity on this important point. There are obvious disagreements, there are two major parties with divergence basic fundamental view(s) and  this difference leads to different version of reality and these differences  will play themselves out in political arena/exploited by internal and external enemies.  

It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

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43 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

There is no compulsion in Religion.

Having said that, We are been accused of being anti Unity.

What does Unity means. 


1)Living a peaceful life with other Humans, we all do that. (Christians, Jews, Hindus., Atheist, Agnostics live, go to school and work).

This is call coexistence not unity.No shared common Vision. 

2)Team, Corporation, Army has unity. Unity of Purpose, goal and Vision and they work towards it.

If there is no unity of purpose, goal and Vision a team, a corporation and Army will fail.

So, in which sense we are looking of Unity here.

In (1), live and let live works.

In (2) you need to have a discussion and come to a shared agreed upon goal and vision. In this context, It can’t be and is not called imposing your view on others.

So, if we were to be a team with same goal and vision, we need to discuss the Actual cause(s) of disunity.

If people are not willing to discuss and present argument to support their view, what are we really looking for? In reality Looking for option ( 1). In this case We are not a team, do not share the same goal and vision.

We do not agree on Prophethood, and are not willing to engage in an academic discussion. So, what is this thread about? If we can’t have Unity on this important point. There are obvious disagreements, there are two major parties with divergence basic fundamental view(s) and  this difference leads to different version of reality and these differences  will play themselves out in political arena/exploited by internal and external enemies.  

It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

The basis for Unity (I AGAIN REPEAT) is - Saving the Muslim Ummah from tafarka (disunity) so that no Global power can rule over us , oppress us as it is clearly happening in the Entire Muslim World Today.

Unite together to fight the oppressor. Thats it. In it lies our safety too, the safety of Shias.

Most Sunnis are against Wahhabi Ideology too. We can unite to eradicate such school of thought too just like Sunnis are united against Ahmadis and Shias as united against those who do Ghulu.

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Most Sunnis countries are either under the influence of western countries or have ties with Saudi Arabia, how would you influence those countries to unite with Shia's? And furthermore, most countries in the middle east  are currently involved in proxy war with Iran, and  do you honestly believe these countries will unite?

 

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First of all, the champions of Unity with Shai’ of others. Need to work on Shia of Ali(as) Unity.

Don’t mock, other Shia of Ali(as). If you do, you are working two track system,Which is not Natural. If you have a burning desire to say something, have an logical, intelligent, academic and Dispassionate discussion.

Do not flare up emotions by rhetoric. Nor use proxy items/names or issue to divide an conquer or solicit a groups to support your rhetoric.

Second, understand the difference between, ideological discussion verses name calling of people. Don’t mix to confuse the audience.

Third, No one is talking about naive, uninformed Humans. Nor anyone passing judgement of them.

Forth, We are only talking about learned, the people in the know. People who have displayed that they are aware of the facts. They deny it.

The monument Muslims, stop oppressing the Mercy that is sent to them, they will be liberated.

No one is oppressing the so called Muslims, countries, that are oppressing their citizens to stay in power.

The ideology of force. Take the reins of power by force is embedded in the DNA. It reares its ugly head in securing power over people, and provides justification of constant fear of losing power to others. Which implies dictatorship mentality. Ones in power need to use deadly force to subdue any resistance, or any ideology against them. This kind of System has an inherent problem of oppression, making deals with the enemy, selling any and everything to protect their rule. At the expense of religion, and their citizens.Best tactic, is to divide their citizens to keep them from forming an united front. 

This DNA is found in individuals, that deal with force not with academic arguments. Same ideology of staying is power at the government level, here ( institutions) means staying in control of the ideology. This means employing any and all means- ethics, morals, principles, deception, etc...do not matter,  attack( brand others Kafir, bidah), subdue and destroy the members of the opposite ideology. Goal is to have superiority and stay superior like the government system. Everything is a fair game, All is allowed in war of ideologies.

So, you have an overall system which trickles down to the academic institutions, group and individual level. "By any mean" is in the DNA of this ideology.

You are dealing with a system of force, to come to power, stay on power at the government, institutional, and  individual level. That is a foreign system to Islam/Human Nature. It stems from animal nature.

I will say it again, No one is talking about common, naive, regular People , we are taking and want to discuss the Ideology, 

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35 minutes ago, power said:

Most Sunnis countries are either under the influence of western countries or have ties with Saudi Arabia, how would you influence those countries to unite with Shia's? And furthermore, most countries in the middle east  are currently involved in proxy war with Iran, and  do you honestly believe these countries will unite?

 

Mr.Till 1979 even Iran too was under western control. 

Today Iraq is also partially under western control. To be United we need learn to agree on difference than fight over it. And help each other in getting out of trap of western traps. 

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3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

In Quran Allah says to prophet (pbuh) that there is no need to harm yourself for guidance of people it's just needs that you transfer& announce the word of Allah to people by forcing people don't accept anything but we must stop spreading false word & act from unbelievers &extremists& hypocrites 

Mr.The disunity is not usually because of difference in sects. But because of hatred and ignorance .why there is even disunity among Shias also. Not because of difference of sect but ignorance from teaching of Ahlul-Bayt as and quran. 

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Remember we are on the internet. So, its a Virtual world. You do not know who these screen names are who are looking to divide the Shia's of Ali(as). Shia' fo Ali(as) need to demand simple terms and proper definition of old terminology utilized, and proper context. Concepts are clear, so you do not see issue addressed at a conceptual level and only see a lot of technical stuff. That should be a red flag. 

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1 hour ago, power said:

Most Sunnis countries are either under the influence of western countries or have ties with Saudi Arabia, how would you influence those countries to unite with Shia's? And furthermore, most countries in the middle east  are currently involved in proxy war with Iran, and  do you honestly believe these countries will unite?

 

Lebanon, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Turkey (new comer), Iraq and Iran are under one shelter now. Qatar and Kuwait are too showing interest in Unity and are marching ahead to go against Saudi Arabia.

Palestine is the common cause. Defeating Israel and US is the common cause. Be optimistic. See through the real lenses. Collaboration is actually happening. 

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23 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Remember we are on the internet. So, its a Virtual world. You do not know who these screen names are who are looking to divide the Shia's of Ali(as). Shia' fo Ali(as) need to demand simple terms and proper definition of old terminology utilized, and proper context. Concepts are clear, so you do not see issue addressed at a conceptual level and only see a lot of technical stuff. That should be a red flag. 

I completely disassociate myself with the likes of Mujtaba Shirazi and his son in law Yasir and his co.

He is a source of fitnah and is condemned by most of genuine Marajes.

These deviants are not Shia of Ali. I don't say this. Maraje say this.

The only one who doesn't speaks up on this issue is the Silent Ayatullah - Sadiq Shirazi, Whose own brother is involved in this fitnah.

MI6 Agents! Puppets!

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